UPDATED! The Mother–Daughter Relationship Makeover (And What It Really Takes)

This episode is for mothers walking on eggshells.
For daughters who feel judged.
For families who love each other deeply but don’t know how to stop hurting each other.

In this powerful episode of Bite Your Tongue, Denise Gorant speaks with Leslie Glass and her daughter Lindsey Glass about the hardest—and most hopeful—parts of the mother-daughter relationship. Co-authors of The Mother-Daughter Relationship Makeover and its companion workbook, Leslie and Lindsey share their deeply personal journey through addiction, family conflict, estrangement, and reconciliation. Together, they explore why these relationships fracture, how communication breaks down, and what real repair actually looks like.

What We Cover:

• Why mothers and daughters trigger each other so deeply
• The independence vs. control conflict baked into motherhood
• How “helpful” comments about food, weight, or appearance become landmines
• What makes a fight toxic—and what makes it repairable
• Why estrangement can feel safer than staying in conflict
• How apologies, accountability, and boundaries rebuild trust
• Practical tools for changing communication patterns
• Why healing starts with self-work—not changing the other person

Leslie and Lindsey also share practical tools from their workbook—like replacement phrases that diffuse tension, ways to identify triggers before they explode, and why doing the work separately (not together) can be the most honest starting point.

One of the most powerful ideas from this conversation is simple but uncomfortable: "You have to decide whether you want to be right—or whether you want to stay connected."

Healing doesn’t require perfection. It requires awareness, accountability, compassion—and sometimes knowing when to bite your tongue.

We’re also launching our new listener phone line. We hope all of you will call to share their stories, ideas, episodes they liked or did not like.  We'd like to begin answering these questions in each episode.  So give us a call now at
719-347-1106.

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Huge thanks to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.  

Transcript

Setting The Stage

SPEAKER_03 0:01

I'm doing the intro on the same thread that I'm doing the whole podcast. I hope it works. All right, let's go. Lindsay and Leslie class. Three, two, one. We're back with another episode of Bite Your Tongue the podcast, building healthy relationships with your adult children. Those of you that listen off often know we're the podcast where we talk honestly about the relationships that matter most and how to navigate them with more compassion, clarity, and sometimes restraint. That's the biting your tongue part. And if I sound a little slower today, it's because I just got home yesterday from a week with my new grandson. He's actually nine months old now, and what a change. He's all over the place. My daughter's work schedule was intense, so we went to help. We were lucky to stay in an Airbnb because we weren't on top of them. But go easy on me today. It was a lot of hard work. Here's the truth you're not the same person in your 60s that you were in your 30s. Not easy, but completely worth it. And yes, I followed all the advice from the podcast. Hugged my daughter first, asked before doing anything in their home, and respected their rules with the baby. So, anyway, let's get started with today's episode. It's kind of exciting. Mother-daughters has always been a big issue with everyone listening. So we're focusing on that again today. Today's episode, I'm gonna do that again. Today's episode is especially powerful because my guests don't just study mother-daughter relationships. They've lived it, challenged it, uh, nearly lost it, and rebuilt it. I'm joined by Leslie Glass. She's a best-selling suspense novelist, you might know some of her books, and her daughter, Lindsay Glass. Together they've written the Mother-daughter Relationship Makeover, and now they've released the Mother-daughter Relationship Makeover Workbook, a truly unique blend of memoir, self-help, and hands-on tools designed to help mothers and daughters connect, heal, and rediscover each other. They are also the co-founders of a popular recovery site called reachoutrecovery.com. And you'll hear more about this in the interview on why they started this site. They don't shy away from the hard parts. They're going to share all their information on the conflict they have, the separation. So whether your relationship with your daughter feels strained, distant, complicated, or simply stuck, this conversation we hope will offer real hope and practical guidance. So let's get started. Welcome. So I already did the intro, so I'm just gonna start. Let's get started. Welcome, ladies. You look terrific down in Florida where it's so warm, I can't stand it. Um, I just got back from Ann Arbor where it was 17 degrees, and you guys are living the good life.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Um listen, that's what we pay for now. That's right.

Triggers That Ignite Conflict

SPEAKER_03 2:57

But we're talking about mother-daughter relationships. And I think I mentioned to you it was our number one. We've done about three episodes on mother-daughter, and it's been our highest downloaded episodes because I think it's quite a buzz these days. Why do you think there's so much struggle with mothers and daughters as we become older and they're young adults and this friction develops?

SPEAKER_01 3:19

I I'm gonna jump in here. I'm Leslie, I'm the mom. And I think that it's important to note that your mom is your first boss, right? She has complete control over you from the moment that you're born. She is the one who tells you what you can do, what you can eat, what you can wear, um, you know, monitors you're going to school. And the daughter's job, child's job, is to grow up, be independent, have independent thinking, and be able to manage on their own. So there's an inherent conflict between dependence and independence that starts from the beginning. And I think it escalates over time, Lindsay, because there are so many basic conflicts between mothers and daughters. And what are they, Lindsay?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Yeah, I mean, traditionally, uh, and we did research this for the books, um, food, weight, appearance, friends, romantic partners, all of these are kind of big trigger issues for all moms and daughters. But, you know, one of the things we've been talking about lately is that we kind of believe there's been a bit of a communication breakdown in the last few decades. There's a kind of a lack of respect, the way we talk to each other, um, you know, often the way we say things about each other. If you actually take these phrases out of context, my mom is such a blanking, blanking, blanking. My daughter is so stubborn. You know my God, she's lazy. But I think we've gotten into a way of talking to each other and about each other that really diminishes um the love and respect we have for each other. So I think that's part of the problems. As all these big issues arise, uh, politics, sexuality, you know, where you stand, we've just we've come to a place where it's really easy to be able to let communication break down fast.

Bite Your Tongue Or Be Right

SPEAKER_03 5:17

And why do you think that is? You know, uh last week I did an interview. I don't know if you've heard of this book, but you ought to get your hands on it. It's called F Them Kids. Oh my Vivian King. Um, and this has become a real trend. You know, I'm also gonna interview that woman, Dormat Mom. You've probably read about her in the Wall Street Journal. And it's like they're pushing back and saying, F it. I was a great mother. They're gonna have to show respect. I'm not gonna bite my tongue and say, don't say anything. I'm just going on. Now, these are all people now estranged from their kids. Exactly. You know what I mean? I was just going to say, how is that working for them? Yeah, no, it's not. I mean, they're just they're tired of it. They're tired of walking on eggshells, they're tired of, you know, whatever. So I wonder kind of where this breakdown started. And like if you were talking to a mother today and suddenly, you know, she's really heartbroken, she doesn't have a good relationship with her daughter. Where does she start?

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Well, I would say knowing that how things are right now is is not permanent. Um, you know, lots of these relationships can change with time. Um, but there's plenty of work that that anyone can do right now, whatever situation they're in, to kind of find some find some clarity and even peace about what happened. So, I mean, that's why we write the books. It's it's a lot easier to find some relief and peace about the breakdown of the relationship if you can identify where things went wrong.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

How do you do that? Is that part of the workbook?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Okay, so walk us through that. So when I looked at the workbook, I wonder can a mom just work on it, or does the mom and daughter have to work on it together?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

No, you have to actually work on it separately because that's the only way you can really be honest.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

So your daughter doesn't get to look at the workbook and the mother doesn't get to work at look at the daughter's workbook.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Well, I think it can be done in any way that they want to, but certainly we recommend. I mean, I did this work on my own, and she did this work on her own, and we did not even discuss it with each other for years and years and years and years. So, you know, yeah, we would say do the work on your own and and the self-discovery, which is the first part. So we have a four-step process. Right, right. The first step is self-discovery, and self-discovery really involves everything from understanding what your mom's been through, your grandmother, what you've been through, and really trying to create kind of a timeline of what's happened in your family, you know, traumas, triggers, all the things that have happened that can help you understand and suss out, you know, what's my communication style, what's my personality style? Is it matching with this person or is it not?

SPEAKER_03 8:05

And you talked a lot about triggers and such. I want to give some examples of things. Everything we've said so far is very general. You know, you get to a prickly daughter, a prickly mother. The mother doesn't quite understand what she's doing. You know, she might walk in the daughter's house and say, My gosh, this place is a mess. Let me help you clean it up. And she thinks she's being helpful. Um, the daughter's saying, get the heck out of here because I don't need your, you know, you have no idea how hard I'm working. Um, so this tension's building.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

And so yeah, I just want to go back to the beginning because, you know, as moms, we're all moms for the first time. We're all moms for the first time. And many of the things that moms say as their uh daughters and sons are young, you're so lazy, pick up your room.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

You're um oh, we try very hard not to say you're so lazy. We say pick up your room, but go ahead.

Apologies That Actually Land

SPEAKER_01 8:58

But what I'm trying to say is that the things that we say to chill to small children may stay in their minds forever and get stuck in their minds. And we may remember the way we are as a mom differently from the way they remember us as we were as a mom. And so things that that we said, you know, one of the the conflicts between Lindsay and me was, you know, you're drinking, your your nutrition for the day is a coke, right? And so I'm reminding Lindsay all the time that she needs to eat something healthy, and and if I've been doing that since she was 15 and she's now 25 and responsible for her own life, that's a trigger.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Every time I mention anything that has to do with nutrition, or if I don't like the way Lindsay dresses, or she doesn't like the way I dress, and you know, that makes you look frumpy or that color looks bad on you, or whatever. Every time that look comes on your face, it looks like it's a judgment. So the triggers are what does your face look like? What are you saying? What are you remembering from the past?

SPEAKER_03 10:07

So let me ask you a question. Um, I think, and I don't know, you're a mom, I'm a mom. We you know, my kids are a little older. You're only 20, you're only 25. No, no, she was. I'm well weight. I was gonna say, wow, accomplished.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

No, I'm in my I'm in my mid to late 40s.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Oh, okay. Oh, well, then you really look beautiful for mid-oh, thank you so much. Anyway, I think if I say to my daughter, that outfit doesn't look very good on you, or I could even say, uh, that color looks good on you. Then she might refer to the other day that color didn't. But anyway, what I'm trying to say is if she says to me, Mom, that looks frumpy, I'm so open to her feedback. I feel like sometimes it doesn't go both ways. The mother cannot say anything to the daughter, but I'm so open. You know, I am a frumpy dresser. I'm, you know, almost 70 years old. Tell me what to wear. You know, I'm a little bit more open. Sometimes I think it doesn't go both ways. Tell me anything. I'm eager to learn from the younger people, but they're not so eager to learn from us anymore. Do you think that's true? I I disagree.

What Not To Say About Food

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Well, I agree with some of it and I disagree with some of it. You know, I definitely think we have a lot of um daughters really feeling that their moms are super, super critical and not wanting to hear about it. At the same time, I could speak to plenty of situations where actually the moms can't tolerate hearing any criticism whatsoever. Really? Absolutely. So I do think it goes both ways, and it really comes down to a couple of things. Okay. Um, you know, if somebody really doesn't want to hear what you have to say, and this is something we're still working on to this day, um, you do have to bite your tongue, you know, and I use I'm using your words here, but there's a lot that goes on in our family where I bite my tongue because I know I I may not agree with what's happening, I may not like what's being said, but it's whatever I'm gonna say is not gonna be well received.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

And what's my goal to keep people to have a good relationship, yeah, with all of these people or to be right? So I really love that. Say that again to have a good relationship with all of these people or be right. Yes, the best.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

And and that's what I think, you know, when you have mothers and daughters, you really have to decide, you know, if my mom or my daughter really can't hear anything from me, uh, can I accept that? So it's like I I'm not disagreeing that there are a lot of daughters out there that don't wanna, my mom was trying to tell me what to cater a party I'm throwing for my boyfriend in a couple of weeks, you know, and there's a part of me that's like, I'm throwing the party.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

But so that really, so but if your mother was a friend of yours, yeah, okay, and she said, Oh, you're having this party. I have this great recipe for X, Y, or Z, you'd say, Send it to me.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Absolutely. And you know what? I said, I'm gonna need some help baking the focaccia, but I have a vision of what the evening is gonna be. So you didn't get angry by men. No, no, and I also accept again, her intentions are good. She's a wonderful cook and a wonderful entertainer. She wants it to be a successful evening for me.

The Breakdown And Addiction Story

SPEAKER_03 13:32

So you entertain how you entertain, and she entertains how she entertains, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

But it's both of us, as, and that's what we always try to say. This mother-daughter stuff, you don't fix it and it's perfect forever. No, it's an ongoing negotiation of what can she hear from me, what can't I hear from her, and how are we going to manage that today?

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I I just want to add one.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

I want to add you don't have to raise your hand.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

I just I want to hear so much of myself. You're so funny. Go ahead. I I want to make one point. Okay. We all want to believe that we're good people.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Really, profoundly. Our daughters want to believe that they're good people and they're competent and they're kind and they're good, right? And moms want to feel I'm competent, I'm good, I have good intentions, and I'm lovable, right? So when you think that we all really want the same thing, the important thing is to provide safety for each other and remember that when we're making faces, or you're rolling our eyes, or Lindsay's telling me what to do, or I'm not, you know, responding correctly to her, that it's important to remember how do I make Lindsay feel okay and that I'm not interfering with her life? And how does she make me feel that she's not being critical of me? Because, you know, we're all in a little bit insecure.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

You know what? I asked her a couple days ago, she wasn't feeling great. And I I gave some feedback, it wasn't totally well received. And I said, if I have feedback to give, how would you like to hear it? Yeah. Like, do you want me to give you feedback? Because that's a really big thing. So I'm in recovery. Um, I want to hear, we're gonna talk about that in a minute.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

So go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

And and a lot of what we learn in sponsorship in recovery is are you asking me to listen right now, or do you actually want feedback and advice?

SPEAKER_03 15:27

Because that's what I yeah, I see your little friend back there. Um, what I that's what I was gonna ask. You guys have done a lot of work, and that's what we're encouraging the listeners to do. And I wanted you to tell us more about the book and the workbook and sort of what the process is for them. So you guys have done a lot of work and you can see that. So, what I want to ask is when someone says something that may sound hurtful, is there a response, or is there something you can say that says, you know, maybe I overstepped my line, I'm sorry, or how do you handle that?

SPEAKER_02 16:03

Do you want to take that or do you want me to?

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Well, when when uh let's say when I've said something that has offended my daughter, either way, I I think I just say didn't mean it that way. Sorry. And how do you take that?

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Um, I love it when she apologizes. Are you kidding? Uh, you know, and we both are very quick to say things off the cuff. Yeah. Um, and we've learned because of this process, because of our experiences, we've learned very quickly to say, oof, did that come out in a way that that I didn't mean it?

SPEAKER_01 16:41

You know, um, but I we were on a radio show just an hour ago, and um, I I wanted to put something in, and I'm never supposed to do that, never, never, never supposed to. I interrupted Lindsay while she was speaking on the radio. And so, you know, what what I have to do is say, gee, I'm really sorry. That was that was bad. Right.

Building A Recovery Mission

SPEAKER_03 17:02

But when you say something that's that's not so great, and you say, oops, the daughter still heard it. And I don't think it leaves their mind, you know, not interrupting on the radio, but um uh have you been eating a lot lately, or you know, anything referencing weight or hair or their child, you know, um Joey was really acting up at my house today. What's going on? Oh, I probably shouldn't say anything about that. So the daughter still heard it. Let me let me speak to that.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

That's that's good because when we had our little moment the other day and I said, can I give you feedback? It I actually thought she had said something about my behavior that I didn't think was totally accurate at that moment, you know, and and part of what we really work on um is being able to listen. So she she actually heard me in our relationship today. She doesn't have to be right, she doesn't have to be the mom that knows everything. So she sat with it for a minute and she totally understood where I was coming from. And the fact that she here's the difference. When someone says, Oh, you're being too sensitive, that is dismissive.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Somebody says, you know what, didn't mean it that way. That came out wrong. You know, I I love that you're making healthy decisions for your own eating. I love that you're choosing your own menu. I'm so proud of you that you're, you know, helping to throw a party, that diffuses it. Because you're acknowledging that you said something that might have been hurtful and you really it it wasn't what your your intention was at all.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

So but we were talking about you were talking about triggers before. And the trigger is if you say, Um, you know, I noticed that you're eating, you're you've gone back to your bad eating habits, you know. Right, right. That's a bite your tongue. Yeah. Be quiet. Your business. It's not your business what your daughter is eating. It's not.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

And I think as a as a mom or a daughter who feels hurt in that moment, I I think part of healing this relationship is feeling safe to say, hey, you know what? That actually hurt my feelings. Yeah. Yeah. Um standing up for yourself in those moments. And, you know, one of the questions we get asked a lot is, how do you know what's toxic and what's not? Like what's healthy fighting and what's not healthy for how do you know that? Well, toxic fighting is um saying, Oh, you're being too sensitive. You didn't know what I, you know, it you're not acknowledging somebody's feelings or hurt. You know, the healthy response is, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, sometimes I see things that always shuts it down, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm so sorry. You know, it's interesting though, what you said at the very beginning, your mother was always the boss, you know, what you changed when you peed, when you pooped, what you ate, da da da da da. And all of a sudden, you do have to bite your tongue. You're not the owner of her diet, you know, all that sort of thing. But it's really hard as a mother. So, in a sense, where if if I had an adult child that was eating all processed food and, you know, really unhealthy things and coke and soda all day, and hot dogs and potato chips, it would really be hard to be quiet because you love them so much. You almost want to say, How can I help you? Can I cook for you? But you can't say anything. Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 20:25

That's absolutely right. Because the more I got on to Lindsay about her health and her eating and her all of whatever her uh habits were, uh, the more I can was concerned about it, the more she wanted to get away from me. Well, here's here's here's what I would say, though.

Estrangement And Survival

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Here's the little tweak. When you're picking on somebody and you're shaming them, so I felt shamed, you know. Um I didn't think of it that way, of course. Right because you loved her, you were doing it completely out of love. Exactly. And that was good intention. And this is this is what's fascinating. So my mom was an incredibly healthy eater when I was growing up, and I just loved junk food. You know, I ate into my elbows, like all over the French fries, and the and um in my 40s, I'm an incredibly healthy eater. So her habits did, she did model healthy habits, but it was the picking that's the problem. I think the comment that the parent can make is hey, if you want to ever talk about adding a little bit more nutrition to your diet or healthy eating or what some of the um physical challenges you may face by eating a diet like this all the time. I am here, I'm concerned, I'm open to talking to you about anything you want. I'm not gonna pick on you, but I'm make a note. I don't think you have the healthiest diet. And if you ever want some help with that, I'm here.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Interesting. All right, let's talk about your journey and go through some honesty from the very bottom to how you recovered. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Great. Oh, you wanted us to start. All right. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

You tell me about your journey. I know that not everyone will face this because you went down a drug, you know, you you you went down a path that not all all adult children go down. And that's a harder mother-daughter um situation. But I think you use some of the same tools that anyone would use to come back from that, from what I understand. So I start.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

You start, Lindsay. Okay, I'll start. And how old were you? I want an idea of age. Okay. So I I want to begin with the context that we had some serious dysfunction in the family.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

Okay.

Slow Steps To Reconcile

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Um, so we did not have an easy-going family model because it's always important to give a little bit of context and understand this didn't just happen in a vacuum. Um, so it was kind of a tumultuous family situation. And we have alcoholism in our family, um, not just me. Uh so um already the stage was kind of set for certain kind of issues. I began my substance abuse when I was 13, uh, 12, 13. So between the ages of 12 and 15, I lost my maternal grandfather, um, who was the patriarch of our family, and I was pretty close to. Um, then at 15, my childhood sweetheart completed suicide, uh, was in an accident, and then his best friend completed suicide six months later. So we were faced with uh, as a family, a very traumatic situation. And in those days, this is like 90, 1990. Okay. So, you know, we weren't talking about trauma recovery, we weren't talking about addiction prevention very much. So, you know, everybody was doing the best they could. So I'm gonna I'm gonna fast forward. Right, right, right. I go down this path. Um, it starts to get pretty serious in my later high school and into college. This coincides with my parents both being very successful and often out of town. So, and then there were some other members of the family who weren't doing well either. So you have siblings, by the way. Yes. I have an I have a brother um who had his own path, and we don't talk about it, but he's doing great now. But um, you know, it was the perfect storm. So we got into a habit of fighting, um, and it got really bad when we were in college. And it was family fighting. It wasn't just us, it was sometimes the boys against the girls, sometimes we were trying to defend ourselves, but we got into this culture of just screaming at each other. And unfortunately, that never went away. So even after I got sober, I got sober for the first time at 21. It didn't stick.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

And was this just alcohol at this point or drugs too?

SPEAKER_02 25:06

Alcohol and drugs. Okay. Um, and I so I really struggled in my 20s. We had a very tumultuous relationship. We ended up, I got totally sober. She ended up not drinking too, but her story is very different and looks very different than mine. We started a company together.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Um and was that the recovery company that you started? Okay. So that was in your 20s. Uh, I was 30. You were 30. Okay. But how did you get to that point? You're fighting, you're, you know, what what steps did you take to get there?

Safety, Boundaries, And Fear

How Daughters Recognize Their Part

SPEAKER_01 25:41

I'm gonna go here. So basically, I uh uh I have to go back to to the fact that most parents don't know even now, 30 years later, what to do and what kind of um restrictions to put on their children when they start using drugs and alcohol. We still don't know. Right. Now, uh so when Lindsay started and Lindsay started going through her recovery, basically what we wanted to do was to create a a pathway for uh everybody to understand how what happens in the family, what does recovery look like? And um I stopped killing people for a living, basically changed my career from being a mystery writer to being a recovery writer. And basically, Lindsay, who um uh uh went to work at Random House and has a background in writing as well, um, what we did was we decided because AE and intervention and all of those shows were doing, were showing what addiction looked like, we we felt that it was not allowing America uh and the rest of the world to see what happens when people go into recovery. So our mission became became to um reveal the other side of addiction, which is recovery. And we launched, you know, one of the we were pioneers in basically writing uh articles and um uh about the the uh recovery journey. And we wrote articles about it, we launched a website that's you know all over the world, and um we also created a couple of documentaries. During this time that I was doing this, my daughter was recovering and trying to grow up from what her her emotional uh life stopped at the age of 13. So I was still being that mom who was saying, do this, do that, do this, you know, don't do that. Here are your tasks for today, you know, determined. Was she living with you at that point? Well, we she was living in I lived in a bunch of different places, but she live in my she lived in my apartment in New York. Um and off. On and off, on and off, on and off. But basically, when you do a a family business with someone, you know, um, and this is true for for everybody, there has to be ground rules. What's your responsibility? Can you fulfill your responsibilities? Are you being a fair employer? Are you being a fair mom? You know, all of those things are things that we had not worked out. So we were trying to help the world, but we were not able to manage our own relationship. So here are two people who became relationship experts, you know. And, you know, we we write about it, we know about it, we understand it, but we um were still playing the blame game. It was your fault that you did this, it was your fault that you did that, and and and but basically fighting over money and responsibility. And it got so bad at one point that Lindsay just said, I don't want to, you know, I'm leaving, I'm done with you. And um, that's how these kinds of um uh relationships get out of hand when there is nobody there to be able to be able to say, Well, this is what's fair, this is what's right, this is what's going on. Here are the other influences in your life, in your family that are causing making it worse instead of making it better. So um Lindsay and I literally broke up, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

She didn't you were estranged for a while, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Four years.

SPEAKER_03 29:20

Four years, you didn't speak to one another.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

No.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

How did you deal with that as a mom?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

I I cried, I was desperate, I couldn't understand why she would do this to me. I was um, you know, I felt victimized. Um, and I also felt that my mother, my my daughter was dead to me. You know, she I didn't know where she was, I didn't know what she looked like, I didn't know where she if she was living on the street, she had ghosted me. So I had to, I I so that was the moment. This is the moment where as a parent you say, Am I going to die or am I going to recover? And that was when I sort of said, Well, now I'm I have the freedom to be me now. You know, I don't have to take care of my daughter anymore, she's not driving me crazy. And it was peaceful because there was no fighting. Now I was very frightened all the time that I was gonna get that telephone call. But my daughter went off and and um rebuilt her life, and I rebuilt mine. And after four years of really working on ourselves and and um, you know, thinking about what happened and um doing work on ourselves, we were we slowly, slowly reconciled.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

How did the reconciliation start?

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Who reached out? So um an important, important thing to mention, we did this all with the help of mental health professionals.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

So, and and one of the reasons we wanted to write the book is yeah, we have a lot of original ideas in there, but we were supervised and we wanted to make sure that people who were gonna try this or thinking about this understood how it works. So um, yeah, I had both a therapist and was I was in 12-step programs. So I here's the here's the thing about self-help and recovery. We love it, we live it, we write about it because it's worked for us. So after four years of therapy, inner child work, cognitive behavioral therapy, 12-step programs, I wasn't angry anymore. Like I missed my mom. Um, I wanted my family back. I understood that my behavioral problems had caused a huge like I understood my part. Um, so everything had kind of changed. So I wanted to reconcile first. She wasn't really ready. Really? Yes. So I because I had the help of sponsors and therapists, you know, we knew what to do. So at first it was cards, sending cards, telephone calls, videos of the dogs. We both love dogs. We both love to cook. So it was reaching out and connecting with her in a way that made her feel safe, in a way that allowed us to um interact without having to. We didn't talk about anything that had happened for like a year.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

We also had the rules were the the rules were, you know, in our you don't ask me for money. Do do not ask me for money. What else? Don't well, I don't I don't think it wasn't that simple.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

I'd gone off and become independent. Yeah. So I wasn't gonna ask.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Um yeah, but the mother still had that in her she sh her history. So she was, you know, don't come back because you need money.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah. Yeah, and I I also want to say it's funny, we've been watching these shows where there's an addict daughter and they're stealing and you know, demanding money. And and I want to be clear, you know, our money issues had to do with work. It was stealing or safe for family wellness. If you have somebody in the house doing that, get them out. It's not safe. But, you know, and and that's part of it is getting to know each other again without doing any of the behaviors you were doing. So suddenly she's like, Oh, you have a job in a copywriting business. Oh, you have a boyfriend and you live in wherever, like, oh, you know, and you could almost see the the eyes widening and the light bulb, like she didn't, she didn't fail. She went out and she was okay.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Had you given up on her, I mean, I'm shocked. I I would never have thought this that the mother after four years would be more hesit more hesitant to reconnect. Usually the mother or the parents are waiting with bated breath for the estranged child to come back, yet you were not ready. Why?

SPEAKER_01 34:01

Well, first of all, I wanted her to apologize. Um I wanted her to apologize. I wanted her to say she was sorry for what she did to me because honestly, we we had a movie that was about to be released, and Lindsay left during our our pre, you know, during our production phase, and I was left with a company and employees that I had to pay, feeling basically that our that we were a failure because my partner left me. So um I felt extremely betrayed. But I think the other part of it, um, and you know, she left. Um, and you you can't just come back and and pretend it didn't happen. I didn't want her to come back and pretend it didn't happen. Um why else?

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Um well, but she was mad at you too. She left because she was angry. Yeah. Did you expect your mom to apologize too? Oh, good question.

Replacement Phrases And Scripts

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Um, you know, I knew that wasn't gonna happen up front. Uh she we ultimately both apologized to each other with time. Um you know, I I had no, no, I was not looking for an apology. You know, what happened, and and we've had some, even to this day, tough conversations about it. We both did wrongs. You know, we understand that today. Um, that, you know, I ran away because I was worried about my well-being. Um, and I understand that the consequences of my actions were severe. But I also felt that I had to do at that time what I did to be okay, stay sober, you know, struggling. So, you know, and that's part of our recovery is her coming around and understanding that I had to do some things to recover, and um and and also I had to acknowledge that that my leaving created damage.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

I I just want I just want to add, so Denise, you said why why would a mother not want to reconcile? And I would say fear. I would say a fear that you're going to to uh just go back to what you had had before. And I I I didn't want to be um, and particularly if you have a child that you feel is abusive or blaming of you, you don't want to experience that again. You don't want to. And in order for me to feel that I, and I think that this is really, really, really the core of the mother-daughter relationship, you need to feel safe with the other person. And it wasn't until I felt that I could be safe with Lindsay and that she wasn't going to beat me up for things that I had done, you know, in earlier in our lives, that we were able to just like we can have fun together, we can work together, we have common goals, we have common values. But our our um communication styles um and our compassion for each other has to be at the center of our relationship. And when I felt, as soon as I felt that Lindsay could bite her tongue when I annoyed her, that um that I was ready to reconcile.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

So there's two two parts to this question, because first I'm gonna say what that sounded like was F them kids. You know, the woman is saying, you know, the person I interviewed said, you know what, I can't take it anymore. I can't take them putting me down. I can't so if they're gone, they're gone. So similar to that. Now I want to figure out how you come back, you know, because I think very few young adult children learn that they have to bite their tongues. Yes. It's all on the mother. So I want to start, I want to go to the book and the workbook and how parents can work with these to move towards what you guys have found. Because I think it's hard for an adult daughter to recognize her role. I mean, other than you left the company, you let her left her holding the bag. That's a whole different thing. That could be two employees, you know what I mean? But but you were mother and daughter. So, how does the young adult child start recognizing what their role is in this when this mother's been working so hard on biting her tongue? And the daughter just is like, great, she's not saying all the criticism anymore. You know, let's take help my listeners know what some steps are.

Recovery Lifestyles That Support Change

SPEAKER_02 38:27

So I want to start with um there was there was a basic fundamental thing in me that acknowledged things weren't going well for me, and I wanted to know why, and I wanted to be okay. So when we had our breakup, which was at the advice of a therapist, I was in intensive therapy for years, not like a couple months. Like I was in intensive therapy for years, and I'd be doing one kind of therapy, and the therapist would say, Well, now you got to go to Al-Anon. And I'd go to Al-Anon and they'd say, Well, now you got to go to the financial program and learn how to be. So I had sponsors that sat in front of me and would hear me do my step work and would turn to me and say, because that sponsorship is different than therapy. They would say, The way you're describing your mom right now, you could be talking about yourself. And like I was getting feedback, you know, her telling me the things that were wrong with me or whatever, that wasn't gonna go well. But when I said, hey, I'm 30 years old, I'm divorced. I'm 30 years old, I'm a recovering addict, I'm 30 years old, I've never kept a job more than three years. That was facts about me and my life. So when I was able to be accountable and say, okay, here, what has been affecting my life? Um, and part of it was negative family relationships. So when I was able to step away and do all that work on myself, um, you know, I realized that, yeah, maybe I learned some of this stuff from family, but I was part of the problem. So I never wanted to reconcile thinking I wasn't part of the problem. I knew I was part of the problem.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

But, you know, I've got thousands of listeners, okay? Not everyone, number one, has the money to get therapy. What I hope is they buy your book and your workbook and work from there. Okay. So what are the steps they can take to under? I mean, you talk a lot about your book is understanding your past, understanding your triggers. What can parents or mothers and daughters do to start on their journey towards healing when they feel this conflict? And it might just be conflict. They don't feel what I find when I'm talking to people is they have a relationship with their daughter, but it's prickly. You know what I mean? Or everyone's the mother, particularly, is watching what she's saying all the time, trying to be sensitive to the daughter. How do they bring them together to a real compassionate relationship?

Compassion Over Public Venting

SPEAKER_01 41:12

I I think first of all, it's really important for daughters to understand what their mothers are going through. And they don't, and and that is what the workbook allows you to do is to take a look and and and on and have some compassion and understand why did your mother, why did why does your mother do the thing she does? Why does she say the thing she says? What is her culture? Where does all of this come from? So if you if you first look back, and and that is our that is our journey of self-discovery, and I think everybody should be doing this journey of self-discovery because your mother and your grandmother and your great-grandmother have all had traumas, they've all had secrets and lies, they've all had influences uh from the men and other relationships in their family that that have caused them to uh act the way they do to their to the daughter. Remember, moms are moms for the first time. They're working, they're they're uh running the house, they're taking care of their children, and the daughters are only thinking about what is happening and what their feelings are right now. And so if you if you look back and look at the culture, what is what is the what is the culture from hundreds of years ago that's still affecting the way my mother is talking to me, um, then you then you begin to uh to be able to say, oh, I get why she did this.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

I I think you know, another answer is get the workbook and just start the process. Because what the workbook does is it it does self-discovery, it talks about your biggest issues, it helps you understand your triggers and traumas, but it it goes beyond that. It gives you replacement phrases. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

So can you give us a couple examples of those? I mean, absolutely. What are some of those? I love to listeners to take away some tools.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

Yeah, absolutely. So um, yeah, we do everything from understanding your mood charts to understanding what the issues are. So we're gonna go back to food because it's such an easy example. Right, right. Okay. But, you know, literally changing the script. So if you're used to walking in and seeing your mother or your daughter eating badly and going, oh my God, pizza again, you know, we're gonna, we're giving you new words, which is, oh, okay, I'm glad you're making your own choices about food. Um, and I I respect however you're gonna be, or I just want you to be happy and healthy, and I support your choices. Why would you say anything?

SPEAKER_03 43:52

Sorry? Why would you say anything? If I walked in and my daughter, who's eating junky food all the time, was eating a big greasy pizza. Oh, yeah. Maybe I shouldn't say anything.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Maybe you shouldn't say anything at all. That's absolutely part of it.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

But you can also model, you can also model other kinds of eating. So you can get in the house. You can get other things in the house, other kinds of snacks and other kinds of food. And I mean, we've done our hamburger nights, you know, and and um, but uh uh other kinds of replacement uh things are not you look terrible in that dress, or you know, uh you could use the you know, you could you could use you could um lose a few pounds, you know, you'd look better. Uh I have a friend who has gorgeous hair, and her mother keeps telling, and she has very long hair, right? And the mother is always saying, You'd be so pretty if you cut your hair. Yeah, yeah. That's a common one. But the hair is it, it is, as Gloria Steinem once said, hair is everything. So you don't tell your daughter who has beautiful hair to cut her hair, um, because because that, you know, that that that's her pride and joy. Go ahead.

Don’t Let It Get That Far

SPEAKER_02 45:02

But you know, um, steps steps three and four it really include a lot about what you can do today to be healthier and happier no matter what the situation is. So on top of getting clarity about what happened, understanding your issues, understanding we have we have charts. We really want Yeah, I saw I I've looked at the book. Yeah, yeah. Um, but at the end, the other stuff we get into is how to uh lead a recovery lifestyle. And what that includes is exercise, spirituality, being of service to other people. I mean, a lot of your life and your relationships can improve when you stop looking at somebody else, you start looking at your own life and you start giving yourself the things that you need. You know, mothers and daughters are often very codependent. You know, if the mom or the daughter is looking for their happiness or approval from the other person, you know, the thing you can start doing right now is start working on it yourself. Um, and again, the workbook, the first book, it really walks you through all the things you can do to take responsibility for yourself and take the onus off the other person because you can't fix her. Um, and she may not want to fix herself, but you can fix yourself and you can learn to think about it in a way that's gonna make you feel better.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I do want to go back to this idea of uh fuck my kids. Excuse my the kids. You know, ask the kids, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Wait a minute, I'm gonna get it. Just a minute. I'm showing you see if I if I were the kid Here it is.

Two Clear Takeaways

SPEAKER_01 46:49

Oh yeah, fuck them kids. Oh, sorry. Um that's okay. Well, here's the thing. If I were the kid of a mom who wrote a book like that, oh it would be very, very hard to reconcile. And um basically I know that both of my kids were horrible to me uh verbally at various times in my life. And you know, and I I definitely got very, very, very angry at my son at different times. And there's always a moment that you ask yourself, what do I want? Do I want to have a relationship with this person or do I want to win and show them that I'm throwing them away?

SPEAKER_02 47:30

The other thing I mean, really it it's not I'm I'm not it's it's not one-sided. I mean, these fights that get so ugly, it's we all have to be accountable for you'll have to listen to the interview when it drops.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

It was very interesting to me. But a lot of people are making the same comments you're making about doormat mom, too. What adult child wants their mom out on the internet talking about their horrible relationship and what their child does to them?

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's really hard to come back. And and a truly, a lot of our reconciliation and the way things are okay now is we're not always airing the dirty laundry. No, we're not. You know, we said bad things to each other, both of we both did it. And part of healing and recovery is saying, we did it, we're sorry about it, we don't do it now, you know, and we help people understand that talking to each other in those ways, you know, one of the biggest things we want people to walk away from our books with from this interview. How are you talking to each other? You know, a lot of people are very quick to say, oh, my daughter says this, my daughter's awful, but where did she learn it from? Oh, you know, these things don't happen in a vacuum. Like I'm not pointing my finger at my mom, but we had family dysfunction. I learned it somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Maybe you learned it from dad, maybe you learned it from your brother, maybe you learned it, you know, where did you learn it?

Closing Reflections And Resources

SPEAKER_02 48:56

Just saying you learned your grandmother wherever you learned it. And and we know somebody that wrote a terrible book about her mom. Um, yeah, and she was panned for doing it. Uh, her mom was a famous person and she wrote about her alcoholism and the abuse. And, you know, uh part of uh healing was us making the decision not to do that to each other.

SPEAKER_03 49:19

Well, and sometimes I think, and then we're gonna we're gonna wrap this up, but sometimes I think people, particularly mothers and daughters, and I could be wrong, correct me. Uh you're the experts, I'm not. I just listen. Um, because you feel closest to this person, you take your anger out on them. Absolutely. And so both of you didn't feel good about yourselves, is my guess. That's right. And when you yell at someone else and say mean things to other people, you're really dealing with something inside yourself. And you can't say it to your neighbor, you can't say it to your best friend, but it feels safer to say it to your daughter, yet it really isn't.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

It isn't safe to say, no, that's that's correct. But I think once again, we all want to be loved.

SPEAKER_03 50:00

We all want to be loved.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

That's a really big thing. They do it in executive training um sometimes about how you can't treat your family the worst, because you know, you sometimes when you're home, you're your worst self with the people.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

Yeah, because you have to hold it together all day, every day, everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

And we what we are pitching is you still got to keep it together when you're at home. You gotta respect people. And if you have a daughter, it's interesting. I've I'll have to take a look at that, F them kids. Because from where I'm sitting, doesn't sound like a lot of compassion.

SPEAKER_03 50:34

No, maybe that kid has there isn't a lot of compassion. She does say, and you mentioned this, that some of your decision to estrange from your mother was your therapist. So some of it is that there's a lot of talk now on the internet, on Reddit, and everything about toxic parents, um, boundaries. Um, all these things are causing more and more kids to estrange from their parents. And at some point, well, and you also said this too. This was interesting. I almost said it earlier. You weren't doing great in your life. And they tend to blame the parent. Okay, so you did this to me, so I'm leaving you. So a lot of what she talks about is that too. Learn, you know, take care of yourself, don't blame everyone around you. So there's a little bit of compassion in it, but it's also her at the end saying, We've tried everything, now I just want to be happy myself. I can't deal with this anymore. So fuck them kids.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Totally, totally fair. And I want to be very, very clear that when the therapist recommended this, and we don't think it was the right thing, but what the therapist said to me is, you're never gonna be okay unless you go out and you grow up and you figure out who you are and what you want without the family.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

So it's it's an interesting thing. Um, and once I was out there on my own, there was no one to blame.

SPEAKER_00 51:56

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

If I didn't succeed, it was your fault, blame it on my mom anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

So a lot of young adults that are older than you were at that point are choosing estrangements more because they haven't lived up to what they thought they should love up to. And who are they gonna blame it on but mom and dad?

SPEAKER_02 52:13

And we are pitching also, try not to let it get to that point.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

You know, try to look at yourself, try to look at your mom, try to see who everybody is and where they're coming from, and if maybe a few switches around communication and boundaries can actually change things.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

So true. Everyone has to look at themselves, and I think you learn so much about yourself. One of my favorite interviews I did with was Lindsay Gibson, um, who wrote the adult children of emotionally immature kids.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Oh, wow, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:48

Boy, we're all a little emotionally immature, let me tell you. Everybody is, okay? And you have to identify it, learn from it, and move forward. Gosh, I turned this off just a minute. Um, anyway, okay. So we're gonna wrap this up and I'm gonna ask you both to tell me your two takeaways. I think I told you when I set up the interview that I always ask my guests for two takeaways you hope people remember from this interview. Can you tell me what those are?

SPEAKER_02 53:17

Um, my takeaway, I really want people to think about how they're communicating with each other. Like, really think about their words, the words that are being said to them and the words they're saying to other people, because it all begins and ends with how we're communicating. Um, and the other thing is because I'm a recovery person, I think it's critically important that you work on yourself first.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:44

Um, work on yourself first and pray and hope to whom things can change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:52

Well, I I think it's very important to have uh compassion. I think you need to be able to have compassion for your daughter and your mother, and um and and basically learn as much as you can about what's what what is going on with them and what they've been through and what kind of traumas they've experienced. Um, and also have have have hope. As you work on yourself, you think, and as I worked on myself, what did I do to make myself happy when my daughter was gone? Well, I did gardening and I did my orchids and I learned some baking tricks and I had my neighbors over and I started enjoying holidays again, and I basically recovered what was important to me. Um and so I wanted to recover the happy times that I had had with my daughter when she was little. And I think that we all have happy memories, and I think that we need to find ways to find go go back to that playtime and that enjoy time that we had um as mothers and daughters, as young as young children. So uh find hope, find compassion, and and basically really remember what those triggers are because the triggers are what is making me feel angry, hurt, you know, defensive, um, and how can I prevent that from happening to people I love.

SPEAKER_03 55:17

Well, I want to thank both of you so much, and I want to congratulate you. I mean, this has been quite a journey for you, and not only have you recovered from it, but you're helping other people. And that also, I would imagine, makes you feel good and makes for a more positive relationship with each other.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_03 55:38

Thank you so much. Take care. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 55:40

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_03 55:41

Wait a minute. The ending. Well, that was a meaningful conversation, really interesting, different from a lot of our other ones. But I just want to thank them for their vulnerability, their honesty, deeply fractured relationship they had and how they rebuilt it. Um, and for those of you listening, their books, the mother-daughter relationship makeover and the mother-daughter relationship workbook. It's not about perfection, it's about awareness, as they said, accountability, understanding yourself. You know, it's hard work, guys. If we want good relationships, we have to put the work in. And hopefully our adult children will as well. And if today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. Call us at our bite-your-tongue listener line, 719-347-1106. Tell us what struck you about today's episode, what you'd like to learn more about, and any challenges you might have in your own life with your adult children. I want to make sure to thank Connie Gorant Fisher. You have no idea how hard she works to make all of us sound better. And of course, visit our website, biteyour tonguepodcast.com. For just five dollars, you can support us. You have no idea how much it helps to cover our basic fees. I do this out of the bottom of my heart, not because we're making any money. Biteyourtonguepodcast.com, go to the support us tab and send us some support. And remember, sometimes healing starts not with saying more, but with listening better and knowing when to bite your tongue. Until next time.