Forget Them Kids — Challenging the One-Sided Narrative of Family Estrangement

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Family estrangement has gone mainstream — from Oprah to headlines about celebrity families — and the narrative is almost always the same: parents are to blame.

But what if that story isn’t complete?

In this emotionally charged and controversial episode, Denise is joined by psychologist and author Vivian King, PhD, whose book F* Them Kids* challenges what she calls the one-sided narrative of the estrangement epidemic. Vivian speaks candidly about her own experience with estrangement, the role of social media and therapy culture, and why many loving, non-abusive parents are being dehumanized and silenced.

This conversation is not about dismissing adult children’s pain — it’s about expanding the dialogue, questioning cultural assumptions, and asking hard questions about accountability, boundaries, and dignity on both sides.

Whether you agree or disagree, this episode invites you to listen with curiosity, courage, and an open mind.  We will talk about:

• The rise of “no contact” culture and the language of blame
• How social media and online echo chambers reinforce estrangement
• When therapy helps — and when it harms
• Why many estranged parents are not abusive or neglectful
• The emotional toll of estrangement on parents
• Should parents apologize “no matter what”?
• How to hold on to dignity, self-worth, and joy when a child cuts contact
• Why this conversation makes so many people uncomfortable — and why it matters

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Huge thanks to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.  

Transcript

Welcome And Listener Shout-Out

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the Podcast. Join me, your host, Denise Gorin, as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children. Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories, and get timely advice, addressing topics that matter most to you. Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children. And of course, when to bite our tongues. So let's get started. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite Your Tongue the Podcast. I'm your host, Denise Gorant, and I'm so happy you're with us. Before we start, I want to do a real shout out to all of our listeners. Thank you so much. Because without your listening, we wouldn't have a podcast. We hope you'll share the episodes you love and help us build and grow along the

Introducing Vivian King And Her Book

SPEAKER_01 0:55

way. All right, on to today's episode. This is a tough one, guys. Today we're interviewing Vivian King. She's the author of this controversial book called F Them Kids. Truly, that's the title. The subtitle is Challenging the One-sided Narrative of the Estrangement Epidemic and the Biased Therapy Trends That Fuels It. With Honesty and Straits, F Th Them Kids is giving parents of estranged children the power they need to relieve them of their guilt and move forward. This has become kind of an epidemic. Oprah did a big story on estrangement. Now we're hearing about Brooklyn Beckham not talking to his parents. We've been talking about this since season one, and it's taken the major media this long to catch up. But this is the first time we're talking about the other side of the story where the parents take the lead. Before I introduce Vivian, I want to offer another plug on our bite your tongue phone line, the number 719-347-1106. After you hear this episode, if you'd like a copy of the book, call us at 719-347-1106. The first caller will get a free book. That's right. If you call us, you can get a free book. Just leave your name and email and how we can get a hold of you, and we'll mail you the book. Otherwise, just call us and talk about anything. Tell us issues you're dealing with, what things you'd like the podcast to cover. I'm still getting so many emails, and I'd really rather you call these emails in to 719-347-1106.

Framing The Estrangement Epidemic

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Now, before we start, I do want to warn you there are some delays in this video. I think audio, we've closed it up a bit. But in the video, she was in Tanzania and I was in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And the connection was not so great. So bear with us. We're ready to get started with F Them Kids and Vivian King. Welcome, Vivian. Thank you for inviting me, really. It's hard to believe you're an introvert when you wrote a book called F Them Kids. What got you to do this and why the provocative title?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

I wrote the book because I've actually gone through estrangement myself with my own daughter. When that happens, and I don't know if you've gone through this, but the first thing you do is you think, oh my God, what did I do? What did I do? Your mind is just racing because you're like, oh, what happened? Did something happen? Did I miss something? And so you're really wrecked about it. What I'm finding is that a lot of adult children don't even tell you what it

Why Vivian Wrote The Book

SPEAKER_00 3:30

is you did. They just need the face, they they want to go in all contact, and so you're just left wondering. That in itself is just cruel. It's just cruel. When I started looking around, trying to understand what was going on, looking up estrangement, I came across quite a few support. It was crazy that I was seeing so many parents going through the same thing. Their children were saying the same things to them, same terminology. And let me be clear, these are not abusive parents. These are just break-dicked parents who did the best they could, all walks of life. The thing that made me realize that this is kind of an epidemic was that there were even therapists in our groups who were going through the same thing, estrangement. And so the more I looked around, the more I started digging, I started seeing patterns. I think the first things you go through is once you look back and you think, didn't do anything. What did I do? I didn't do anything. I've always been supportive and kind and I wasn't abusive or neglectful as when they were growing up. So it's like, what did I do? So then after you realize that you did nothing, then you get a little angry. Well, that's kind of where the man, fuck them kids. You know, it's like I didn't do anything. If I did, you'd make it, right? If you really want resolution for something, you're not going to say, Well, you did something, but I'm not going to tell you what you did.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Doesn't make sense. So you talk a lot about the terminology, and I think that's how you start talking about social media and online support groups playing a role in this epidemic.

Patterns Parents See In Estrangement

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Can you tell us a little bit about that? What your feelings are?

SPEAKER_00 5:13

So if you look online, especially different social platforms like Reddit, the way that parents are land-based and just it's horrible. If a parent speaks up, if somebody makes a statement or comment about, I'm going no contact. And then if a parent comes in and comments and says something like, Well, what happened? Well, they don't have to show you what happened. They're going no contact because you did harbor them and just no conversation, nothing. Just automatically, whatever that adult kid says, that's it. No conversation. I've kind of seen this is a bunch of echo chambers.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Why do you think this is? Is it a new thing? Has this been around for a while? Is it increasing? Why suddenly there's all this no contact? It's almost become a phrase word. I'm going no contact.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Does this give them power? I think it does. It's been something coming for a while. I think it may have started in the school system and parents slowly their rights and influence slowly being taken away. I think therapy, bad therapy, has had a role to play in it. I saw I was watching some sort of reality show, and they had therapists on there, and and there was a person on the show, and she was saying she felt some sort of way, and the therapist was was essentially putting words in her mouth. She was saying, Oh, what I hear

Social Media Echo Chambers

SPEAKER_00 6:40

is that you felt abandoned. What I hear is that you felt neglected. She was literally putting those words in that girl's mouth. The girl's like, yeah, yeah. So I think that's how it starts. Maybe things aren't going well in your life as an adult. Maybe you're new to adulting. And you look at things like, oh gosh, I'm I'm so I'm shy or I'm introverted. Then people, well, maybe it's because your mother was over here. It brings that back to therapy. The first thing based is what happened in your childhood.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

You bring up a lot of these key words, which I hear a lot: toxic, narcissistic, emotionally immature, and boundaries. You say that these labels simplify complex family dynamics. Like everyone has a little bit of that mixed up in their lives. Is that what you're trying to say? And yet the therapist might say your parents are emotionally immature or narcissistic or toxic, and then the kid draws back. Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

And then once they put it out there, start to think of different instances that may have nothing to do with them the parents being toxic. But if your mind puts those things together, so maybe you relate picking them up from a malgay, oh, that's now you're neglectful. Or you're telling your child to clean up your room, you're controlling.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Do you think when they ended up having their own children and realize how hard it is to be a parent that things change, or just continues because they're gonna do a better job?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I think that when they reach a certain point in raising their children, things may change. I think when they're babies and toddlers, they're just so precious

Therapy Labels And Their Impact

SPEAKER_00 8:20

and sweet that rebellious child doesn't come out until they're maybe like their preteens, and they'll get to see the challenges.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Right. You talk about dehumanization, how parents' pain is minimized or erased, how they don't even consider their parents' feelings. Is that what you're saying when you say that?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Honestly, I think it goes even deeper than that. I I think it's it's almost evil. It reminds me, the way that parents are treated, reminds me of how people were treated in the Holocaust, slaves in America. The way that they refer to parents and they they're toxic, they're narcissistic. It's like you take away their humanity. And only then can you justify treating them with all this cruelty that I'm seeing? This systematic humanization.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Other than just the no contact, what other cruelty do you see? And is there any conversation that goes on, or is it just we're done? I feel like you haven't been a good parent. I need to be away from you because you're toxic. What other kinds of things other than the new contact do you think are dehumanizing?

SPEAKER_00 9:27

I've seen, God, I've seen so many stories. The parents sometimes try to reach out, send gifts, they'll send them back, taking them from their grandchildren, just being so disrespectful, yelling about, cursing them out. I've heard at least three stories where parents who paid for weddings, and then the kid turns around and invites them from the wedding. They are not inviting them to baby showers, not that telling them they're even pregnant. And again, I'm not talking about parents who were abusive or Yeah, we're talking right.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

We're not talking about alcoholics or drug abusers or hitting and right, right, sexual abuse, nothing like that. Just the normal thing like that. Yeah, years of devotion and care are now changed into recast as manipulation, and normal parenting

Dehumanization Of Parents

SPEAKER_01 10:15

decisions become unforgivable sins. Why do you think this got rewritten this way? Is it something we did as parents? Our generation of parenting. I was just listening to something this morning where this woman said, You're supposed to give your kids choices. Do you want the blue cup or the yellow cup? Give them more control. This woman said, I was from a family of nine kids. I got whatever cup was there. Do you think we created this generation of entitled children?

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Absolutely. Because I tried to raise my children a little different than how I'm doing it. I'm not sure what you are, but in my generation, children were seen and not heard. You had no voice, you had to suck it up, buttercup. I think my generation, we tried to be gentler. I think we were the ones that ushered in this gentle parenting. For my children, I talked to my children. It was never like, well, do this. It was like, well, let's do this because, and think about it. Well, how would you feel? That's that's how my children will read. So, yeah, I think I think that we are part of the problem. I think that we did create this partially.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

How do you think it can be changed? You don't want to go back to seeing and not heard and sticking them in their rooms and all that. I mean, there's got to be a happy medium. You talk a lot about social media. See, I think social media might have a larger role in this than we all think.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

I think that social media validates these kids and what they're thinking. I've seen Reds where maybe an adult child is on the fence. Maybe they're considering reconciling with their parents. Maybe they're not sure if they were really toxic. I've seen people in the comments and say, oh no, your mom doesn't deserve you. They're manipulating you, you're enmeshed, or just all kinds of bullshit. It's like, what?

Everyday Cruelties Beyond No-Contact

SPEAKER_00 12:00

And it's like they reinforce this thing, and it's almost like they are punished by their peers if they give in or if they question the whole no contact thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Interesting. You also say something that I really resonated with me. You grow up, you aren't as successful as you thought you were gonna be, you're getting fired from your jobs, you're in a divorce, whatever it might be, and you start blaming your parents for your own failures. Is that part of the dialogue as well?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

I think it absolutely is, because if you're happy and fulfilled and living your best life, you you don't have time to look back and point the finger at somebody.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Why would you? And a lot of times those are the people that are more entrenched in social media, too. They're unhappy, they're looking for a community, don't you think?

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Absolutely. From what I'm seeing, the children were going, the adult children were going no contact are those who actually came from big families who were more assault, middle class. And even like one of the therapists who was in a group that I was in said that the children who were actually abused claim like shell to their parents. What they see is the children who actually had it good are the ones who are going to contact.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Interesting. The parent that wants to flip the script. What attempts can parents make to flip the script to reconnect? All these people in the mainstream, they always say the parents got to come forth and say, whatever it is, I'm sorry. Take blame for everything. What do you think the parent needs to do?

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I would not take the blame for anything that wasn't mine. I really want parents to get out of this sacrificial role that we are second-class citizens.

Did We Raise Entitled Adults

SPEAKER_00 13:40

We don't matter. Like once we give birth, we are now a piece of shit. And we don't deserve any love, any care, any grace. That's bullshit. I'm so sick of that. I'm so sick of it. No, absolutely not. I would not accept anything that wasn't my mind. If I did something, I would be the first to apologize. The very first. If you didn't do anything, if they're not naming whatever it is they claim you did, why would you take responsibility for something? And I'll tell you what I'm seeing. I'm seeing that even when you do that, it's still not enough. Well, your apology doesn't seem sincere. Or well, I don't believe that you really are sorry. So it's like you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. I'd say hang on to your dignity. And no, you don't have you don't have to kiss anybody's ass. I'm not doing that. I didn't do it with mine.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

You have a lot of strength and a lot of self-esteem. That's all I'm gonna say. How do you reconcile that when you love these kids so much and suddenly they're out of your life? How do you let that go emotionally? I think I would have such a hard time continuing my life feeling like my kid hates me after spending so many years dedicating my life to that child.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah,

Can Parents Reconnect Without Self-Erasure

SPEAKER_00 15:00

because Dennis, I love myself. I love myself. I don't I don't look at myself as some inferior being. I feel like God created us all to come and live this life and live our purpose. I don't think that my children are more important than me, and I don't think that I'm more important than them. And I think that's a mistake that we make as parents is that we treat our children like they're some God. It destroys them, it turns them into entitled little assholes. So I don't think that's good for them. I don't think it's good for us. So how can I take away because I like myself. I like myself and I deserve to be happy. You know, I want the parents to know you deserve to be happy. Think about it. At least we lived more than we have to look forward to. So you mean to tell me the rest of my life I should be sad and depressed and feeling guilty when I've done nothing except the best that I could.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

It's not they- No, I get that. I get that. Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. Emotionally, it takes a very strong person. So I give you a lot of credit. I really do. I think it's hard. I was recently at a friend's daughter's wedding, and there was a parent there that had a daughter, and she's estranged from her daughter, and it was very difficult for her to be at this wedding because she realized she'll never be at her daughter's wedding. You have to let go of a lot of the things that you had hoped for and wished for.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah. It's hard. I know it's hard, which is why I wrote this book. It's more than sad, it's dynasty to parents. And you're right, it does take a lot of strength and self-awareness to deal with this. But I don't think it's healthy for us to put so much into anybody. Not our children, not our spouses, not our jobs, not anything. I think that we we have come to this earth to live our lives and complete our missions, whatever that is, to live in joy and be fulfilled. And that's just what I think. I don't think that we owe our adult children anything beyond raising them. Of course, it would be lovely to have a relationship. I mean, that's

Choosing Self-Respect And Letting Go

SPEAKER_00 17:00

the goal. That would be wonderful. Grandchildren. Because here's the thing: it's not that we're the only ones who benefit. I think they benefit more from having us in their lives and certainly our grandchildren. We have so much to offer, so much love, and then it's a different kind of love because guess what? We're not stressed out anymore. We have more time and more resources and just more everything to give to mumble-need grandchildren, even our adult children. Like, I can do so much more for my my children now than I could when I was raising them. We just have to live our best lives, and and and nobody should be the end-all be-all to our happiness. Nobody.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

What was your relationship like with your own parents?

SPEAKER_00 17:40

I would say good. My my parents were, I think, like most parents. I guess my parents would be the boogers. Yeah, I'm a boomer. I'm a boomer. Yeah. So, you know, we were expected to do our chores, we were expected to get good grades. Just the basic stuff. They were fine. Were they always, I don't know, emotally available?

SPEAKER_01 18:03

What even is that? You probably didn't think about it. When I interviewed Joshua Coleman, he said, Gone are the days of honor thy father and mother. So I think, in at least my generation, I may have had issues with my parents, but I respected them 100% and went on. I might have talked behind their back to my friends and said, Why is my mother saying this? She's driving me out of my mind. So I think that this whole pushback against this entitled generation is really picking up steam with the doormat mom. People are coming out and saying, we need to push back. But critics of the movement are saying it's minimizing the adult children's pain. What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_00 18:41

I think that right now the adult kids don't need any more support. They haven't all. If you ask anybody, if you look on the internet, if you look at AI, everything leans in their favor. No one is speaking up for the parents. It's almost

Sibling Dynamics And Spillover

SPEAKER_00 19:00

like we deserve to be mistreated. And again, I'm not talking about abusive parents. I'm talking about good parents, really good loving parents who never abandoned their children, who weren't abusive or anything. The other thing that I'm going to focus on, because I'm going to try to do a podcast. Oh my God. I don't know how you do it.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

It's hard, it's hard, it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Oh my God. I want to uh really push back against is this whole her. It's insane to me that someone can make a claim against you and not say what it is. It's so damaging. That's like some that's like being arrested and put in prison with no trial. It's insane.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Even when you say they do have a reason, like you sent me to my room, even when there is a reason, to you, it doesn't seem like a very big reason, you know. And I've heard this before that I didn't like the way you disciplined me. Or I think I heard someone say, their kids said to them. You said what was it's a phrase that I think my parents use with me all the time. If you knew how lucky you are, so sometimes they do come up with reasons, but they aren't very, I don't know, big enough to go no contact, I guess, in our opinion.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, you know, I'm sorry to need my call bullshit. My daughter came up with I called her messy.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Oh, messy. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Messy, messy. She, you know, she said that one day, one night you woke me up and say, get up and clean the dishes. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm sure I did, because I'm sure I told you maybe five or six times, and you still went to bed without doing your chores. So yeah, I did tell you to get up. And I was

Closing Reflections And Call-In Details

SPEAKER_00 20:40

like, and no, I I I absolutely do not apologize for that. Add up, right? Get over it or don't. It's up to you. And you live in a household and you should contribute to that household.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Who do you think you are? Well, let me ask you this right now. If an adult child were listening right now, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 20:57

My whole platform is really not for them. Well, what I would say is that respect is a two-way street. If you want compassion, then maybe you should offer some. I would say that you don't get to demand grace when you're being cruel. And you don't get to rewrite the past without hearing both sides, which is your version of it. It's just beyond insane and just that fear.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

I think that's terrific. You're very thoughtful in your approach. I also wonder, I want to go back to when your kid says you said this or said that. Can you ever say, I'm sorry you feel that way? It wasn't intended to make you feel that way. Can you ever react in a more compassionate way and say, geez, I'm sorry you feel that way? That must have been difficult. Or I agree, it must have been hard to be woken up in the middle of the night or whatever to wash the dishes. And next time you'll remember to wash them.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah. The first time that my daughter when she estranged, she sent the text message, don't be timed actually here in Tanzania. So three of my children followed me in Tanzania. She's actually here. She had just had a baby, and I had been back and forth helping her to care for the baby. And I would invite her over for dinner, which I hate cooking, but I did it anyway. So we were talking about going to the U.S. So I sent her a text message telling her that we have to have a yellow feed card. And so she never responded. And so maybe a week later, I was like, Well, you know, she's working, she has a new baby. So I'm like, hey, is everything okay? And then I get this long text message saying that I have some resentment. I can't be in touch with you. I have resentment from my childhood. I was like, oh my God, I missed something. Something happened. And so my mom, somebody took advantage of her. I'm probably gonna have to go to prison because I'm gonna kill somebody. Because if I find out somebody did anything to my child, I'm just gonna lose my shit. I respected her wishes. I didn't contact her. I didn't put her husband in the middle. I just let her be. And maybe like a year later, I get an email from her. And that's when she listed all these you yelped, you yelled at me to get up and do the dishes, and you called me messy, and you needed to learn to emotionally regulate. I'm like, I'm sorry, ma'am. Those things weren't around when I was raising. They just made that shit up five years ago. I'm sorry that I don't know all this. So give me a break. And when I read that, it kind of made me angry a little bit because you're thinking that something horrific happened, and then you find out it's it's that. But before that, when she first sent the text message, I sent email to her to all of her siblings, just saying, I want you to understand me better. It was very kind and compassionate. Told them that which things could have been different. I wish that there was things that would have absolutely changed if I ever made you feel any kind of way, it wasn't intentional. And so I went right through all of that. But I said, however, if you want to move forward with the mutually respectful relationship, I'm here for it. I am here. I love you guys, and and and yeah, let's do that. But what I am not going to do is be in a lopsided relationship world constantly kissing your ass and walking on eggs. Y'all, I'm not doing it, not for anybody. I said my piece, she said a piece, and I said, Hey, if if being in my presence is triggering, you may pretend like I'm dead. That's fine. I don't want you to be uncomfortable. I want you to live your best life. And I do, I do. I want that for all these adult kids. Live your best life and be happy. And if my presence does something to you, anks me out. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. I want you to be happy. Happiness is is first and foremost, and at the same time, so is my happiness.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

That pretty much sums it up. I want to ask one more question. Does it spread through the siblings? When one person decides they they're going no contact because of X, Y, or Z, do the other siblings follow through, or do the siblings say, if you talk to mom or dad, I'm not gonna talk to you, or what happens in that simplicity relationship typically?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

It absolutely does. As a matter of fact, one of my children, I think, was the rave leader and was kind of you know in the ears of the other two. So initially it was three children. My youngest hasn't reached out to me and we're actually talking, but yeah, absolutely it does.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Do you think your youngest is getting some pressure from the older siblings or hiding it from the older siblings that he or she's talking to you?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

I'm not sure. Okay. I'm not sure if if he's actually talking that he's talking to me.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I just think it's so interesting because all the cheers parents have walked on eggshells, bit their tongues, which is exactly what my podcast says. What was the story? If you're the mother of the groom, wear beige and open your pocketbook or something. We were always in the background. And now you're coming out with a whole new perspective about all of it. I think there's a balance, and I think it's a good perspective to hear. So I give you a lot of credit for speaking out and talking like this. And I think it's going to give parents that are struggling a lot a little more strength to move forward and live their best lives.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

That's the goal. That's the goal. I want parents to feel good about themselves and realize that they don't deserve to be treated with this cruelty.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

So now I asked you to give a message to the adult kids, but for your takeaways, what real message do you want these parents who are estranged from their adult children to hear? What do you want them to take away from today's episode?

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah, what what I would tell parents is stop allowing your adult children or anybody else for that matter to define you. You know who you are, you know your heart, you know your intentions and your work. That's not up for debate. Stop allowing that. Stop allowing people to treat you like a piece of shit, and you're supposed to be oh, thank you, thank you for these little problems. No, you don't deserve that. No human being deserves that. It's just common, human decency. That's one thing. And and I would also say stop absorbing and internalizing grown folks' issues. Like, I almost want to call them like adult offspring because I think the connection when we say adult children, we were thinking, oh, they're children. No, they're not. They're grown-ups, they're crusty grown adults. They know what they're doing, and so they don't get a free pass to be cruel at all. We're not responsible for fixing them, and especially fixing things that then they won't even name. How can we even help them with that? Oh, let them carry what's theirs. We can take our weight and walk in your freedom and your joy.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Well, I'm gonna wish you really good luck with this movement that's moving against the walking on eggshells and biting your tongues and give you strength. And thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I mean, to me, so it's a pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Good luck, okay? Thanks, Vivian. Thank you. Okay. Well, guys, that's wrap. That was one hard episode. I really understand what she's saying. I think that honoring thy father, thy mother is important, and we are all biting our tongues to keep our relationships walking on eggshells. I thank her for stepping in for the conversation that's emotionally charged. And whether you agree or disagree, it's interesting to listen to. It's not about choosing sides, it's about expanding the dialogue and listening and learning about accountability in all different forms. Vivian's King's book of Them Kids Challenging the One-sided Narrative. I'll put the link to it in the show notes. As always, this is Bite Your Tongue. We want to stay curious, brave, and willing to have uh hard conversations. I want to thank Vivian for being with us. Remember, guys, our phone number, call us. I think we really want to hear what everyone feels about this episode. This is a controversial one. Call us. 719-347-1106. Give us a ring. Thank you so much to Connie Gartner Fisher, our audio engineer. This is going to be a tough one for her because there was a lot of delay since Vivian was coming from Tanzania. Once again, folks, I guess I've got to say, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.