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That Tech Pod
Your Kids Are on Roblox. Here’s What You Need to Know with Roblox’s VP of Safety Product Policy, Eliza Jacobs
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On this episode we talk with Eliza Jacobs, VP of Safety Product Policy at Roblox, about what it actually takes to keep one of the world’s biggest online platforms safe for kids.
Eliza takes us behind the scenes of Roblox’s approach to safety, from building safety into the product from the start to moderating millions of user-created experiences, handling reports, and dealing with the unique challenges of real-time voice chat. We also dig into the growing debate around age verification, privacy, and how platforms can protect younger users without creating an entirely new set of problems.
And because Roblox is a huge part of how millions of kids spend their time online, we ask the questions parents actually want answered: What happens when a child reports someone? How does Roblox detect inappropriate interactions? What can parents realistically expect from the platform? And, most importantly, is there any secret way to get your kid some free Robux?
Your kids are on Roblox so this is a conversation worth hearing.
Eliza Jacobs is the VP of Safety Product Policy at Roblox, where she is responsible for our external Community Standards and the internal interpretation and enforcement of those policies. Prior to joining Roblox, she was the Head of Product Policy at Airbnb, joining in 2016 as the third member of the broader Community Policy team and helping it grow to 18 people in five offices across the globe. Eliza started her tech journey at Etsy, where she worked in a wide variety of Trust and Safety roles and learned the ropes of product, policy, and operations. She began her career as a lawyer, practicing as a securities litigator in New York before making the switch to Trust and Safety.
Hello and welcome to that tech pod where we discuss all things e-discovery, data privacy, cybersecurity, and tech innovations. I'm Laura Melstein.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Kevin Albert.
SPEAKER_02And each week we bring on heavy hitters from the industry to help us break down these topics. And today, Kevin, who are we talking to?
SPEAKER_01Today we're talking to Eliza Jacobs. She is the VP of Safety Product Policy at Roblox, where she is responsible for the external community standards and the internal interpretation and enforcement of those policies. Prior to joining Roblox, she was the head of product policy at Airbnb, joining in 2016 as the third member of the broader community policy team and helped grow it to 18 people in five offices around the globe. Eliza started her tech journey at Etsy, where she worked in a wide variety of trust and safety roles and learned the ropes of product policy and operations. She began her career as a lawyer practicing as a securities litigator in New York before making the switch to trust and safety. Eliza, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02We're so happy to have you here. Before we hit record everyone, we were just like telling her how we're like fangirling from family members. Like Kevin's children are obsessed with roadblocks. I have uh two nieces and a nephew that are like, Why aren't you on roadblocks, Aunt Laura? And I'm like, I don't understand. So we're so super pumped for this one so that our families stay loving us for holidays that are coming up. Yeah. So you have a pretty unusual path from securities litigation to trust and safety at Etsy and Airbnb, and now you're at roadblocks. Like, what a journey. So, can you tell us what that journey has actually taught you about building trust online? Just to get right into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I started, I went to law school and I started my career as a litigator in New York doing mostly securities work. And I I just didn't find the impact to be as immediate as I wanted it to be. You know, as any litigator knows, those things can go on for years, if not decades. And that time frame just didn't work for my brain. So I left to go to Etsy pretty early on and just started learning about trust and safety. And I think what I brought from law into trust and safety is that a set of rules that are transparent, that are enforced, and that are willing to evolve with the society is what builds trust in that society, right? The same way that traffic laws make us all safe on the road. We all share a sense of how we want this society to operate. And that that is what's really important is that you say what the rules are and then you enforce the rules, and then you own up to when the rules should change. And so I really brought that from my like legal background into my trust and safety work.
SPEAKER_01I love it. And let's start with safety by design. So when your folks are building a platform like Roblox, how early does safety actually enter the product development process? And what does it actually look like in practice?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, safety has to be sort of built into the DNA of every product decision. Like every choice you make, where the button goes, what the button says, what the default is, how what you're building, what features you're building, all of those things are in some way a safety decision. So for example, on Roblox, we don't allow user-to-user sharing of images or video in chat. So you can't upload an image from your phone and share it over to your friend on Roblox. A lot of reasons why we would have made that decision, but there's a big one is safety, right? We don't want inappropriate images being shared across between users where we can't interrupt it with the moderation system. Another example is that we don't encrypt chat and we never have. So we can see all the chat, we can filter all the chat, we can look at it for longer-term patterns of abuse, and we do all of that. But that decision, the the encryption decision, has real safety implications. So everything you build is in some way a choice about risk and safety.
SPEAKER_02I think that's very fair. I mean, in the context of everything, everything you're building should impact this and you should be thinking about it. Even the things that you're like, huh, I should have thought about that. It's I I don't know if you guys have this, but like on my day-to-day life, this happens to me in every single area where I'm like, oh, should have done that. Whether it's like a contract you're reviewing, and I'm like, oh, I should have put this in, and I overthink all of these things. And things like security, when building a company or having any of this, especially something that like children are working on, oh, that would stress me out. Ugh, I don't know. Anyway, that's probably why I don't have kids and I can't have them. I just can't. Not physically, who knows, but uh emotionally, I'm like, what a stressor. I'd be so scared. But Kevin loves children.
SPEAKER_01I mean, not not all children, I like my children.
unknownI heard it.
SPEAKER_02I heard it. So there's a real tension here. The safest platform imaginable probably isn't the most fun or frictionless. That would be my guess. I don't know. Like, how would you balance safety, privacy, freedom, and user experience when those goals kind of conflict?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a really good question. And it's a question that we're wrestling with every day with every decision that we make, right? This is all about trade-offs. It's all about sort of what incremental value is the user getting for what incremental risk? And that's true. Look, as a parent, that's true of every decision you make as a parent, right? Are you gonna let your kids ride their scooter all the way to the corner without when you can't see them? Do you trust them to stop at the corner and look both ways? Like what level of sort of rope are you are you giving them? And I think we're sort of thinking about safety on the platform in that way as well, which is that we have a set of defaults that grow with kids as they age. So you for younger users, when your kids are younger, you give them less space. You you you are more on top of them about things, right? Your eyeballs are on them more. And then as they grow up, you give them a little bit more age-appropriate space from you because you want them to learn how to make the right decisions and also how to come to you if there's any issue. So, you know, something I say a lot is kids are gonna grow up on the internet, like that is their reality right now. And so I think helping them build skills in an age-appropriate way that sort of expands with them as they grow up is is the right approach. It's sort of a parenting level kind of approach to online safety. But yeah, there's different tension and we make different decisions at different ages. And this is why our age estimation system is really now like the foundation of how we approach these things, because now that we can have actual information about how old younger users are, we can put them in the right buckets with the right defaults, give them less freedom when they're eight and more freedom when they're 18.
SPEAKER_01I mean, obviously, you went down that path. So let's go a little bit more onto age verification. Obviously, that's like one of the biggest challenges in online safety. But at the same time, like if I can prove I'm 18 and I give you access to my face, I'm also now just giving you my face. Like, is age verification actually solving the safety problem, or are we creating like a different privacy problem down the road?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, super fair question. So a couple of things. One is I I do think age verification, estimation, you know, whatever you want to call it for younger users solves a genuine safety problem, which is that different products and different defaults are appropriate for different age groups. That's just true. We all know that an eight-year-old has different needs than a 16-year-old, and we give them completely different, you know, levels of responsibility in society. And so if we want to mirror that online, like we have to know how old people are. So I do think it does have a genuine safety impact. And then on the privacy and and security side, we need to, of course, do data minimization so that we're only using the information we absolutely need. So a couple things. One, the nice thing about facial age estimation is that we do the process, we figure out how old you are, and then we throw away the data that we used to, you know, once we have that information, right? So this is not facial identification. This is not identity, right? We don't know who you are. Whereas if you're providing an ID, we actually know who you are on some level. Now, in the same way we throw away the ID information after we get the age, but it is just like more information that you're offering out. And then of course, for kids, like they don't have IDs. And maybe they have a passport, but for the most part, they're not going to have an ID until at the earliest they get their driver's license. And so this facial age estimation technology really unlocks an ability to provide age-appropriate experiences, with I think a privacy limited, like we're we're limiting as much as we can the privacy invasion.
SPEAKER_01One of the things that's come up in my house is that some of my daughter's friends, they've actually been aged older in the face thing than she has. And so she's like, I can't talk to some people because my daughter's 13, right? And so some of her friends, they might be 13, 14, 15, or whatever, but like one of her friends got like slotted into like an 18 or 19-year-old bucket, and she's like, they're considered an adult, and I'm not. And so she's like, That's caused a little bit of tension in things like that. And so for me, like, how do you overcome some of those things where it is an estimation, right? It's saying, I think you might be 17 or I think you might be 12 or whatever. How do you work around that when you again is it's a kid, they don't have a passport, they don't have an ID and all.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. I think one really important point that your daughter is helping me make is kids want to get it right because they want to talk to their friends. So they're actually this incentive, you know, like when I was a kid and people had fake IDs to go buy beer for a party, yeah, there was this incentive to get it wrong, right? To to be aged older. But on Roblox, there's actually the opposite incentive. People want to be the right age. And so we've built multiple ways for that to happen. So certainly, you know, we think this is the best available on-the-market option for younger users in terms of age estimation, but it isn't perfect. The mean average error rate is about 1.4 years. So, you know, if that means it bumps you out of, we have these age buckets so that you can talk to folks in your own age bucket and then on either side. But if it bumps you out of the proper bucket, we do have appeals processes for that. So a linked parent can correct the age on the account, or you can write in an appeal and say, you know, this is inaccurate and we can fix it. So we think the age estimation is mostly correct, mostly gets you in the right bucket. But if it's wrong, we have ways of appealing that.
SPEAKER_02I'm gonna file an appeal right after this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know. For the older folks, it's like less fun, you know. For the younger folks, they like it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so roadblocks is unusual because you're not just moderating content created by the company, you have like millions of user-created experiences, which is honestly like what makes it cool. But how do you give creators the freedom to build while also maintaining a consistent safety standard across all of it?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So I run our creator safety council, and we talk to the our creators all the time. And what's really interesting from them is that they care so much about safety and being appropriate, and they want to build really awesome stuff, but they don't obviously want to create any any safety risks. So I think our creators are very aligned with us in terms of what we all want to build together. That being said, that there's certainly a tension between, you know, ultimate creative freedom and restrictions, particularly for a younger audience. So our goal is to have clear policies that our creators are able to follow. We're constantly working to give them more clarity, to provide more information about where the lines are, and then let them go wild within those lines. But, you know, we are a platform that has all ages five and up. And so it is just going to be more restrictive than the rest of the internet. You know, we don't allow profanity, we don't allow any references to drugs or alcohol, we have very restrictive policies around any kind of romantic or sexual content. And that's just because that's what's appropriate for our user base. But we we have amazing games and amazing creators, and people find many ways to be creative within those bounds.
SPEAKER_01Nice. I have a question that is directly from my daughter. Can we talk about reporting for a second? So a lot of kids and even some parents will tell you, I reported somebody on Roblox, but it doesn't seem like anything's happening. What actually happens on the other side of that report? And do you feel like there are times where the system still falls short?
SPEAKER_00Yes, love these questions from your daughter. Please keep reporting. It's a very helpful signal for us. It really gives us a lot of information about particularly what the community is concerned about that maybe we have not yet been aware of, new trends, things like that. So when you file an abuse report on the platform, it goes into our moderation cues, and we have systems that are staffed both by human moderators and by AI systems. And we use both of those things. And depending on the job that's being done, we use the right tool for the job. So large-scaled moderation, things where you're making the same decision on the same kind of content over and over again, that's really better done by an AI system. It's faster, it's able to scale with the platform. But more nuanced things, things that require more context, more investigation, those kinds of things go to the human moderators. And our job is to make sure that the right report is going to the right queue and we're constantly refining that. We would never launch an AI system to moderate something if it wasn't testing better than the human moderators. So it must outperform the humans before we're going to launch it to an automated moderation system. That being said, we're constantly improving those systems. So one improvement we made, I think just a couple months ago, is that reporters now get feedback on their reports. So prior, you would hit your report and then you would never hear about what happened to it. But now we get back to you once that report has been handled and say, hey, yeah, you were right. That was a violation of our community standards. Thanks so much for telling us. Or we say we looked at it and actually it wasn't a violation, but like please keep reporting. So I think that feedback loop is a big improvement. The community seems to really like it so that people know what's actually happening to their reports.
SPEAKER_02I want to know what happens to every single report that I file for every single thing I do. I actually hate that, like in some companies, and we'll just use like Instagram, right? Like social media. It's so hard to me to understand how you could work in privacy or any of those, because I can be like this is offensive report, report, report, but how do you do that fine line between freedom of speech and straight up offensive? And I think it would be the hardest thing to do. And you have some of these companies where I'm like, yeah, I could never go public because I want to be like private company, our own rules, because simply of things like that, and in a world where like uh in my opinion, everyone is very easily offended, it is really hard to know like what's gonna offend you, what's gonna offend them, what's you know, and again, like just because you're offended doesn't mean that somebody can't say something. And so I just nobody put me in that role ever. I don't accept, no matter how much, it would be so stressful.
SPEAKER_00I guess you you can't apply for a role on my team. That's our whole job to write all the rules. You're wrong, you're right that like no one agrees on what's offensive or what's even you know harmful. You know, my team's job is to analyze things for risk of harm, is basically our standard. We do a lot of research. I have child development experts on my team, lawyers on my team, and engineers, like lots of people with lots of different backgrounds, and we're really diving into what about this content is potentially problematic and and weighing that against the expression risk. But it's a con, you know, it's constant and new means and new friends, and like we have to constantly re-evaluate.
SPEAKER_02I'm impressed by by you, because literally, and I'm not on roadbox, truthfully, but I am like on like an Instagram, and I'll be like, oh my god, and it's like that doesn't go against our standards. And and and I'm not honestly, I I don't report things often, but I I wouldn't even know where to begin because I'm just like, how do you define that? And thinking about something that children are playing on would be so stressful. And I work in the cybersecurity field of it, so I live for somebody to try to hack into some of those things, and I'm like, this is my dream, but the privacy part of it, I respect it, but I am so appreciative for you and people like you that are on the ground handling it, because that's where I'm like, I'll stop the intruder, I'm not gonna stop the verbal harasser. That's the hard part for me. Speaking of voicing, let's talk about voice chat. So, voice chat kind of feels like one of the hardest safety problems to solve. How do you detect and intervene when someone is saying something just beyond an appropriate, regardless of you know, however we're gonna define that? But to a child in real time, how do you do that without effectively listening to every conversation?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, such a good question. So, a couple things. On on Roblox, voice chat is only available to users that are age verified to be 13 or older. So younger users just don't have access to voice chat on the platform. Again, a sort of age-appropriate default. When I was 13, I was talking on the phone to my friends, but when I was nine, I probably wasn't. And so that's number one. Number two, we actually have an industry-leading voice chat model, moderation model that we've open sourced to the whole industry that does just what you're talking about. It listens to the conversations and it interrupts conversations that seem to be breaking our rules. So, what we've found is that the in-the-moment interruption, what we call a nudge, that sort of times you out for a second and says, hey, it seems like you're you're breaking our rules. Reminder, we have community standards, here they are. Please follow the rules when you're using voice chat. And then it escalates, if you continue to break the rules, escalates to being timed out of the whole feature for a period of time. So what we've found is that those in the moment moderation actions are much more effective at reminding people to be civil and that their reform rate, which is what we call it internally, but the the rate at which they stop breaking the rules basically goes up when we intervene in the moment of the violation. So it is a really hard task, but we have a dynamic and live platform, right? People are playing games, they're not just passively watching videos, they're interacting with each other in the games all day. And so we have a lot of those sort of live challenges of moderation.
SPEAKER_01I think it's really interesting. And for one of the pieces that I kind of find fascinating in this is sort of the, you know, the dichotomy of like trying to be very reactive versus proactive. And so I guess my question is to that is how much of online safety is just about sort of moderating what happens after the fact versus understanding like the context and the identity and the age and the intent like well enough to present the the harmful interactions basically in the first place?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, such a good question. Privacy or security, it's always going to be proactive and reactive because the threat is always gonna evolve. We have significant proactive moderation systems. So we're looking at every asset as it's uploaded to the platform, and then we're looking at the games as they get assembled. We're looking, we have a text filter that's looking at every line of text that's going back and forth between people. We're looking at usernames, we're looking at avatars, we're looking at everything proactively and also reactively. So, you know, responding to abuse reports or finding games that have gotten through all those hoops and then sort of turned bad at some point, and then we we've c we catch it once it's already on the platform. So of course, your goal as a safety organization is through product design and proactive moderation for for nothing bad to ever reach anybody, but that's not possible. But we so we want to move as much into the proactive bucket as we can, but then also have reactive systems because again the threat is always evolving, the terms are evolving. Our engineering leader, he has two teenage sons, and I have multiple times been like, Hey, can you ask your boys what this word means? Because it's a new slang term and I am afraid to Google it. So I'm like, ask your boys, and they've told me. And I'm like, great, we're gonna put that in the text filter now. So yeah, so it's both it's a mix of both. We would prefer as much of it to be proactive as it can be. We are measuring the exposure rate, so meaning if a bad asset or a bad game made it to the platform, how many people actually saw it? And what we're finding is that especially we launched Robux Kids and Robux Select accounts a couple months ago, which is a like a curated catalog of games for users six under 16. And what we're finding is that within that catalog, oh almo it's almost impossible for a kid to see something that we later reactively pulled out. And that's really encouraging.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. I have a really important final question. And it's probably the only one that really matters in my household. As we mentioned, my daughter is a huge player of Roblox. As her father, is there any sort of super secret pathway to getting her a bunch of free Robux?
SPEAKER_00This is always the question. The only pathway really is for you to come work for Roblox because employees do get an allowance to be able to spend on the platform and build their avatar and stuff. But unfortunately, no, there's no there's no Wonka golden ticket for for Robux.
SPEAKER_01That's a bummer. All right. I had to ask.
SPEAKER_02I get it. I totally get it. Kev, I guess you gotta get a new job. I know. Yes, we know what if you love your family.
SPEAKER_00If you love your family, I guess you know or your daughter can, you know, go get a law degree or an engineering degree or something and come work for us in a couple years. There is an internship program, an excellent internship program for us.
SPEAKER_01That is that is a good thing to know for sure.
SPEAKER_02Wow, there you go. That's dedication. Well, you have been an amazing guest. We super appreciate you coming on today. Our family members are probably gonna let us attend to the holidays now. So this has been really helpful for us for that. But yeah, thank you so much. Just as a final thing, I know Kevin asked a final, but for all our listeners, if you could give them just like one piece of advice, just like anything, what would you tell them?
SPEAKER_00I would say for folks who are parents or who have kids in their lives that are playing Roblox, play yourself. Get to know what it looks like, why they love it, make your own avatar. Because really the most important, we can build every safety system in the world. But if a kid doesn't have a trusted adult that they can go to and talk to, if something feels off to them, it doesn't matter, right? Like we that is the most important thing for kids. And if you can be that for your for your nieces and nephews or for your kids, so they know they can come to you because you get it, I think that makes all the difference in the world.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. I love it. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Awesome. So, Kevin, we just spoke with Eliza Jacobs, who is the VP of Safety Product Policy at Roadblocks. Clearly, uh, we fangirled out for the family members. But what were your honest tech takeaways from this?
SPEAKER_01I thought it was really interesting. I thought she was really great. We hit her with some real questions and she answered all of them, which was awesome. I think the biggest takeaway is that online safety isn't just about like making the internet smaller, it's about making it a place that you can trust and create and explore and connect with people. And they're in a unique place because obviously, as you mentioned, like it's a weird thing because it's sort of like an ageless platform. Like some of the things you have to be 13 or 16 or whatever to get an account. Roblox, there's like five-year-olds on there, and so like you have five-year-olds and then you have adults, and so you have a big mix, you have to really protect a lot of different people from a lot of different people. And so I feel like that piece of it is really interesting, and you're giving like millions of people access to tools to build themselves. And so obviously, her job sounds like it's gotta be really hard. Uh her team sounds amazing, and so I think this is really a cool pod. I'm really glad that we had her on. Obviously, I want them to do good work. I like her suggestion of like having an account. You know, it's definitely something I never really thought about. I've never really been on the platform. I've sort of like shoulder surfed over my daughter on occasion where they're like, let me show you this cool thing, but like I don't have my own account, and so maybe I will create my own my own and come in and actually like see what she's doing. I actually think that's a really good suggestion, and then definitely something I wouldn't have thought of. And and again, as we talked about at the end, like as the dad of a Roblox obsessed daughter, I'm a local celebrity now. And so for me, I feel like that's a big win, and I'll take it. Anytime I can get those, it's always a big one. So overall, a really great pod. I really liked it. What about you? What are your tech takeaways?
SPEAKER_02Here's the thing, Kevin. I have not played Roblox. I'm gonna be honest. I I think it's out of my age range, and I'm not like a Disney adult, no disrespect, but I mean like a little bit of judgment, but like no disrespect.
SPEAKER_01And so I feel like you should have a little bit of judgment, that's right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was trying to be polite. Like, here's where I don't judge on like that, just a quick tangent. Is I guess I haven't been to Ebcot since I was a kid, but I have heard like food around the world is cool or whatever, but I'm also like, mm, just go to those places. Like, I mean, it just feels like you're just like hopping around it, like, oh my god, I'm in Portugal because I'm eating at like a Portuguese restaurant. I'm like, just it doesn't work to me. But maybe, maybe there's something there I'm missing. So I don't know. I haven't gone to Disney as an adult, so but yeah, to me it's weird. So my point is is that I also think it'd be weird to play roadblocks as an adult. Like people that were like, they played The Sims or whatever growing up. I'm like, if you're still doing that as an adult, it's kind of weird. Which to me, maybe is just my reality. But to other people, like people play video games and they're adults and they're crazy good at it and they love it. So maybe it's kind of like that. I don't know. But where I think it's different is like, I guess to me, in like a video game, you can play at home, not against like other little children, which is creepy. I guess it's both. I don't know. My point is is not knowing and having all these questions. Again, I'm gonna restate that I'm so glad I don't work directly for roadblocks in their privacy in in what she's doing on a regular basis, because I would be so stressed. Every day there's something new that you have to factor in, constant security concerns, constant changes with compliance and just keeping up with everything. I mean, that has to be a really stressful job, and she seems really calm.
SPEAKER_01So honestly, but I do like that they m build little communities, right? Because I, again, I don't, you know, no offense. I don't want you as an adult playing in the same community as you know, my 13-year-old daughter. None. But I also want her to be able to do that with her friends. And so I like that there is the age brackets, right? I like that she can play and hang out and talk and whatever she's doing with a couple of years younger kids and a couple of year older kids, but like there is a barrier. She's she shouldn't be playing with somebody who's 18, 25, 55, any of that kind of thing. And so I feel like that's a good thing for sure.
SPEAKER_02175,000 percent, yeah. Same page on that. Like that, the fact that they are making those changes and doing that is is amazing, but definitely stresses me out. All in all, I think if you have a child that's on roadblocks and you learned anything valuable today or had any questions or have any questions that we didn't get answered, reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you, we'd love to get your feedback and your insight. Shoot us, shoot us a message. We're um on standby. You can reach out to us at contact at thattechpod.com. If you haven't already, please head on over to our website, www.thtechpod.com. Enter your email to subscribe, stay up to date, get some you know, mouse pads if you're still using it. We just found out from this interview that the 90s are back, and I'm pretty sure mouse pads were awesome in the 90s, so maybe they're awesome now. I don't know. Think about it. Oh wait, social media? Speaking of, absolutely we'd love to be your friend. Thanks for asking. Why don't you go over to LinkedIn.com slash that tech pod and give us a quick follow. We'd love to see you, we'd love to be your friends. We may be on social media elsewhere, but I don't handle that part of this company. So I don't know. Find us, friend us, and let me know. Kevin, is there anything else our listeners can do?
SPEAKER_01Yep, go to wherever your gear pods, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartMedia, or what have you, and leave us a review, leave us a rating, let us know how we're doing. All that stuff helps us with the algorithms and gets us out there more, which is much appreciated. Thanks everybody.
SPEAKER_02Thanks everyone.