S2 E1: Inside Whisky Cask Management: Expert Insights with Russell Bradley

Welcome to Episode 1 of The Whisky Investment Podcast by VCL Vintners! Join whisky journalist Alwyn Gwilt, as she chats with Russell Bradley, the man behind the meticulous operations at VCL Vintners. If you're curious about the journey whisky takes from cask to bottle, you're in the right place.

In this episode, we dive into the fascinating details of whisky cask management. Russell gives us an insider's look at his daily routine, which involves overseeing over 10,000 casks from distilleries all over Scotland. He explains the process of regauging, a crucial step to ensure the whisky's quality, and demystifies terms like RLA (regauged litres of alcohol) and OLA (original litres of alcohol).

We also explore the poetic concept of the "angel's share"—the whisky that evaporates as it matures—and how this natural process shapes the flavour of the final product. Russell shares the unique opportunities for investors to sample and bottle their whisky, offering a personal touch to the investment experience.

Russell doesn't just stop at the basics. He introduces us to the variety of cask types used in maturation, from the common bourbon barrels to the more exotic Calvados brandy and red wine casks. And for those wondering about future trends, he hints at some exciting experiments on the horizon that promise to produce some truly exceptional whiskies.

This episode is a must-watch for anyone passionate about whisky, whether you're an enthusiast savouring every drop or an investor looking to understand the intricacies of cask management. Join us for a behind-the-scenes look at the art and science that goes into every bottle.

🎵 Watch the video version of the podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La5PkdhzfLM

Transcript

Alwynne: Hello, I'm Alwynne Gwilt, whiskey journalist, and today I'm in a really special location for this next episode of the VCL Vintners podcast. We're over at Hinch Distillery in Northern Ireland, and today ­­­I'm joined by Will Stafford, who's the head distiller here. Will, welcome to the podcast. 

Thank you very much.

Nice to be here. Well, I'm super happy because it is my first visit over to Hinch. One of my first visits to Northern Ireland as well, which I apologize for in advance for not having spent enough time on this soil. Um, but if, uh, you know, maybe give our listeners a little bit of background into who you are and what, what your job really entails here at the distillery.

Yeah, 

Will: absolutely. So I joined Hinch back in May, 2021. Um, I was brought in to help bring the distillery up to capacity at post commissioning. Um, and my role is now sort of all managing the whole aspect of distillation. So right through from sourcing our barley, our casks, um, Our maturation profile, distillation profile, um, and our [00:01:00] future liquid planning.

Alwynne: Wow, so quite an extensive, that's quite a lot of things to be digging up. 

Will: An exciting, an exciting job. Yeah, 

Alwynne: yeah. Um, so if those listeners who maybe haven't come across Hinch Distillery before, um, you're one of the new wave of, of Irish distillers, which are, is super exciting, a really, really exciting time to be in the Irish whiskey industry.

But what was some of the thinking behind actually establishing the distillery here? 

Will: So the, the Grounds that we're currently on. So the distillery is owned by Dr. Terry Cross, um, a serial entrepreneur who made his name in the packaging industry. So he had a lot of, um, food packaging for multinationals and he owns this estate, um, that is 161 years old.

Wow. Well, 161 years old at the time, 165 years old now. Yeah. Um, and it was perfect for the So it was mainly unused land, um, but it's, we're surrounded by Drumlins on arival land so grateful growing barley and different things like that. So, um, with, with the [00:02:00] space that we had here on the estate and Terry had just moved, broke the package of business, I was, I was, he was massively on the up at the time.

Yeah. And we decided to build a green glass distillery here, um, on site, which is relatively unheard of now in modern times where we have, uh, we can grow our barley, um, and we've maturation and bottling here as well. So, um, Terry wanted a full seed glass distillery, um, completely under our own control. So we don't rely on external partners for maturation or packaging.

So that was, uh, that was the main, um, Yeah, the main inspiration behind the build. 

Alwynne: Yeah. And how did you end up here at Hinch 

Will: Distillery? So I, I worked for another local, um, Northern Irish distillery at the time. Um, and I was brought in, I was approached by, um, one of the senior staff about taking the plant up to capacity.

Um, whiskies. Um, it's always been a massive passion of mine, but I've worked across multiple [00:03:00] spirits from vodka, gin, potting, rum, and whiskeys, ultimately, where I've always seen myself. Yeah. Um, it's what I grew up with, um, being, uh, the grandson of a tillage farmer, um, who made potting and different things in the farm.

So it's, it's something I've always enjoyed doing. Um, and my mum actually took me to the, Bushmills Distillery when I was 14. And massively fell in love with the smell and the aromas. And enjoyed working with wood. So everything we do here at Hinch, I've never seen myself working. Um, but it was a bit more hands on, so whisky distilling was definitely the next, the next natural step.

Alwynne: Yeah. Fantastic. Well, it's a, it's a amazing to be, um, we were speaking a little bit before, just kind of before filming this podcast about, you know, the, the beauty of being at a distillery that's kind of on the ascendancy, that's a bit newer that you can kind of really put your stamp on. So you mentioned, um, about grain to glass and a lot of the things that you're, you know, doing here on site.

Yeah. at Hinch. What are some of those things that are making you stand out that are a little bit [00:04:00] different here at the distillery? It's 

Will: definitely mainly our ethos. So, um, just our approach to production. So we, we only use Irish barley, um, and we're currently going through a growing program to bring all of our barley to within County Down.

Um, where we're situated. So we're working with, um, about 60 different local farmers who are growing a barley for us. Again, it's taken a bit of time because those farmers are traditionally feedstock growers. So that transition from feedstock to distilling grade barleys is very, very different. That's one of the major things that stands out for me.

Um, but we have an ultra modern distillery with, um, we, we may not have Victorian style. Um, equipment, but we have equipment that does the exact same, it's just a lot more efficient and, and where the world is at at the minute, it's, it's incredibly important that we're doing things as efficiently as possible.

And so we've got a really, really capable plant. Instilling all those age old practices, [00:05:00] um, and using barley grown within, um, nearly touching distance. Yeah, that's amazing. It's remarkable for us. Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's, that's the main things for me. 

Alwynne: Yeah. And we've got a really interesting bottle here in front of us, um, which has an unusual word for Irish whiskey, which is peated.

Um, tell us a little bit more about what you're doing with peated whiskey. Pete here at the distillery, because I think a lot of listeners and people out there who have gotten to know Irish whiskey over the years, they maybe they've had a Connemara, but I mean, you know, there hasn't been a lot of peated Irish whiskey, although I'm sure traditionally there would have been.

Yeah. Um, so what, what was the inspiration and the desire, um, behind wanting to create a peated, uh, whiskey from Hinch? 

Will: Again, a combination of things. Um, it's definitely Scotch peated, um, obviously globally, globally known and globally appreciated. Yeah. Irish peated whiskey. Not so much, but there's, there's definitely, um, a market for it.

Again, we here at the distillery double and triple distill. So with our peated whiskey, we've got two very, very [00:06:00] different styles. Yeah, the double, double distilled peated been very much so targeted at the, um, mature whiskey drinker, peated whiskey drinker. Um, and then our triple distilled, which is much softer and rounder than Uh, a double distilled, so again, a much more approachable for, um, bringing new people into the category.

It's something we feel very, very strongly about, um, the whole island is covered in paint. Um, one of the richest in the whole of Europe. So, um, and it was, it was ultimately our main fuel source, um, many years ago. So it's something that we just want to bring, bring back into tradition and again, allow people to see that.

Peated, peated whiskey can be approachable and it can, can be consumed and enjoyed. 

Alwynne: Yeah, it's fascinating. And you personally like, like a bit of this, the peat as well. Yeah, 

Will: I, um, my, just where I'm from, I'm from Anna, um, I grew up with peat fires. Um, I spent my summers in the bog, [00:07:00] uh, cutting and drying, cutting and drying peat.

And Um, my grandfather and my father, um, both had PETA whiskeys in the house and it's something I just grew very accustomed to, so there's definitely a nostalgic element to it, um, absolutely. But again, within the distillery, um, no one person makes all the decisions and collectively we believe it's, um, it's the way forward for, um, a large portion of the family.

What we do. 

Alwynne: Yeah. So how much actually is the production for peated versus unpeated? So 

Will: across the million liters that we're currently producing, um, 60 percent is unpeated. So 600, 000 liters, um, 400, 000 liters of heavily peated. 

Alwynne: Wow. So yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a big, big amount. And obviously, you know, so maybe walk us a little bit through, um, What you've had released to date because obviously the distillery came online four years ago.

Is that correct? Yeah. So it came online four years ago, which means you haven't, where, where's the whiskey? Where's the whiskey come from that's in the bottles that we see? It's 

Will: something that we, [00:08:00] we were very transparent about. So like all new distilleries, we don't have whiskey yet. So what's coming off our stills takes a minimum of three, but very few distilleries release whiskey at three.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, So all of our whiskey that we currently sell is blended. Okay. Yeah. Um, and, and sourced from, um, mainly great northern distillery. Okay. Um, contract distiller who facilitates probably 80% of the distilleries in the island at the moment who don't have their own stocks. Yeah. Um, so that's where all of our whiskey is came from.

And another distillery, north coast of Northern Ireland as well. Mm-Hmm. . So you have a rich heritage in distilling, uh, single malts. Yeah. Yeah. So we use both those sources for all of our blends. Mm-Hmm. , um. And now over some of our non age statement blended whiskeys, we've been integrating our, our three and a half year old whiskeys into Fantastic.

So right now it's really, it's a really exciting time for us. Yeah. As we transition out of, um, source stock. Mm-Hmm. into our own. So it's something we're very, very excited about. Um, it'll be a [00:09:00] change phase for the distillery. Um, our focus has purely been on source stock over the last number of years. Um, now that we've came of age, you'll see a big change and a different look and feel for for what our future looks like.

Alwynne: Fantastic. So, uh, new things afoot. When can we expect this exciting, uh, new whiskey? Locally, 

Will: um, the Northern Irish market will see it, um, pre Christmas this year. Oh, this year already. Fantastic. Um, and we're quite bullish about what we're doing. Um, there's very few distilleries, um, to say, especially in Ireland, that decide to release, uh, Heavily Peated Single Malt as their first release and it's something that we're, we're going to do and something where we are very bullish about, um, and then St.

Patrick's 2025 will be, we'll see the global, global launch of. Of that non English statement, single malt. 

Alwynne: So really at that crux of shifting times here at the Hinch Distillery. Absolutely. Super exciting. And um, you've obviously though done very well out [00:10:00] of the whiskeys that have been released, including winning World's Best Irish Blended Whiskey at the World Whiskey Awards last year.

How, was that a proud moment? How did you feel when you saw that coming through? 

Will: Definitely is. Um, like we've, we've won an awful lot of awards over the last, um, the last number of years from we started selling whiskey back in 2019, 2020. Yeah. Um, we, we've bought well, we sourced well, we, we've matured very well.

Um, and we've brought that together with our blending team that we have downstairs. Um, we've, we've won some fantastic awards. The most recent ones, which is the Irish whiskey masters. Um, we've just won. seven medals. So we've won two masters for our new make spirit, um, which is relatively unheard of. Yeah.

So it was the only, it was the only new make spirit, um, was awarded a master this year. Wow. Um, so something I'm very, very proud of. It's the first time we've, we've, um, put our new make into a competition. Um, but we just thought timely with [00:11:00] the imminent release of some of our own spirits. So the two masters for that and five goals.

at the spirit awards as well. And then the last one that you mentioned, the best Irish blended whiskey and testament again, um, most of what, most of Irish whiskey is blended and to come out on top on those awards for a very young distillery. We have a very young distilling team as well. So I'm 30, the rest of the team were a year or two older than me or a year younger than me.

So we have a very, very young team. Young team in the grand scheme of things. Some we're very, 

Alwynne: very proud of. Amazing. Well, congratulations. It's fantastic to see. And obviously, especially in this era where we're seeing this rise of Irish whiskey distilleries. It's uh, yeah, it's a great, a great time to be achieving those awards.

Absolutely. And you talked a little bit about sourcing casks there, but also just making sure you're using good quality casks. Can you talk a little bit more about the type of casks you're using here at Hinch and some of the choices that you've made around those over the last few years? 

Will: Yes, [00:12:00] certainly.

Um, Wood's obviously a massive part of what we do. It's probably one of the most expensive things that we, that we do here. Any distillery, the wood policy tends to be one of the most expensive. Um, we put a massive influence into. Refill barrels. Mm-Hmm. . Um, we obviously buy a lot of first fill bourbons as well.

60% of what we fill is bourbon. And that's split across, uh, first fill and refills. Yeah. Um, the, the reason for refills is, uh, sustainability element, um, but also our, our distillate and the, the, the character within that. Mm-Hmm. . So it's something that we, we certainly want to be a distillate forward. We want to be known for the quality of spirit that we use.

Mm-Hmm. , um, and produce and not just. Um, our maturation profile. So we're very, very proud here of what we, what we distilled. Um, and we want that to be appreciated, um, across all of our releases as well. Being, being a relatively young industry with a lot of new distilleries online, we've, Irish whiskey as a, as a whole, has put a massive influence on first full [00:13:00] bourbons, which, um, the way things have been, uh, the bourbon industry, um, not.

not dumping as many casks. Yeah. Yeah. And the increasing capacities across Ireland and Scotland and the demand. A lot of new distilleries online. Tequila for that matter as well. Yeah. So all of these industries seeing a massive increase in production has limited casks. So, um, we're, we're very keen to continue exploring refill barrels and that's not, not just in the bourbon side of things we use.

We use other casks as well. So we obviously, like most distilleries, we have a large sherry portfolio. We use Madeira. Our owner actually owns a chateau in France, in Bordeaux, so we use a lot of their French oak casks as well. And then a lot of speciality casks for small releases. The next one being Marie, which is similar to Daniel.

So again, French oak, um, and a sweet dessert [00:14:00] wine. So there's a big, big influence on those, but again, refill as well, because we want our, our distillate to shine. You don't want 

Alwynne: it to just get masked. I mean, as you say, if you're entering that new mixed spirit. into competitions, it's winning masters. You don't want to just hide that behind, you know, what they do.

You want it to work together. 

Will: We want it to be at the fore, absolutely. 

Alwynne: Yeah, for sure. And when you talk about utilizing those casks, say like a wine cask or a sweet wine cask, is that for like a cask finishing or is it a full maturation in those casks and then blended in or is a bit of everything? 

Will: So mainly, so I like, I have a, um, I much prefer full maturation, um, in casts, you know, we definitely have finished for, but again, when we talk about finishing, a lot of the stories, sort of six to twelve months, most of our finishing periods, because we use refills, tends to be a lot longer, so we tend to use, um, between, well, two, two and a half years for a, for a finish.

But I said, most of what we've been doing with our own distillate has been, um, full maturation. Yeah. Yeah. So our blended stuff tended to [00:15:00] be, a lot of it was finished. So for example, our, our double wood, um, that's won multiple awards. It's matured for a minimum of four to five years in a first fill and refill bourbons.

And then spends a minimum of 12 months in virgin American oak. In virgin American oak. 

Alwynne: Yeah. Yeah. So it's that whole, where do you find that balance? But also you, that's. stock you've been sourcing in. So now you want to be able to really champion and highlight the new make you're actually making here at the distillery.

Yeah. Super exciting. So that's obviously a lot of things you're doing differently here at the distillery. I've also heard about something called Proofworks. Can you explain a little bit more about what that is and how you've introduced that to the distillery? 

Will: So yeah, Proofworks came about, um, off the back of our hatred for Excel and having to manually input all of our, um, cask inventory.

Um, obviously grow significantly month on month. Um, so we wanted a really strong platform that could manage all of our cask inventory, um, but also our wood [00:16:00] history. So where our casks have come from, um, what's been in them, what we have put in them, how long we've had stuff in them. Um, so full traceability from start to finish.

We came across Proofworks and they offer a really, really strong, probably uncharted territory for, um, cask management and that sort of full blockchain element. Um, even from a, an investor investor's point of view, if they're, if they purchase a cask and before we see the full traceability, we'll be able to see what we've done with it, when we've filled it, if we've moved it in the warehouse.

Um, so again, warehousing and Purchasing whiskey can be a very blind investment, but Proofworks enables this incredible insight into the casks movement, the liquids movement. and how we've treated their whisky ultimately. 

Alwynne: Wow, that's uh, I can imagine, as you say, the hatred of Excel is felt in many industries.

And how did the, so how did the distillery run before [00:17:00] introducing 

Will: Proofworks? So everything has been manually punched into, into Excel. And again, for a short period of time, it's fine. Um, as a, as a growing distillery, managing our, our own, our own casks from start to finish. Um, and we have a small team, um, we're a very close knit team, so it, it wasn't a really good use of their time.

Um, so we just want to be able to enable distillers to do distiller stuff as, as opposed to just adding them. Yeah. 

Alwynne: And what are, what would you say are some of the main benefits of using Proofworks? 

Will: The ease of it, it's, it's very user friendly. Um, and again, the team at Proofworks have been very receptive to some of the changes that we've recommended.

So again, every distillery has their own processes, um, and way of doing things. So Proofworks has been very adaptable, um, and, and tailored Proofworks to, to Hinch ultimately. So we have our own, we have our own platform. Usability, um, everyone downstairs can use it, everyone [00:18:00] can see, even the accountants can look at all of our, um, our inventory as well, um, at a click of a button we can see everything and we don't have to continually proof it like we would, um, in Excel.

In Excel, 

Alwynne: yep. So, obviously Irish whisky is, as you've already mentioned, very much on the ascendancy, um, after a number of years, I mean, gosh, they're only Four players in the whisky industry for a long time. Has it been, is it, you know, is that an, is it an exciting time to be in the Irish whisky industry currently as somebody working in it?

And what are some of the, I guess, um, potential pitfalls around it, but also positive parts as well? Um, 

Will: yeah, look, there's probably no better time to be involved in Irish whisky. Um, as much as it is very challenging, like every distillery, there's now 44. We've potentially closer to 50 by the time they're all built and it's incredible and operational.

Yeah Everyone's gonna have to the same markets. Um, but there's certainly room for us all so like from [00:19:00] from my experiences There's been a very collaborative um take on things. So like I work very closely with the distilleries in the surrounding area and vice versa and we've all helped each other out where we need to be and that's whether that be casks or um yeast or something like that.

So again there's a really good collaborative approach to it um which is very nice to be involved in because everyone can learn something something new from another distillery. Again just the way they do, the way we do things might work for other distilleries. So yeah. Being involved in this is incredible, um, again this will go down as one of the, one of the highlights of Irish whisky history, so in many many years to come, to be able to run one of the largest independent distilleries in the country, and put our own stamp on, on that, um, for what our future looks like is, yeah.

It's incredibly exciting. Some of the very few people get the opportunity to do as well. Yeah. Yeah, 

Alwynne: absolutely. And what would you say, you know, to listeners out there who maybe haven't explored Irish whiskey as much as they should have, which they should be, but if [00:20:00] they haven't, what do you say makes Irish whiskey stand out?

What is it? It's, it's 

Will: definitely, well, yeah, definitely our, um, first of all, they, so like we are, our native spirit is poaching, um, which can ultimately mature into whiskey, but also um, Yeah. variant from other parts of the world where single malt is most of what they produce. We, we produce a pot still whiskey as well, which is a combination of malted barley and unmalted barley.

Yeah. Um, which is our, our main point of difference. Um, it's, it's our Irish whiskey and nobody else can produce it. Nobody else can call it Irish whiskey. So that's a massive point for us. And again, our, the flexibility that we have in casks as well. So unlike Scotland, um, where they're restricted to using only oak, um, we can use anything.

Um, as long as it doesn't leak or lose whiskey. Yeah. And we can use it. So most, most of the celeries have, um, tried other things like a lot of celeries have used chestnuts and things like that. So some that [00:21:00] we've looked at as well, but again, it doesn't suit our full maturation side of things. So, um, most of those other woods are, they're.

They're very reactive, so they impart flavors within two to three months. Whiskey being left in the bio for three years just couldn't handle some of that. Yeah. Yeah, our versatility and our growing conditions for barley. Yeah. Again, the end product can only be as good as what we put into it. And we have some of the best arable land across the world, and it's perfect for growing barley.

So that's a major, major benefit. advantage to Irish whiskey. 

Alwynne: So basically drink Irish whiskey, just should do. Just drink Irish whiskey yeah. I love it though, I love when um, someone hasn't had a pot still whiskey before and you give them one and they're just like, well when did you put the fruit in? How did I?

It is, it's an incredible, 

Will: incredible spread and again a lot of um, a lot of consumers worldwide like mature markets like America, Haven't had much exposure to it, other than [00:22:00] maybe one named distillery, um, from, from the south of Ireland. Um, so again, as all these other different distilleries start releasing their pot stills, um, there's so, there's, there's always going to be a flavour out there for, for someone.

Um, like if you, if you try a heavily pitted Scotch and you say you don't like it. A lot of people may not like it. You don't have many other routes to go. But with Irish whiskey we have, there's so many different mass bills that we can use. Yeah. Um, and again, depending on locality. So. hench or the Ballinhench local area, like we might have grown a lot of oats.

So that's lit for beer to be very oat forward. Um, and again, rye, corn, those different things. So different areas and, um, in Ireland will ultimately produce different regions. or different styles of square similar to Scotland with different regions. Yeah, yeah. And the same, the same thing will happen here as well.

Alwynne: I am very, I'm, I just, whenever I start speaking about Irish whisky, I get very excited. It's a great time. Um, and can you talk a little bit more about, we're doing the VCL Vintners podcast. [00:23:00] What is the connection between Hinchin 

Will: and VCL? As a, a young growing distillery. Um, we looked for a partner, um, to help us with our cast programs.

And VCL was one of the companies that absolutely stood out to us. Again, their history and, um, over the last 14 years, I think it is, um, managing assets for, um, investors. We've seen them as a really, really strong partner. Um, attention to detail and their management portfolio. So the investments that they're looking after for other people, um, we want people to do well from, from Hinch as well.

Um, and we, we plan on being a, um, a household household brand. Our, our owner's a serial entrepreneur and he's, he's done very well in all of his other businesses. And we believe this one will be exactly the same, albeit a This one's a lot slower than packaging. 

Alwynne: Slower than packaging. But more enjoyable, I would think?

Will: Yeah, certainly. You would hope? 

Alwynne: And speaking of enjoyable, um, aspects, what's, what's kind of [00:24:00] some of, you've been working in the whisky industry a few years now. What, what is it about the whisky industry? What are some of your favourite memories or a favourite memory for you of being here in the whisky industry?

Will: Um, there's, there's so, so many. Um, whisky, the whisky industry, when you, when you work inside it, it's, um, it's hard to see from the outside, um, but when Absolutely submerged in every aspect of working with farmers, growing barley, sourcing really, really good casks, working with some of the most passionate people that you'll ever come across.

Our team is no different. We call them colleagues, but they're friends. We get on really, really well, work really hard together. Um, And that's, that's been absolutely the highlight for me, but again, seeing, seeing other people grow and fall in love with an industry that they maybe didn't appreciate a number of years ago.

Um, but the whole, the whole circle, um, that's the, growing, growing barley, [00:25:00] making good whiskey, maturing it, bottling it and our byproducts going back into energy production or cattle feed. So it's, it's the full, full spectrum from start to finish. There's, there's something good from every, every element. I mean, whenever you're in the pits of people working long hours and getting a distillery off the ground, you absolutely see the good in people.

Um, and being able to say that you're, you can pay to do something that's absolutely more. Uh, my hobby and my passion than it is, uh, just a job is, um, a lot of people don't get to experience that. And, and we have over the last number of years. Yeah, 

Alwynne: fantastic. Well, exciting things ahead for Hinch Distillery and no doubt our listeners, if they haven't heard of you before, will be going out and finding out a little bit more.

But thank you so much, Will. It's been a real pleasure to get to chat with you today, um, learn more a little bit about this fantastic distillery here in Northern Ireland. And I'm very happy to have finally made it over. Um, and I think we should definitely have a, have a wee dram now to celebrate.

Will: Absolutely. 

Alwynne: Thanks so much. [00:26:00] Thank you.