Ways We Sabotage Connection with our Adult Children

Ready to upgrade your relationship with your grown kids without losing yourself in the process? 

We sit down with clinical psychologist and author Dr. Francine Toder author of the amazing book:  "Your Kids are Grown: Parenting 2.O."  

We unpack Parenting 2.0—the shift from managing to relating, from control to connection. If you’ve felt that knot in your stomach after a call, questioned whether your help is actually helpful, or wondered how to be close without being intrusive, this conversation offers a practical, hopeful roadmap.

We dive into the subtle habits that erode trust:

• talking more than half the time, offering unsolicited advice
•  giving gifts with hidden strings—and how to replace them with adult-to-adult skills: empathy, permission-based feedback, and clear agreements. 

Francine explains why tension can spike even after children are “launched,” how generational shifts created over-involvement, and why your body’s stress signals are a cue to pause, not push. We tackle money head-on, exploring when support fosters growth, how to set timelines and expectations, and how to recognize double messages that quietly sabotage connection.

If you’re ready to listen more, judge less, and build a relationship that feels mutual rather than parental, this episode will meet you where you are and show you the next step. Pick up Dr. Toder’s “Your Kids Are Grown: Parenting 2.0,” grab her Parenting 2.0 tip sheet, and join our community as we grow on purpose.

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Huge thanks to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.  

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Gratitude, And Holiday Update
• 2:25 Introducing Parenting 2.0 With Dr. Toder
• 4:49 Why Tension Persists After Kids Grow Up
• 8:20 Listening Over Lecturing And Equality Cues
• 12:45 Generational Shifts And Overinvolvement
• 17:05 Money, Strings, And Hidden Expectations
• 22:04 Negotiation For Mutual Gain
• 26:38 Double Messages, Judgments, And Repairs
• 30:00 Building Identity Beyond Parenting
• 34:05 What Adult Children Need At Each Stage
• 38:15 Key Takeaways, Resources, And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the Podcast. Join me, your host, Denise Gorant, as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children. Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories, and get timely advice, addressing topics that matter most to you. Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children. And of course, when to bite our tongues. So let's get started. Hello everyone, I'm Denise. Welcome to another episode of Bite Your Tongue the Podcast. I want to apologize in advance. I've got a bit of a cold today, so my voice is a bit off. So thanks for bearing with me. Anyway, I want to start right off by thanking our listeners. If it were not for the thousands of downloads from over 150 countries, that's true, guys. We are getting downloads from all over the world and numerous letters. There's no question I could not keep this up. But we're continuing, and we're continuing to bring you the best guests and fresh ideas to help you build healthy relationships with your adult kids. I don't know about you guys, but I listen to episodes more than once, sometimes more than twice. And I take notes. I hope you do too. Because sometimes it can get so messed up in your head. And some of the advice we bring to you is quite impactful, and we hope you'll use it. Now, before we start with our guest, I want to cover a tiny bit of business and a small favor. Please, please follow us on social media. I know, I know. I am not a big fan of these platforms either. But more followers really helps us build our platform, visibility, monetization, and our brand. And that will keep us going strong. So if you can just take a minute and find us on Facebook at Bite Your Tongue the Podcast and on Instagram at BiteYourTonguePod, follow us. It will help so much. And I'm really going to look at the numbers and see if this goes up after this episode. And also, I want to take a minute and wish all of you a very happy, healthy holiday season. This will be our last episode this year, but we'll be back in January with brand new conversations and some exciting new guests. All right, enough business, guys. Let's get on to today's episode. If you've been listening for a while, you know we've spent a lot of time. We've talked about boundaries, communication, respect, and all these basics about staying connected to our adult children. And I always think we've got to find new things. Well, today we're taking the conversation to the next level, to what my guest, Dr. Francine Toder, calls Parenting 2.0. Francine is a clinical psychologist, university faculty emeritus, writer, and the author of Your Kids Are Grown, Parenting 2.0. A book that's equal part mirror, guidebook, and a general wake-up call for all of us parents trying to redefine our role in our children's lives. She writes beautifully about the ache many of us feel when our grown kids are distant, busy, and defensive. When those quick calls feel more like obligation than real connection. She offers us some real practical wisdom to let go, not out of defeat, but out of growth. Today we're talking about what happens after the basics, how to rebuild a relationship that feels mutual, not parental, how to find peace when your expectations may collide with the reality. How to create a life that's full and satisfying beyond your role as mom and dad. So let's dive in to parenting 2.0 with Francine Toder. And right out of the gate, I'll let you know that she has a wonderful parenting 2.0 tip sheet for parents and adult children. She'd be happy to share it with you if you email her at Francine at D-O-C. That's doc D-O-C Toter.com. Hey so, Francine, welcome. I've really been looking forward to this. We've been doing this podcast for nearly four years, and I feel like we've talked about it all boundaries, communication, biting our tongue. But what struck me about your book, first of all, it was filled with just everything. I mean, I want these listeners to know this book just has everything from A to Z. You can almost use it as a Bible where you refer to things when you have issues going on. What struck me was it asked parents to evolve. And in the introduction, you write something like, Your kids are grown. What's the problem? So let's start there. Why do you think the tension doesn't end or even get stronger as our kids become young adults?

SPEAKER_01: 4:49

When the kids are grown, they're adults, at least those that are over 25, because 18-year-olds don't really have very good judgment in general. You're dealing with adults who have different ideas, values, different hopes, different dreams than you. And it can be disappointing and even unacceptable. You never dreamed that it would be this way. How could you know? Okay, time to adapt.

SPEAKER_00: 5:16

Yeah, that's exactly right. Time to adapt, but how could we know? You talk about it, and I've talked about it with my friends, this knot in our stomach or tension when something's going on with our adult kids. We all know we love our kids, they're like part of ourselves, and yet they're not. So they lose their job, they're getting a divorce, they're raising their kids in a crazy fashion. We think it's a crazy fashion. I don't mean to say it that it is a crazy fashion. But anytime they're going through painful things or things that go completely against everything you think you've raised them with, you do get this tension in your stomach. What's happening there emotionally between our adult children and us?

SPEAKER_01: 5:56

I think when you experience that kind of tension in your body, it signals something. Sometimes it's defensiveness, sometimes it's disbelief, sometimes it's readiness for a fight or an argument. But it's it's really called somatization. And this is when the body is acting out the emotions that you're experiencing. It's another clue. Sometimes we don't really know what we're feeling until our body signals us. It isn't a time for good outcomes, but that can be accomplished. It's a time when you feel that way, but you don't want to get into a yes but situation with your kids. Because it signals you this is not a good time for a conversation because I'm feeling either overwhelmed or I'm feeling unable to process things very well.

SPEAKER_00: 6:44

And many times that's the time that we do want to reach out. We want to say, what are you doing? or how can I help you? Or are you sure you want to get divorced? Right. So, what advice do you give to parents? What are the steps they need to take to not maybe get them to this point where they have this knot in their stomach?

SPEAKER_01: 6:59

For starters, we have dreams and then we have expectations, but it isn't theirs. So we may have imagined and maybe even played out our hopes in our imagination, but they're in a life stage where there are more pressing needs and worries than having a relationship with mom or dad, and they may take that for granted. Whereas it might be a priority in your life, and you want to fix things and help them and care about their decision making, they may not want to hear that from you. And sometimes it's perceived as intrusion or demand, and that's the worst thing that can happen at that time. Just basically, when you hear their pain, listen to it. Try to understand it, try not to argue with it, try not to say yes, but uh try not to fix it, just be with them. It's called empathy, understanding that that's where they are.

SPEAKER_00: 7:58

That's an easy thing to say and a very hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_01: 8:02

Oh, absolutely. You know, listen, all of this is hard to do. It goes against our very grain to take this kind of a stance, which is not the stance that we took while we were raising them.

SPEAKER_00: 8:14

Do you think my parents, parents of the generation before us, also dealt with this, or we were different kinds of adult children? What do you think's changed that this is such a talked-about topic right now?

SPEAKER_01: 8:26

I think things are much different than they were. Parents of the generation of the 50s, they let their kids roam free. Life sort of played itself out. We weren't as parents weren't as responsible for the kids' behaviors. Kids are growing up more slowly now. And part of it is the economy, and a part of it is the length of time it takes to mature, get an education, find a career, going to college or trade school or whatever it is. It all takes longer, and everything is more difficult today than it was for, you know, the generations that came before. And they were more resourceful, they were left on their own to solve problems, where today's kids have parents who are much more involved. It interferes with one's ability to develop on your own.

SPEAKER_00: 9:12

So it's really a detriment that we're so involved at so many stages in their life that they don't get a chance to sort of fumble and get up again and fumble and get up again. Everyone expects when their kids leave college they should have a six-figure job, be able to rent a good apartment or buy a house or whatever. And we don't have the patience. Why is it the footing taking so long? You say it's harder. I felt, I remember when I first started out, I thought the houses were so expensive and it was hard to get a footing. Is every generation harder? Is the next generation going to be even harder? I can't predict the future. Oh, you can't. What's the problem here?

SPEAKER_01: 9:52

I mean, I tried to tackle a lot of stuff in the book, but predicting the future isn't one of those things. I I it's hard to say. It does feel like increasingly the world is becoming more complex. And I think with the advancements in in AI, we're also going to see things get much more difficult for recent college graduates to find their footing, make a living. And the cost of living is extraordinarily high. It wasn't always this way. I could get into the economics of things, but I don't think that's relevant.

SPEAKER_00: 10:24

Yeah, no, no, I get it. I think we understand it. I just can't figure out how different it is now than then. I know it's a higher cost of living and all of that, but I remember feeling some of that as a young adult too. So I just wonder how different it is. But let's move on.

SPEAKER_01: 10:37

Well, what one thing, one thing I could say is that in an earlier generation, we let kids find out things on their own. And sometimes those kids who are now adults having kids, having adult kids, feel like they had to do too many things on their own. They had to stumble too many times. They had not enough support from their parents. And then what you know, in the next generation, I talk about this in the book, tends to go overboard in the other direction. And I think there's some movement back now toward moving away from being as involved with our kids as this generation has been.

SPEAKER_00: 11:09

No, that makes perfect sense. So they felt like they weren't attended to so much, so they really wanted to attend to their kids. Because I remember when I bought my first house, my parents weren't involved at all. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the takeaways is from one of your interviews with adult children was their desire to be treated as equals. What are some of the subtle ways that we're not showing them we feel like they're equals? And how can we improve on this? Even though we mean well, we might be doing things not purposefully.

SPEAKER_01: 11:40

Yes, and I don't think we do things to harm our kids. We just play out these familiar, overlearned patterns. So I I include some of these on my tip card, which by the way, I'm happy to send listeners. But here are a few. One, in conversation, if you're talking more than 50% of the time, then you're lecturing, not listening. We have this overlearned history of raising kids and giving them information, providing them with knowledge and giving them the best of what we understand about life. But when they're an adult, they don't want to hear that. They will stop listening as soon as you start lecturing. Another is don't interrupt, judge, or help without an invitation. And certainly don't criticize. You wouldn't do this with an adult friend. Think about it as they're your peer, they're your friend. I mean, obviously that's a different relationship, but you would never talk to a friend the way some of us talk to our adult kids. Just remember that they want that. Whether they need more or not is another story. For a quality, see them not as you want him or her to be, but as she really is. This is really hard. We have this fantasy about who these kids are going to be, and it's hard to let go of that. And often they aren't that, but we don't want to see who they actually are.

SPEAKER_00: 12:59

That is really hard because I think every we've talked about this in other episodes where the minute you have that baby in your arms, you have dreams, grandparents have dreams, everyone has dreams, and typically the dreams don't pan out. They do their own thing, they're their own person. But as a parent, you've given 100% of yourself. How do you then let go of that without being sad? Or I mean, I guess you grieve a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: 13:21

Well, first it's awareness. You have to be aware, that's what's going on. That takes a lot of work on oneself. You have to see that this is about you and not about them. And and you know, often we want to find some cause in the external world, not in ourselves. That's the work. And of course, I'm a psychologist, so you know, I understand the work, but it's really hard to do. Not just when they're born, we have fantasies about them before we're born. Yeah, I guess that's true too. What kind of children we'll have, right? That's true. It has a long history, and it's really hard to you know shift gears at that point. But they are who they are, and as much as you want to manipulate it so that they fit more your fantasy or your hope or your wish, it's not gonna happen. And the more you try, the worse it gets. Well, that's it, because trying is interference. And it's saying to them basically, you're not okay the way you are. And believe me, if you want to push your kids away, that's the way to do it. One more thing I wanted to add is make sure that while your words are saying one thing, your nonverbal message isn't saying something else, isn't condescending. Sometimes if we're talking to them and they're trying to make a point about who they are, where they're going, what they're trying to do, we're kind of biding our time, waiting for the next word to come out, got our arms crossed. We really show impatience, and that doesn't help anything. But awareness is the first step. Notice that you're doing this, get feedback from someone who's there as a third party, observing, so that you can do something about it.

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

I guess the thing I struggle with the most is you say you wouldn't talk to a friend like this. I feel like I have such authentic relationships with my friends that if they were doing something that I thought was just absolutely crazy, I think I would talk to them with much more directness than I would my adult children. So then sometimes I feel like because I'm paying so much attention and trying to be so aware of my actions and not overstepping, I'm not building such an authentic relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 15:25

With your friends, it's two ways. Right, that's true. That's true. You don't just tell them stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 15:30

No, no, you're right, you're right. They don't get offended in a way that your adult child might.

SPEAKER_01: 15:35

If you really had an equal relationship with your adult child where they can tell you when you're messing up, right, and where you don't get it, where you're, you know, you're you have biases and you're open to hearing that, then it you it can be more equal. But often it doesn't that doesn't that part doesn't really fit too well. And also when you're talking to a friend, usually, I mean, I like to say, is it all right if I tell you what I think? I don't necessarily just tell people that I disagree with them. For I mean, that maybe some of this is style.

SPEAKER_00: 16:11

You're a lot nicer, you're a lot nicer than I am. My friends know I'm completely direct. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

SPEAKER_01: 16:18

Yeah, well, I mean, not everyone goes for that, but um if your friends do, then you've got good matches there.

SPEAKER_00: 16:24

No, I do. I must have good matches. And I'm also fine for people to say, Are you crazy? You know, and I say, Well, wait a minute, what do you mean? I really want to hear it. I know that they respect me already, and I guess that's the difference. Our kids are not sure that we completely see them as equals. They think what we're saying is talking down to them as children. Whereas when I say to a friend, Are you crazy? or a friend says to me, Are you crazy? I already have a history that they think I'm pretty terrific.

SPEAKER_01: 16:52

Right. Okay, so here's the thing. Would you be okay if your kid said to you, Are you crazy?

SPEAKER_00: 16:58

Yeah, I really would be, because I would want that. Okay. I really would be. I really would. I'd say, What do you mean? What did I say? What was so crazy?

SPEAKER_01: 17:06

Right, but you'd be open to hearing it.

SPEAKER_00: 17:08

I would absolutely be because that's how else do we grow?

SPEAKER_01: 17:12

There you go. So part of the goal is to grow, right? Recognize yourself, recognize your own limitations, and grow. Well, that's that's healthy. Maybe because you've been doing this all these years, you have good communication skills. Not everyone does.

SPEAKER_00: 17:26

Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about money. You mentioned that money is sometimes a proxy, or parents use it as a control issue or a control function to control judgment, control behavior. Tell us about this and what parents should do in those cases.

SPEAKER_01: 17:43

All right. Well, try to think through this in an objective way and try to hold your emotions in check. Nothing causes more emotional reaction, I think, or defensiveness or secrecy than money. Their financial needs are balanced by yours, too. You might spell out the parameters, timelines, expectations on both sides.

SPEAKER_00: 18:05

What do you mean by timelines, expectations?

SPEAKER_01: 18:06

Well, well, I think when it comes to giving them money or offering them uh support for something, right?

SPEAKER_00: 18:16

Paying for child care, whatever it might be. I see so many people paying for so much stuff these days, and I'm thinking, what is going on here?

SPEAKER_01: 18:22

Yeah, well, again, that partly is the economy. Childcare was never this expensive and stuff like that. I'm thinking about formal arrangements where you give them money or they move back home and you need to support them. Part of it is teaching people how to manage money. That's how I read your question. It is a business deal fundamentally, and so I would follow through at intervals on both sides. This is training for the real world, but it doesn't work when your child is unable or unwilling to follow the rules that you both agree with. That's something to keep in mind.

SPEAKER_00: 18:59

But don't you think sometimes parents offer this money for control, like I'm gonna give you this down payment for your house, you better see me at Christmas. They may not say that, but underneath they're saying, okay, I've done all this for you and you're still ignoring me.

SPEAKER_01: 19:13

Exactly. That's an example of a double message. Here, I'm giving with one hand and I'm taking away with the other. And anytime there's I'm giving you something but, or I'm giving you something and, you know, it it's not I'm giving you money with no strings attached.

SPEAKER_00: 19:29

But no one ever says the and or but. It's in there, they might say to their spouse, I can't believe we gave them all this and we aren't even getting to see the grandkids or something like that. Exactly. You know, and do you bring that up? Do you not bring that up? The gift is a gift and it's done, right?

SPEAKER_01: 19:44

If it's a gift, yes. Example, if you give a gift to a friend, there aren't any strings attached, or are there? Again, everything comes back to awareness. When you give your kids money, you have to stop and say, as you're doing it, before you do it, why am I doing this? What's my motivation? All of this comes back to working on yourself as a parent of an adult child. Don't have expectations that they're going to do anything or that they care as much about this process as you do because they don't. They're in a different place in life. So if you give money, be aware when you're giving money. What why am I doing this? What's the purpose of this? What are my expectations back? Am I expecting them to somehow pay me back in some way? And if so, what is it? So again, working on yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 20:35

I think about grandparents who maybe just buy all kinds of clothes and toys and all this kind of stuff. And they do it because they love their grand could, but there also could be the message, I hate the way you dress Sally, or don't you want a nice church coat or something when the kid doesn't really go to church? Indirect messages, right? Right, right.

SPEAKER_01: 20:52

So again, it's what you know, why are you doing this? Just know because there will be resentment if you're doing it because you have an expectation of something, you will be disappointed, you will be resentful, and that will come out in the relationship. Self-awareness is the key to all of it. And of course, being a psychologist, what do you expect? I guess self-awareness is everything in the end. Yes, it is, and there are a hundred ways to go about trying to make that happen. Well, that's why I wrote the book.

SPEAKER_00: 21:22

So help us with that. But I want to say one thing. I know on your tip sheet, which I don't think I was clear about in the beginning, it has a section for the adult children, yeah, and it has a section for the parents. So I want everyone to know that. But you say start with yourself. So let's start with ourselves. But then could I ever show this to my adult child? Show what? The tip sheet. Here are the things you should be doing. Here are the things I should be doing.

SPEAKER_01: 21:48

If it's mutual, anything that has mutuality and with no strings attached.

SPEAKER_00: 21:53

But I'm not saying to them I don't like the way you're acting or anything.

SPEAKER_01: 21:56

You would start by saying, This tip sheet is useful to me. I can see ways in which I can use this. And there's a a section on, you know, adult children for you. You might find it useful or not again, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:14

All right, so let's go. You say the self-awareness, because there's a whole point in your book about looking in the mirror, and you say there's hundreds of ways to work on this. Can you give parents a few ways to start thinking and becoming more self-aware?

SPEAKER_01: 22:26

Yeah, the phrase that you're talking about is, you know, take a good look in the mirror. And then the rest of that phrase is look eye to eye with your adult child and dig into the dirt to tackle the impasse. So there's work to be done there. And here's some of the things that I would think are important. Negotiating. This is really important. Searching for mutual gain. That's the starting point. Developing a win-win strategy because losers always become bitter. It's a formal arrangement almost, if you're running into problems, real problems with your kids, it's a time to say, can we work on this?

SPEAKER_00: 22:59

So that's the negotiation.

SPEAKER_01: 23:01

That's the negotiation.

SPEAKER_00: 23:02

Okay, I'm trying to understand what you mean by negotiation. Coming together and talking about, I'm feeling some tension. Can we talk about this?

SPEAKER_01: 23:09

Yes, exactly. Okay. And but with the goal of mutual gain, mutual understanding, it isn't one way. I'm not lecturing, I'm not, you know, cajoling, I'm not guilt tripping. I just think we need to have an honest conversation, adult to adult. Then I would take stock of the common issues and the shared beliefs and the values rather than holding on to expectations that won't be realized. What is working now? What is good? What doesn't need to be to be changed in any way? And that's a great starting point because there usually is a lot of glue there, a lot of shared history, a lot of caring.

SPEAKER_00: 23:50

I just want to make this really clear. When you say what's working, they might say, We both love each other. We both are here because we want this relationship to work. What's not working, the child might say, I feel like I don't know, I'm not baptizing Sally. And I sense that gives you a lot of stress, and that's hard for me. Are those the kind of conversations? Or can you help me with that?

SPEAKER_01: 24:15

Yeah, well, I mean, you get to that. Okay. One of the things you might do is to identify the hot spots and avoid them from now. Because when you first start negotiating, you don't want to pick the toughest issue possible. Okay. Because that it's a non-starter. I mean, that's a cause for both people to both sides to dig in and and not get anywhere. You acknowledge, well, okay, I really want you to have her baptized, and you don't. Let's leave that aside from for the moment. Let's start with some other issues that aren't so hard to tackle. Because where you're dug in, you're gonna clash.

SPEAKER_00: 24:50

What are issues that might not be so hard to tackle that people might have? I can't even think of things that aren't Oh visit visiting. Oh, holidays. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 24:59

Um, you know, traditions, the way you feel about the work I do. I interesting. And save the things that you think are the most difficult for last. You could say that with your adult child. Let's pick the things that aren't too tough to work on and and let's let's start with those. Yeah. Let me go on with a few others. Okay. Uh understand that you're usually the one who wants to resolve the issues.

SPEAKER_00: 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:24

They may be okay with the status quo. Whatever's bothering you may not be of concern to them. And they may go, whatever, there's nothing for me to talk about here because what's your problem, not mine. How do you react to that? That's not going to go anywhere because they don't feel they they have any investment in it. Well, you might put that off to something like, well, if it's very important to me, I will come back to it. Another thing would be to demonstrate your willingness to participate and adapt. A lot of parents get really dug in, get defensive, feel like I've done the best I can, and basically that's it. It's like door closed. When we all continue to evolve and grow and understand things in different ways, keep that in mind. I would focus on the present. I wouldn't be pulling stuff from the history because that requires deeper work and that part's more, you know, you never did this, you never did that, whatever, whatever, in the way back, leave it on the table and avoid getting sidetracked. It's really easy when you start having these kinds of discussions to get sidetracked into all the things that you said you weren't going to cover, you know. And then you go, and then the negotiation can go nowhere.

SPEAKER_00: 26:37

I guess you have to be really careful. I could see if I did this kind of thing with my adult children, they'd say, Mom, every time I'm with you, you want to negotiate. It seems to me, pick a special time and don't do it too often.

SPEAKER_01: 26:48

Yeah, well, let's say they said that every time you want to get together. And so what would your response be?

SPEAKER_00: 26:54

My response at that point would be, I guess I really don't know I'm doing that. So I appreciate your saying it, and we'll try to put it aside. And maybe when we both have things to discuss, we'll come together.

SPEAKER_01: 27:04

Oh, so healthy. Is that good?

SPEAKER_00: 27:07

Oh, I don't wonder, am I saying the right thing or not?

SPEAKER_01: 27:10

Well, I'm not the arbiter of the ultimate truth, but I can say that that sounds like a healthy response. Letting go, right? Yeah, yeah. They tell you, mom, you're doing this again, and you go, Oh, thanks for the feedback. Uh I'll try harder, I'll try better. Well, what does that tell them? That tells them you care enough to put aside something that keeps coming back that you obviously don't want to deal with, but you're willing to not deal with it for their sake.

SPEAKER_00: 27:38

Right. No, that makes sense. I want to go back to this misunderstanding and double messages. You talk about double messages and mixed messages. What are some of the most common double messages parents may send without realizing it? And what can they do about it?

SPEAKER_01: 27:52

Anything that has a butt on the end was probably a double message. I like your hair, but yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00: 27:59

Your new house is great, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 28:01

Yeah, I'm thinking of some of the mistakes I make with my daughter who's 45, and go to her house and I'll say something like, She's somebody that doesn't have a she works, you know, has a family, she doesn't have a lot of time. I'm kind of a neatnik, I'm kind of a minimalist, she's kind of a maximalist. So if I walk into her house and I make a comment about, oh, it's so neat here, then the implication is you're usually a slob. Gosh, but but you know, you have to be careful what you do, or you have to be open to hearing the feedback. Mom, you're being a little judgy, she'd say. Yeah. And I go, and I go, Yeah, I guess I am. Yeah. So and then that ends it because she knows who I am, she knows how I'm gonna mess up. You know, I mess up.

SPEAKER_00: 28:49

None of us are perfect, we're all gonna mess up. So I think when we're able to say, Yeah, I messed up, and hopefully at some point they say they mess up. I don't know when that comes, but yeah, that makes sense. I want to talk about beyond parenting. You say that parents have to build their identity outside of their own children, and I sort of touched on that before. How do you rediscover yourself? I mean, I think that's a really hard thing when you've given 150% to your child. And I think it's easier for men than it is for women. Although I've seen my husband for the first time since we've had this grandbaby, wants to see this baby. So he never had this with our kids because he was working all the time. And that's right.

SPEAKER_01: 29:27

Well, taking emotional risks, trying something outside of your wheelhouse, being open to new experience, to new people, to new ideas. This can produce anxiety, but it also produces growth. My book explains how to do this with the kind of self-work that's required doing a a number of different exercises. Let's hear about some of those. Anything you try to do is going to have some risk and you risk being disappointed.

SPEAKER_00: 30:02

I have learned and done tons of things, but I still in the back of my mind it's always about my adult kids. Well what about your own life?

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

It's happier when they're in it. Okay. Well is there any way in which your life after having adult kids is di is different than before? In other words, when you were an active parent.

SPEAKER_00: 30:28

Oh yeah, much different. But because they're so far away, I'm always thinking, when will be the next time I get to see them?

SPEAKER_01: 30:34

We're talking about working yourself on yourself beyond parenting. So I think you've done a lot of the things to try to expand your life, to try to find relevance in things that aren't kids, that aren't grandkids. I think you're right. If you live far from your children and their children, it makes visiting so much more palpable and important.

SPEAKER_00: 30:58

And harder because you're it's so intense because you're there and you want to see them every day. If they were close, you would pop in and say, You want me to take Sally for a walk, or pick Jimmy up at school. And just those kind of intermittent connections, I think, are much more impactful than a whole week playing with a kid.

SPEAKER_01: 31:16

Yeah. Well, you know, the opposite could be true too, though, where your kids are really close and there's an expectation that you your involvement with them is going to be greater than what you want. A lot of people who are at this stage of life, like us, who have adult kids and grandkids, want an independent life if we're physically and emotionally, cognitively able to do that. And so we fill up our lives with lots of things that we could never do before. And then sometimes our kids feel almost feel intrusive in our lives because we want to take care of our own needs. So your situation is one way, but someone else might actually have a different experience where they feel like they want to kind of push back, but are trying to do it in a way that doesn't create some kind of discord.

SPEAKER_00: 32:05

You're right, because there are adult kids that expect the parents to be doing all the daycare, even if it means moving to where they're living, all of that. And frankly, a lot of parents will say, I did that. I don't need to do that anymore. What do you think we've missed that gets parents to this parenting 2.0?

SPEAKER_01: 32:23

Well, I think one of the things that I cover at the beginning of the book are really what adult kids need from their parents. Because this is where I started with a survey long ago and then have redone 30 years later, and find out that adult kids pretty much want the same things from their parents. And what are those? They want to be understood and appreciated like they are, in transition, incomplete, confused, vulnerable, whatever it is. They want their parents to appreciate their struggles and to be with them along the way, but sort of be there the way you were with, in some ways, with your your toddler who was learning how to walk. You let them fall down, and then they knew they could get up, kind of watching from the wings rather than being there to grab them at every moment where they could make a mistake. I think that's one of the things they want. And then they want different things at different stages. You know, they want your trust. By the time they get to their 30s, they're pretty much set in what they're thinking about, what they're feeling. They have a cognitive functioning of an adult. And so they basically want you to stay in the wings unless they call for you. By the time that you have middle-aged kids, and by the way, I often work with parents whose kids are in their 40s or in their 50s, and they're still kind of worried about them or interfering with them or estranged from them. The goal there is most adult kids at that point just want their parents to be okay. They just want them to have enough uh money and health to manage their own lives. They don't want them to be dependent if possible, but they recognize what it is to be an adult by that time. So then you have more of an egalitarian relationship. The history is really important. The kinds of things that parents come into a relationship with, their expectations, their history, cultural things, religious things, and even political things at this point make a big difference. This never was an issue before, but it is now. I think just understanding generationally things change, people grow over time. So those are the things that add-ons to exploration of yourself and trying to understand the best way to have a decent relationship, go from no relationship to some relationship, from a good relationship to a very good relationship. But a lot of the work has to be done by us as parents because this is not relevant to their life. They've got bigger fish to fry in their 30s and 40s. They're raising families, they're in a community, they have a job or a career or you hope. You hope. Well, I mean, most adults want to be working. Yeah. And if they can't work, there's usually some good reason. I cover in the book also, which are disabilities of all kinds.

SPEAKER_00: 35:22

Or mental health, drug abuse, all that.

SPEAKER_01: 35:24

Right. But but most people do want to carry their own weight and feel good about themselves when they do.

SPEAKER_00: 35:29

That makes perfect sense. I just want to go back one time before we close to the mixed messages. You mentioned you walk in the house and you say, Oh, the house is so neat, and the child might think, Oh, it must be messy all the time. It reminds me when they were little. And even with my own mother, if she would say to me, Your hair looks nice, my she was always, I have curly hair, she was always saying something about my hair. I would take that negatively. And I remember when I was raising my own kids, when they were little, you were always supposed to say when they came in, I'm so happy to see you. Rather than for some reason, we all comment, oh, you look nice. I like your outfit, your house looks good, I like your garden. It takes away sort of from just, hi, I'm happy to see you. We almost have to go back to that toddlerhood and just we're happy to see you.

SPEAKER_01: 36:18

You know why? Because the second part of that is a judgment. Right. Now it's a judgment of looking good, which implies maybe sometimes you look bad. Right. Or your house is neat because your your place is usually a pig sty. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 36:34

And the worst thing is you've lost weight.

SPEAKER_01: 36:36

Oh my God. That's a you know, don't go there at all.

SPEAKER_00: 36:40

And it's interesting. So it really, I think that's a really good thing for all of us to think about when we see our adult children or grandchildren or whatever. It's great to see you and not make any of those statements that then come off as the mixed message, as you say, double message, right?

SPEAKER_01: 36:54

Or mixed messages or judgments. Again, the judgment is our own. It isn't anything to do with it. You're right. You're right. So again, back to the whole idea of the work needs to be ours, as hard as it is, as pleasant as it is, they're not gonna do it. Period.

SPEAKER_00: 37:14

So well, and it's interesting you say that because when we say your house looks is so neat, in the back of your mind, you are thinking it's usually a pig's dye. So even if we think we're gonna get away with it, yeah, we're not. Well, and they know you. Yeah, they know you, they know and they know what you mean.

SPEAKER_01: 37:30

It's implicit in your in what you're saying. So again, you can't get away with anything. Forget it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. All right, two takeaways or three takeaways, whatever you want to say. Okay, so good. I I thought about this, and there are so many takeaways, but here's what here's what I landed on never give up on your adult kids or having a relationship with them. Even those who have experienced alienation often find a ways to connect. The research, the literature indicates that 80% of the time, even people who've been alienated for years can reconnect. There are a lot of ways to do that, and I touch on some of that in the book, but never give up. The second one was never give up on yourself. Your ability to adapt and grow and find new ways to express yourself are there. And this is a hallmark of this life stage. This is the first time in life where there's no agenda. This is an opportunity to figure out who you are now that might be different than who you were, and to do something about it that helps you feel really good about yourself. And it's also the stage that's called generativity, giving back to others. That's really part of this stage as well. Matt is covered quite a bit in the third section of the book. A final takeaway that I thought I bears saying when you've done your best and it's not enough, get professional help. A lot of people feel fuzzy about this. Family therapy, couples therapy, individual therapy. I even include a chapter on finding the right mental health in the book. As a medically necessary service, it should be covered by your health insurance or Medicare or Medicaid. People are embarrassed, but once you start talking either in a group or to a therapist, you realize that this is a very common problem, but it feels very taboo that one has a difficulty relating to their adult child.

SPEAKER_00: 39:26

Very good. Thank you so much. This has been terrific, and I will definitely put your email in our episode notes for people to get your tip sheet. If they're have the courage to share it with their adult child in the right way, they can do that too.

SPEAKER_01: 39:40

Okay, and so I hope that people will find your kids a grown parenting 2.0 helpful to them.

SPEAKER_00: 39:47

You can get it everywhere, and it's truly a Bible, honestly. I'm surprised that I hadn't heard of this till now. It has it all. If you want it all, it's all there. Very much well, that's a wrap. Francine, thank you so much. This has been a very thoughtful and eye-opening conversation. The heart of parenting 2.0, not doing more, but growing differently. And looking at yourself, look in the mirror. What kind of relationship do I want now? And who do I need to become to have it? So I've said this in so many episodes. We need to really look at ourselves. If today's conversation resonated with you, I really encourage you to pick up Francine's book, Your Kids Are Grown: Parenting 2.0. It answers so many questions and gives some real tools to move forward. And as I said at the beginning, Francine's offered to share her parenting 2.0 tip card with Bite Your Tug listeners. You can email her at Francine at DocToter D O C T-O-D-E-R dot com and she'll send you one directly. If you're on our newsletter list, I will include it in the newsletter. If you want to join our newsletter list and get this kind of information, just email us at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmail.com and join our newsletter. Anyway, as always, thanks for listening, for reflecting, and being part of this community. We're parents that are still evolving, still learning, and showing up even when it's hard. Thanks to Connie Gordon Fisher, our extraordinary audio engineer. And another quick shout out to ask all of you to follow us on social media. And finally, if you want to visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com, you can support us monetarily by giving a gift as small as$5. Until next time, remember sometimes the best parenting starts when you finally look at yourself and become the person you want to be. But remember, sometimes you have to bite your tongue.