Put Your Own Oxygen Mask On First: Parenting Adult Children With Compassion

In today's episode, Dr. Gene Beresin, Executive Director of the Clay Center for Young and Healthy Minds, explores the complexities of adult children returning home and maintaining healthy relationships during life transitions. Based on four decades of experience with youth and young adults plus his personal journey as a father of four whose adult children all boomeranged at some point, he offers practical wisdom for navigating these delicate family dynamics.

Drawing on revolutionary brain science, Dr. Beresin challenges our traditional understanding of development, revealing that neurobiologically, adolescence doesn't end at 18—but continues until age 26. This critical insight reshapes how we approach relationships with young adults who are still developing the neural connections between emotional impulses and rational decision-making.

For parents navigating the return of an adult child, transparency becomes essential. Conversations about finances—typically avoided in most families—need prioritization alongside discussions about household expectations, timelines, and mutual support. "The rare family that speaks openly about money," Dr. Beresin notes, "is better equipped to navigate these transitions without resentment building." The key lies in balancing empathy for the challenges young adults face with appropriate boundaries that foster continued growth.

He also reminds us of what he calls the "oxygen mask principle"—the essential reminder that both parents and adult children must attend to their own emotional regulation and self-care before attempting to help each other. When both generations put on their metaphorical oxygen masks first, they create the foundation for authentic communication, mutual respect, and relationships that continue evolving through life's inevitable transitions.

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Chapters

• 0:00 The Oxygen Mask Principle for Parents
• 1:07 Introduction to Dr. Gene Boreson
• 3:42 Understanding Boomerang Kids
• 6:20 Navigating Financial Conversations
• 18:12 Today's Young Adults: Social Consciousness & Entitlement
• 23:01 Brain Development Continues Until Age 26
• 29:36 Mental Health and Developmental Needs
• 35:13 Building Healthy Relationships with Adult Children
• 43:49 When Parents Feel Shut Out
• 48:17 Navigating Religious and Cultural Differences
• 51:59 Final Thoughts and Clay Center Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

One important principle. I think that applies to both parents and teens and young adults themselves. For the parents, it's like when the flight attendant says, if the oxygen drops, put the life mask on yourself first and then help the person next to you. If we don't control our own anxiety and our own emotional state, we can't help our kids age they are, whether they're very, very young or whether they're young adults. So we have to basically control our own emotions and anxiety through self-care and well-being worn out term, but it's it's, it's valid, I mean and that means diet, exercise, nutrition, good sleep you know all the things that folks talk about meditation and the same thing is true for young people that they have to learn to kind of take care of themselves and their emotions. Then they're in the most positive position to actually take advice, take it in, try something different. We all need to kind of put on our life masks together.

Speaker 2: 1:03

We kind of put on our life masks together. Hey everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the podcast. Join me, your host, denise Gorin, as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children. Together we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories and get timely advice addressing topics that matter most to you. Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children and, of course, when to bite our tongues. So let's get started. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue the podcast. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue the podcast. We are so glad you're with us.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Today we're answering a listener's question, but stay tuned because we're going to answer lots of other questions too, because our guest has been working with kids and younger adults for over 40 years. Today we're speaking to Dr Gene Boreson. He's Executive Director of the Clay Center for Young and Healthy Minds at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston. He's also a full professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. One of our listeners wrote a long email asking about issues involving a boomerang kid. Not your typical boomerang kid, but an adult child who leaves the nest, sets out on his or her own, is completely financially responsible, finished college, maybe even married, and then suddenly they're back in your home, sometimes even depending on you financially. Gene wrote an article about this a few years ago and we thought we'd get his perspective, but he reminded us that the article was written before COVID, so lots has changed and he's got a lot to share.

Speaker 2: 2:54

So we hope to talk to Gene today about that, but also pick his brain about many other things. He tells me he's got a lot to say about building healthy relationships with adult children and their children. He's a father of four with nine grandchildren. Almost all of them moved home after college or between college or after grad school, and all of them have kids, making family relationships complex but incredibly rich and rewarding. So let's get started. So welcome, gene. We're so happy you're joining us. For listeners I might mention that Gene worked with Ellen for many years at both the Clay Center and at Harvard. So welcome again, gene. Did I miss anything in the introduction?

Speaker 1: 3:40

Yeah, one thing that's new. Our chair, maurizio Fava, at Mass General established a division of professional and public mental health education, and what that combines is the MGH Psychiatry Academy, which is one of the largest CME programs, that's, continuing medical education programs in the country, if not the world, and with the Clay Center. So we do both professional education for people who are in health professions of all specialties and connect that with public mental health education for parents, caregivers, all who work with youth, and for youth themselves.

Speaker 2: 4:20

There's certainly been a demand for mental health educational sources like this. Is this the first in the country, and what do you think this will offer to just the general public? Or why did they establish this.

Speaker 1: 4:32

I guess I should say Well, a couple of things I should mention. I'm director of education and David Rubin, who runs the psych academy, is executive director. So you know, one of my residents from the past is now my boss.

Speaker 2: 4:46

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 4:49

Which is great because you know the son is father to the man, which is probably not politically correct.

Speaker 1: 4:55

I don't know how I would say it politically correctly, but at any rate it is unique.

Speaker 1: 5:00

Many departments and programs around the country have professional education and, more rarely, public mental health education, but combining them covers the waterfront, and the whole point is that we want to create a community of professionals and everyday folks parents, teachers and young people themselves to be able to speak the same language, to talk together, to have conversations that are more sophisticated, more nuanced. It saves time, it's efficient and better questions are asked and better conversations occur. So you know, as the parents and caregivers know what to look, the three W's, as we say at the Clay Center, know what to look for, when to worry, what to do and get some answers, presumably from the Clay Center's website or YouTube channel. And the professionals are online and even those who are not mental health professionals, like primary care pediatricians and primary care nurse practitioners and others, know more about mental health. Then we're all better informed with a trusted resource and we all can actually talk with each other in a more kind of thoughtful and expedient way.

Speaker 2: 6:16

That's great. Well, congratulations, because I think there's a need for this. There aren't enough quote-unquote mental health professionals in the world, so having others that also understand this, from nurse practitioners to internal medicine doctors, to all of this, that have a more knowledgeable view, is going to help everyone. So I will definitely link the Clay Center in the podcast notes so everyone knows more about this. So lots of help on this site too, for both young people and young adults, and I loved your three W's.

Speaker 1: 6:43

So let's, get started here.

Speaker 2: 6:45

We're going to start with the listener question, which I shared with you. She wrote a very long email that basically said parenting was a strength of hers. She raised her kids to be adults. They went to college, they got jobs and all of a sudden, at 29, her son was back home, and she didn't give the circumstances of the situation, she just said he's home, he's living here. I don't know what to do. Do I set up parameters?

Speaker 1: 7:13

What do parents do in these kinds of situations. Before we talk about what they do, I think you should kind of think about what are the parental concerns, what are the young person's concerns, and then how can they work together? Some of the parent concerns are, and it depends whether there are any other kids home, but let's just say that there are no other kids home.

Speaker 2: 7:33

I think she was definitely an empty nester. She thought she was done.

Speaker 1: 7:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:36

Everyone thinks they're done when they go off to college, but really the hard stuff just begins.

Speaker 1: 7:42

The rule of thumb is that when you're a parent, you're never done, ever, ever. You know as a parent and then as a grandparent, that happens. So I think that the parental concerns are how is this going to affect my expenses? How is this going to affect me and anyone else who's living at home, whether it's my partner or a parent or other relatives? How is it going to affect the situation that we have? Most parents, when their adult kids come home, worry about their future. What does this mean? Are they going to get stuck here? What are they going to do next? How do I know and finally, I think you know finances? I mean very few people in this country have enough money in retirement savings to live a long life. I mean with life expectancy. If you make it to 85, as one primary care physician said to me at MGH, you're likely to make it to 100.

Speaker 2: 8:37

Is that true?

Speaker 1: 8:38

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:39

Oh, dear gosh, Okay.

Speaker 1: 8:42

Statistically it's true, but you know everybody's situation is different. But from 65, I mean that's an arbitrary number. I mean many people are working into their 70s and some people retire if they're fortunate enough in their 50s and live on Social Security and meager savings. But most people in this country don't have enough money to live the way they lived when they were working. They're trying to squirrel away money and worry about the economy, and finances get to be really important. So that's the parent concerns. Then you have the young adult concerns, and that is hopefully.

Speaker 1: 9:22

They're thinking about things like what does this mean for my career? What am I going to do next If I don't have any money? What about my debt? I mean, do they have student loans that they're responsible for? Do they have a car that they have to pay loans on? And it may be that the parents used to be helping them out. But once they're out of college and they're supposedly launched, most parents assume that they're going to try to find a way to kind of cover their own expenses.

Speaker 1: 9:49

How do they maintain their sense of independence and autonomy? I mean, you know when you leave home whether you're going to college, as 60% of young adults do 18-year-olds-ish do and 40% don't. You have your own space. I mean, you're doing what you're supposed to be doing at that age. You're supposed to be seeking autonomy, separation, independence, learning to navigate the world on your own, not turning to your parents for every answer to every question, and to help support yourself. Furthermore, to have your own space so that you can have some privacy and start building your own world.

Speaker 1: 10:27

And then, when you go back home, for many it's kind of like going to high school again, for both the kids and for the parents. So those are the considerations. Given those considerations, the question is what do we do? And I think, in general, the answer is and it's complicated, it depends on each situation. First of all, I would have frequent conversations. I mean, we need to talk both about our situations, our worries, our concerns and about finances, since that's a really big concern for many, many empty nesters. Having another member of the household is an added expense. I think it's really useful to be transparent about expenses, although few people in families talk about money.

Speaker 2: 11:12

Someone told me there's a. What is it? A 40-70 rule? Have you heard of it? 70-40 rule or something Before you're 70 or when they're 40, you tell them everything about your expenses because it should be transparent to your adult children.

Speaker 1: 11:26

In my experience, it doesn't happen. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:29

But I think it's important.

Speaker 1: 11:31

It's very important. I wrote a paper with a friend of mine, mike Jelinek, who was then chief of child psychiatry at Mass General. It was called Money and what. The bottom line of what we said was that patients will come in and they will talk about drugs, sex, rock and roll affairs, all kinds of sketchy details of their private life. But very few patients, as well as very few parents, tell their kids what they're making.

Speaker 1: 12:01

If you ask a young adult what does your parent make a year, they won't know. They will not know Now they should for various reasons. But why don't we talk about what we make? Why is money in such a different category? I mean, many young people know that their parents have had affairs or have had marital conflict or have had substance use problems, that have had issues with the law, that have had unemployment. They had marital conflict or have had substance use problems, that have had issues with the law, that have had unemployment. They've been fired. They know a fair amount of details about the personal, social, interpersonal aspects of their parents' lives. But I'll bet you, if we asked 100 young people what their parents make, a small fraction would know and how much is put away for them. Some young people don't even know that there's a trust fund for them or that there's inheritance money put away.

Speaker 2: 12:51

But sometimes that's good to a certain age. You don't want your kid to think, oh, they've got millions coming to them, so they don't launch themselves. So there's sort of a balance here. We interviewed a woman. You should get this book by Cameron Huddleston Mom and Dad we Need to Talk, and it basically lists exactly what you need to be talking about, because I think everything you're saying is true and I'm not 100% sure the kid has to know everything, but has to have a good sense. You think about a kid coming back, moving in and parents are off to Hawaii for a vacation.

Speaker 1: 13:20

So the kid looks at that. Oh, they got lots of money, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2: 13:23

That doesn't mean they have a lot of money. It means they saved enough so they could take this vacation, which they've wanted to do for 100 years. But the kid who's moved back home might think oh geez, they shop at Whole Foods or they went to Hawaii. They've got a lot more money so I can stay here for a while. So that's why I think it needs to be clear.

Speaker 1: 13:42

So what you're saying, I think, is very important in that it's not just about money. It's about sharing what your goals, objectives, wishes, aspirations, plans are for the future.

Speaker 2: 13:58

That's what I think.

Speaker 1: 13:59

As we move into adult life together, that is, our young adult children and us. At home, we need to be talking about what we hope to do. Do we want to sell the house and downsize? Do we want to take trips? Do we want to travel and see the world? Do we want to live in an RV and really save money? And also, who's going to take care of the elderly? If there are the parents' parents still alive or elderly relatives, what's expected? What am I planning to do? And for the kids and for the adults to both know what their goals and aspirations are, then they can brainstorm together about their plans and they can give each other advice and they can talk with each other candidly. Why don't you try this? They can brainstorm together, they can have open conversations, but if we're not transparent, you can't have these conversations.

Speaker 2: 14:58

The adult child has to be open to the conversations. I would imagine any adult child that's coming home after launching and living financially independent is a little embarrassed and mad. And when you're embarrassed and mad or embarrassed, I should say, and unhappy with yourself it comes out in anger a lot of times with any age person, but I think even more so when it's your adult child. So don't bug me, I don't know what I want to do. I really screwed up. I don't know I need to be here and you don't see movement. But you're empathetic too, because you know things can go wrong. And should our home always be a safe space for them to come to or not?

Speaker 1: 15:40

It should always be a safe space. But let me put it two ways. First of all, even if they don't come home, they may not have left home. In other words, there are kids who are dependent, and so dependent on their parents that they're calling and texting every single day and multiple times a day and they really have never left home. They've never progressed to kind of self-sufficiency, autonomy, independence, and they're too dependent upon their parents.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Then they're the ones that come home, who've achieved some sense of independence, and they are angry and irritable and embarrassed and ashamed, often not always or they come home and it's not that they're ashamed, they come home and it's not that they're ashamed, but they feel like they're imposing. And then there's the question of they're interrupting their parents' lives and it's done out of necessity. Then the question is well, okay, let's come up with a plan, let's come up with some ways that you can kind of feel less upset and worried and concerned. What can you do to contribute to the home? What can we do to help contribute to you, to help get you launched, and you can have, we can have an open conversation about that.

Speaker 2: 16:54

I think that's important. Do you set a timeline for it?

Speaker 1: 16:57

Absolutely Now. Will that timeline always work? Well, you know, it's like what Yogi Berra said predictions are always difficult, especially about the future. So you know who knows? I mean, nobody expected COVID to have a two and a half year lockdown and look at what that did. I mean that brought a lot of people home in isolation. Look at what the economic downturn did and, with climate change, no-transcript population. But we'll get to that Before we get to loneliness.

Speaker 1: 17:56

They are among the most socially conscious groups that I've seen since the 60s. Now, when I was in college, we were dealing with the war in Vietnam, we were dealing with the civil rights movement, we were dealing with women's liberation, and it was a very exciting and important time and a big time of change. And we were extraordinarily attentive to what's going on around us in the country. And young people the Gen Zs and the millennials, by the same token are as well. They're concerned about things like climate change, about sexual assault, about health care, about disparities, not just in health care but health care, but disparities that are racial, cultural, ethnic, gender, lgbtqia+. They are very concerned about mass shootings and gun control. They are new activists. They were thwarted to some extent during COVID, but their level of social and global consciousness is quite extraordinary and, I think, extremely positive.

Speaker 1: 19:04

On the other hand at the risk of alienating some of the listeners out there, there's a sense of entitlement. Out there, there's a sense of entitlement. What about me? We hear about work-life balance. What that really means is I don't want to work all the time, I want to have my comfort zone, I want to have some time to kick back and relax, and I feel entitled to that because it comes in part with, I think, a general sense of entitlement that many people feel, both kids and adults. I think it's pretty pervasive. So it's not as though one can be socially and globally conscious and aware and care but at the same time try to figure out how do I balance that with my own sense of entitlement to relax, to be with my family, to have some downtime, to not work, to take it easy, to have some time off. So it's that dialectic that we're talking about.

Speaker 2: 20:09

So I wonder where this comes from. I have a couple questions and I want to ask about when you were talking about the texting. But I want to ask about this when does this come from? And is it across all socioeconomic levels, you know, is it more college educated that you think are like this? Is it more affluent families that are like this, kids that are like this? And number two, did our generation, the baby boom generation we were not as socially conscious. I think we worked very hard because we were really we're probably the first generation, I think, to have done better than our parents or something like that, whereas this next generation is having a hard time doing as well as their parents. How did our role play into what's happening right now with the millennials and Gen Xs and that sort of thing? Was it somewhat the way we were raised? Did we give them too much? Did we contribute to this in any way as parents?

Speaker 1: 21:00

In my experience and all the readings I've read about these different generations, I think it's not based on how much money you make. I know kids of very affluent parents who feel guilty about born with a silver spoon in their mouth. And then there are those who don't come from such affluent families who do feel entitled, particularly those who are worried about being replaced. The fact of the matter is that there are many people in this country that are worried about the future. For example, we're working class people who are worried about artificial intelligence and jobs being lost, advances in artificial intelligence and robotics and that means job losses or those who, for whatever reason, believe that this was a white Christian country that is no longer ruling the roost and that the minority is the majority, and they're having a hard time accepting that.

Speaker 1: 22:02

You know, you might call it racism or you know, and for some it's truly racist. There are there's clear and present danger among those who are angry, hateful, fearful of the change and who will take up arms if necessary to prevent this. And then there are those who are not that way but who just have a hard time understanding where they're going to fit in a new world and national order. There's a real range of attitudes that I've seen, from the extremists to the moderates, to those who can accept the fact that the world is changing. Society is changing and we need to learn to deal with it and learn to understand it, help craft the future and be empowered.

Speaker 2: 22:53

So how can my generation of parents of adult children support this next generation and help our kids through these difficult times that they're having or feeling? I think you're right. There's this cross of entitlement and this cross of. I'm in this horrible environment of climate change, racism, shooting, but I really need to go to Bora Bora. What's our role? Have we just launched them and we're quiet?

Speaker 1: 23:18

I think we have a very important role. Let's re-look at development. The notion that when you're 18, you're an adult and you're launched and you're on your own is nonsense. It turns out that, looking at neurobiology, the way the brain is organized is that the so-called lower or more reptilian centers dealing with pleasure and pain and excitement and impulse are not connected to the so-called higher centers that deal with logic and consequences and rationality. And those pathways connect and are what we call myelinated. That means they're coded and they become more established and secure Between 14,. The brain is not fully developed until 26. So between 14 and 26 is when we kind of connect impulsive, pleasure-driven behavior or avoidance of pain with rationality, with looking at the pros and cons and the nuances and the textures of life and able to kind of see the consequences of our actions. So 18 is just the first piece of that and we say that adolescence ends at 18. No, neurobiologically adolescence doesn't end until 26.

Speaker 2: 24:41

So maybe they shouldn't be going to college till 26.

Speaker 1: 24:45

Well, first of all, I think we're rushing our kids and overscheduling them. That's another whole issue. I think taking gap years and slowing things down is really important. I think taking gap years and slowing things down is really important, and I think that starting kids out too young is a mistake. Now there are some 18-year-olds that are ready. There are those that need some time off and need to work for a year or two. My oldest daughter took a gap year and worked in a bookstore. It was the best thing. I mean, she told us I'm not ready to go to college and you know, as a law therapist, she worked in a bookstore. She thought about her, what she wanted to do, about being an artist, and it was the best thing in the world for her. The best thing in the world for her.

Speaker 1: 25:34

But one of the consequences of making 18, quote adulthood is that you can buy a firearm in many states at 18. Many colleges don't allow parents to be involved in the health care or the mental health care of their kids. They're not privy to their grades. They're excluded from information and being involved with their kids. They're not privy to their grades. They're excluded from information and being involved with their kids. I think that's a huge mistake.

Speaker 1: 26:00

I think that parental involvement with young adults in college is super important. Now I have said that when I was in college no, don't trust anybody over 30. So that's, that was our mantra. I guess I've seasoned with age, but I realized that 18 to 26 year olds need some form of adult mentorship, supervision and and open, transparent conversations. And it can be parents, but it might be a friend of a parent or an older sibling or a mentor or a teacher or a spiritual leader. They need guidance and they need someone that they can trust and go to for that kind of guidance. And hopefully it could be the parent, but it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 2: 26:49

And after 26, do we slowly pull ourselves out of the situation?

Speaker 1: 26:55

Well, it depends on how the brain is developed. Okay, okay, even at 26,. I mean, if you happen to unfortunately have a wiring problem, the brain is really complicated. I mean there are 100 billion neurons each with 10,000 connections. That's like the most complicated thing in our galaxy and it's changing all the time.

Speaker 1: 27:20

Now, sometimes the wiring goes wrong. So you have attention deficit disorder or you have some executive functioning problems. That means organizational problems or slow processing speed. Or you have some visual spatial problems or dyslexia. Or you have some psychiatric issues problems or dyslexia, or you have some psychiatric issues such as anxiety, depression, shyness, temperamental problems. You know you're slow to warm up, you're socially anxious, you know there are a lot of mental health conditions. What's interesting about the mental health wiring and I do call it wiring because there is a physical component, but there's also a psychological and an environmental component. You can't separate the three, but one in four individuals of all ages will have a psychiatric disorder at any given point in time. That's about 25 and one in two or 50 over the course of a lifetime. Now, 75% begin before age 26,. 50% begin before age 14. And that's why the earlier we know what to look for, when to worry, what to do.

Speaker 2: 28:32

WWW.

Speaker 1: 28:34

That's the mantra of the Clay Center the more we know and the young people know, the more we're able to notice changes in behavior or things that are signs that are early, we can enlist. We can have preventative measures, and many psychiatric problems can be prevented. Those that can't. Early intervention is the name of the game. We all have to know what to look for and what to talk about, and it has a lot to do with what your adult child is like. I mean, there's some adult children that are riddled with anxiety, that have significant problems, with mood disorders or learning problems or substance use disorders.

Speaker 2: 29:19

Is it more today than ever before? There are definitely real mental health issues, okay, and I think that everything you're saying makes perfect sense easy to understand, hard to implement, meaning they can be so subtle. It's so hard for a parent, especially when the kid starts moving away to college and that sort of thing, to really be in touch with how this child is developing and what they might need. Then sometimes it becomes an excuse for the kid. I have anxiety, I have ADHD, I can't get along with people, I'm shy. How do you help them but not hurt them? By enabling them. It's a dance you have to do. That's very sensitive. I'm not saying they don't have these issues, but how do we help them without constantly babying them or enabling them?

Speaker 1: 30:05

I think it's a good point that you're making. I would say the same thing is true if your child, adult child, has asthma, diabetes, migraines, ulcerative colitis, autoimmune illness, I mean, you know, do you let them fly? Do you let them learn how to care for themselves and seek help when they need it and know something about their illnesses, of course. And so why not about mental illness? I mean, there's no difference, in my view, between a psychiatric disorder and an autoimmune illness. I mean they both involve emotions, thoughts, behavior, changes in lifestyle, medical care, knowledge and being aware of one's conditions and knowing what to look for and what to do. So the best we can do as parents and as young people themselves, is all learn more about these issues and these problems. And I think, as far as the safety net issue goes, part of the issues about growing up is learning how to be self-sufficient, learning how to be on your own and changing the relationship with your parents from one of being dependent on them to being kind of more like a peer and, of course, your kids, if you develop good communication and trust and you apologize for your mistakes.

Speaker 1: 31:25

We learn the most from our failures. We succeed by our failures. It's very hard for parents to let their kid fall, but sometimes we got to let them fly. And if they fall and they screw up, you know, my favorite psychiatrist, donald Winnicott, said we succeed by our failures. It's true and it's really true. I mean, we don't succeed by success after success after success. We learn the most, whether you're a parent, teacher, therapist, physician, business executive, except from your failures and hopefully, if you analyze them correctly and you realize what you've done and you make amends and you apologize and you do whatever you have to do to kind of self-correct, you'll be a stronger person and you'll do better person and you'll you'll do better. So I don't think we should coddle them. Some of them need to be held more than others. I mean, if you have a young adult that's autistic or on the autistic spectrum, that's a whole different thing, right.

Speaker 1: 32:22

They're going to need. They're going to need care taking Right, and if they have a severe mood disorder they may need some caretaking from time to time. Absolutely. But in between they will love you and appreciate you and your care by letting them kind of learn how to take care of themselves and learn how to rely on peers and on other folks, their own doctors and have their own lives as well. It's just a balancing act.

Speaker 2: 32:55

I agree. I think one important thing you really said was how we learn through our failures but also being open and apologizing. You can only learn through your failures. I think when you talk about them and you express them and apologize for them on both sides and I love your tone and the way you're speaking because it's very even I get more emotional and sometimes that's not good when you're talking about these kinds of things. So your tone is really great.

Speaker 1: 33:16

My tone isn't always as great with my kids. It's great. It's great on this podcast. Okay.

Speaker 2: 33:22

Okay.

Speaker 1: 33:23

I get worked up, but you know, to speak about parental emotions, one important principle. I think that applies to both parents and teens and young adults themselves. For the parents, it's like when the flight attendant says, if the oxygen drops, put the life mask on yourself first and then help the person next to you. If we don't control our own anxiety and our own emotional state, we can't help our kids, whatever age they are, whether they're very, very young or whether they're young adults. So we have to basically control our own emotions and anxiety through self-care and well-being worn out term, but it's it's, it's valid, I mean and that means diet, exercise, nutrition, good sleep you know all the things that folks talk about meditation. And the same thing is true for for young people, that they have to learn to kind of take care of themselves and their emotions. Then they're in the most positive position to actually take advice, take it in, try something different.

Speaker 1: 34:30

We all need to kind of put on our life masks together, as it were, and we do the best when we contain our emotions. Now that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be emotional with each other. I mean, at times emotions are super important, whether it's joy or whether it's, you know being super sad or anxious. We need to be honest about it and acknowledge it. It's really hard for me to help you now because I'm so anxious about your situation I can hardly control myself. Maybe we should take a break for a little bit, for an hour or so, and then talk again. Tools like that are really important and that requires self-awareness.

Speaker 2: 35:17

It's the parent. If they work on themselves, it translates to a better relationship with the kid. So that was really good, thank you.

Speaker 1: 35:25

The point of this is that I think we're all in this together that's another mantra, I mean, and we're all developing. I mean development doesn't stop at a certain age. Parents, even when they're, when the young adult children are launched, are still hopefully in the process of development. They don't just, you don't just freeze at age 50 or 65 or 70. You still have development to go through and you can still change. So the prospects for change and this is where there's great hope is that our brains, our emotions, our thoughts, our feelings, our actions are all able to be changed, no matter what chronological age you are, from infancy through old age.

Speaker 2: 36:19

Okay, so we've sort of gone on from our initial listener question. But when I wrote to you you wrote back to me and you said I've got a lot to say on the topic of building healthy relationships with adult children. I know you've said a lot now, but anything in addition other of your best guidance for parents to get on the right path with the development and the relationship? How has it changed for you? You've had young adult children, your kids are married, you have grandkids, you have in-laws plus you've probably treated people like that. Any pieces of advice you would give our listeners on getting on the right path, dealing with all those mixed relationships and that sort of thing?

Speaker 1: 36:55

Some of this will be repetitive.

Speaker 1: 36:57

I'm afraid but I think there's some basic things that we should be doing. I would say have frequent conversations and start young. I mean when I say young, I mean preschool. So you know, young adulthood is just one phase in development. But the more conversations we have, the more we ask open-ended questions about how our kids are feeling, thinking and what's on their mind, what their concerns are, validate their feelings In some ways. Even if you disagree, everyone is right in their perceptions and you need to tolerate and understand what they're thinking about, what they're going through.

Speaker 1: 37:42

I think being transparent about your own wishes and aspirations and asking about theirs is super important. Having conversations about the world and what's going on in the world is affecting all of us, whether it's climate change or whether it's the political unrest that's happening, because we can't escape it. Another one is where are you getting your information about self-help or about helping others or about the state of the world? Because, if it's from social media, be careful, because digital media is notoriously filled with misinformation and disinformation. So ask each other where did you hear that? How did you learn that? Where did you get that information? I mean, if we're going to be making rational decisions about our finances, about our life, about our parenting skills, about our parenting styles, about how to raise children, what our young adults are having kids, what they're learning about raising to raise children, what our young adults are having kids, what they're learning about raising their own children. A lot of it's from information they're getting on social media or online. Is it useful, is it good, is it true, is it valid, is it helpful or is it misguided? So we need to know something about that.

Speaker 1: 39:03

And I think the other thing is well, it sounds kind of simplistic, but doing things together. During the COVID lockdown and we were all in isolation, one of the things my family first did was we made a quarantine playlist on Spotify and everybody contributed songs, but making a contribution. Another example is my house. You can see this room is full of stuff and the whole house is this way, and my adult children come into this house and they say there's no place for my kids to play. You know you've got too much stuff, you've got to purge. Well, it's hard to let go of things that are meaningful and some people could do it with ease.

Speaker 2: 39:49

I do it with ease.

Speaker 1: 39:51

Well, you're lucky and you're, and you're, I can't, I don't. One of my kids is helping us kind of let go of things and just give them away to the needy and not have as much junk, because some of it is junk. So I mean that's really very helpful.

Speaker 2: 40:13

Let me ask you this Is it hard being a psychiatrist and having grandchildren? Do you bite your tongue all the time when you watch your children parent their children? A lot of my friends have said as grandparents. Things have changed a lot. The advice they get from their pediatricians is a lot different than the advice we got from our pediatricians. Do you bite your tongue a lot or do you just or do you give your opinion?

Speaker 1: 40:34

Well, first of all, I don't use my shrink hat with my family, friends, my family and my friends.

Speaker 2: 40:43

How can you not do that? Isn't it just in you?

Speaker 1: 40:46

No, the bottom line is is that when you're a parent, it doesn't matter how you're trained. So I'll give you a great example. When my second daughter who's now she's going to be, she's 39 when she was, uh, when she heard that we were having twins, first thing she did was she, she kind of like, looked at me and my wife and said no, and she kind of held her hands and put them together and she said not one baby, two, one is pink and one is blue. Well, she was right. And my sister said take her to the stock market page and have her going to. So but? But? But then she played this game with these dolls on the floor kill the bad babies and she would smash them with you know a wiffle ball bat, and you know my first impulse and what I really did was I said, like you know a wiffle ball bat, and you know my first impulse, and what I really did was I said, like you know, caitlin, the hell are you doing? Now, that's not what a shrink would do.

Speaker 1: 41:52

Oh, I see what you mean Would I do that with a patient? Of course I wouldn't.

Speaker 2: 41:55

I would say what's bothering you, yeah?

Speaker 1: 41:58

How are you feeling about these babies, right, when you, when you, when you're a parent? You don't at least I don't analyze anybody, including myself, lord knows. You're not a therapist Again. Think about it this way we all have different roles. The role that you play at work or in your place of worship, or in your community, or with your kids, or even with your aging parents, is going to be different, and it doesn't really matter how you've been trained professionally. You know you can separate that. I think Now, if they ask me for professional advice, if one of my grandchildren gets a rash, even though I'm not a dermatologist, or if they sprain their ankle or they, but you went through medical school.

Speaker 1: 42:53

I do, I can weigh in about that and I can ask colleagues. And if they ask me something that's psychiatrically oriented, that's mental health oriented One of their friends calls me of course I'll use my psychiatric knowledge and training to kind of give that kind of advice, but it's only when they ask is that way?

Speaker 2: 43:17

Okay, our time is getting a little limited. There's two more questions I really want to get in that. I promised a couple listeners, so I want to first talk about do you have suggestions for parents who feel shut out by their adult children? I know these Facebook groups and social media but you hear it over and over again their kids don't call them, they aren't around.

Speaker 2: 43:37

You said earlier about texting every day and depending on the kids, and I have friends who get texts and everything from their kids every day. And then if you go on TikTok, there's this new TikTok thing where people go up to people and say how often do you text your mother, how often do you talk to your mother? And all these kids say, oh, every day, twice a week. I call once a week and I'm always reading it, thinking gosh, do I not have a good relationship with my kids Because I don't hear from them that often? And so I just think how do you deal if you feel like you're being shut out? When are you being shut out, and any advice in those kinds of situations?

Speaker 1: 44:09

Sure. First of all, I think if you're feeling shut out, or if you're actually shut out, the most important thing to do, I think, is to really think about what you may have done to alienate them, to isolate them, to turn them away from you. Are you being judgmental, are you critical, are you arrogant and not being aware of it? And so I would spend some time thinking, talking with your if you have a partner or a parent or someone that knows the kids and get some constructive criticism, and then I think you need to have a conversation with them and say you know, don't worry about hurting my feelings, you know, I feel that I'm being shut out. I got to take responsibility. The thing not to say is why are you shutting me out? I mean, that's a conversation closer. It's presuming that they're shutting you out and it's also presuming that it's their fault. Rather, I would say it feels to me like I'm being shut out, not included, and I would love to know what I'm doing wrong, what I'm doing that turns you off, and what I need to do to change. The kids respect that now. They may not believe you, but you've got to demonstrate in. You know, you've got to walk and shoot gun. But at the same time you've got to demonstrate in terms of your actions and your behavior what you're trying to do to change.

Speaker 1: 45:51

And if it's a relationship that's had its problems over time, you know you could say, look, if there have been times throughout your growing up when I've really messed up and this is the price that I'm paying, I can always get into therapy, I can talk to somebody, I can have family therapy. You know we can do a bunch of things. And then it really does depend on the kid and how angry they are or upset they are, or how much they trust you to make that change. And then you have to remember that it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. I mean, all behavioral change takes time and say this is not, I know this is not going to change overnight, but can we work on this together? And if they say well? And if they say well, not yet, not till I see you working on yourself, and I'll say, well, how can I show you if you shut me out? You know I mean so, you know, give me a little opening to show you that I've changed.

Speaker 2: 46:54

And then I'm working on changing. I don't think anyone can just change. You have to work on changing right, that's right.

Speaker 1: 47:10

So I think that would be the most important thing is to let is to let them know that this is something that that you care about and that if, if you've screwed up again, the power of apology is awesome and also, if there's a conflict that we have, uh, over anything, we need to resolve this. I mean there's this. I mean there's a real positive value of conflict. I mean when conflict between parents and kids, whatever age, are resolved, the relationship becomes stronger. You know, I wrote a blog for the Clayton Center on the positive value of conflict. I mean people think of a conflict as really being something negative that we need to avoid, and my feeling is is that conflict occurs in all parts of life, all throughout life, and it's unavoidable. The real important question is how do we resolve it? How do we? How do we successfully resolve conflict and then achieve a greater sense of closeness?

Speaker 2: 48:05

Okay, I'm going to find that blog and I'll post it too in my episode notes. I'm going to ask one more question. Someone asked me this recently and I said I would ask you. I want to talk about religion and culture.

Speaker 2: 48:17

Many listeners tell me that and this has been a trend, you read about it their kids are turning away from their religion or went a different route, married someone outside of their religion, and sometimes it's harder of the loss of tradition and culture than it is the religion. For example, I'm a Greek American. I married a non-Greek, so slowly it's watered down. It was hard for my parents. When I married a non-Greek, I tried my best to keep my Greek heritage alive. Married and non-Greek, I tried my best to keep my Greek heritage alive. But now, as I watch my children move away from it, I watch the culture disappear more and more, and many Jewish friends are telling me this too. So it's more how we help ourselves. I mean we're not going to change our children, we're not going to knock them over the head and say you better be playing bouzouki music and serve in tzatziki tomorrow night, but how do we come to terms with it in ourselves?

Speaker 1: 49:07

With great difficulty. Yeah, so it's not an easy thing to see that your kids, your adult children, for example are and many families now are blended in terms of cultural and religious backgrounds. We have to give them the space to kind of figure out what they're choosing to believe in and what rituals and cultural norms they want to adopt. What I found, though, is that, whereas they may, at one point before they have children, kind of reject the heritage within which they were raised, once you have children, you want to give them something. You want to give them some structure and some values and norms and morals and rituals and ceremonies to rely on rituals and ceremonies to rely on. You know, it's the rare case where they don't want their kids to have some kind of a cultural or spiritual identity. Now, it may not be the same as yours, but they will eventually, I think, find one.

Speaker 2: 50:19

Interesting.

Speaker 1: 50:20

And then what you have to do as a parent is accept it. Now you may, and if you, and if you have a blended marriage, your kids are blended. There's no harm in having two cultural events, Plenty of embrace, multiple cultures and groups. Others will choose to be atheists. Even in atheism there are norms and values and ceremonies and rituals that are important for their family, that are important for their family, and they may not be spiritual and they may not be the same cultural norms that you've grown up with, but they'll find something.

Speaker 1: 51:11

I think we've got to let them find their way. You know it used to be that you are X and you shall remain X. That's not the norm now. The norm now among the Gen Xs and the Gen Zs and the millennials is what do I want to identify with and how do I want to raise my kids? What kind of identity do I want my kids to have? And that includes both a racial, ethnic, cultural and spiritual, all of those aspects of identity, including gender identity. If we're going to really think about it, that's what they want their kids to embrace.

Speaker 2: 51:58

Okay, we're hitting the end now. I always ask my guests to leave two final thoughts that they'd like our listeners to take away. It absolutely can be repetitive, but two things that we've talked about or we haven't talked about that you really want our listeners to take away. It absolutely can be repetitive, but two things that we've talked about or we haven't talked about that you really want our listeners to take away from this conversation.

Speaker 1: 52:09

I'd say be open, honest and have frequent conversations with your adult children about your life and theirs. And I'd say, regardless of your situation, keep the door open for advice, support and counsel, without imposing it on them.

Speaker 2: 52:31

Terrific. This was really wonderful. You know, Ellen has said such great things about you. I don't know why it took us so long to have you on, but thank you. Thank you for giving your time today and thank you for joining us.

Speaker 1: 52:42

Well, I'm happy to come back. I mean, I can talk about anything.

Speaker 2: 52:46

I mean okay, I'll remember that.

Speaker 1: 52:48

I do think that your listeners would appreciate having the availability of the Clay Center. It's been 10 years now and Ellen was one of our founders as well, and we've got over 400 blogs, many video and audio podcasts, and we have a lot on our YouTube channel short videos, psas, q&as, and so there's a lot. There's a wealth of material they might find useful.

Speaker 2: 53:18

Well, I will definitely put the link in my social media when this comes out and also in the episode notes. Well, that's a wrap. Thank you again, gene. What an episode so much to think about. He certainly is a wealth of knowledge. Remember to visit the website. We talked about the Clay Center for Young and Healthy Minds. The website is mghclaycenterorg and, as he said, there's a lot of podcasts, a lot of blogs, a lot of information about mental health, child rearing, young adults, grandchildren, everything you'd ever want to read about. And, once again, follow us on social media. Support us by visiting our website at biteyourtonguepodcastcom. Go to the support us button and buy us a virtual cup of coffee for just five bucks. We will really appreciate it. A huge thanks to Connie Gorn-Fisher, our audio engineer, for brilliantly editing and producing this episode. Think about the power of apology and remember, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.