You're listening to Connecting Minds, the student mental health by the Union of Students in Ireland. I'm your host, Sarah Hughes. Today, I'm delighted to welcome the CEO of Shine, Nicola Byrne. We're talking today about mental health stigma and the Green Ribbon Campaign. So thanks very much for joining us today, Nicola. I'm delighted to have you on.

Nicola Byrne (00:20)

delighted to be here thank you very much.

Sarah Hughes (00:23)

So as I said, we're currently in September which is Green Ribbon Month which is one of the primary campaigns of Shine. Would you like to kind of tell us a little bit about what it's all about and the meaning behind the green ribbon and that?

Nicola Byrne (00:35)

Yeah, I'll start out by telling you about Shine because a lot of people haven't heard of Shine. Shine is going since the 1970s. It's a mental health organization, a charity that was set up by a group of family members on the South Side of Dublin. And most of their relatives had schizophrenia. And if you think schizophrenia is not understood nowadays and quite stigmatized, it would have been really, really difficult to talk about it back in the 70s. So they set up Shine as Schizophrenia Ireland.

Sarah Hughes (00:42)

Wow.

Nicola Byrne (01:04)

and it grew and grew over the decades. We are quite unique in that we offer free services to people with lived experience of mental illness, but we also separately offer services to family members who are supporting people with mental illness. by family, we mean people who are their supporters. You don't need to be biologically related to someone. So the free frontline services and that's group work, one -to -one support. we have a support line that offers kind of brief interventions.

We also do work in the area of advocacy and research, but two of the programs that we work on on a national level, one is called Headline and the other is called See Change. I'll tell you about Headline first because See Change is the one I really want to talk to you about. So in Headline, we work with the national media and we monitor print media in this country and we kind of offer both a carrot and stick approach, working with getting better reporting around mental health and suicide in this country. So we have things like the Mental Health Media Awards, we offer fellowships to journalists and we also work to deliver training and support to students. We offer journalism students in this country free training on better and responsible reporting on these issues and also we go into broadcasters, journalists and we offer the same training.

See Change, which is the programme that you initially asked me about, is in its 13th year now. So, we have, there's kind of three parts to it. know, and really See Change is Ireland's national stigma reduction programme. And we know a couple of things about stigma, that there's different types of stigma. There's public stigma and there's self-stigma. Self-stigma is probably the hardest one to overcome. We do know from research that there's a number of ways of addressing stigma. So, we do know that the media has a big influence on what people think. So that's why we have our headline program. We also know that by changing the way people speak in the workplace and how people are managed in the workplace, stigma is reduced, sick leave rates go down, people have a better experience of work.

So in our See Change program, we actually offer a workplace program and it's a six step program where we help organizations to have a better conversation and manage people better experiencing mental illness. But we also help them to develop a mental health policy. And most people don't realise that, you know, in workplaces, often people are focused on when they talk about risk on slips, trips and falls. But psychosocial risk is as important a legal mandate for employers. and mental health is recognised as a disability, as a psychosocial disability.

And so we work with employers to create a better, because most of us spend a lot of time in the workplace. And even when you're in college, it's a workplace for some. I know it's a place to study for others, but it is a workplace. And so therefore, by working with the media and workplaces, we make a big difference. The other thing we know, and the Lancet did a big review of this recently, is that by hearing the voice of people with lived experience of mental illness, you actually decrease stigma because I mean, it makes it more human. People get the story firsthand. They understand that somebody is just not a label, but they're way more complex and more interesting than that. And it really does. It's the one. I think the one thing that makes a big difference in reducing stigma, but as part of our work in in reducing stigma and our see change program, we run every September the green ribbon program and in the green ribbon program.

We ask people to wear the green ribbon to support inclusion. The green ribbon offers a symbol of willingness to talk about your own experience of mental health and mental illness. And we know there's not a household in this country that isn't affected by it. So we know that if people talk about these issues more, recovery rates go up because people seek help earlier. They're willing to talk about the issues quicker, easier, feeling less stigmatized and more encouraged.

But also we know that suicide rates and the risk of suicide goes down. So the Green Ribbon Campaign, you'll see it throughout the country in the month of September. And we have ads on bus shelters with lots of different companies distributing our ribbons for free. So you should see them in a number of retail stores throughout the country. A lot of staff wearing them as well. A lot of corporate organizations get behind it and run staff events in the month of September because well -being is an important HR focus. And so we work in partnership with a lot of different companies up and down the country. And we also work closely with the HSE and health and social care providers. So big organizations and small ones work with us. And so in the month of September, you'll see lots of different events going on. We're working, we started out early this year because EP got brought forward this year. So September is feeling very long for me at this stage.

But we really start our work with this year, we started with Electric Picnic and we introduced temporary tattoos on a trial basis at Electric Picnic and they were a great success. We gave out thousands of ribbons and wristbands at Electric Picnic. And all along, we had a queue of people that both had experienced mental health challenges and engaged with mental health services or had experienced maybe the loss of a friend or family member. And also we had a lot of staff who work in mental health services at Electric Picnic come up and talk to us about their experiences and what they do to promote the green ribbon in the area. So EP is really where it started for us this year. And then we went on and we've had a big launch. This year we used CHQ headquarters in Dublin. And it was really exciting because we're really pushing for the conversation.

In the past we used the phrase campaign, whereas this year we're calling it a social movement. Because we think that if Ireland is going to grow and change in the way we hold our conversations about mental health, it can't be seen as another campaign. It has to be a social movement where people get behind it, you've champions, and that really we're growing a society where physical health has parity with mental health and people are comfortable talking about a broken ankle in the same way they might talk about the fact that they postnatal depression or that they were diagnosed with generalised anxiety disorder or any other challenges that people might experience.

Sarah Hughes (08:04)

Yeah, I mean the work that you guys do, like you outlined it there, it's such a wide breadth of work, but you touch on so many of the most important key issues when we're trying to combat mental ill health in this country. And I think one of the bits that I love the best is this idea of having peers with lived experience as such a fundamental part of your organization and through your ambassador program. think that's just fantastic.

Nicola Byrne (08:28)

Yeah, also are groups are run by people with lived experience as well. So if you're a family member and you go to a group that's aimed at family members, you will meet someone who's facilitating the group. And in general, they will have experience of dealing with the family member. And the same with our lived experience groups. And that goes across the board. We've taken an attitude that anybody can attend our services at any stage in their life.

They can we offer them a kind of a pathway where internally we have panels of people who have experience. And so we offer those panels to academics for research. We offer them to journalists for to tell their story. We offer them to service providers who are planning services. And then you can go from. So that's called the voice platform. We have another level that we have that we've developed in partnership with the Department of Health.

And we actually supply a group of family members and people with lived experience to sit at the core of national mental health policy. So Ireland's mental health policy, the physical policy is called slainte care and the mental health policy is called sharing the vision. And sharing the vision is really interesting because it has a hundred actions in it. And at the heart of implementing the sharing the vision is a group called the National Implementation Monitoring Committee. So there's a real understanding these days about the importance of not just, you know, launching a policy, you know, saying this is great, we have a policy now. Now there's a lot of work put in the background in delivering using implementation science. And that field is really used to understand how we can best implement our policies in Ireland. So the National Implementation Monitoring Committee is a group of people that have expertise in mental health.

But within that, the NIMIC is a group of people that we host in shine and they are family members, supporters and people who have lived experience. So all of the actions and activities of the implementation around our national mental health policy actually has at the heart of it, a group of people who have experienced it to really look at whether an action has been truly implemented. Is it, you know, has it been done in a way that sits well and makes sense and it's not tokenistic? So we have the reference group. We also have employees who have their own lived experience. And that's important to us. And we've people who run our groups. So we've lots of layers to it. And we just offer an opportunity where anyone and everyone can function and feel heard and their voice heard in a way that is where they're comfortable at. You can be anyone you want to be. And that's our message. And your voice is equally important.

But often people feel that they can only have capacity to do this amount. Whereas we would say to them, can, say you go through a phase where we've noticed that people, when they start to do really well and they're back in the world of work and they're functioning really well, that actually their ability to contribute gets lessened. And so we allow for ebb and flow in people and how they engage. But really what we want to do is put the voice of people with lived experience at the centre of service delivery, policy making and research.

Sarah Hughes (11:59)

Yeah, and I think one thing that kind of runs through every element of all that you guys do in shine from the headline program to like that engaging with the policymakers and with the HSE and that right down to the ambassadors program is that sort of it's all conversations and it's something I've heard like I've heard Minister Mary Butler say it, I've heard people such as John Meehan from the National Office of Suicide Prevention say it, that suicide prevention is everyone's business and I think there's a really important facet when we talk about conversations around mental health that while it's really important for people who are struggling with their mental health to have their voice in that, they only get to have that voice if everybody else gives them the space to have that voice, if they ask the questions, if they're open to the conversations. This idea of suicide prevention is everybody's business, not just the person who's struggling themselves.

Nicola Byrne (12:53)

Yeah, and you often hear Minister Butler say there's no physical health without mental health. And, you know, that until we have parity in conversation, treatment, policymaking and legislation with physical health, we've not quite got there. know, Shine's work is really about helping people live their best lives, but also at the same time, encouraging a compassionate country where people are unable to do that.

And that means really our success would be having a country where there is no stigma associated with mental health or mental illness. You know, when you talk about the work around suicide prevention and that, I think it's really important that we have real conversations. But it's also very important that we don't have conversations just for the sake of it. My worst fear is that people are asked for their opinion and then it's put in a document and put on a shelf. So, I think there's an ethical side to how we engage with people and how we bring about a better treatment for everybody. It has to be that we engage with people where they're treated in a balanced, a fair and honest way, but also they're respected and their opinion, if an opinion is given that something is done about it, that it just isn't just a listening exercise and it goes nowhere. They, you know, I've been in a lot around around a long time working in mental health. I'm a social worker by background. And I've done a lot of research in the past into this issue. And, know, it's really, really important that when we we do listen, it's it's with the the the the agenda of making a real change. And if not, you know, asking people for their opinion is a waste of time and it does more harm than good. And our work is really embedded in the approach of, you know, do no harm, but actually strive to make the whole country a better place for somebody who's experiencing mental health challenges.

Sarah Hughes (15:05)

That's a really good point. And I think, you know, there are many people who might be listening to this podcast who are, you know, they're not maybe sure how to have conversations in that meaningful way, or maybe they're not sure what, like they know the concept of what stigma is, but not how that might apply if, you know, are they, you know, stigmatizing somebody maybe in their peer circle without really realizing it? Could you give maybe some examples or some advice to students as to how to avoid that?

Nicola Byrne (15:17)

Yeah, so similar to like I said, Mary Butler says a lot and the you know, relationship between physical health and mental health. There's three words I would say a lot and that's watch your language. So, we use language a lot and we have conversations often we don't realize the impact we have on others. you know, when you're sitting down, having a cup of coffee and a cup of tea in a group, you know, sometimes you might be talking about stuff and you might say, my day's been a bit crazy or, you know, like I, I redid my study timetable because I'm a bit OCD and and or, you know, you know, I was a bit a bit of a psycho the other day and I'm sorry. that language, even though it's part of, you know, I can see it on YouTube channels and stuff like that.

It's very much part of the current lexicon. And it's something that we need to be very, very mindful of, because, you know, in my previous experience, I treated a lot of people who experienced OCD. I used to specialise in delivering cognitive behaviour for young people with OCD. And, you know, OCD, if you have OCD, it's a very, very difficult label to live with, can wax and wane like the sea. But when it's in, when it's really, really taken over your thoughts and your emotions, it can mean that it really affects your ability to function on a daily basis.

So by saying you're a bit OCD really undermines someone that has to experience the difficult challenges that come with something like that. To use the phrase psycho is really, really stigmatizing, but also, you know, to refer to your day as being nuts. I can see it even in the language that's up on social media at the moment. You're looking at X and I've noticed it gets worse, especially around the political debates in the States. Really stigmatizing language comes out and we've no control over the international narrative on this issue. What we can do is look to our own and, you know, our media is really good at how they would perform around their, they have guidelines they have to adhere to. And in general, we find they're very good at staying within the guidelines and being respectful and really considerate in the language that they use. What's more of a worry is sometimes local radio stations, people being interviewed, podcasts, things like this. you know, people just coming on that maybe have their own experience and they wouldn't necessarily have a professional background in media often will say stuff that is quite stigmatizing.

So, we would say to people the other phrase that I still hear used on radio interviews, especially I've noticed it, is that somebody committed suicide. Suicide is not a crime. so, it's really important that we just reframe that because there's a lot of pain associated and hurt associated with suicide. And to reframe that and say that somebody died by suicide or I've lost someone to suicide is a much more helpful turn of phrase and less stigmatising. You know when you talk about stigma, you know, when I said that there's public stigma and self-stigma, there's a lot of judgement contained in and as a culture, we're quite good at judgement. and I think that the self-stigma is a really important issue that we need to look at.

We can put labels on ourself and put limits on ourself and say things that, you know, I couldn't go for that job or that project or I couldn't apply for that award or because they know X about me or I'm too whatever. and, you know, I've said at many a presentation in the last while that inside our heads, the best way I can describe it is like a cheerleader. So we all have our own little cheerleaders. And for many people, their cheerleader is worse than a bully and says awful things to them, really hurtful things that limit them, that limit their ability to reach out and do whatever they want to do. you know, and can say things like you shouldn't do that or don't wear that or don't say that because nobody likes you or, you know, you're not like a supermodel or whatever. If you've got a cheerleader going on like that in your head, it's time to sack that cheerleader because that's where the self-stigma comes from. That's where the judgment comes from. And that's where the limitations come from. I think it's important for people to realise that you can set your own boundaries around how you describe yourself, how and what you can achieve in life, you know. And it's really important to talk to people about how you're feeling. The conversations are key. The green ribbon, you know, sometimes when you look at the green ribbon, I know people go, what's that about or whatever?

But if you can see that as a beacon of somebody saying, I'm open to having these conversations. And the other thing I've noticed, Sarah, and you touched on it there, is people get anxious about talking about mental health and mental illness. And they might be afraid to cause upset to somebody or they might make somebody worse. And the HSE has a lot of great free resources on their website, yourmentalhealth.ie and a lot of the NGOs out there, including ourselves, have lots of different tools and resources on our websites. But yourmentalhealth.ie, you have a free mental health plan that you can do. It was only launched a little while back and it's worth it. I've done it up for myself. I find it really helpful. It gives you kind of some tips and tricks for where you're at and on the day that's in it. And it also on your mental health and on the HSE websites you'll see information on lots of different training. If you're worried about talking to somebody that you feel, ⁓ you don't even want to, you know, you might have a friend that's really down and you don't know whether they're at risk of doing something to harm themselves. And how do I broach that subject without actually feeling like I've put it into their mind to do something and then feeling responsible?

There's a number of short free courses available through the National Office for Suicide Prevention and the HSE websites, go online and check them out and google them. But it's never been my experience, and the research tells us that asking someone, are they OK, makes them worse. It's not, that's not the case. And asking someone, have they ever considered suicide does not make them consider suicide. If somebody is in that space, they've already had the thoughts and you will be able to find out from them, you know, where they're at. Is it just that they're saying life is so bad right now that it doesn't, it's not, I don't feel like it's worth living as opposed to somebody who maybe has a plan and has been considering it for a while. And, you know, they're different conversations. One is trying to tell you the weight of the burden that somebody feels. And that's where you need to sit with them and go, you know, OK, you can hear in the headlines, the likes of mental health services, big waiting lists and all of that.

Pick up the phone, ring the likes of Shine. Our website is shine.ie. Ring, there's like there's lots of different other organisations out there. There's text organisations that you can text. I know an awful lot of young people aren't so comfortable with the holding the phone. I sound like a really old lady saying that now. But, you know, I'm old enough to have a teenager and I know that he prefers texting and he's not comfortable holding a phone or talking on phone. there is, you know, SpunOut, have a great tech service. There's a number of different organizations. The Samaritans are out there. Pieta is there to talk to and ourselves. And at the same time, if somebody is telling you they need help, you can also get them to go to their GP. You know, there's some, you know, it's really important to know that there's a number of touch points where you can help for people.

You're not going to be stuck on your own with this. And probably the worst thing that can happen that somebody gets so bad that they feel like they need to end up in A&E. A&E is not where you want to end up because it's messy. I've never had a comfortable trip to A&E, whether it's for, you know, whether you've broken a bone or whatever. It's not pleasant. If you're feeling really, really that you're in distress and you need help, try and get help before you need to get to A&E. And there is lots of different opportunities out there. And there's lots of local services, small local counselling services, know, there's family resource centres, there's so much out there that people can actually and within student counselling services are brilliant. I availed of them when I was a student. I'm a firm believer in availing of counselling services.

Many people have lots of different jobs where actually there's employee assistance, where you get free counselling. And I've availed of that. I would recommend it, firm believer in that. There's nothing like going to counselling and being able to talk about, talk through your issues. And it's like, you know, I found it always, you know, in friendship, you have to be polite. say, if you and I go for a cup of coffee, you'll ask me how I am. I'll tell you. But I then feel the social burden to ask you how you are. Whereas if you're going for counselling, you can be really selfish, and you don't have to really care about what's going on in the counsellor or psychotherapist's life. So, it is really important that we avail. There's lots of free things out there that we can avail of to support ourselves and to get support for others.

Sarah Hughes (25:57)

I think there's two really key takeaways that I'm taking away there. And the first one is that, yeah, it can be scary and, you know, anxiety provoking to try and have this conversation. But, you know, and we don't want the idea of, you know, somebody accidentally saying a stigmatizing phrase or something to stop them from trying to have a conversation with their friend. Like it's it's just part of the vernacular. Yes, sometimes it does slip out, but it's more about becoming more aware of that and kind of catching it before it happens.

Nicola Byrne (26:15)

Yeah.

Sarah Hughes (26:25)

But that's not a reason in and of itself to not ask your friends how they're doing or to check in with somebody that you notice is struggling. And I think the other part then is that, you really, you don't need to wait until you're at crisis level to reach out for help. In fact, the earlier you reach out, the sooner things can start to get better for you. But it can be a really isolating place. Like mental illness, part of the reason why stigma, self-stigma comes about is because

Nicola Byrne (26:39)

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Sarah Hughes (26:52)

it is largely unseen, like it all happens unseen in your mind. like, as you say, the cheerleader is telling you all kinds of awful lies. sometimes all, you know, I'm coming from the perspective of a friend who's noticing that somebody's, you know, maybe not themselves. Sometimes all it takes is somebody giving them permission to say all of it out loud. That can be so freeing and so helpful and just start them on their journey to recovery as well. Like that initial, how are you? And really meaning it can really make such a difference.

Nicola Byrne (27:12)

Yes, yes. And I often say when I'm delivering talks, it's been saying this for years, right? But if you have any group of friends or community, say me and my neighbours all run out our hall door right now and form a circle outside and everybody dumped all their problems into the middle of the circle and you saw all the problems that were going on for everybody, you'd more than likely run back in and grab your own problems back. You know, and I think that is such an important thing to remember that we're caught in a culture where it's very Instagram and everything's perfect. And, you know, it's a veneer of a very filtered life that we're looking at from everybody. And that's dishonest. And it's complete lies that we're looking at in social media at the moment.

And so at the end of the day, when you start to have a conversation, you might actually find out that your friend is going through something worse or is struggling with a family member or another friend that's going through something else. And you might find that you feel like either they understand you better or that it helps you to put your issue in perspective and go, actually, you know, I didn't realize she was going through X, Y and Z or he was going through, you know, the other thing to say that's really important is and I was at a conference again yesterday in relation to mental health. Men, men are really important in that they're taking up most of the data in the amount of the significant proportion of people who died by suicide last year and the before was men. The lower side of, you know, the the people availing of counselling supports in this country are mostly women. You know, about two thirds women, one third men. So we need to go and really think about where are our male friends, our partners, our brothers, our fathers, are they OK? Because I think that we're reaching a situation where we have to think about why that's happening and how do we engage men in better, emotionally supportive conversations.

Sarah Hughes (29:42)

Yeah, you're dead right. And I think, you know, we still at some level have this sort of toxic masculinity of like, it's weak to be struggling with your feelings and it's weak to talk about your feelings and stuff. And actually, I think, counter to that, the actual truth of it is it's really hard to have these conversations. It takes a really strong bravery to go, do you know what? I'm not doing okay and I need to talk to somebody about it. Like that, that takes a strength beyond anything else really.

Nicola Byrne (30:07)

It does. know, I'm going to sound like an old lady, but I'm around long enough to see Irish society has changed a lot in the last few decades. And I'm a single parent and I can do everything like I can now as a woman, I can have two masters, I can, you know, I can pay the bills, I can do everything. I can see that men must be really struggling with the change that have happened quite rapidly in society for the role, you know, not that long ago, men were breadwinners and it was the marriage bar was in place where once you got married as a woman, you worked that's, you know, within a lot of people's lifetime that are still walking around this country at the moment. So there is something to do with culture change and the rapid changes right now that are going on with how, you know, information has been presented through digital platforms and also the AI and all of that, how people, their self -esteem, their sense of hope, all of that is being impacted at the moment.

Sarah Hughes (31:19)

Yeah, it's tough times for everybody out there. mean, you know, can't ignore global situations, but it's just a stressful time to be a person in the world at the moment. So with that in mind, there's two questions that I ask everybody. We could chat forever and ever, I think, about these topics. But there is two questions that I ask everybody specifically who comes in the podcast.

Sarah Hughes (31:42)

And the first one is really around the takeaway message that you'd like anybody listening to this episode to have. If there was any kind of takeaway message or key thing that you wish students would understand or believe about mental health, what would it be and why?

Nicola Byrne (31:58)

I think that it's important that we know the evidence tells us, the research tells us that the more we talk and are open with each other about our own experience of mental health and mental illness, the more we improve recovery rates because people will seek help faster. But also we will reduce the suicide rates. And we all want to make that difference. And the green ribbon symbolises that.

So what might seem like a simple thing is an avenue for a whole other layer of hope and opportunity for this country to make it a country where we don't have a mental health crisis and we don't have to worry about our young people in the way that we're worrying about them right now. So I do think keep talking and being honest, but also be supportive when somebody reaches out and, you know, It's not about fixing somebody's problem. It's about making them feel heard and valued. And I think that's the most important step. So I could give you 50 different answers to that, Sarah, but that's, I think, the most important one.

Sarah Hughes (33:10)

I really like that bit that you were saying about at the end if somebody reaches out to you because I think, you know, and sometimes it might happen, you know, you're coming up to exams or whatever and you don't necessarily have the capacity to sort of take on, you know, somebody talking to about their struggles or whatever. But there are ways to sort of say, look, it's not that I don't care. It's not that I don't understand. It's just I'm not at capacity to be that person for you right now. But what we can do instead is would you like me to walk you over to the Students' Union? Would you like me to help you make an appointment for the counselling service? There are ways that we can still help. As a friend to a person who's struggling with their mental health doesn't require you to be their therapist and doesn't require you to fix everything. It's just being there and being in the conversation and being open and to listening without judging, I think. then so the last question that I I'd love to hear what this is for you is your favourite or your most used form of self-care.

Nicola Byrne (33:45)

I am and it goes back to maybe what we were talking about just now. I think it's going for a walk. I love to walk, walk, walk. And I am really poor at mindfulness. I studied it and I'm the type of person that sits down to do mindfulness and starts going through the shopping list. And what I forgot to do, I find it really hard to practice those kind of things. But what I find is when I'm out in nature, when I'm at a beach or in a forest, or on a walking trail, I'll listen to the birds, I will notice the colours, I will stay in the moment. And that's what mindfulness truly is about. It's about not worrying about the future, not looking to the past. It's about staying in the moment and really embracing that. So for me, it's about finding what works for you guilt free. know, I have to say some things don't work for me and you have to know what works for you and what doesn't work.

So my best version of mindfulness is running out the door and going for a walk and actually looking and seeing what's new, what the plants are, you know, can I spot a squirrel? Those kind of things. And it really keeps me stay there. So I think for me, it's going for a walk. But in our conversation just there, you were saying, you know, some people wonder what can I do? Society is quite lonely at the moment, and sometimes you can be lonely in a crowd. So even if you feel like you can't say something useful, you might say to them, look, do you want to go for a walk? Or do you want to go for a cup of tea and just talk about stuff? Because sometimes it's about changing the mindset and changing the spiralling thinking. and just, you know, when I was working with adolescents, I used to say, do you remember the helter skelter slide in the fun fair?

And sometimes you know, your bum is parked at the top of the helter skelter side. You're going, well, I let myself go down. And sometimes it's very hard to stop when you start going down the helter skelter unless, you know, you get stuck halfway or whatever. But what I would say is it's, you know, help somebody to stop their bum sliding down the helter skelter. And that might be to talk about complete and utter silly stuff. And it's just to distract them to to lift the thinking. So, you go for a walk. Go on your own, go with people. Reach out and be mindful that people might be feeling very lonely in a crowd.

Sarah Hughes (36:44)

You know, I really love that suggestion for a number of reasons. First of all, it's free because I think sometimes there's this perception that self-care is all about like pampering and going to the spa and all this kind of stuff. And it doesn't have to be that it can be something that literally costs you nothing. But I also love it because I think sometimes and when you're talking about the helter skelter thing, like we're very in our own heads sometimes. And for me, the key about mindfulness is getting out of your head and getting into your body.

Nicola Byrne (37:06)

Yes. Yes.

Sarah Hughes (37:11)

And sometimes, like you say, if sitting there and meditating, your mind's running a million different ways, sometimes getting up and doing something that moves your body can help you physically move from your head into your body, which I think is fantastic. And so, yeah, that's that's a fantastic suggestion. And I like that doing it with somebody else as well, because it benefits both of you, even if only when it happens to be struggling with your mental health in that moment, it can benefit both of you. And so, yeah, I really love that.

Nicola Byrne (37:36)

Yes. Absolutely.

Sarah Hughes (37:41)

So, thanks again for coming on today, Nicola. I really appreciate it. Again, I think we could talk for hours and hours about all of this. Thank you for listening to today's episode. Connecting Minds is made possible thanks to funding from the National Office for Suicide Prevention. If you have any comments or questions about today's episode, the podcast or the work that USI are doing on student mental health, please feel free to contact us or follow us on our social media platforms, details of which are available in the show notes. Sources of support are included in the show notes. Please reach out for help if you are struggling in any way with your mental health.