Connecting Minds Episode 12

Michelle O'Driscoll, Senior Postdoctoral Researcher with the National Suicide Research Foundation and lecturer in clinical pharmacy in UCC

Kerrie Gallagher, Research Officer with the National Suicide Research Foundation 

Hannah Zieden, Psychology Student in UCC

Useful links:

List of counselling services available through PCHEI: https://www.pchei.ie/index.php/students1/student-counselling

USI Mental Health Website: https://mentalhealth.usi.ie/ 

USI Mental Health Social Media: https://twitter.com/MentalHealthUSI 

Sources of Help & Support for your mental health: https://mentalhealth.usi.ie/i-need-help/help-in-a-mental-health-emergency/ 

National Office for Suicide Prevention: https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/mental-health-services/nosp/

Information on the different rungs of suicide prevention training: https://mentalhealth.amle.ie/2025/03/10/suicide-prevention-training-are-you-trained/

Information on times/dates/locations of in-person suicide prevention trainings: https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/mental-health-services/connecting-for-life/training/upcoming-training/

NSRF study: https://www.nsrf.ie/development-implementation-and-evaluation-of-a-university-module-in-suicide-prevention-for-undergraduate-health-and-social-care-students-phase-two/

This transcript was automatically generated and lightly edited for context. Any transcript errors should be notified to mentalhealth@usi.ie

SPEAKERS

Sarah Hughes, Kerrie Gallagher, Michelle O’Driscoll, Hannah Zaiden

Sarah Hughes: (00:04)

Hello and welcome to episode 12 of Connecting Minds, the student mental health podcast. Today we are going to be talking about suicide prevention training and I'm delighted to welcome Michelle O'Driscoll, senior postdoctoral researcher with the National Suicide Research Foundation and lecturer in clinical pharmacy in UCC, Kerrie Gallagher, research officer in the National Suicide Research Foundation and Hannah Zieden, a psychology student in UCC to talk to us today. Thanks very much for coming along to talk to us guys, I really appreciate it. So maybe Michelle, we might start with you and maybe ask you to tell everybody who you are and what it is that you do as a senior postdoctoral researcher.

Michelle O’Driscoll: (00:47)

Yeah, no problem. Thanks Sarah. So, yeah, my background is pharmacy, but I always loved research and had a particular interest in area of mental health. Did my PhD several years ago in student well-being education and focused on pharmacy, but joined the NSRF in 2023 and was delighted to get to work on this project on how best to educate healthcare professionals as students in suicide prevention.

Sarah Hughes: (01:12)

Fascinating and Kerrie, what about yourself? You're a research officer with the NSRF. What's that all about?

Kerrie Gallagher: (01:21)

Yeah, so I suppose I kind of had a long-winded way of getting to this role. My first degree was in secondary school education in home economics and biology. And during that time, I lost a friend to suicide and it kind of lit a fire underneath me of what we can do. So I came back in 2018 and pursued a public health degree in UCC with the knowledge of knowing that they worked closely with the National Suicide Research Foundation and then went on to work with them and my main project really has been the development of this undergraduate model.

Sarah Hughes: (01:55)

Excellent, and Hannah what about yourself? You're studying psychology at the moment is that right?

Hannah Zaiden: (02:00)

Yeah, so I'm in second year at the moment. And yeah, I just feel really passionate, passionate about suicide prevention, and especially for health care professionals. And it's I feel like it'd be beneficial for like working in the future and stuff. So yeah.

Sarah Hughes: (02:19)

Yeah, so as both of you touched on there, we're really the reason all four of us are here today is to talk particularly about a project that the three of you guys have been involved in. Maybe Michelle, do you want to give us a brief overview of what the project was all about?

Michelle O’Driscoll: (02:36)

Yeah, so it's linked to Connecting for Life, Action 5.4.4, which is to do with preparing healthcare professionals in suicide prevention in their practice, both undergraduate and qualified. So the HSE identified this gap in education and asked the NSRF to investigate, first of all, what would be needed in that space, and then to go ahead and design, develop and deliver something and evaluate as to whether it would be effective or not. So it's had several kind of parts to the project, scoping out development and then piloting and evaluating.

Sarah Hughes: (03:16)

Yeah, and I think, you know, it feels like it's been a long road to get to the point that it's at now. I mean, you guys have been working really, really hard on it. And I know you guys recently launched some of the results of the pilot project. Maybe Kerrie, do you want to talk us through a little bit of what they kind of told us?

Kerrie Gallagher: (03:36)

Yeah, so we piloted the project back in October 2024 and it was piloted both in University College Cork and University College Dublin. So I suppose, first of all, we had over 200 students sign up for participation, which absolutely blew us away. And what was really important to us was that students would, the classes would be interprofessional in nature. So we had a mix of students from all health and social care disciplines, from medicine, nursing and pharmacy to public health, psychology like Hannah is in, even from dentistry, veterinary and radiography. So it was a fantastic mix of students in the classrooms. Most of the participants were female, so about 80 % of the participants were female. as we expected, most of the participants were in the younger age category of 18 to 24, so about 85% of students. It was split 58 % of students from UCD and 41% from University College Cork. And the majority of our students were in second and third year, first, second and third year, sorry, with 9.8% then of students being in fourth year. 

Overall, we measured three main measurements. So the first scale that we used was the suicide attitudes, behaviours and competence questionnaire. And that was probably a really important questionnaire, particularly when it came to student competence. So how competent before the module did they feel in suicide prevention skills and using those skills? And then how competent after taking the course did they feel in using those skills? I suppose in terms of suicide prevention importance, a lot of the students scored really high in the first instance anyway because they had signed up to the module in suicide prevention. We recognise that they realised themselves that this is a really important area for them for their skill set and for their future training as health and social care practitioners. In terms of all three measurements, they all went up and they were all statistically significant. So we found that after the module, all students felt more confident in their performance of suicide prevention skills and in their competence in carrying these out in their respective healthcare settings. We also measured the mindful self-care brief scale and this looked at six different sub-categories of self-care because what was important to us as well is that we recognised that students are an at-risk population themselves for mental health.

And we wanted to address that within the module. So what we looked at was their mindful relaxation, their physical care, their self-compassion, any supportive structures that they had, supportive relationships and their own mindful awareness. And the ones that really came off was self-compassion and their mindful awareness. So they all increased statistically significantly, but those two were really shown to increase. You know, we often say when we're presenting this work, particularly around their self-compassion and I suppose as health, ex health care students ourselves and working in the health care industry, like we know that, you know, we can be sometimes our own worst critics and we kind of have that negative internal monologue going on, you know, this like, I don't feel good enough for this or, you know, that kind of conversation going on in your head. So we were delighted to see that their self-compassion did increase over the four weeks of the module. And then we also looked at the interprofessional scale, so the interprofessional education scale. And this was because the classes by nature were you know, mixed cohorts. And we wanted that because it's really important that the students learn with and from one another, because suicide prevention isn't just a siloed medical phenomenon, it needs the collaboration of all different healthcare professionals ongoing to ensure that continuity of care. And again, we saw that after the module, their interprofessional competencies, so how well they collaborate and can work with other professionals in terms of suicide prevention also significantly increased.

Sarah Hughes: (08:15)

It’s really fascinating stuff because we recently spoke to Ailish O’Neill from the HSE around more broadly suicide prevention training. And some of the points that we really reflected on were about that sort of, that sense of confidence in being able to have these conversations. And then the bit you were saying about the self-compassion, I think especially for the student population, like the levels of perfectionism that we see in students are so, so high. And the level of pressure that they're putting themselves under that I think if I could give everybody a pint glass of self-compassion in each college, I absolutely would. And Hannah, you took part in this training yourself. What was your experience and how did you find that?

Hannah Zaiden: (08:56)

Well, when I saw that the sign up came through, I was really eager to sign up. We, in psychology, like we don't really have much opportunity to kind of collaborate with students from other, like who are other healthcare professionals. So it was really interesting, like to be able to work in small groups with students in medicine or dentistry or OT and kind of hear their take on things. 

It was kind of I hadn't kind of thought of things from like even like a dentist point of view before. So I found that really interesting. And the Wellbeing book as well at the beginning was a really nice touch because it kind of broke things down a bit. We weren't kind of rushing into anything that we considered too heavy, you know. So, yeah, I found it really, really official experience.

Sarah Hughes: (09:54)

I think that's a really good point that you make in terms of learning from other people working in different fields of healthcare, because if you think of it, when you guys all qualify and go out into working in the healthcare field, it is all multidisciplinary these days and working with people who have trained in a different avenue than you have. And yes, as you say, as a psychology student, that's not something that typically you're experiencing day to day within the college sphere. Kerrie, maybe could you tell us a little bit about what the modules actually looked like and what that experience would have been like for students?

Kerrie Gallagher: (10:29)

Yeah, of course. Yeah. So it was four weeks in total. It's a two hour class per week, so eight hours in total. The first session is, well, first of all, all about making that kind of safe space for the students, introducing the module, getting to know one another. And then we go into the epidemiology of suicide and self-harm. So that's your statistics, but also realizing that, you know, behind every statistic is a life lost to suicide and a family and a community impacted.

In the second week then we focus on risk and protective factors for suicide and self-harm and then we look at suicide prevention through a public health lens. So that's how to prevent suicide from a universal approach, things like media campaigns, from a selective approach looking at sort of what would be called priority groups for suicide prevention and then the indicated approach which very much focuses on the individual and having, you know, psychosocial supports and pharmacology pharmacological treatment if needed. Importantly, in between weeks two and three, the students are asked to complete the let's talk about suicide online training. And we ask them to do that because when they come into week three, we want them to have some grounding because really this is the crux of it. And week three is all about effective communication. So, you know, what happens in that build up to when you think someone might be in distress or having suicidal thoughts or behaviours and then how to broach those important questions when you are worried about someone. And then finally going on to the signposting, so being able to give them information on the appropriate supports out there or what to do. Say for instance, if they need to go to the emergency department or it's a case where a GP appointment would be more appropriate and just going through all those scenarios.

And then finally, in week four, we look at the clinical journey. So this is very much focused on suicide prevention in the emergency department and the National Clinical Program for Suicide Prevention, which we have in Ireland. What I will say is that even though it is very much focused on the ED, it's really important, we feel, for all healthcare professionals to know this, because let's just say you're a pharmacist and a patient comes in and they express that they have suicidal ideation and that they have a plan in place perhaps. It's really important that you can, when directing them to the emergency department, give them, I suppose, a sense of security as to what should happen when they go into the emergency department and what are the best practices so that they can advocate for themselves as well when they're there or that a family or supporter, you know, that you can bring them in and have them advocate for the patient, you know, if they're in severe distress.

Sarah Hughes: (12:30)

And in terms of, so maybe Michelle you can talk me through the structure of how these modules kind of fit in with the regular day-to-day student schedule and how that may or may not have impacted on the ability to roll out the module.

Michelle O’Driscoll: (17:31)

The overall vision of the module is that this would be embedded in every undergraduate health care course in the country. But we realized very quickly at the initial stages of the planning that you know, that wasn't going to be feasible immediately. So the pilot was delivered as an optional offering. So it was offered in the evening time on a weekday, either Tuesday or Wednesday, from half five to half seven. And so it two hours a week for four weeks. And so that was quite a commitment. And we were delighted to see the people who did sign up really followed through. I think we had an almost 90 % retention rate, which was just such a testament to the students. So that really showed that there is an appetite. This addresses the need for the appetite and addresses the gap because I suppose the whole premise for this is that we know that 80 % of people who die by suicide have a contact with a healthcare professional in the months prior to their death. Yet there is that lack of training. So we really do need to upskill people so that they feel more confident and our results have shown now that it does do that. 

So in terms of next steps for all out, you know, it was optional. We had that interest and buy-in and we have those statistics to show that this does work. So next steps would be to try and get it embedded into timetables and into curricula. So, you know, initially it might be that universities will offer it extra curricularly like we did for the pilot just to get a sense and give them a feel for how it is to deliver this. And the next step would be that it would be timetabled, but maybe not part of any particular module as such, not credit bearing. But what we're ultimately aiming for is that academics would find space in a particular module for this to be embedded. it's two hours a week for four weeks, that's eight hours. And we feel that every course will have that space if it's prioritized. So we've been delighted with the momentum around this. We've had what's called a World Cafe last January, which really helped us to explore how to address those barriers and challenges in implementation.

And one of the things that we'll hopefully address that we're working on at the moment is a train the trainer program. So ideally, like myself and Kerrie, we'd love to travel the country delivering this as a full time job to be honest with you, we just enjoy it so much. It's so rewarding. But that isn't feasible and or sustainable. So for this to be embedded everywhere, we need people to do that locally and own it on the ground. So this program is going to upskill academics as a pilot initially. but to give them the tools and the resources to actually deliver this to their own students in their own HEIs. So once that's kind of created, we'll be able to check that that definitely works as well. And it really just empowers the different universities to say, right, we're taking this, we're finding place for it. 

And what the pilot really utilised and what I think is needed going forward as well are champions for this. So does need a person or a couple of people in each course or in each institution to really take ownership and drive it because everyone acknowledges the importance of it, but the next step is action. And so that's where I think the Train the Trainer program, someone has committed the time to conduct that training and to take part in it and be certified in it. Then the hope is that they would then take the next step and champion it in their own institution. So we're really excited about kind of the momentum that has built in recent months and hoping to continue that into the future.

Kerrie Gallagher: (17:03)

I think it's really important as well to realise that there is that appetite from the students as well. you know, it's not just the health care academics or ourselves pushing it, but the appetite is there among the students. And that was seen with the overwhelming sign-up that we had. We actually had to close our registration within three days because we were overwhelmed by the number of students that signed up initially to the module.

Hannah Zaiden: (17:29)

Yeah, I remember mentioning it to a few like fellow students. But by the time they had seen it, the registration was closed because it was just gone so quick. So there definitely were more students in psychology anyway that definitely wanted to do it. Yeah.

Sarah Hughes: (17:31)

Yeah, I was just thinking Hannah from the student perspective as Michelle was talking there, like I imagine that there probably aren't a lot of courses running in healthcare that you would describe as, you know, easy, not very busy, things like that. they, I imagine most healthcare students are very busy, have lots going on, probably don't have a lot of free time to be taken on an extra set of modules of an evening and not even be getting any credit for them. So like that to me really does speak to the, like you say, the eagerness of people to take it. And I wonder, you know, do you have kind of any thoughts in terms of how that experience was for you, like to take this on, on top of everything that you're doing versus how that might've been? I'm kind of thinking down the line, if we get the train, the trainer program, and it gets embedded into, into particular modules how much easier and how much more likely students would be to engage with it then.

Hannah Zaiden: (18:46)

I suppose for me personally, it wasn't too much of an extra commitment to take on because it was split into the four weeks, it made it a bit easier. wasn't like it was kind of one full day you were committing to or anything. But I think if it was put into, I think it would be amazing if we put into like the curriculum, because you can tell like so many people want to do it. So if it was just part of the curriculum already, like that would make things easier. And then for anyone who can't access it because they were working or whatever after college, And yeah, it would be pretty good.

Sarah Hughes: (19:32)

I'm thinking as well, Kerrie, you were saying about the importance of having that wellbeing aspect in it, given that students are at risk population for suicide as well. Like, I imagine the potential impact of if this was embedded into the curriculum a bit more, the potential impact of improving the overall wellbeing of whole classes of students as well.

Kerrie Gallagher: (19:58)

Yeah, 100% Sarah, like it is very important you know students are under a lot of stress these days and, you know, I suppose with the age of digital technology as well it's an added stress that I suppose also is kind of a bit of an older cohort don't really understand you know that pressure of social media and stuff and back in last summer we had a student working with us Jane McDonald, she's a public health student, well graduate now actually and she helped us co-design the student wellbeing workbook, which is part of the module. within the module itself, each week delivers a bit of wellbeing content, but we wanted something extra for the students as well. 

So we came up with this idea of this wellbeing workbook. And within that wellbeing workbook, there's eight key areas identified that are relevant to the students. So nutrition, sleep, physical activity and then we've got social media managing university life. God they're gone from my head now. Self-compassion. Yeah and there's one more organizing your space so like you know having that clear head space and clear environment space as well for you to work effectively and it's really tailored to the student experience itself because we know that one that self-care is not a one-size-fits-all approach.

So within that workbook, we give some general kind of background and scientific information and evidence to that section of wellbeing. And then we also give some space for reflection for the students. And further to that, then there's like a mountain of additional resources that the students can use for that particular topic. And we encourage the students each week to focus on one aspect of wellbeing that they found that maybe they were struggling with at the time. And then we'd reflect on that aspect with them the following week if they were open to sharing with us. And to be honest, they were. Like we had some amazing feedback from the students, you know, students trying to stay away from their phone or get more sleep or, you know, connect out in the community and make time for that. And it was fantastic to see it. 

And some students came back and they said, like, I really focused on sleep this week. I tried my best, but I focused so much I actually couldn't sleep, which just shows how difficult it can be, you know, to kind of get that wellbeing piece right. But like we all, we were all able to share our experiences. And to be honest, I feel like myself and Michelle learned so much as well. I know I certainly did in terms of wellbeing, like we weren't there to be your traditional lecturer, you know, we were facilitating discussions and that was really, really important for the whole module I think and building that rapport as well with the students and having that safe space.

Sarah Hughes: (22:47)

That's really fascinating because I think there's two kind of main thoughts that I have from that. The first one is that sometimes I think it's about facilitating a space for a student to just reflect on how their sleep is going. you know, we bombard people with information, especially students, you know, you need to sleep well, you need to eat well, you need to do this, you need to do that, stay on top of your assignments, show up to your classes, do the social stuff, get a job, pay your accommodation fee. it's just, you know, all this big, long laundry to-do list. But at the same time, I'm really conscious that most students are, you know, they're just learning how to stand on their own two feet and live on their own and manage all those things like organizing their space and, you know, you know what a healthy meal is, but how do you cook that for yourself? How do you afford the ingredients? How long does vegetables keep for when you're buying them for yourself?

You know, they're just figuring all this stuff out for themselves for the very, very first time. And sometimes they need a bit of space and a bit of guidance and a bit of reflection in order to be able to figure all of that out. And I think sometimes it can kind of get a little bit lost in what seems to be the simplicity of it. Like, if you eat well and if you sleep well and if you do exercise, it'll help your mental health. And that's...As a sentence, that seems really simplistic and easy to do, but in reality, it's often not the case. So I think I'm really fascinated that you guys built that in as part of your programme, rolling it out.

Michelle O’Driscoll: (24:29)

Yeah, I think having it bespoke to the students. So you know, there's eight sections there, but they chose in week one, they did like a well-being audit and chose what were the three that needed the most attention. And then I think also the bite size approach to it. So it wasn't like, OK, you've identified all these areas of issue and you need to address go and address these now. It was really like step by step. And we made it very actionable as well. So I think one of the sections had like, people may have heard of SMART goals, but, you know, you can say, oh, go and eat better. That's very general, very inactionable. Where do you even start? So we really did introduce that way of saying, okay, what's one small thing within that that you could take control of? And it just broke things down, I think, and maybe Hannah might be able to speak to that more, but I think it just made it more personal, more something that they had control over and decision with and more actionable. 

Hannah Zaiden: (25:20)

Yeah. And I think like, it was also really nice to be able to have like kind of like an icebreaker at the start of each week. And because we kind of like had a laugh with it as well, especially like with the ones around sleep and stuff. I remember a few students were saying that maybe they weren't getting much sleep and then the person next to them might have gotten like nine hours, 10 hours sleep, you know. So it's kind of just hearing what works for different people. And I think it was a nice way for others to get ideas as well and stuff around screen time and like setting the timer to turn the phone off at night time and stuff instead of scrolling. So yeah, I thought it was a really nice addition at the start of each week.

Sarah Hughes: (26:04)

I have to say I'm really struck by the sort of the sense of empowerment of students. I think it's something I'm really conscious of, especially post COVID where, you know, all these young people had so much taken away from them, dictated to them, that there is still this overhang of sort of a sense of powerlessness a lot of the time. So I really love that sense of empowerment. Hannah, the one thing I'm really picking up from you there is like we're talking about suicide prevention training. Like that's a heavy topic, it's a very serious thing, but I'm still getting that sense of like, that you enjoyed it, which I think is really important as well. There was a bit of fun to be had with it.

Hannah Zaiden: (26:44)

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And like, especially just even like the first week, I feel like we were all a bit nervous. But then after that, like you're seeing the same faces again and you're meeting new people and we had the breaks in between to like be able to have a chat with each other. yeah, it was really.

Sarah Hughes: (27:02)

probably meeting people from different courses that maybe you wouldn't have a chance to run into anyway. Yeah, great. And so maybe Kerrie, you might talk a bit, Michelle, you referenced that we're moving on to a new phase of this project, the trainer piece. Maybe Kerrie, you might talk us through where you're at with that and what the plans are for the next year.

Hannah Zaiden: (27:07)

Yeah.

Kerrie Gallagher: (27:24)

Yeah, of course. Yeah, God, we're in the throes of it, Sarah. So the train the trainer is, as Michelle mentioned, it's for health care academics to roll out the module within their respective institutions. So what that entails is some pre-online materials like pre-learning before they come to us. And then myself and Michelle and other colleagues from the National Suicide Research Foundation and the National Office of Suicide Prevention will deliver a two day in-person training up in UCD. And that's scheduled for the 13th and 14th of May of this year. And that really is to run through the content of the course with facilitators and ensure that there's fidelity kept there because we do want the same material delivered to run through frequently asked questions because obviously in suicide prevention education, there's, I suppose, what you'd call a couple of sticky bits and particularly regarding patient confidentiality or what happens if a child discloses suicidal ideation to you and what do you do there. So running through all those bits with the facilitator and ensuring that they themselves as well are comfortable in the safety protocols because it was really important when we were rolling this out that we had to keep student safety in mind, of course. 

I mentioned at the start there that we know students themselves can be in at at risk population and health care students as well by nature of the profession and burnout that can come with it if you're not minding yourself. So we had a really detailed safety protocol in place in case anything happened to a student. Now, we were thankfully nothing like that did occur. And I just feel that, you know, we made ourselves available before, during and after the module and students were very I suppose keen to come up and just have a chat with us and, you know, trying to learn more and, yeah, making sure that all those things are in place in the respective HCI is really important to us because, you know, the student safety is paramount, first of all, and then obviously delivering the content itself.

Sarah Hughes: (29:39)

Yeah, so I'd love to be saying to people, so if you're interested, here's where you sign up, but you guys are actually oversubscribed for that next phase.

Kerrie Gallagher: (29:48)

Yeah, so we had massive interest from the healthcare or from the HGIs and we conducted the interviews and have offered the places, but look, we're in talks to keep this going and hopefully it will be the case where, you know, a train the trainer might run two or three times a year because there are still people interested in doing this and delivering it within HGIs and sure we know that there's hundreds of courses out there.

At the very beginning of this project, we did a scoping exercise to see how many courses this could fit into. I think, don't quote me, but 208 is coming into my head. I know it was massive. It was massive between level six and level eight courses that this could be rolled out to.

Sarah Hughes: (30:35)

Yeah. And I think, as you said, Michelle, the key, like you've got the kind of the next phase of the train, the trainer bit, and that's going to go ahead. But longer term, really that the thing you need is those champions at local level who can kind of push for it to go where there's a new newly trained trainer come back to campus, that they can be enabled to roll it out on their campus and to start the process moving towards embedding it then.

Michelle O’Driscoll :(31:01)

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we're under no illusions it won't happen overnight, but I definitely think if we can continue to build on the momentum, then the champions will help to do that. And the other people that will be important to have at the table in the future as well are regulatory bodies. you know, courses get revised maybe every five years or so, you know, the competencies that they need to demonstrate in order for people to qualify as that particular healthcare professional.

That's all very much stipulated. So we need to do further work, I think, as well on mapping how this meets those competencies and working with kind of regulatory bodies, whether it's the, you know, the medicine or the nursing or the pharmacy or psychology or whatever, that you know,  that that would give an additional layer, I think, to where this sits in the future. That, you  know,  the HEA and the regulators are all kind of on the same page with this, because I think everyone is on the same page in terms of this is important. And we have the evidence for this module now. But showing that it ticks those competency boxes as well I think is important from a regulation side in healthcare profession.

Sarah Hughes: (32:03)

Yeah, and look, yes, you're absolutely right. It's not going to, you know, we're not going to be coming back having another conversation next year about how it's rolled out in, you know, 20 odd colleges. What I do think, you know, you've got momentum, there is movement, you're building your evidence base and, you know, bit by bit that snowball is going to get a bit bigger. So, So as you might know, there are two questions that I ask everybody who comes onto the podcast.

So what I might do is I might ask the first question out of all you guys and then come back and ask the second question of everybody. So my first question and I might come to you first Michelle is if there was one key takeaway for any student listening to this either about the concept of suicide prevention training or the module or mental health in general, what would you want to say to students?

Michelle O’Driscoll: (32:58)

Yeah, I was thinking about that one when you told us about it in advance. But I think what we say to the main takeaway from our suicide prevention module that we give to all students is that, you know, you will not leave this being an expert. And I think nobody is an expert in suicide prevention, but everyone can play a role. And so it's not that you should leave with the weight of the world on your shoulders, that this is now your responsibility and yours alone. It's not. And I think the interprofessional nature of our module really showed students. all the different pieces of that suicide prevention puzzle, if you know what I mean, so that we can all take a little bit of ownership, but no one has to take sole responsibility. think that's important professionally and personally as students as well, whether it's your family or friends or whatever. Everyone can reach out, but nobody has that sole responsibility on them either.

Sarah Hughes: (33:45)

It was something that I spoke a good deal with Ailish about this idea that, you know, it's about having a conversation. That's what it boils down to at the end of the day and feeling confident to have that conversation and to start that process. And, you know, this idea that, you know, there is, I think, a sort of a presumption that suicide prevention is in the remit of, you know, paramedics, Gardai, healthcare professionals. Like you said, Hannah, it's the remit of dentists, of pharmacists, of friends and family. It's like the phrase suicide prevention is everybody's business is absolutely true. And so I think you're right on the money with what you're saying there, Michelle. Kerrie, if I come to you next then, what would your one message to put out would be?

Kerrie Gallagher: (34:35)

I’m bubbling under the surface there because Michelle took what I was going to say. But I suppose to add to what Michelle was saying, and to any students listening to this, like it is like no one is an expert and don't take that burden on yourself. But also you can be an advocate for suicide prevention. know, you can be an advocate within your health care course or within your institution. You know, if this is something that you feel should be rolled out in your course, you could push for that or push for some form of suicide prevention training to get in, you know, or go and look up some suicide prevention training yourself and go and take that course. You know, the more advocates we have speaking out for this, the less stigma there is. And we know we've come a long way, you know, in terms of the stigma surrounding mental health and suicide. But, you know, it’s insane that there is still so much work to be done. And the more voices that are heard together in unison, the more progress we will make.

Sarah Hughes: (35:31)

And I think you're dead right. Like it is possible to get suicide prevention training, even if it's not provided by your course or by your college. And I think it's really important to note, particularly, for the purpose of speaking to students, that training is free. There's no need to pay for it or anything like that. And we will put a link in the show notes for this episode as to where you can go to find where that training is on. But I would say also do check in with, like that with your course coordinators with the student union, with the counseling service. Sometimes colleges do run it and they're not always that great at advertising that they're running it. But as you say, Kerrie, absolutely ask the questions, advocate for it. That's something I think that the student body as a whole is really good at doing is pushing for change and pushing for more good to be done on their campuses. And that's one really easy way that students can do it. Absolutely. Hannah, what about you?

Hannah Zaiden: (36:28)

Yeah, so one thing I was thinking of there was I remember that at the start of the module there was a lot of like misconception around like if like you talk about suicide it'll make things worse so I think like a key takeaway for a lot of the students was that like talking doesn't make things worse and it can be like the turning point where someone feels heard and supported and so I feel like that's a really important takeaway from the module.

Sarah Hughes: (36:55)

Yeah, that's a really, really good point, actually. Saying the word suicide to somebody and saying, have you thought about suicide is not going to like plant the idea in the head. Nobody's got to go, well, I wasn't. But now that you've said it, I definitely am. That's not how it works. And we do have research and statistics that absolutely backs up that that's not the case. And so yeah, I think that's a really important message on it. Absolutely. And so then to move on to the second question that I ask everybody that comes on. What is your favorite or most used form of self-care and why? There are no wrong answers. Michelle, we'll start with you again.

Michelle O’Driscoll: (37:33)

So I'm a very cliche person. find some mindfulness meditation using Insight Timer app is brilliant. I find it's, can choose whether you have five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. You can choose what sort of topic, whether it's like, oh, it's anxiety today, or it's just, I want to practice some gratitude, or it's an amazing app to download, I think, and accessible to all. Kerrie rolls her eyes when she hears me talk about it.

As we've been preaching, it's not one size fits all. And what it really helps me with, I think, is I really identified when the results of the survey came back and we improved the self-compassion, I was over the moon about that because I think it's a really integral part to our self-care particularly those you know perfectionistic high achievers. In pharmacy, you're taught to look you know it's black or white it's right or wrong the prescription is safe or it's not and we take that kind of black or white perspective then on to our personal lives and I'm right or wrong or I'm I couldn't, you know, I didn't do that as well as I should have or whatever. And regardless of what your profession is, I think, you know, that inner critic, if you can dampen that down a little bit and substitute out some of those really harsh words for if it was your friend that was struggling, what would you actually say to them? And you can be guaranteed it's night and day, the tone and the language that you use. So I think be more aware of that sort of way that we speak to ourselves and doing our best to at least attempt to make that a little bit nicer Ithink that really helps when it comes to self care.

Sarah Hughes: (39:05)

I really love that idea of using meditation for self-compassion because there's something so kind, like you're being so kind to yourself and saying, no, I'm going to take 10 minutes. I'm not gonna answer any emails. I'm not gonna go on social media. I'm just going to sit here and just be with myself inside my mind for whether it's five, 10 minutes, whatever it is. I think, we don't give ourselves a break, you know, enough not just in terms of you know, taking time out, we like you say, we're often so mean to ourselves inside our own heads in ways that we would never speak to anybody else. And I think, we could all deal with being a bit more self-compassionate towards one another. There's a lot of conversation in the world these days, I think around failure and the concept of failure and there's all these, you see them on social media posts like failure is not a bad thing it's just an opportunity to learn and we read that, but I'm not sure that we ever really apply it to ourselves. And so we still go into things with this absolute fear of failure, of beating ourselves up if we think we've come close to failing or if we have failed. And whereas it's just part of being human. We can't be perfect all the time, even if we want to be. And realistically, why would we want to be? The interest and the fun and everything is where our imperfections are. So yeah, that's a really good one. really like that, Michelle. Kerrie, what about yourself? If you're rolling your eyes at the insight timer, what's your...

Kerrie Gallagher: (40:33)

Meditation is definitely not for me. Yeah, I suppose there's two things. First of all, I am a single mom. So when I put my daughter to bed, my favorite thing to do is get my fluffy orange blanket and light my incense on my candle and watch some kind of murder documentary or history documentary on my own in peace. And that is complete self-care. The second thing is, and I've only recently taken it off, I loved swimming when I was younger and I kind of fell out of that. So in the last few months, I've been swimming again and it's been absolutely amazing water stress reliever and the added bonus of having the jacuzzi after the couple of lengths as well is amazing. So yeah.

Sarah Hughes: (41:20)

They're two really interesting ones. I love the sort of the sensory bit around your first one with the really fluffy dressing gown and the smell of the incense and I bet you put the lights down nice and low and stuff like that as well. Yes. It's a lovely sensory reset going on there after the kind of the hustle and bustle of the day and the quiet I imagine after you've put your child to bed. It's lovely. And I do know I had somebody on another episode who spoke about they use the gym as a form of self care. And there was a meditative element to the repetition of like lifting the weights and stuff. And I think there's something similar in swimming and, you know, moving, you know, doing the same stroke for a whole length. And you don't really need to think that much about it. And I think there's a real power in like we live up in our heads all the time. And like you were saying, Michelle, we can often make that not a very nice place to be.

And I was saying it, I think to Ailish on the last episode as well, there's a, you know, there's this whole conversation going on around like, how do you feel your feelings instead of thinking your feelings and stuff like that. And one of the key ways is to get out of your head and into your body. And I think things like swimming can be a really, really great way to do that.

Kerrie Gallagher: (42:45)

I find my head is very busy, Sarah. So it's really hard to empty it. And I've noticed that the swimming over the last like, you know, couple of weeks, I'm focusing on other parts of my body, like my arms and my legs and my head is empty. it's, it's, I just find it fantastic. Yeah.

Sarah Hughes: (42:52)

And it's you're giving your head something else to focus on because especially with swimming there's coordination, there's, you know, getting your breathing right. There's all that kind of stuff.  And like I find if I go swimming, I say to myself, I'm going to do, you know, X number of lengths and then after a certain number of lengths I go I've no idea how many I've done now because I forgot to keep count. So yeah, no, I love those two. They're they're really, really good ones. And what about you Hannah what what's your go-to self-care?

Hannah Zaiden: (43:20)

I'd be similar to Kerrie in terms of meditation wouldn't exactly be my thing, but exercise, I love like going for a walk or going for a run and clears my head completely. And I do a bit of boxing as well. I usually go in and my mind's racing. But when I leave, I'm like, my head's completely clear. So, yeah, find it really good for that.

Sarah Hughes: (43:44)

think walks are great because you're ticking lots of boxes, like you're moving your body, you've gotten away from all the digital stuff, you're out, you're likely in nature. Again, you're getting that sensory stuff of what you're hearing and you're seeing going on around you, all that kind of stuff. So that's great. And I love the idea of the boxing as well. I think that probably has similar stuff to the swimming in terms of the concentration that you have to have in order to land your punches and all that kind of stuff.

Hannah Zaiden: (44:13)

Yeah, definitely. There is obviously focus in kind of similar repetitive movements in terms of what punches you're throwing because it's usually the same few, but it definitely gets you out of your head and kind of into what you're doing instead, which I think is really good. And the walking is really great for just grinding yourself in general.

Sarah Hughes: (44:35)

There's a great mix and this is one of the reasons why I ask everybody about their self care because I think like you said Michelle there is no one size fits all and I think it's great to hear what other people use for self care and why it's beneficial for them. So it's one of the reasons that I always ask everybody and I love to hear sometimes I'm like maybe I'll give that a try that's a new one I haven't heard. But listen, thanks so much guys for coming on I think we could chat forever about all things suicide prevention and possibly all things self care as well. feel like we could have a whole other mini episode about that. But thanks so much for coming on and chatting to us. Michelle, is there anything else you want to add?

Michelle O’Driscoll: (45:14)

Yes, thank you, Sarah. Just, I suppose, most importantly, a massive thank you to all that have been involved in the design delivery and implementation of this module and its championing as well. To the students who took part in the pilot and gave up their time and really dedicated much of their October to taking part. We're really grateful. And to the HSE National Office for Suicide Prevention and to the HEA National Forum for Teaching and Learning SATL Fund who have both financially supported this module and given us the momentum and the ability to bring it to the next step when needed. And then particularly to colleagues in UCC and UCD for that pilot who really championed it amongst their students, rolled out the recruitment materials for us and made that recruitment possible at a time when it was really important to get the word out there. And to all the other colleagues at the NSRF who have really supported the module and contributed to the facilitation and everything, that's really appreciated too.

Sarah Hughes: (46:23)

Yeah, absolutely. Like as we said, champions are really important. And especially when you're doing this kind of work where it's there's research, there's implementation, there's recruitment, there's advertising, all of that. Champions come in many different forms and you're right. It's really important to acknowledge them. So thank you for listening to today's episode. Connecting Minds is made possible thanks to funding from the National Office for Suicide Prevention.

If you have any comments or questions about today's episode, this podcast or the work that USI are doing on student mental health, please feel free to contact us at mentalhealth.usi.ie or follow us on our social platforms, details of which will be available in the show notes. Sources of support are included in the show notes. Please reach out for help if you are struggling in any way with your mental health.