Lee Trevino - Part 2 (The 1968 U.S. Open at Oak Hill)

World Golf Hall of Fame member Lee Trevino takes us back to three very important U.S. Opens in his career, the 1966 Open at Olympic Club for which he qualified and won $600 for a 54th place finish, the 1967 event at Baltusrol where a 5th place showing earned him $6,000 and playing privileges for the rest of that season, and the 1968 U.S. Open at Oak Hill where Lee won his first major and becoming the first winner ever to score in the 60's in each of his four rounds. Interspersed throughout are stories that are vintage Trevino including three putter tales and examples of how generous he was in helping his friends" on tour. Lee Trevino continues his incredible life story, "FORE the Good of the Game."

Transcript

Mike Gonzalez 0:16

Let's go back to that 1967 US top of Volta scroll because as you alluded to in terms of the opportunities it gave you, it was a big deal at the time for you, wasn't it? It really opened up a lot of doors.

Lee Trevino 0:30

I don't know if I'd have ever made the tour. I mean, think about it. It split, what, a year and 18 months later, it split. And I had worked extremely hard. A lot of people don't really realize to be a class A professional how difficult it is. I did four years of apprenticeship, as you well know, under a Class A professional, and just to be a junior A. And then I had to go to a two-week seminar at the school in Chicago. I flew to Chicago for two weeks and did the whole thing there. And then I came back, and then you apply for your class A professional, and that would get you to play on the tour. When they split 1969 or whenever they were having this problem. Yeah, 69, uh, I was the I was the lone guy that stuck with the PGA. I'd worked too hard for this thing. This was my whole career. I didn't know if I was gonna play professional, huh? So I I didn't budge. I didn't budge, and it worked out. Uh the uh but uh it opened up everything. It opened up everything, and then and then and then it pushed me. I never really bel I never thought I really belonged, though. I I I I always felt like an outsider, you know, where I came from, how I got there. Uh it wasn't easy. I I was kind of a loner, you know. It wasn't nothing for me to play 18 holes. Um go out and go to the driving range and hit balls until almost dark. Go to the VQ and get some ice cream and a hamburger and a dyed soda, and then I would go look for a lighted driving range and I'd hit balls at night. I remember I remember going, uh, you know, I'd find a driving range and I'd hit balls. I hit, you know, they're talking about Vijay Singh hitting golf balls. VJ Singh hadn't hit any balls. I've hit millions and millions of those things. That's amazing. That's that's what I did. I did. I did, I wore my confidence on my shoulder. I got my confidence from working. If I put in the time and I worked at it, then I knew I didn't care who I was playing. I was playing the golf course anyway. I never played an individual. I never, when I played with Nicholas, I didn't say, I'm gonna go out there and beat this guy to death. No, I didn't never do that. I I went out there, I looked at the golf course, I'd played the ProM, I played two practice rounds. I knew what I could do with it. And I knew what it was gonna take. I will tell you this about Jack. Jack could tell you within a stroke of what was gonna win that tournament. Uh he was just absolutely the best at it. That's why all the majors that he won, notice how he'd never take the lead. He'd be three or four shots back and he'd say, ah, they'll come back. And they generally did. They all they'll come back.

Bruce Devlin 3:38

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 3:38

You know, the hardest thing in the world about a major like a U.S. Open, let me tell you, not Augusta, but a U.S. Open. And Bruce, I think, uh will endorse this. The hardest thing about playing a U.S. Open is when you put the ball in the ground on a T and you grab that driver, in the back of your mind, on your mind, you know that if you miss that fairway, chances are it's a bogey or a double bogey. There's a tremendous amount of pressure on the driver.

Bruce Devlin 4:10

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 4:10

I mean, a tremendous amount. All the pressure, in my opinion, on a U.S. Open is that driver. Uh, I mean, it's uh you've got to put the ball in the fairway because if if that and and they and we used to be wider than they are now. We used to be 30 yards wide. Now they're 18 and 20. I mean, it's it's really getting the ball goes straighter too, though, now.

Bruce Devlin 4:34

Yeah, you can't curve it as much as well.

Lee Trevino 4:37

You can't curve it as much. You know.

Mike Gonzalez 4:39

So but uh guys, why don't you rate this on a scale of zero to a hundred percent? Uh different technology that you guys played with, very, very small sweet spot. You didn't want to miss the middle of the club face. What percent effort were you guys putting into your T-balls compared to today?

Lee Trevino 4:58

Oh my. On a U.S. Open. Uh on a U.S. open? Oh god, 85% was it.

Bruce Devlin 5:04

I agree.

Lee Trevino 5:04

You could you had to hit them. Uh today? No. Tiger changed it all. Tiger changed everything. They asked Tiger, Tiger was hitting the ball 350. And they're saying, well, you don't hit it straight. He says, I don't care.

Bruce Devlin 5:20

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 5:20

If I can hit the ball 350 and find it, he says, I'll manage it from there.

Bruce Devlin 5:24

Give me a wedge.

Lee Trevino 5:26

Yes, you don't you you have to understand if you're watching today's golf and you watch these guys coming out of the rough from 120 yards, and they've got grass that is eight inches high, they're backing the ball up. Now, how do you back a ball up out of eight inch grass? Yeah. In other words, to a green. And you know what that is? That's speed. That's speed. They're so fast that that grass doesn't slow them down a bit. In other words, and they can still spin the ball, you see. And that's what Tiger did. Now, now Bryson has come along and he's gone along, but but you you you can't swing that hard. The body was not meant for you to swing that hard.

Bruce Devlin 6:10

No.

Lee Trevino 6:10

Eventually, that's gonna be the problem, I think, with this generation. My opinion, my opinion only, is what's happening, these kids are swinging so hard that their longevity is gonna be cut in half. They're not gonna be around as long because the wrist is gonna give, you know, uh they're gonna, the back. I I still, uh I'm still uh uh I I watched, I saw a picture this morning in the newspaper of Jordan. It's in the newspaper, you look at it. Jordan swinging, Jordan falls over on his left ankle when he hits a shot, especially with the driver. And I I just, you know, I I hope he tapes it because you know someday he's gonna hurt that ankle. Yeah, yeah, you know, he he really goes over on the left on it. And those ligaments can only take so much of that. Yeah. But uh Bryson, exactly what had happened to him. I said, his hands, his wrist is gonna have a problem. You can't hit the ground that fast, you know.

Bruce Devlin 7:13

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 7:13

That was like Tiger's knee. I made that, I told him, I said, you can't swing that fast. What's stopping the upper body speed is the left knee.

Intro Music 7:24

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 7:25

That's like going to a red light at 80 miles an hour and you keep slamming on the brakes. They're not gonna last long. And he's had four operations on that. He's changed his swing, and I think he's a better ball striker now. You know, Tiger. Yeah, he hits it really well now. Yeah, changed it.

Mike Gonzalez 7:43

Yeah. I watched him uh uh coming away from the press interviews after his final round Augusta this year and then walk up into the clubhouse, and he almost needed help up the stairs. You could tell he really gutted it out.

Lee Trevino 7:55

Yeah, it it I I I was with him at the Father Sun and Charlie, he brought Charlie down because he wanted me to hit a few shots for Charlie, and my son Daniel and I were hitting balls on the inn. And that was awfully nice of him. He just he got Charlie and he walked down to the inn, and all the cameras are down there, but they're at a distance, right? And they can't hear what we're talking about. They're going nuts, they're going crazy. And so he's he's saying, fate one for me, do this, do that. And I was hitting all these little shots, and he was showing Charlie what I was doing. And uh I looked at him and I in a very I didn't I didn't talk very loud like I usually do. I said, What are you uh gonna play the masters? He said, I'm not ready yet. He said, I'm not ready yet. I said, I told everybody, you're gonna be there, you'll be there. He said, I'll tell you what, Lee. He said, It all depends, because they timed his ball speed at the father son and his club head speed, and it was tour speed. He was hitting the ball there tour speed at the father's son in December.

Mike Gonzalez 9:05

Really?

Lee Trevino 9:05

So that's why, yes, so that's when I said, you know, he's probably gonna play at Augusta. But he said to me, he said, I don't know if I can walk it. He said, It's gonna be the walk. It's hard to walk. The hardest one.

Bruce Devlin 9:21

Yeah, yeah.

Lee Trevino 9:22

And he says, he says, I want to see if I can walk it. So you know, you know that that son of a gun uh went up to the meadows there at the Hope Sound, and you know he probably walked 36 holes a day. Uh yeah, that's Tiger. Yeah, you know, Tiger, if you tell him he can't do something, let me tell you he'll stay up till midnight. He'll he'll get it. He'll get it. That's just the way he is. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 9:47

I'd I'd never count him out at the old course this year.

Lee Trevino 9:51

No, yeah, but when he the last time he won there, he never hit a bunker.

Bruce Devlin 9:55

Yeah, that's amazing.

Lee Trevino 9:57

That's amazing.

Bruce Devlin 9:58

It is amazing.

Lee Trevino 9:58

I mean uh I mean it's it's uh unbelievable. Yeah, that's what that golf course is all about, the old course, those bunkers. Yep, yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 10:07

Yeah. Let's go back to 1968. We talked about your first two opens, and of course 67 really opened it up for you. Uh but 68 was sort of the icing on the cake because you come up to uh Oak Hill and uh had a pretty good week. Why don't you tell us about what kind of mindset and and what kind of game you carried into that week up in Rochester?

Lee Trevino 10:28

My game was very good at the time. I had finished second-second going in there. Uh I blew the tournament in Houston. Uh uh I pushed a three-iron, missed the green to the right, and and I didn't get it up and down. I tied with Roberto DiVicenjo, and and Roberto ended up winning the tournament, a champion. And then I went down to Atlanta. We played Atlanta Country Club, Davis Love Seniors place.

Bruce Devlin 10:52

Right.

Lee Trevino 10:52

And I finished I finished second, believe it or not, to a guy by the name of Bob Lund, which I thought could really play. He was a hell of a player. Bob Lund. And I finished second to him. Then I took a week off. And I was driving up to Rochester. I had done something that I'd never done before. I did something that I'd never done before. I accepted housing from a gentleman that had six kids. I don't know, I'd lost my mind or whatever, but I kept turning him down. And and and he had a he had the youngest little girl was two. And she Susan, she's an attorney now, uh, in in Rochester. And the guy's name was Paul Kircher. And he was an old baseball player, pitcher with a Yankee Farm Club. He was an insurance broker. And he's German, married to an Italian lady. It was it was so I decided to stay there. He had no air conditioning. I almost died. And he takes me to the golf course. He belonged to Monroe. He took me back for it. I played four practice rounds with Doug Sanders. And I don't think I missed two fairways in the four practice rounds. And Doug Sanders says, if I can find a bookmaker, he says, I'm gonna bet on you. And I said, Oh, don't worry about that. But Yancey was playing extremely well there, and uh I I uh again, a lot of rough. A lot of rough. And uh one of the things that stands out in my mind on that tournament more than anything is I'm playing the seventh hole. And I hit my T-ball down there. No one's walking on the left side, the gallery's on the right side. It's up against the street there, the seventh hole. Yeah, and this guy keeps screaming at me from across the road. So you know me being feisty. I got Big Herman with me anyway. So I said to him, I said, I said, You got a problem? And he said something else, and so I start walking towards him. And Daniel says, Lee, Lee, Lee, slow down. I said, What is it? I said, I'm gonna see what the hell this guy wants. He said, Do you know who that is? I said, I have no idea. He said, That's Carmen Basilio.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

One of the greatest metal weights ever, right? I said, Hey, baby, how you doing? I'm hugging him and said, I said, Oh my friend. God, huh?

Lee Trevino 13:32

I think that relaxed me more than anything, you know. But uh I drove the ball really well there. I really drove the ball. I I didn't finish like I wanted to. Uh, as like I told Bruce, I had a lot of cotton in my mouth. I remember missing the fairway on 16. And I I hit a seven mine in the shot of the green that chipped it up about eight feet, seven feet, and I made the putt. I was putting with a uh I was putting with a uh blade putter. I was playing it with a Tommy Armour uh 3852 blade. Uh guy gave it to me here. I have a hell of a story. I have three putters, stories with the putters, and 17 was a it was a very difficult hole for me. You had to hit it in an opening up there and then it 90 degree dog leg right. I've never seen a hole 90 degree dog leg right. And I hit driver three wood shard of the green, I wedged it up about four inches. Now I got a but I got a four or five shot lead going to 18, four shots, I think. And I looked over at Kevin Quinn, which was my caddy, and I said, Kevin, I said, is there any out of bounds here? He said, Nope. So naturally, I aimed down the left rough, and I got a double cross. It didn't fade. So I'm in this tall rough. So my caddy says to me, just like a good caddy would say, he'd say, Listen, you got a four-shot lead. He said, Take this wedge, just put it out in the valley. And you know what I said to him? I said, Kevin, I'm gonna win this tournament. And I'm not gonna, I I'm not, I'm not gonna want people saying you laid up. You won the tournament, but you laid up. I said, I'm not doing that. I said, give me that six iron. Well, I laid the side over it. Remember, I'm flat, I laid the side over it, it didn't, it didn't go 80 yards. I'm still in the hay. So I walked up there and I grabbed a pitching wedge and I took a mighty swing, and guess where the ball goes? Two feet from the hole. And I made the putt.

Bruce Devlin 15:32

Amazing.

Lee Trevino 15:33

That's where I met Arnold Palmer.

Bruce Devlin 15:34

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 15:35

I had never met Arnold Palmer before. Uh they wanted Arnold Palmer, television wanted Arnold Palmer to play in the last group, even though Arnie was supposed to have played almost first. And television wanted to see Arnold Palmer. And they got an amateur by the name of Jack Lewis that had missed the cut. And they got Jack Lewis to play with Arnie behind us. They came and asked me and and Yancey if it was okay. I said, it's all right with me. And I remember sending a scorecard in the scoring tent just off the thing. We were signing a scorecard, and Arnie comes over and sticks his hand out, as gracious as he is, and he stuck his hand and said, Good going, my boy. He said, You played really well. I said, Thank you, sir. I almost died when I saw him, you know. We we we had the presentations on the green just a real short time. No, no, nothing, and the press tent was in the parking lot behind the green there, right up on the hill. And the parking lot, and and it was uh uh it was um uh a funeral tent and it takes two parking spaces. And at that time it was uh you remember uh the the uh there was no press, you know, there was uh UPI and AP, and they had two guys, one camera in there, and all of a sudden uh you know they asked me five minutes questions, and that was it. So my buddies and I and everybody, we went down to the El Sombrero, and that thing. Margaritas with margaritas. We went to the El Sombrero. But what was so funny about being there is uh is I shot, I believe it was 69 the first round. Yeah, 69. I went 69, 68, 69, 69, I think.

Bruce Devlin 17:22

That's right.

Lee Trevino 17:23

So I went I went 60, I shot 69 in the first round. They had a putting green back there in the back. And people walked everywhere, everywhere. And I I'd be like there putting on the putting green, sending a golf cart. Not one person ever stopped. In other words, to say hello or autograph or nothing, you know. And I did it every day. So I shoot 69, okay, then I shoot 68, then I'm back over there again, and now I got more people coming over, and then and then uh and then and then I shot 69 again, 69. I win the open, and uh it's been crazy ever since. But uh yeah, I it was a it was a that's a hell of a golf course. I I thought I thought they ruined it because I think they put it back the way it was. They came in there and they redid, I think it was six. Uh they redid the part three, uh, number five or four. I played with Beaman the first round. We didn't find his ball in the bunker. You imagine that?

Bruce Devlin 18:19

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 18:19

His ball plugged, his ball plugged in that bunker on that part three, which I don't remember if it was five or something. We didn't find it. And they redid that one. In fact, they took that one out and uh they did another part three. Remember, they had three, the next time we went there, they had like three hole-in-wands in one bay on that hole.

Bruce Devlin 18:37

That's right. Yeah, yeah.

Lee Trevino 18:39

Yeah. They put a valley in the middle of it and they put the pin in the middle of the valley. Everybody, the ball ran you know in there. Yeah. But I I heard that they had put the course back. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 18:51

It was a it was a great win with four rounds in the 60s. That was a first. And that wasn't going to be duplicated again for another 25 years when Lee James did Baltashroll.

Lee Trevino 19:01

But uh another Lee, another Lee, right.

Mike Gonzalez 19:04

Bruce, you didn't do too bad that week. You were I think you were T3 after two rounds. Tied for night. Tied for nine, yeah.

Bruce Devlin 19:12

I was wondering who this Mexican kids who is just whooping everybody and shooting in the 60s all the time, but it didn't take long to find out who he was after.

Mike Gonzalez 19:26

Well, I've got his uh I've got his payday colors I'm wearing on today, and I think that's what Lee. I think I think uh Curtis Strange wore red, didn't he, when he won it at Oak Kill.

Lee Trevino 19:36

He did, he did. I I told him, I said, those are bullfighter colors, baby. This is uh this is really good. That's what I that's what I always talked about. Uh uh what's a young man that wears orange on Sunday? Uh Ricky Fowler. Ricky Fowler, yeah. I said, you can't win wearing orange, man. You gotta come out there. Wear black. You know, Mickelson wore black every day. You know what I'm saying? The bad man. The bad man.

Bruce Devlin 20:02

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 20:02

Yeah. Powder blue, powder blue, and orange is not gonna get it on Sunday. No.

Mike Gonzalez 20:08

You gotta wear a power color.

Lee Trevino 20:11

You gotta wear a power color. That's right. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 20:13

So uh this one must have changed your life.

Lee Trevino 20:20

Well, you know, again, um I I I know this sounds kind of crazy, uh, but uh, and Bruce will tell you the same thing. Uh the the what I found out later in life, I did not know then, that eventually they were gonna gauge you and your career by majors. By majors. By majors, and that's the way it is. Well, one of the greatest compliments in the world to me, and people think that you know it's it's it's it's it's kind of bad when they say it, is when a guy calls me a has been. That's great. Because if you were not a was, you cannot be a has been. When a guy says to me, he says, when he guys says to me, I said, How are you playing? He said, Oh hell, I'm a has-been. I said, What the hell did you win? Yeah, did you win anything? He said, Well, I won a couple. No, no, no. You you were never a a was. I said, You gotta be a was to be a has been. That's the whole thing. But it it it it started it. Um I I remember uh was it I don't remember if it was Hagen or Sarzen or somebody had said that you can win one U.S. Open, but it takes a hell of a player to win two. Yeah, this is uh this is what the this is what I heard. I mean, I don't know if it's true or not. But I I never paid much attention to it. You know, I I had an old pro here uh uh and he gave me a he said to me we're playing at Cedar Crest. His name was Dennis Lavender. He was a good friend of Mr. Hogan. And he he was the pro out there. He's a hell of a player. The last time I played him, he was already almost 70. I shot 29 on the back nine, gospel truth, and he tied me. We both shot 29 on the back nine. And so he had a little shop in the back shop. And he says to me, Call me Carranza. I don't know what the hell it means to this day. He said, Carranza? He said, Come in here. He said, Yes, sir. He said, I see you're going to the open up in Baldurstra. I said, Yes, sir. He said, Well, let me tell you about those greens up there. He said, That's a different grass up there you're going to play. He said, You're not playing Bermuda. He said, You put with that old heavy mallet, as Bruce said, that old heavy mallet, and you're going to get it. He said, Now you come on back here, I'm going to fix you a putter. So he fixed me this putter. And he fixed me that that blade putter with a reverse A. Remember the old Tommy Armour with a reverse A on it?

Bruce Devlin 22:51

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 22:52

And I win the tournament with it. I still have it. And he was right. He said, you know, you're going to need something a little bit lighter. These are going to be a little bit faster. And it's so funny you say that. Because now we go to the PGA in uh in 74. And we're going to Tanglewood. And so I rented this house from the lady. I'm taking my stuff upstairs, put it in the bedroom. And Albert Salinas was my manager at the time. He traveled with me. And I I I put my stuff up, and as I'm walking out, there's a door there that you can see through at the top of the garage where there's a storage, a lot of stuff. There's a set of golf clubs lying on the floor. And I can see this Arnold Palmer designed by Arnold Palmer. Putter sticking out there. At the time I was putting with an 8802.

Bruce Devlin 23:47

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 23:48

And Palmer's got that. He actually originally that was Palmer, the Palmer putter was before the 8802.

Bruce Devlin 23:54

Correct.

Lee Trevino 23:55

That was afterwards. When Palmer was with Wilson, he designed that putter.

Bruce Devlin 23:59

Yeah.

Lee Trevino 23:59

So I see it sticking out. And I pulled it out and I put it down. And I mean it was perfect. The lock, the group was original, uh, the lie. And the lady was coming over that evening, in other words, uh, for dinner. And I said to her, I said, uh, is that putter for sale? And she said, no. She says, my husband passed away six months ago, and I'm saving that for my son. I said, okay. And as we're having dinner, she says to me, You know, you're talking about that putter down there. I said, Yeah, she said, if you want to use it, she said, You're welcome to use it. I said, Really? I went out there the next day to practice round, and I hold everything. And so uh so she comes back, I'm using the putter, and I'm right there. Comes back Saturday night for dinner, third round coming up, playing on the last group. Hubert Green, Nicholas, and I. And she says to me, she says, I want to tell you something. She says, if you win the tournament, you can have the putter. I said, No, I don't want to take the no no, she says, if you win the tournament, you keep the putter. So I won the tournament, I still have it. And then, yeah, and I mean the putters are unbelievable. Now, now, Shoal Creek, same story. Three putters, three different stories. Daniel and my wife, Daniel's mom, my wife, in 1983, we go to the British Open. 8083, I think it was. And Sammy wins it. Couples finished second, or watching couples finished third. And I put it like a dog, and I was using a Tommy armor putter. Put it terrible. So now we go to the Dutch Open, and I hit 18 greens. 18 greens at 365. Claudia came back and she says to me, She said, I want to ask you a question. Who won the British, the open? I said, Semi. Punched with a ping, doesn't he? I said, Yeah. Who finished second? I said, Watson. He said, punched with a ping, doesn't he? And how about third? I said, couples. He punched with a ping, doesn't he? I said, yes, honey. She says, Don't you think it's time for you to get a ping? So she goes in the pro shop. Swear to God. She goes in the pro shop. She pays$55 for an A-blade. They didn't have an answer. Right. She still has the receipt. I saw it. She still has the receipt. So she she she brings me the putter. It's got nine or ten degrees aloft on it. It's so upright that it'd be illegal to punt with it. In other words, it doesn't have an angle. So I take it home, and as I'm walking in the room off the parking lot, they've got a little walkway, but it's got like a little carpet on it. So I take the putter in as hard as I can. I hit it heel, heel first. And the baby and it goes out perfect. Then I got to take the loft off. So I put it on the f on the ground and I jump up and down on it until I get the loft off of it. I shot 64 the next day. I made the cut. So then I go to Warwick Hills in 74 and 84 and I shoot 64. Yeah, on Friday, I think it was. And then I go to Schultz Creek and I walk it with that putter. Yeah. The one with that putter.

Mike Gonzalez 27:44

That's pretty cool.

Lee Trevino 27:45

Crazy.

Mike Gonzalez 27:45

You know what one thing I should mention, and Bruce will back me up on this, Lee. I mentioned before we've had about 41 interviews. I would say uh I'd be safe in saying that your name has come up in 41 interviews. In other words, you I don't know if you realize this, but uh, the the the fellows you played with hold you in such high regard. And it's not just because of your ability, but it's because of your kindness and generosity that you uh had shown to a number of them as they were coming up through the game. Let me just give you a couple of examples. They're both John Mahaffey examples that I'll ask you to comment on. The one was at Hazel Team, 1970, you guys are up there for the U.S. Open. He's an amateur. And he ties with Crush. Yeah, he ties with Crenshaw for Loam. And uh and you waited for him outside the scoring tent and then asked him if he was going to turn pro and basically told him what about his duck hook.

Lee Trevino 28:44

That yeah that was it wasn't gonna cut it, was it? Yeah, he had no that hook won't cut it. You know, Hogan went through the same thing. And he was a disciple, he was Hogan's disciple. And I said, My God, I said, Mr. Hogan should have told you this. I said, because his whole life, Ben was eating oranges off of trees, you know, back in the 30s because he had that Texas grip, you know, his right hand was way underneath. And uh so uh, you know, Henry Pickard, if I'm not mistaken, before the war, told Hogan, he says, I like you, you work hard, he says, but if you don't change that grip, you're not going anywhere. And Henry Pickard put his hands, this is what I heard, put his hands on the club to where Hogan could see his first knuckle on his right hand when he put it on there. And he had this hand up there where he could see it. Hogan was here, see, and he put his hand up here, and he said, Now you go home and learn to hit the ball like that. What happens is is is the that part of the thumb is actually touching almost the first finger here. And Mahaffey, Mahaffey had that much separation between the two hands. So also you have to be careful with the forearm. Where's the forearm pointing? You understand? If the forearm is pointing up, you understand, when you hit this ball, this forearm is gonna come down. You see that? It's gonna come down. I tried to tell a guy the other day, I said, when you try to hook a ball, how do you hook it? He said, Well, I put my right hand a little underneath and I pull my right foot back. I said, Why? I said, This is the stirring wheel. Why are you pulling this foot back? And I said, and why are you putting this hand here? I said, You're trying to hit a soft hook. I said, you know, I said, don't you ever remember when I told you that you can talk to a fade but a hook won't listen? I said, This is what happens to you. What happens is when you get this hand too far under, how are you gonna gauge how much you're gonna turn it? And you're moving this thing at a hundred and some uh at 110 miles an hour. Okay, so I told a guy, I said, let me tell you something, weaken your right hand. He said, What? I said, You what? You want to hit a soft? I said, weaken the right hand, put the right hand on top and then get aggressive with it. Now you can only move it that much more. And I said, You'll hit the softest hook in the world. The problem with people playing golf is they don't know how to play when it's a deceleration shot. Every shot's not you see, you don't hit every shot full.

Bruce Devlin 31:15

Correct.

Lee Trevino 31:16

There's no such thing as every shot full. Driver's full, three woods full, five iron's full. You know, well, once you start getting into the seven, the eight, the nine, and back in the wedges, these are different distances. What's gonna happen when you slow down if your hand is strong? It's gonna go over. You're gonna hit a pull hook, pull hook, pull hook. What you're trying to do with a short club is you're praying that it goes right. Then you can manipulate it. Everybody plays golf trying to keep the ball, good players, trying to keep the ball from going left. Okay? That's what you want. You know what I'm saying? How do you keep the ball? So you gotta fight it a little bit. You gotta fight it. You can't release, you gotta hold it. You know, Berger does it as good as anybody. Yeah, burger has got as close a swing to me as anybody. Yeah, he he rides it around. If you watch, when he hits the ball, after his club has gone by a foot, the back of his left hand is still parallel to target. Yeah, yeah. That's why I was so good. My club never got off target. Never got off target. You know, yeah. And I could hit soft shots. I could hit soft shots, you know, three-quarter shots. I had, you know, I carried 37 clubs. Most guys have 14. I had 37.

Mike Gonzalez 32:38

Well, Mahaffey, to finish that story, he he, you know, you took him out to the range and you taught him how to hit a fade. And what does he do? He goes to the NCAA the next week, plays that fade, and wins it.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 32:51

So his second story later in his career, he lost at the Tournament of Champions to Johnny Miller after bogeying 18. He got his ball up against the fringe, couldn't get it up and down. Miller makes a two-putt par and beats him. Again, you waited for him and basically showed him how to play that shot with a bellied wedge. You said you couldn't believe he hadn't learned that shot by then.

Lee Trevino 33:15

Yeah, I I couldn't believe. Uh you use a belly wedge, or you can use a hybrid now. Uh, Dave Hill was the one that actually started all this stuff. I watched him chipping one time with a three-wood. I said, what the hell is that? And that's what he did. Uh-huh. Yeah, but the bellied wedge it works extremely. What you have to be careful with the bellied wedge, though, is if the ball jumps up, you could hit it twice. You know, understand with a bellied wedge. Three wood won't happen because you you kind of stop it.

Bruce Devlin 33:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Lee Trevino 33:44

Um, I saw George Archer use the toe of his putter. You know, turn the toe of the putter in and hit it. But George Archer could hit it with with the handle and make putts. Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez 33:56

I I guess the point of those two stories, and I could tell you many more that you know, it was uh again, the the the generosity that these players appreciated that uh you didn't see them as a threat. You saw them as guys that you know were gonna work hard to get better.

Lee Trevino 34:10

Yes, yeah, and they were all these guys. Yeah, we were friends. We were, I mean, that's it. We were a frat. I mean, we were together, we'd do anything in the world for each other. Yeah you know, I that's exactly right. Yeah, we were friends. We hey listen, he uh I'm uh if he beats me, I go practice harder. Yeah, you know, I mean, come on. That's all I did. I just practiced a little bit harder. That's it.

Bruce Devlin 34:34

Let me ask you go ahead, Bruce.

Mike Gonzalez 34:36

Go ahead.

Bruce Devlin 34:37

No, I was just gonna say, Lee, you know, we uh uh Mike put out a little deal the other day on uh on our website to say that uh and and also on the uh uh historian golf historians about the fact that we were gonna interview you today. We've had over 70 people reply to his little posting, and there's 70 people that want to ask 70 questions. So I just I just won't look. Uh I know you I know you're tied up time-wise today because you got something that you need to do, but I just want to say to you that I hope that uh hope we get a chance to uh really talk about your fabulous career. Uh I mean everybody that's ever been around you knows what a great guy you are, but uh I hope we can get a chance to speak a little bit more later when you got a spare hour.

Lee Trevino 35:39

Okay, yeah, you just get in touch with uh with Daniel. Uh um I I uh I I do a lot of uh uh dinners and stuff and I tell stories, you know. I got a million stories. And uh I tell people, I said, yeah, sure, that's that's why I get the big dollars, baby, to do that. I have a blast. I have an absolute blast. They we we were doing uh uh we were down at uh in um at Bolero's and we were having a Q ⁇ A, and it's me and and uh and Watson and uh and Crenshaw. And uh they asked Crinshaw a question, and I I didn't understand it uh what he was talking. I he talked so soft I don't hear very well anyway. And then they asked Watson a question and he answered it real quick. And we've gotten together, there's 1100 people there, and there's nobody's getting any reaction. And so all of a sudden, uh the the MC Dick that runs the NBC Tower, he says to me, He said, uh, let me ask you a question. He says, uh, is it true that so-and-so, so-and-so and so? And I looked at him and I said, What do you want to hear? Some stories? He said, Yeah, let me hear that stuff. And I went into about six stories and I don't know noise. They were lying on the floor, boy. I've got them all on a piece of paper so I can remember them all.

Mike Gonzalez 37:08

Remember them all. Yeah, yeah.

Lee Trevino 37:10

Yeah. I may I may do a book. I'm I'm thinking about it, you know.

Mike Gonzalez 37:13

Well, you did a book, didn't you? Uh Supermax.

Lee Trevino 37:16

Well, that's an autobiography. I'm talking about just a golf of when I started the tour.

Mike Gonzalez 37:20

Yeah, yeah. You better get you better get going on that.

Lee Trevino 37:24

Yeah, before I before I die, let's write up again. Anyway, thanks, guys.

Mike Gonzalez 37:30

Yeah, it was a pleasure, pleasure having you, Lee.

Lee Trevino 37:34

Thank you, Mike.

Mike Gonzalez 37:36

Thank you for listening to another episode of For the Good of the Game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify, if you like what you hear, please subscribe. Spread the words.