In todays episode we discuss one of the most asked about questions when clients start their journey with their project – To renovate or knockdown and start fresh. We compare the pro and cons of both processes and what’s right for your project.
In todays episode we discuss one of the most asked about questions when clients start their journey with their project – To renovate or knockdown and start fresh. We compare the pro and cons of both processes and what’s right for your project.
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Welcome to building with Bloomberg, that design and renovation podcast brought to you by Christian Case. And Jeremy Thomas said, directors of blue bird design and build highlighting the do's and don'ts of renovating or building your dream home. This podcast will give you the insight has gone to the home building journey, as well as interviewing other industry specialists, Christian and Jeremy bring the knowledge and expertise to the table for you.
The people. Now let's get into this episode. And if you enjoy, please like share and
[00:00:32] Speaker 2: subscribe. Hi, welcome back to building with blue bird. You here with Christian and Jeremy. And today we've got episode eight, which is where we're going to discuss renovating versus building
[00:00:43] Speaker 1: a new home. Yeah. So this is probably a question.
We get asked a lot when people approach us and they don't know what. Whether they rent out an existing property or they start over from scratch and build you.
[00:00:54] Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess the first step of that is the design process and the differences that we would say with what's involved in designing a new home, or maybe just finding a pre finished set of plans that you like, that will fit on your blog.
Thus what's involved with the planning stages for a small or large scour innovation. What do you think, sort of the main differences there?
[00:01:17] Speaker 1: Firstly, it's cost obviously for a Renno design. It normally costs you more because you've got to go out and do a site measure of the existing property. And then also, depending if you've got it sort of a turn key or a predesigned product, like you mentioned, You've got a set of plans there that maybe get included in your bills.
So you don't have to actually pay for that design. And then you've obviously got a new build, which is then normally little bit less work in terms of design work, but can actually be a little bit harder because you've got no framework to start with. And there's so many ideas you can play with on a block.
So it really comes down to what can you actually do with the property and where your budget sits and what's the most efficient for you?
[00:01:57] Speaker 2: Yeah. And what about the consultants for the different designs? It's a pretty much all the same apart from an engineer, like obviously with a renovation engineering's typically a bit harder than a new build because you've got to sort of go backwards and work out how you're going to support the house or extend off it first before you sort of work out the new areas.
[00:02:16] Speaker 1: Yeah. So the initial consultants upfront are normally a little bit higher when it comes to a Reno, because obviously you've got survey for both Reno or. But then, yeah, as you said, engineering, you've got to go back out and actually look at the property and review it and then draw the existing structure itself and then go forward.
Whereas if it's a brand new, it's quite easy for them to just to do it from the office without having to actually go to site or start over. But either way you need a soil test for both. And then obviously it comes down to building approval as well, because there's a little bit more in a new home because you're knocking down an existing home, which you need approvals.
And then also you need to start for building approval itself for a new dwelling and renovation as well. So, and I guess
[00:02:59] Speaker 2: they are the main thing between a RNO and a new home, depending on the scale of it is the cost or. Renovation. We have to go back so many steps before we start going forward. I think we've had a few clients that have started with a, like an old Queenslander or colonial thinking.
They're going to do this magical renovation and then get designs done through PayPal and. When they actually realize the costs involved with the renovation, they sometimes decide that it's going to be better for them and maybe not more cost effective, but a better end product to get rid of it if they can and start new.
[00:03:37] Speaker 1: Yeah. So if it's, um, say for an example, you've got an existing house and you have to go back through it and strip every bit of wall because it's as Bestos or strip all the bathrooms and putting new roof on and then lift it. You're stuck to that footprint to start with. And then you're also going backwards before you go forward.
So you could be spending 60, 70 grand just in demo costs and raising it to get to a certain point. Where is, if you start a brand new one, you don't have to go through that sort of stuff. You just could knock the house down and start over, or you've got a brand new block of land and you don't have to worry about knocking it down
[00:04:09] Speaker 2: at all.
Yeah. Especially with a rise in build, like, remember to rise and raise stump and steal a house. It used to be like, 20 20, 25 grand going back a couple of years now, it feels like that's easily doubled up into 40 mid forties.
[00:04:23] Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. So you're sort of paying to use the existing structure. And the thing is, if it's not ideal or it's not efficient, doesn't work the way you want it to.
Then what's the point of holding onto it, obviously, depending in Brisbane here and also throughout Queensland, depending on where you're actually located. Sometimes you can't actually change some of the house. If it's a character. Counsel and not fans of you ripping out too much of it. They want you to keep the existing heritage of the house and the street frontage.
So there's get some big monstrosity in the middle of the street that changes the streetscape.
[00:04:54] Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the jobs we're working on at the moment at Graceville was. They were looking to do a Reno at the start weren't they, when you started chatting
[00:05:02] Speaker 1: with them. So yeah, the house was obviously ideal for the time that they had it, but as the family grew, then it wasn't the most efficient layout in terms of cross ventilation lighting.
And then they were looking to renovate and by the time we looked. By the time we removed everything, it just be the frame that's left and we'd have to rejig the frame to get it to the way they wanted it. So there was no point. It was just more cost-effective to knock it down, then you start over and so you can get a better outcome, I guess.
Yeah.
[00:05:30] Speaker 2: And I mean, from a building point of view, when you're with a renovation, if we're trying to be budget conscious with the existing structure, we always try and convince people to sort of not change old walls. Well lawns and structural elements within a billboard. If it's a rise and build, like leaving of the upstairs is always a good idea as it is.
And just trying to work with what you've got rather than changing wall frames and load-bearing walls and stuff. Cause that's where you really start to chew up additional labor that you sort of don't really say that gain from. Cause you've sort of go backwards and then go forwards again.
[00:06:03] Speaker 1: Anything structural.
Adds quite a bit of cost to the build. So by the time you have to get an engineer involved and then moving walls around, and then obviously you don't know what's happening with the roof or the roof structure is going to have to change. It can add quite a bit of a, a cost to it. So you're sort of going backwards to go forwards.
So it's sort of weighing up, but they probably, the first thing you need to worry about is can you actually knock it down? Especially, yeah, here in Queensland, a lot of our stuff's protected and depending on the zoning,
[00:06:34] Speaker 2: which area you're in, which I realize you've got yes. Wall
[00:06:39] Speaker 1: 46. Yeah. And then also 11, nine and 11 as well.
So there's all council maps that you can look at all the before and after photos of the years. But just because it's not on there doesn't mean you can't, but it's just able to be removed. So we normally get a town planner or a certifier involved from the beginning before we, um, move from. And then get the green light from them.
Cause there's no point designing everything and then finding out you can't actually remove the house or you can't change too much of the facade. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So your first point of call is obviously get a builder out there or the designer out there and get them to speak to their town planner and let you know what you can actually do.
And not do before, actually engaging someone in moving ahead with design. We're
[00:07:19] Speaker 2: spending money on design and consultants before you.
[00:07:24] Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you don't want to get all excited and then find out I know you can't knock it down. You just spent six months designing
[00:07:29] Speaker 2: this break and then knock over this ad in hundreds cottage.
[00:07:32] Speaker 1: It's full of asbestos and wholesale plaster and all the nice old school insulation in the roof. So yeah, it's just basically figuring out what you can and can't do with your block and then go from there and then assess your costs. Yeah.
[00:07:45] Speaker 2: And I guess timeframes are something that are real drama at the moment.
What are we sort of mid may 20, 22 and timber shortages are sort of ramping back up again in terms of floor frames and things like that. So, If you're thinking about a renovation and you're talking about a raise and building underneath that's something that can probably be sort of kicked off pretty quickly after it's been drawn and approved because wall frames, aren't a huge problem at the moment, stick timber.
But if you're talking about doing a big extension or. Uh, brain. Yeah. Brand new home, Tim before systems are a real drama at the moment. So if you're sort of talking about a job like that, that's got a new floor system and trusses and things like that. You've really got to account for those longer lead times.
[00:08:32] Speaker 1: So, yeah. So that's what like three months at the moment?
[00:08:35] Speaker 2: Yeah. Roughly. Yeah. Roughly speaking from order.
[00:08:38] Speaker 1: Yeah. So you can, if you're going to do a Reno, you can start the raising of the house and the steel underneath and the slide. Which will give you a few months to order. And then, so while you're waiting for your additional materials to come along.
Yeah. So at the moment, I guess Reno's as well, depending on the size of the existing house, normally the upper floors you reused anyway. So it's just got steel in there to support it now, which saves a lot of money, I guess, in terms of. Pushing out the back a little bit more or waiting on that structure, which is a yeah.
Big delay at the moment. So, yeah, but in saying that if you're looking to do a new build, I guess it can actually speed up on the backend so you can order your materials, but you're just waiting for them. We don't start construction. And so you actually start construction a little lighter than normal and then just get a good run on it.
[00:09:24] Speaker 2: Yeah. The other benefit, obviously about a new build is everything is brand new. Yeah. There's
[00:09:29] Speaker 1: no hidden surprises. Yeah.
[00:09:30] Speaker 2: So like quite often when we're doing a rhino will be. Unable at the time when we're sort of looking at it before we start to assess what's happening behind Warframe. Is there a spasticity behind that that's been shaded over with gyprock over the years or things like that.
So it can be sort of little surprises on the way with rhinos that you don't get with new builds. Like is the house, has it been built out of square or have additions over the years been added and they've been built out of square. So then when you're like building in underneath or extending, you're trying to line things up and get everything to marry out, which can be a little bits of additional work along the way.
People have an accounted full.
[00:10:07] Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. And the same way, if you're going to raise a house, a lot of the time we allow to redo a bathroom upstairs just because the house is getting shifted and re leveled a lot of the tiles and those sort of items can crack. Yeah.
[00:10:19] Speaker 2: And same with the waterproofing.
Like, that's always a bit of a concern if you're going to raise a house and you're trying not to touch bathrooms, upstate. What happens to that waterproofing and whose liability is that then if the waterproofing is disturbed.
[00:10:33] Speaker 1: Yeah. Same with also windows. A lot of the windows become stuck and just once the house has plum, but in terms of, yeah, if you're going to go for a new build, everything's just straight brand new.
Yeah. You don't have any case of sticky casement windows, or any of those sorts of items that we come into tackle head on. Sometimes in a lot of the projects we have to allow for. So that's just an additional cost. You've got all our fall for when you renovate an existing home. Yeah, that's right. And also, I guess if you're renovating, depending on the slope of your site can add quite a bit of, um, cost to your new build or your renovation.
So that's something to consider as well. Whereas if you're going for like a turnkey product, you're sort of pay a premium for anything that is not a flat. So that's something definitely to take into account if you're looking to renovate or build a new home. Yeah. That
[00:11:18] Speaker 2: can add a lot of cost to a job as well.
If you're renovating and you've got the existing house still onsite, and you're trying to get machine access to the rear or around the side, or put pools in out the back, that's all things that can take extra time because you don't have direct access. Straight from the straight to get materials in a machinery in and out.
I
[00:11:37] Speaker 1: guess that's probably a good one as well. I guess if you're going to do a new home on a 400, 400 block, they're normally 10 meters wide to put a pool out the back and you've got the existing homeowners extremely hard, I guess, in terms of the house left to get raised up, no matter what. So you wouldn't be able to put a renovation on the back crown in the plunger.
That's the other option, as long as there's no power lines at the front, shout out to
[00:11:56] Speaker 2: the boys, that plan G
[00:11:59] Speaker 1: and then so. Basically in terms of the approvals process here in Brisbane, at least the approval process for a knockdown and rebuild is you need approval, firstly, to knock it down. And then once you've knocked it down, so you get all your approvals in place and then you knock it down.
And then the certifiers, actually, they come out to site to make sure that it's been not. That's been demolished
[00:12:20] Speaker 2: properly demolished properly. Sue is capped off properly, and you've got a form from your plumber saying it's all been done legitimately.
[00:12:27] Speaker 1: Yeah. And so then you go back through the new process for the new build, which is then you've got to apply for a whole new building approval.
You also need your plumbing certificates or new plumbing to the existing services. And then you sort of. Basically, this is when, um, the renovations and the new builds align where the, the, um, building approval process comes into play. And they just go to the same thing where you just get your normal building approval, making sure that you're, um, within your building, footprints are all correct.
And your setbacks are correct. And if it's a
[00:13:00] Speaker 2: BA and not a da and it's for a renovation and your adding new fixtures, do you still need a plumbing?
[00:13:10] Speaker 1: Uh, I think if you're adding additional fixtures, you've got to nominate how many that'll be part of your plumbing approval when they diplomas finished doing all these works.
Yeah. Especially like if there's a combined sewer. There's any services running through your site. You've got to allow for these sort of things which do add additional costs. So, uh, Brisbane had
[00:13:28] Speaker 2: been trying to knock out combine sewers where possible having them get a new plumbing approval, you have to run a new direct line to the SOA and not go back into that combination drain
[00:13:39] Speaker 1: as there's quite a bit to it.
Like, I'm not an expert on that, but yeah, it can add substantial additional costs to the project, uh, services, especially. Yeah. The last thing they want to do is if there's one blockage in someone's house, that it affects somebody else in the same street, or especially if they need to get access through to their backyard.
Which can be a nightmare as well, especially in the older suburbs where the sewer or the storm water is actually down that the rear of the boundaries and it runs so that the houses meet each other in the middle. I guess that can be sort of a nightmare in terms of getting access to it, especially yes.
Service access or manholes or anything.
[00:14:13] Speaker 2: With the new way that has as a sort of built a bit closer to boundaries. Do you know much about the difference between, I guess, a renovation and a new build? Obviously, if it's a new build and we're doing, it's all going to be sort of far added to a 60, 60, 60 FRL or whatever that is like, but what if we're doing something to an existing house and it's.
Claire of that 900 firm boundary, it's going to be fully far right side. Even if it's an existing house, we'll have to like strip those external walls.
[00:14:40] Speaker 1: Yeah, it depends. So you're normally, if you're going to, you just wouldn't touch it. If you're built that close to the boundary, I steer clear of it. But if you're lifting and raising a house and you're moving it within that, they'll make you bring it up to code.
Yeah. Yeah. There's certain setbacks that we need to meet and raising a home. They normally lock it. That is sent to the house on the block. Very rarely will they let you and move it to yeah. Offset it to, uh, within those regulations, because it just adds ridiculous amounts of costs. You've got to actually pull off the cladding, upgrade all your fire ratings so that you can meet those codes just because you've touched it.
[00:15:12] Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's another sort of consultant that you'll have to think about engaging as well. If. Close to boundaries. If you're in 900 mil of boundaries is getting, and if it's a renter, you'll have to get the existing property assessed by the fire consultant. And they'll have to probably do a report on it for you, which will form part of the building approval
[00:15:32] Speaker 1: as well.
Yeah. I would just try to stick to. Counsel guidelines as possible in terms of designing and getting your setbacks, because obviously you don't want to be building on top of each other. Either you take that into account where next door is, habitable rooms are and looking into those sorts of things. So that's probably another consideration, I guess, if you're going to rent over versus going new, whereas the new you can actually determine where everything is at a lot more efficient and cost-effective than if you're going to go rent.
But if your home is in good condition, The front of the house is excellent. Use, want to put a renovation off the back then you can save a lot of money by doing
[00:16:04] Speaker 2: that. Yeah. If you just wanted like a new master wing off the back or master with on suite and things. So
[00:16:11] Speaker 1: the issue is trying to find a house that fits exactly what you want.
Very rarely, I guess, do you find exactly what you want if you're buying a new home or an existing home that you're buying from the market nine times out of 10, got go do some alterations so that you have. It really just depends on what you want to achieve at the end of the day. And what's the most efficient.
So getting the builder and designer slash architect, involved from the get-go and getting that town planner to let you know, if you can knock it down or what your options are, and then obviously cost implications on that. So.
[00:16:44] Speaker 2: Yeah, it just needs some, I guess, some early input when you're starting on that journey to work out, which way you're going to go on, which is going to be the best option for that particular property.
I
[00:16:54] Speaker 1: see a sign. This is about all them consultants working together from the get-go and getting your team. Sounds
[00:17:00] Speaker 2: like a message we've said
[00:17:01] Speaker 1: before a few podcasts prior to that, it was just about the most efficient way to start your building and renovation. The four stages that we sort of apply to make sure that your projects are success.
So basically for this, we've actually got a blog on our website. If you'd want a little bit more information about knockdowns. Yeah. Rebuilds or just new builds in general, small sites, 400 sites and 400 plus sites and all these different things. So if you're after a bit of resources, we've got some stuff on our blog, on our website.
If you're looking for more information, but apart from that, that's probably about it in terms of rentals versus new homes. Have you got anything else? You'd like.
[00:17:38] Speaker 2: No, just if you've enjoyed the episode, like share and subscribe, and if you've got any questions, you can hit us up on our Facebook group building
[00:17:45] Speaker 1: with Bluebird.
Oh yeah. Find us on Instagram or jump on our website. That's all right. Well, good. Well, we'll see you next. See you next time.