This episode we introduce you to Dr. Mark Thorne the Range specialist at the the University of Hawaii who discusses the two-lined spittle bug and it's impact on rangelands in Hawaii, as well as it's potential impact on the states land as a whole.
Contact information:
Dr. Mark Thorne
Thank you for tuning into this podcast look forward to more in the future.
Hawaii Rangelands
Livestock Extension Group Facebook page
Livestock Extension Group Youtube channel
UH CTAHR - Livestock Programs
If you have any questions feel free to contact us at walaau@hawaii.edu
Thanks for listening! Check out our other social media platforms!
This episode we introduce you to Dr. Mark Thorne the Range specialist at the the University of Hawaii who discusses the two-lined spittle bug and it's impact on rangelands in Hawaii, as well as it's potential impact on the states land as a whole.
Contact information:
Dr. Mark Thorne
Thank you for tuning into this podcast look forward to more in the future.
Hawaii Rangelands
Livestock Extension Group Facebook page
Livestock Extension Group Youtube channel
UH CTAHR - Livestock Programs
If you have any questions feel free to contact us at walaau@hawaii.edu
Thanks for listening! Check out our other social media platforms!
Welcome Today's episode is brought to you by the University of Hawaii College of Tropical ag and human resources and the livestock extension group.
Melelani Oshiro:Hello Hi and welcome to the livestock Walaau podcast aim to provide educational support information, guidance and outreach to livestock stakeholders in Hawaii. We are your hosts Mele Oshiro and Shannon sand. Today we're going to discuss the twolined spittlebug.
Shannon Sand:To do that, we're going to introduce you to the range and pasture and livestock specialist for the University of Hawaii, Dr. Mark Thorne.
Melelani Oshiro:So I'm excited to introduce you to our colleague and one of the first person people that I've worked for an extension. I've known Mark for about 10 plus years now seems really long when I say that Mark, I didn't realize actually knew that long. But so we worked on very a lot of multiple projects with him. And one of the one of the things I think stood out with me when I first worked was the large project we had with the Pacific Island outreach folks and working with numerous producers, Extension folks, other government agencies and looking at Tropical pasture livestock management. I'm gonna let Mark tell us a little bit more about how he came to be a specialist for the University of Hawaii.
Dr. Mark Thorne:First of all, thank you guys for having me on for your Wala'au Podcast. I'm really honored to be here. And I think I think what you're doing with this is really a great thing. So I wish you a lot of luck and success with this.
Shannon Sand:Thank you. Thank you for coming on. Yes. Thanks
Melelani Oshiro:for being here.
Unknown:Yes, yeah. So to give you a little bit of background, you know, I so I grew up in Wyoming. So I'm not a Hawaii boy, obviously. And
Melelani Oshiro:I would have never guessed that.
Unknown:I growing up in Wyoming, I spent a lot of time on the family ranch i i Then after high school during high school, and after high school, I worked for ranches around the western United States. That that was what I was going to do. And but but life had some other decisions for me. And after I spent about eight years in the Marine Corps, I decided in a roundabout way that I'd go to school and get into range management. And so I did my bachelor's and undergraduate, my bachelor's and my master's projects at University of Wyoming and then went to Colorado State University for my PhD program. And I finished in 2002. And during that 2002 period, I had applied for and accepted a physician with Colorado State University's arranging livestock extension specialist in the southeast corner of the state. But before I even started the, the job. I had also accepted an opportunity to interview for a job and it was here at the University of Hawaii. So in December, about two weeks before I was supposed to start the position and Colorado. Came here to interview. And so yeah, so the interview flew, you know, just as as an interesting aside, I guess. It maybe it was maybe it was fated that I would come to the University of Hawaii. Yeah. When I stepped off of the airplane and stepped out of the airport, I sat down on a bench waiting for Dr. Carpenter and Brent Buckley, who were the on the committee, they were going to come pick me up at the airport, and I sat down at a bench and I I had with me a garment bag that I had when I was in the Marine Corps, have my my name on scrolled across the top of it. And a gentleman had come out and he was in civilian clothes, but he came in and came out and he sat down next to me. I I didn't wasn't really paying attention. But he had looked at my bag. And he said excuse me said he said he asked me if I had served in the Marine Corps. And I said, I said well, yeah, I did. And he said well, he was lieutenant house. He was my last commanding officer when I was in the Marine Corps when I discharged from the Marine core, he was now a major. So it's just you just imagine the, you know, the how big of a coincidence how the serendipity of that moment. I could have been five minutes late, and I would have missed him. But I sat there for about five minutes. We talked a little bit back and forth. And then Dr. Carpenter and Brent Buckley came, and he went his way, and I haven't ever seen him since. But I just thought that that was such a, you know, it was like, Okay, there's something going on here. The man was meant to be here. So it was great to connect with him. And so, you know, so if that kind of set the tone for you know, the interviews went great. I, I was just hugely humbled by, you know, the the knowledge and the generosity and hospitality of the livestock industry in the state when I came here. And, you know, I was taken around to the ranches on Maui and the ranches on the Big Island. And, you know, John Paoli on Maui had to make sure that he introduced me to a local moko. And so I drive up country to go to Holly Aqua ranch for the interview, where he stopped and had local locals at a little restaurant and in Pukalani, and, and so, I was just amazed I, there were things that I saw as signs that, you know, this was the place where I needed to come. I was really impressed by the diversity of the range lands here and the ranching community and what they were dealing with and, and their resourcefulness. And so I was just really impressed. And I, I, I left Hawaii after three days of interviews, kind of convinced that if I was offered the position, I would take it. And I, only a week after I interviewed, they called me back and offered me the position. And I accepted there was a little bit of negotiation back and forth on on startup packages and that kind of stuff. But they, but the university met everything every thing I asked for and, and so I thought, well, this is where I've got to go. And so in the meantime, I still had I had a job, I still had a position at Colorado State. And so I felt obligated to at least at least show up and Rocky Ford for a month or two and my start date wasn't until August 1 of 2003. But man, I did go to Rocky Ford and I was in Rocky Ford from January till till July and and did that job there. So yeah, I came here and, you know, you know, John Paoli and Glenn Fukumoto and Lincoln Chien all now retired livestock extension agents that had been in the, in their positions for a long time, you know, really took me under their wing and, and taught me a lot about extension and, you know, collaboration and working together. So and, and really helped me get my feet on the ground in terms of establishing a range in livestock program. It had been my predecessor, Bert Smith had left in 2000. So it had been about three years since the position had been filled. And so, you know, there was a new and I had to learn about, you know, what I had, you know, I had a lot to learn, and, I mean, I I feel like I'm still learning over here, and I've been here, this is now my I'm into my 18th year, or, yeah, it'll be an 18th year, August 1, so so it's, I feel like I'm still learning. And, you know, the learning curve was really steep coming here and and Hawaii is very unique. I mean, you know, range management practices and principles are the same they they're applied across all kinds of ecological systems, but there's some very unique aspects to Hawaii and I, I felt like it was going to be a challenge to me, personally, and it has been and it's very much worth the challenge. So I was excited to come here and learn and work within the livestock community and, and, and develop a program that I that I felt was, you know, worthy of, of the, of the industry here. I don't know that I've ever fully met everybody's expectations, I hope that I've fulfilled some hope that I've that I've provided something lasting here, you know, in the time that I've been here so far. And, you know, I'd like to, I'm not anywhere near retirement at this point. But my retire, I'd like to think that I, I contributed something to the industry, you know, down the road, so,
Melelani Oshiro:yeah, well, I wouldn't say like this, you know, I thought being that I was born and raised here that we knew a lot. I knew a lot about our pastures and rangelands and stuff, and I gotta tell you working for Mark, I mean, Mark, you, I've learned so much more, you know, there's so much more to it than just thinking about it. As a, you know, I mean, it is the maloca and MCI sections, you know, it's always going to be very different. But there's also so much more in between all of that, that, I think is really important. But,
Unknown:yeah, it's, I would just quickly say that, whatever, whatever I have been able to accomplish here has been, it has been because of mele. And prior to her was Matt Stephenson and but Mellie worked for you. What, nine years, I think, right? Yeah.
Shannon Sand:Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I was like, she's been here almost like working with you. And for you almost as long as you've been here, then? Well,
Unknown:I tell you what, she could do the job, she could do my job. I mean, I don't know, she's, she's really she really did a great job all those years. And, you know, when, when the opportunity came for her to apply for the livestock extension agent position, it was, you know, that was it was a great move for her. And it was a great, it was great for the for the college to be able to, to get her on board. Agent, you know, well, thanks. Well, and it's so hard for you know, it's so hard here, because, you know, we just, we lost our extension agent on Kawhi. Lately, and, you know, those are challenges that that we have here, it's hard to retain good faculty. And so I'm so glad that you, and I'm glad that you remained a colleague and livestock extension agent position. So you know, now's a time to work together in a different capacity in a different mode. And I'm, I'm excited about that.
Melelani Oshiro:Yeah, yeah. So I my and I think it's yeah, it's such a great thing, you know, and even like, working now with Shannon is, you know, it's good. We've gotten so much different things that we've discussed. And I'm glad that you know, we've been discussing this podcast for a year. So I'm glad that we're finally here doing this. And I think it's going to be I hope, it's going to be a great opportunity for us to continue to share our program and things with our stakeholders. But
Shannon Sand:we do have to say a big thanks to Mark because he is the head of the livestock extension group. Yeah, and gave us our kind of like, first seed money to purchase all of the equipment and software and the different things and like, he was the one that was like, when we pitched the idea to him, Mark was like, Yeah, you guys.
Melelani Oshiro:Very, yeah, very supportive. So we do have to say thank you to him as well, because we wouldn't be sitting here doing our podcasts otherwise, but yeah, so I guess that's another thing, you know,
Unknown:great, great idea. And I think, you know, podcasts are taken off all over the country. And, and, you know, I have a colleague, tip Hudson, who does range range lands is, is is done really well. And it's excellent. So I just think this is a great opportunity. And I think it's a step forward for, you know, our livestock extension community to reach out to in another way to our stakeholders. So you know, I was, I'm just happy you guys had come up with the idea. And, you know, just I think it's going to be a great thing. So
Melelani Oshiro:yeah, we're, we're super excited to have and give it to, you know, just to get everything going like this. It's just really cool.
Shannon Sand:Oh, yeah, we were the setting up process today. And it's been, it's been so exciting.
Melelani Oshiro:So it's, there's so many different projects, I think, right?
Shannon Sand:I was gonna say I was like, So what are a couple of projects over the last 18 years that you've been like, that you've really enjoyed doing? What would be like a highlight if you look back? I mean, that's probably I feel like that's a really hard thing to ask. Yeah. Like if you had to choose a couple of them. What are some ones that you were like, really enjoyed or like, like, I would say this, this podcast is currently for me, like a passion project and something I'm really enjoying maybe Mellie would think that too, but like, so like, over the years, what's something What's a couple? Well, even if it's just a few, like what are one or two projects you've really enjoyed
Unknown:Ah, wow, I
Shannon Sand:know that's asking a lot. I
Unknown:know there's been a lot of projects. Yeah. I think the the one that I have enjoyed the most and I that I got the most pleasure out of was our Pacific Island outreach project. And, you know, we had a lot of funding we got, we have three grants that cover that span of, from 2009 to 2013 14 1314. Yeah. So yeah, 14, I think was last year of our funding. And in that project, you know, we reached out, we did work in Guam, the Marianas Islands. Palau, in the Federated States of Micronesia, and Hawaii, and we engage livestock producers from across all of those islands. And we had workshops. We did research projects we did. We had some comp, we had a couple of conference conferences, we brought people here, we took people there. And there was just this, this great interplay of all of these great, wonderful livestock people from all over the islands. And I mean, truly, that was probably the highlight of one of the things that I had, you know, that we had done. And as a group, we had, I think, at one point, we had nine agents and specialists on board as a team. So I mean, it was very collaborative. We collaborated with Guam University of Guam, Northern Marianas college, the College and Palau and the college. For the Federated States of Micronesia, we had, we have people from all of those as as part of that, so usually collaborative. And, you know, we produced a lot of a lot of material, not a lot of good relationships, that we that we still have, I mean, I still talk with some of the folks out in the Marianas Islands and in Guam. And and my wife comes from Guam.
Shannon Sand:That means you better like
Unknown:another great thing that came out of my wife. But yeah, I mean, it was just a really pleasurable project. And, you know, that one came about because I another project that I guess I have done over the years. I've tried to make it a consistent thing, but it gets it's hard to, it's hard to keep it going, the keep the funding coming. But I have a Hawaii grazing livestock management academy that I do, and I and I had put together these binders and all this material, and had taught a couple of these programs around. And, you know, the Pacific Island outreach project came about because Glenn and I were talking about this Hawaii grazing livestock management cat Academy, and he says, you know, he says you ought to do that for the Pacific Islands. And so with his encouragement and guidance, I went and found some funding for that through this. The first set of funding we had was from the socially disadvantaged Farmer and Rancher rancher program. By the time we were done that we had over a million dollars in funding to do those different projects that we did out there. So yeah, it's a great project. I think that one was really pleasurable I think you know, as memorable I think that it's again it's hard and right now this one is you know, two lines Spielberg project is is at the forefront of everything it's not a pleasure to do I mean, I mean, I enjoy the work and I enjoy the research and I enjoy I enjoy the process of it all but I I so wish this two lines Middleburg was not here. Yeah, I mean, I would rather not have this project because this this past is is in my in my viewpoint, this past is as big as bad a problem as the rapid ohia death. So it is potentially going to be devastating to the industry here and my gosh, there's there's so much work to do. And there's so much to learn about. Yeah, how to deal with this pest.
Shannon Sand:Wow. And it's something that I feel like we've been hearing a lot about lately, like the two sides. It'll bug and like, my background is like econ and like business. But what exactly is it? And like, how does it affect everything? Like, you know, what is it and why is it so important?
Unknown:Yeah, so that the two lines beetle bug is, is an it's an insect. It's a, it's specifically feeds on grasses. So it's a very host specific pest.
Shannon Sand:So is it only so it's only specific types and varieties of grasses then so
Unknown:it doesn't feed on, it doesn't feed on trees or flowers in your garden, it will write on vegetable plants, it feeds on grasses, what we're finding out is that, you know, some grasses are highly susceptible to it's feeding, other grasses, tin, other grasses can be resistant to it. And so we've been doing, we've been doing some research to figure out, you know, what the levels of resistance are in different types of grasses that occur here, why, and some different varieties of grasses that are being developed in South America where there's a lot of these grass feeding, spittle bugs, not just two lines, but a bug, but different, different species of Spielberg. And they're dealing with that on a much bigger level than we are. Yeah. And because of that, they, their approach to dealing with the spindle bug is to develop grasses that are both nutritious for livestock and but are resistant to spindle bug feeding. And so we've we've been, we've been able to cooperate with a couple different companies down in South America and bring in some of these different varieties for testing. And so, so the two lines doodlebug has to has three phases. One is an egg, when the egg hatches the nymph, which lives in a spindle mass at the base of the grass, so it's like somebody spit on the ground. That's what they live in. It looks just like that. That's why it's called the spill, man.
Shannon Sand:For those of you listening, I just made a face and I was like, Yeah,
Melelani Oshiro:but that's the perfect way to describe it. Because not only what it looks like is it looks like a bunch of spit. It's exactly what it is.
Unknown:And actually, it's your excrement. Yep, oh, so even even more. So they basically, they basically suck up the fluids from the nibs live off of the roots, and they attach the roots and they, they have a little proboscis that they inject into the plant, and then they suck up the, the fluids from the xylem tissue of the root. And then they exude that out their rectum. And then they back into that, and then they live in that and it protects them keeps them from drying out protects them from predators. And this is all at the soil surface. So which is very important in distinguishing between other types of spindle bugs. We have some we have two other varieties of spindle, but we have more than one. Okay, yeah, but only the two lines. doodlebug causes damage to the grasses the other to the other to feed on different plants, and they don't really cause any damage. They've been here for a long time, actually. And so there, they haven't caused any problems or damage, but the two lines doodlebug is very damaging. So the nymphs go through five instar stages. And then they and then they become an adult and then the adults jump and they fly and they're black, they have two orange bands or red bands across their back. And that's how you identify them. And but the adults feed on the leaf material and they they don't eat the leaves, but they they inject their proboscis into the xylem tissue of the leaf. And they suck on the fluid. Now like
Shannon Sand:pyar bug bait like I don't have the scientific the same kind of scientific background you guys do. So I'm going to relate it to what I can think of.
Unknown:Right? Well, I mean, that's, that's it, they're they're like a vampire bug and they and so they're sucking this island fluid out and but for them to be able to utilize the xylem fluid which is high in carbohydrates. Oh, they use they use an enzyme, an enzyme that breaks down that carbohydrates into simple sugars. And in the process of doing that and so they basically they basically inject that into the plant prior to it coming into their proboscis right and the plant design of tissue is moving fluid up and down that that leaf it's pulling that enzyme up through the leaf material and down through the loose leaf material. What does it mean yet at the same time, kind of essentially, yeah, essentially the enzyme, the enzyme is basically poisoning the plant, what happens is, is that enzyme starts to break down the cell walls within the plant tissue. And then the cell breaks. And it's because it's in the leaf, it can no longer photosynthesize. And so it's shuts down photosynthesis. If it's not photosynthesizing, the carbohydrates are not getting to the root. And so what happens is the root masses start to die. And then you lose the whole plant if the feeding pressures too high. And so that's what's happening. And it happens to all plants that way, it all grasses that way when they feed, but some seem to be a little bit more resistant than others. Or maybe the maybe the bug doesn't feed on them at as high intensity as they do. So Kokuyo grass and pengelola. Grass, yeah, with a couple others have shown that they're very susceptible to the feeding of the spiddal bug. So they're
Shannon Sand:the cotton candy to the to the to line spiddal bug, whereas some other variety might be spinach, and
Unknown:it's a good way to look at it. I mean, you know, and that's the same for our livestock. I mean, you and pengelola grass are our best forage grasses in the state. And in fact, they pull Yeah,
Shannon Sand:they're really high nutrition content, I think, aren't they are
Unknown:yes, yes, they are. I mean, you know, cochlea grass can vary between 12 and almost 20% crude protein, very digestible. Very good quality. I mean, it may ilani, were we finished, we can finish cattle on on that, and 24 months up to about 1200 pounds. So, you know, that's so in Kukui grass is extremely important in the state because, you know, supporting probably anywhere from 60 to 75% of the cattle in the state. And most of that is here in the Wyoming area. And there's other islands have areas of cochlea grass, too. But right now, that little bug is only on the Big Island, and right now only in the Kona area, but it's rapidly moving. So it's it's expanding its range by about 35,000 acres a year. Whoa. And yeah, so yeah, that's fast, and it's faster than we can adjust to it.
Shannon Sand:Like the limitations in terms of everything going on just in the last over a year now. And then, like funding and stuff, I would imagine it, it's a hard thing to keep up with.
Unknown:Yeah, I mean, well, and, and that's the thing. I mean, it's it's not something we can keep up with. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's moving at a pace that we can't, you can't reestablish pastures fast enough. And that, yes, you know, you can't actually replant and introduce new grasses into the systems as fast as it's moving. So, you know, we're trying to figure out different ways to deal with manage it.
Melelani Oshiro:Can we take a step back, you talked about the adult bugs, and I think that's an important part to talk about the adults in the nip. So because for posts folks to understand that, it's, you know, I always thought when we first started this, oh, that nymphs are gonna cause the most damage to our grass, but it's actually not true, right? Because it's the adults that are actually causing the higher impact.
Unknown:Yeah, yeah, that's true. I think that there's some things that we just don't know about the past. And, you know, so I just back up even further. So, you know, the two lines fiddle bug comes from the southeast United States, it's native to that area, and they, they have known about this, this grass feeding two lines, spiddal bug for a very long time. There's, there's data that goes back into the 50s on the two lines, spiddal bug. But and they've done some work with them. But you know, it was never a major issue. It was enough for them to say, Well, okay, well, here's a problem. These show up every so often, and they become a pest. But other times, you're not a pest and they're just there and they're, you know, just sort of a background population.
Shannon Sand:Is there like a natural predator in the mainland that there's not here?
Unknown:Well, you know, what happens is what I think happens is, is that in the southeast United States, you still get cold winters. Yeah, you know, you can have frost and you can have snow and you can have the ground frozen. So the adults lay their eggs in the ground. And I think and then and then overwinter the pest is in a diet POS phase, where they're not active, and so the age stay in diapause. And I think in I think in those cold winters, you get a reduction in the population the age die. They never hatch. So the next year's population is much reduced. We don't have that situation here. So what we have seen, and what we've documented is that any area where you're at the population, one year over the next increases exponentially. So we start with, we start with, you know, maybe the first outbreak is, you know, we find maybe 10 or 15 nymphs per square meter, the second generation, we might have 30, or 40, or nymphs per square meter, then we go into diapause. The next year, what happens is, is that the population is now you know, close to 200 names per square meter, right? At all, I would say probably 99% of those names make it to adulthood. And so when you have those high level, so, we have found that, for example, cochlea grass isn't damaged below about 60 nymphs per square meter, you know, it's just, there's some, there's some damage, but it doesn't die off, it doesn't die. But if you get over 60, nips per square meter, we get a complete population crash of that Kokuyo grass, it completely disappears from the system. You can't there's no roots left, there's no in Kukui grass has a very strongly rise on his grass, and it just disappears from the system. And so it's the adults that are doing the feeding and the damage, I think it's their feeding pressure, because they feed off of the leaf material, right, and it's interfering with photosynthesis. The nymphs, I think, still inject amylase, the the enzyme into the root, but because they're feeding off of the root, there's no dead, there's no photosynthesis stopped and photosynthetic processing, right. It's the leaf feeding that causes the damage. At best, the nymphs cause maybe some water stressed with the plant, right, because they're interfering with, with fluids moving from the roots up to the leaf material. But because the leaves are important for photosynthesis, when the when the feeding starts in there, and those die back, that's where we get the death of the plants or their injection of that amylase into that leaf materials killing that topping that photosynthetic process.
Shannon Sand:It sounds like there are like there needs. There's a lot of like research that still kind of needs to be done and like projects related to that. So are you working on? I'm assuming you're working on some. So what are some projects that related to two lines middleburgh that you've been working on lately?
Unknown:Yeah, well, a lot of our first initial efforts Well, once we got the greenhouse up and going, Yeah, took a lot of work to get the greenhouse in shape. But we started with looking at host plant specificity. And so we wanted to look at at resistance of different grasses. So we had an array of different grasses, our graduate students, Shannon Wilson, done a tremendous work on this project, she's done a really great job. And so she looked at an array of different grasses and introduced spittle bugs to those grasses, and followed them for a number of weeks to see how much damage they could take or how much feeding pressure they could take before they were damaged. And so we documented that this last year, we documented that on a host of grasses that are here in Hawaii, and our typical grazing plants. And we compare that with a rec area brizantha, which is a variety comando, which has shown that it's got some resistance to spilled on feeding, then. And as an aside, that particular grass is actually one the grass that they're using as a foundation to develop other spiddal Bug resistant grasses. Oh wow. And so this year, we're doing the same trials again, to and comparing that with three grasses that come out of well actually, for grasses that come out of South America to from a company called barenbrug. Another another two grasses come out of a company called seaot. And they all have spiddal Bug resistance to them. And then and then we're doing another set another set of grasses that are local here to to figure out you know which grasses are going to be resistant and, and the point of that is is that when the cochlea got rascals out, that just opens up everything to a whole an array of different kinds of weeds that come in and they they populate very fast you know, the first one that comes in typically As fireweed it can, you know, we've seen We've seen the cochlea grass cover go from 90% cover, down to 2% cover that in that same process we've seen fireweed go from 5% Cover up to 90% cover in that in that process. So it's it's almost an exact exchange for Kukui grass for fire wheat. And other areas. There's different weeds like Paul McCartney, there's the there's mares tail, there's balloon plant, there's all kinds of weeds that come in. And some of them are just terrible. They're worse than, you know, than anything
Shannon Sand:on all the islands or just big island or
Unknown:Nope, just the big island so far. You know, knock on wood, I mean, it just, you know, that it stays on the Big Island. And I don't wish that on the Big Island. But, you know, we don't want it on the other islands. And, you know, we'd like to be able to stop it. So right now, it's just in the corner area. Its range right now is at about 180,000 acres. And but like I said, it's it's spreading at about 35,000 acres a year.
Shannon Sand:So I was gonna ask too, so is it like one of those things? Like if I'm driving, let's say, I'm driving on the highway, and I pick up two or three, like on my vehicle, just from whatever or like a tour stops and takes a photo? Or like, Is that a possibility to pick them up and spread them that way? Or like,
Unknown:yeah, it is a possibility. It is a possibility. The thing about you know, the nymphs for two lines spit above the nymphs aren't they don't move very fast. They're very slow. They don't, they're not going to attach themselves to something and take a ride.
Melelani Oshiro:And they kind of do their mass their spin on this as well. They need to have that moisture to survive. Right.
Unknown:So Right. Yeah, exactly. And so if they're outside of that spindle mass, they don't live very long. The adults are really skittish. They jump and they fly. And they're they don't sit still very long. They're harmless. Yep, they do. Another name for Ms. froghoppers is a jump around, right. So they're really skittish. They they're not going to, they're not going to land on the hood of a pickup and ride 40 Miles somewhere, you know, they're going to jump off before you even get out of the past. That, so we're the possibility that you could transport them. And this is what we need to get out to the community is if you drive into into a pasture and you get out and your door is open, there's a possibility that an adult could fly in, then you shut the doors and they're inside. You could transport one that way, right? Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Yeah, but it's not likely. So if you're just driving down the highway, you're not going to pick up a two line spindle Buck 60 miles an hour, and carry them for the next 40 Not gonna happen.
Shannon Sand:But if you go to your neighbors, and you have coffee, and like you guys go check the cows together, I'm just thinking of my dad, like, he'll go to my uncles and like, they'll go hang out and like, look at the cows, but then they'll go home and like my uncle will come over to my desk, you know, like that. Like, is that a possibility of spreading it that way?
Unknown:Yeah, it is. Right? We have to we have to maintain that that is a possibility. I think the probability of that is pretty low, low. Okay. I think the probability is low. And the mainly because they're just too skittish. I mean, okay, you know, now, I think some exceptions exist. So we have seen adults that get down in the bed of a truck. And, and, you know, where the air isn't moving, and whatever, and they, and they've gone and they hitched a ride for a short distance, right? It's possible that, for example, somebody that takes a trailer into a pasture, or horse trailer or something like that, that the bugs could get into that trailer, maybe get down into the bedding of the trailer or into, you know, down on the floorboards or something like that and hit your ride. That's a possibility. They could hit you right inside the cab. They, they could hit your ride, say in some gear or something like that. If they got in and got trapped, you know, they're not going to want to stay there. If you open it up in the field, they probably would fly out but not where they want to be. So So that's that, like I said, that's a possibility. But I think it's not as probable as you'd expect
Melelani Oshiro:to know Yeah, and we talked about this stuff with geneia there. The last one was talking about biosecurity when not on your farm. And this is I think one of the things that people have to consider if you have it on your place. Just be cautious, be aware. Check your gear, if you can maintain that you have gear just for your farm, use it just for your farm, checking your your trailers and stuff before you leave your place. And if you know especially if you know you're going out to someone else's place, you know to just be cautious of that. That's that I think that's all part of our biosecurity and I think I'm Going through this project, I mean, you know, going out in the beginnings when we were first starting to do the surveys, and now you see some, I see some of the images, it's quite devastating to see these pastures that have gone, like Mark said, from 90%, Kikuyu to 5% Kikko. You know, in those some of those areas, what I guess some of the other things, I mean, people have to think about those types of things is not trying to transport these bugs back and forth, you know, checking your gear and stuff, but also being cautious of, you know, what is what, what worries me mark, and what I think about is, oh, I'm going over the my pops house, you know, and he's got this plant for me, he lives in an area that's got spiddal. And he's like, No, take this plant here, take this, I made this for you, or whatever, you know, and you don't know what could be in that soil. So I think if you are in those areas, I mean, is that another concern? I mean, is that something else that people should think about moving other? You know, you're not maybe they're not having livestock, but they live near areas that do have livestock pastures and the Spirit always in that area? So
Unknown:yeah, that's an excellent point, LA, the biosecurity thing is that, you know, if you're in the corner area, and anybody in the corner area, and it doesn't matter if you're a rancher, if you're a homeowner, everybody in the corner area, needs to do two things. One thing is be aware of what two lines fiddle bug is that it's there. And the other thing is to be alert, you know, to understand that, you know, alert, meaning you're looking for it, right, you're paying attention to where that bug is. So you don't accidentally trap it into your vehicle and carry it to Kona or to Waimea being aware and alert to the presence of that bug, I think would go a long ways. I think the third possibility for spreading this is actually the scariest and probably the one that will be the one that spreads this across the island. And that is you're laying in the soil, and they can go into diapause. So they could be there. And they're microscopic, the eggs are microscopic, you can't see. You're not going to go through the soil and say, oh, there's an egg, right? Yes. You can't you can't do that. They're microscopic. So it's possible. And probable, more probable than transporting an adult. You know, just another quick point on the adults, they only live for two weeks. Yeah. Oh, you know, they have a very short lifespan. And then that two weeks female is gonna lay about 200 eggs, soil that could have 200 eggs in it, you know, from one one female. So I think that the way it's going to get transported is that somebody is going to move plant material and soil material from one plant from Kona. around the island, and where I think it's going to happen, where the where the biggest possibility is people that raise plants for for landscaping, you know, grass, they transport turf all over the island. Now, I don't know if they have two lines doodlebug some of the golf courses have already said that they've got two lines beetle bug or they've they've recognized two lines put a bug in the area. So moving plant material out of the corner area is the way that I think is is going to transport that and ranchers aren't transporting plant material. But the the landscaping industry is. And so that's that's one that I'm really worried about. Yeah, yeah. No,
Melelani Oshiro:that's, that's important, I think for folks to think about right. So we want to say that it's never going to get anywhere else. But we kind of know that in the end, eventually it will be around our island. So what other things I guess can we share with producers that maybe don't have it, they can start to kind of think proactively about what they can do to lessen the impact if two lines but about does come into their areas. What should they be thinking about at this point? Right. Yeah.
Unknown:So you know, so for for ranchers, where the two lines Middleburg is not at right now is? Again, the first thing is just to be aware. You know, there's there's resources out there now that we've been putting out about two lines, Bill bugs, so there's pictures. There's some presentations that talk about it that shows the adults that show the nymphs there's presentations out there that show what the damage looks like and how the damage progresses through time. One is really critical for all livestock producers on the Big Island. And the other islands I mean, it got here that if you're in an area that bug is not there. Now the first thing you want to do is be aware educate yourself about what the bug looks like what the damage looks like. Right? So you can be aware so you can be scanning your pasture lands and so when you and and to be alert to the possibility of damage in your pastures. If you start to see dead patches of grass, crop up where they shouldn't be. Go take a look and go take a look beans get down off your horse or out of your pickup or off the four wheeler and dig down through the grass and look to see if there are spindle masses or to see if there's an adult living around in the area. If you have a brown patch of grass. And that's where spittle bugs have been feeding. It's because the adults are feeding in that column of grass, they feed at the leaf, they go down to the bottom and they lay their eggs, they come up and they feed and they lay their eggs, they don't move, because as long as the grass is green, there's good feed there. By the time the patch is brown and dead, they've laid all their eggs, the adult has died. And down below is going to be the nymphs. And that's what you got to look for. If you see if you see dead grass and you identify two lines spiddal bug in your pastures. Give me a call. And let's have a conversation about you know how big they are, he is where are the areas at one, I want to document that so that we can track the spread of this past. So that we can warn people in advance, that's really what we want to do is be able to tell people look, it's here, you should be being prepared for this. And then secondly, we'll talk about, you know, some management practice tactics that you can use to try to get the population under control and prevent it from getting to a point where, you know, it's going to wipe out your pastures, you know, so there's some different types of management decisions. There's, we have some grazing management recommendations, pesticides that are labeled for pasture and will kill adult spiddal bugs. But again, it's really important that and I, you know, we're cautious about telling people to utilize pesticides, mainly because the pesticides are broad scale, they kill all insects, they don't just kill this little bug. So they'll kill all the beneficial insects too. And if you see one spiddal bug, and you're tempted to go out and spray an entire pasture, you don't know if you're, you know, killing enough of the adults to mourn the cost of the pesticide. Right. Right. Right. So you've got to know what the population is and how much area you're going to actually spray if you're going to do that it's got to be targeted. So you know, we, if we're recommending pesticides, it's targeted, and strategically used. And so, but grazing management can be applied, there's we have some protocols for that. But other than that, right now, we just don't have any other major tools to deal with this. So well, if the population comes in the pasture is destroyed, then then there's other things that have to be other steps that have to be done.
Melelani Oshiro:Yeah, I think you all Yeah, and like you said, there's, I think still a lot more to be learned about how you're going to manage the two lines, but a bug in just how it's going to manage itself here in our climates and in our pastures. Maybe we can mitigate the loss somehow. Right. One thing I do want you to maybe talk a little bit about is you're developing a app, correct?
Unknown:Yeah, I was I was actually, we've been working on a smartphone application that will be available through Apple and Google Play, I wanted to build into it several different things. One, I wanted to be able to, I wanted users to be able to be in the field be able to take a picture, geo locate a spiddal bug, that then would, that would they would be able to log that information, they would have a map, you know, you think about from the ranchers perspective. I mean, if they're on your ranch, and you go out and you identify an area that's got two lines, fiddle bug, you could click it, take a picture, and it would geo reference that and then you could, you know, in the app, you can write some notes about it, and you can talk, you know, set up, you know, how much area is being damaged. And there's several steps there. But it would all be logged into your your use for your use, you'll be able to see your map your ranch. And but for us, it would come into a program where we could on a on a full scale, we could we could track the movement. So we could get movement vectors for the spittle bug, so we could predict when it's going to reach a certain area. We could preempt it maybe and do some management tactics that maybe wait a minute, the impact of the past before it got there. So that's one aspect of the app is is the ability to geo reference map and identify two lines, spittle bug, one part of the app is just going to be informational. This is two nice little bug and here's how it's different from these other two. So you could go through a process and positively identify two lines middleburgh and distinguish between the others. One is just informational in terms of giving basic ecology and biology of the two lines middleburgh. But probably the more important aspect is it'll have a management decision support tool built into that. So what will what the the ability of the app then would be to We'll take you through some protocols to basically determine how big the population is, how big the population will be when the adults urge. And then predict sort of windows of time, when you are at the greatest risk of damage. And it all will be based off of the nymphs, the age of the nymphs, grouping them into three to three age classes, so that we can then provide windows of time. So if you're, if your population is primarily in the first and second instar stages, then you know, you've got somewhere between 50 and 40 days before you start to see the emergence of adults that are at a level that are going to cause a significant amount of damage. On the other hand, if they're all in and stars three and four, then you've got somewhere between 20 and 10 days, before they move you get, you get to the point where you're going to have significant damage. So you could start figuring out what that window of time is that you're most vulnerable for damage. Right, by by tracking that population.
Shannon Sand:Are you at a point of beta testing potentially yet? Or like,
Unknown:oh, no, no, no. So hafting. Right, now the app is still working with a company. They're doing all of the stuff, I'm just providing all the information. Nice, I think, I think we're probably looking at some time in the fall before this is actually going to be ready.
Shannon Sand:developing an app is a lot and kind of given all that you want it to do in terms of track tracking, and then get the information so that you can do the simulation models and get predictions. I was like, that's gonna be awesome, though, because potentially, I could help a lot of people in terms of man,
Unknown:well, that's the thing, you know, so so we wanted something for the ranchers as a tool for them. So if they're going out, and they're spending the time to look for this, they can document the population size. And then they can, they can plan, they can plan their grazing around that they can play your their management tactics around that we have a whole series of recommendations based on whatever level of population and damage class that they're going to be in. And that could be mapped across the ranch, so they could look at their whole ranch, and they can look at wherever the spittle bug is at, they could plan their grazing to go in impact those areas. There. So I think it'll be a powerful tool. It's going to require some training to use, it's going to require it's going to it's going to require some beta testing. So be trying to enlist, you know, ranchers to try it out. I think really, and one important point, I think out of all of this is that the two lines spiddal bug, and we're talking about the ranch is being impacted. And I really want to stress that this is not just a rancher problem. This is a problem that belongs to the state. Yeah, yeah, this is a problem that affects everybody in Hawaii. If you're concerned about food security in the state, and you should be concerned about the two lines middleburgh If you're concerned about the natural resources in this state, then you need to be concerned about the two lines Spielberg if you're if you're thinking about, you know, all of the ecosystem services that we get from our landscapes, then you need to be concerned about the two lines middle bone. This is not just a rancher problem. It's affecting ranch land because that's where we discovered it first, but it's also affecting natural resource areas that forest reserve areas. It's affecting lawns. Lando
Shannon Sand:was gonna say you even mentioned like nurseries and golf courses and stuff. And I was like, I mean, tourism is like the number one industry in this day, you know, so
Unknown:so so if you're in this state, you need to be concerned about to lightspeed above bottom line. It's that level of concern that we need to have in the state. And I think, in the Hawaii, cattlemen, counseled by the way, it's been doing an outstanding job pushing the importance of activity action on the two lines Bill bug and to and I think the legislature has jumped on board they, you know, it's moved through the house, it's in the Senate. I'm not sure exactly where the bill is. But there's a bill for two lines Bill bug to provide funding from for the Hawaii Department of Agriculture, to support management and research and activities to get this beetle bug under control. So legislature is on board and Hawaii Kettlemans Council has done an absolutely outstanding Nicole Galassi I just got to say her name because she's done an outstanding job pushing those issues and keeping that at the forefront of the industry and of the legislature. So, you know, this is this, just you know, it's not just a rancher problem, it's a state problem and then Everybody ought to be concerned about it.
Melelani Oshiro:So much more than we could talk about, like the two lines, but a bug, let me tell you, there's so much, so much more that we could talk about. But there's just
Shannon Sand:like, that's a lot of information. I feel like we kind of need to have a follow up episode at some future with Mark.
Melelani Oshiro:Definitely, especially when you get your app going and ready to launch that you definitely should have you come back and talk more about it. But thank you very much for joining us today. Mark, is there anything else you want to share with anybody about the takeaways you have from the project with the two lines, but
Unknown:I think the biggest takeaway, I think, as you know, for the ranchers, be aware, be alert, get educated about it. And we're trying to provide as much information out there as we can NRCS Carolyn long been putting out some videos and stuff. So I think we're trying to get the information out so that we get enough as many people as possible to be aware and, and alert to the spiddal bug, biggest thing is that I just said earlier, it's not a rancher problem, it's a state problem. Everybody's gotta be on board, right? Everybody's gonna be getting to the solution for this thing, we're gonna lose our ranch lands, we're gonna lose our pastures. If we don't get if we don't get on top of this thing. And it's a lot of work to do. There's a lot of things there to do. And we're trying to do as as much as we can, with the funding that we have, and learn about it. So that we've got some, you know, management objectives. I think those are the things you know, if you don't have it right now, be alert. Be aware, get educated. If you are not a rancher, it's still your problem. Yeah, yeah, about food security
Shannon Sand:faster, right. Even if you're not a rancher, it's still it's still an issue. And everyone should be aware,
Melelani Oshiro:you live here? Definitely. It's definitely and especially if you're in those areas that are already impacted. And you know, you have just because you're a homeowner, it doesn't mean that you you could not transport these things around the island or it doesn't mean it's not going to impact you either. So yeah, that's important thing. Well, thanks so much Mark for you
Unknown:know, thank you guys. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed it. This was good just to have a conversation. And I enjoyed it. Congratulations to you guys for getting this thing off the ground and really, really proud of it
Shannon Sand:off the ground. We appreciate it.
Unknown:Yeah. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yes,
Shannon Sand:and thank you to everybody for listening. Make sure to join our Facebook page, the livestock extension group if you haven't already, and be sure to visit the U H. CTAHR. Extension website and our YouTube channel listed in the show notes.
Melelani Oshiro:For additional information and links to the web. For more information about this topic, you can see the Hawaii range lands website which will also be listed in our show notes at the podcast and the description box of our YouTube page. Thanks for listening to the livestock Walaau
Shannon Sand:Before we go show some love for your favorite podcast by leaving us a review on Apple podcasts then stay tuned for next month's podcast.
Melelani Oshiro:Thanks everybody. I'll wait hold to next time.
Unknown:Thanks Mahalo.