The New Nomad

The Remote Show: Talking Async Meeting and Beyond with Tyler Sellhorn | TNN46

March 07, 2022 Andrew Jernigan and Allen Koski Episode 46
The New Nomad
The Remote Show: Talking Async Meeting and Beyond with Tyler Sellhorn | TNN46
Show Notes Transcript

If you feel dragged to a Zoom meeting in the middle of the night when most of your colleagues are fully awake because it's daytime where they're at, you are not alone. The lack of real-time communication is becoming increasingly prominent in the workplace. For this reason, asynchronous communication is becoming a preferred means of communication in the workplace - making it easier for employees to work remotely without fear that they're missing out on critical conversations happening at the office. Tyler Sellhorn, Head of Customer Experience at Yac, is your go-to man when it comes to this type of work communication.


Tyler joins our hosts, Andrew Jernigan and Allen Koski, in this episode of The New Nomad as they talk about the evolution of communication at work. Since most companies opened their doors to working remotely, communication has to be adjusted as well. They discussed why both synchronous and asynchronous meetings are important and the benefits employees and businesses can get from them. It won’t be surprising if companies adopt this shift as well. Truly an enlightening and timely conversation between our three nomads! 


[3:41] People are people long before they are workers

[7:40] Success in the internet

[12:04] Asynchronous meetings maintain remote team alignment

[14:53] Synchronous: Bond, Asynchronous: Work

[23:19] Transitioning to remote work is an individual's decision after all

[25:20] Trust in remote work is vital


GUEST BIO:

Tyler Sellhorn is the Head of Customer Experience at Yac. However, Tyler didn’t begin his career as a “location-independent” advocate. Tyler actually has over 10-years of experience in secondary math education under his belt. 

However, after over a decade of educating young minds, Tyler pivoted sharply to a fully-remote role in B2B SaaS in 2019, working for Hubstaff. Not only was this an industry change, but also a career change as Tyler went from educator to Customer Success Manager and then shortly to Director of Customer Experience. Since then, Tyler’s enthusiasm for remote and async-first work is clearly evident.

In Tyler’s short time in the remote and async landscape, he’s talked up a storm – interviewing the best and brightest in async on his Remote Show podcast, amassed a tidy remote-centric following on LinkedIn and Twitter, and taken up the remote gauntlet at Yac.


Tyler Sellhorn Links:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tyler-sellhorn
Twitter: TSell89
Website: tylersellhorn.tech/

Follow Insured Nomads at:

Instagram: @insurednomads

www.insurednomads.com

Allen  

Welcome to another episode of The New Nomad podcast. Tyler Sellhorn will join us today and it should be really easy for Tyler given that he is an excellent podcaster himself of The Remote Show. He's actually done more remote shows than we've done of The New Nomad so we could learn something from from him today. But you know, Andrew, I'm bringing my co host, Andrew Jernigan, as we discussed today, we had a little sidebar with Tyler before this is before this 18 months to two years when during the pandemic, we're all at home doing team calls, and other things. I used to be very paranoid that my dog would bark during a WebEx or a podcast, or something. We've gotten a little different though everybody kind of understands the remote work that we're living in and the differences they get. And when we bring Tyler and ultimately, some of you may even hear some knocking in the background, he'll explain but what do you think, Andrew? Do you think we've gotten a thicker skin now than yes, we've gone 18 months in?


Andrew  

Yes, and no, because so many folks are still so new to this. The company has just made the decision. And there's just such a yeah, there's still an adjustment curve that is taking place really quickly. And a lot of folks aren't adjusting to it as quickly as they need to. I think the dogs, they're the bosses are still on them about that crying child or the dog or the doorbell or whatever. But, you know, there's, there's the other aspect, Allen, of trust. Trust that people are getting the work done. Because, you know, so many folks had to be sitting chained to that desk, from nine to five, or from seven to 11. Whatever those hours were, they knew that okay, you must be producing because you're sitting and staring at the computer. Yeah, yeah. But really, they probably weren't producing as much as they are now. But yet the mental health is tolling because they, they're feeling like, Okay, I've got to do it. Um, you know, because that person is working late, and I'm working early and, and there does. Yeah, it's swinging both ways. This is gonna be fun hearing Tyler's approach to this because I know that he is. He's got his thumb on the, on the pulse of this industry.


Allen  

Well, I think let's bring Tyler First off, we're gonna have synchronous communication with Tyler today, but we're gonna talk a lot about async communication, things and, and Tyler, I know, we had a little fun with the beginning, if you could explain just a little bit about what's going on in your world at this moment that many people will get a chuckle about.


Tyler  

Yeah, so um, we are experiencing a home renovation currently greetings. Thank you very much, Allen and Andrew for inviting me on to The New Nomad pod podcast. Happy to bring, you know, my experiences here. And I'm really excited to be learning out loud with you all too. But if you do hear some loud noises, in the background of this asynchronous recording, those of you that are listening on the other end of this internet communication, we are having some some home renovations done. And there there is some pounding that was supposed to been completed long before we scheduled this recording. But lo and behold, life intervenes and brings us these foibles and have now become part of our working day. And it's time for us to just embrace the fact that people are people long before they are workers, right. And I think that's the thing that we're all trying to build for is, is enabling a future in which, you know, way on down the stack is what you might happen to do for a living. And way further up, the stack is who you are, as a person, I'm proud to be a husband and a father and a youth sports coach long before I'm doing anything else, including podcasting and working for a company full time. And, you know, it's really, really exciting to be here with you all just talking about these things. Because, you know, thinking of the nomads that you all are supporting, there's so many cool life experiences that are enabled by this mode of showing up to work.


Allen  

Well, and it's, you know, as we talk today, and I've seen a lot of thought written about, there's a lot more of these head of Remote type roles. And and one thing I find is really interesting is your podcast talks about that and, and maybe even you're talking about YAC, which is I guess you can explain a bit of that, but talk about what you're seeing out there. I mean, you've done 63 podcasts or 64 podcasts. You've had great guests, and you've learned a lot but you've also taught a lot. What are you seeing out there and what are you also thinking about this new role of head of Remote and other sundry changes in the corporate space in the individual space?


Tyler  

Well, one of my favourite questions that I've been able to ask of of many, many guests, including the original head of Remote Darren Murph. Job van der Voort, the CEO of Remote, I've talked to lots of different people, Chris Heard from First Base who does home office provisioning, have talked to Laurel Ferrari just names go on and on and on of people who were 2019 remoter. So that's the kind of my phrase of saying the folks that had really been out there for remote work long before it became the thing that people just know, this is work now. You know, especially during the pandemic, the question I've been asking is, tell us about the compare and contrast of those different epochs those periods of time? Where, okay, what was it in 2019 and before? What was it, you know, right now, during the pandemic, and what are you expecting to see happen in the future? And some, some big themes have have kind of drawn out for me, and this is the way I set it back to a guest recently, and I've kind of stuck with it is to say that 2019 and before remote work was a luxury for the lucky, right? And that during during the pandemic, remote work has been a requirement of the responsible, right? Yeah, and that in 2022, and beyond remote work is going to become something that we build as a part of a lifestyle.


Allen  

I like that line. And 


Tyler  

I really, really believe in that kind of, you know, kind of a zoomed out sort of sort of look at things. And I think for myself, I count myself among the lucky right, I joined a fully remote organization in 2019. Right, I decoupled my work from my location, and all of a sudden things went up into the right for me professionally, right, I just started showing up and, you know, like, like, we were joking earlier that I, you know, been following you all around the internet, like, like, we're we talked to similar guests on the podcast, and that, that there's, there's things that that like have happened for us, because we've chosen to kind of kind of hitched our waggon to, to the, to the internet stars of like, like, like going around the world that isn't really designated connected to a physical location. And I think that is going to become more and more the story of the most successful professionals in in anywhere is the ones that choose to reside on the internet, right? Who are the internet, people on the internet doing internet things? Those are the people that are gonna find the most success because they're not going to be tethered to a major metro to depend on, you know, finding great employment.


Andrew  

Right, right. Yeah, Tyler is what you're talking about reminds me of how that's expats had trailing partners, trailing spouses in the past. And those their wife, in my case, might get a great job in another country. And I would be there sitting with my laptop thinking, Okay, I gotta find work. And I would end up working remotely for a company while she was on a multinational assignments, and I'd actually have an a similar for her with an assignment. But those are the lucky that could work remotely. And now it's a shift of okay, I think I'm gonna become an expat because I can work remotely. And nations are saying, Okay, we're going to allow immigrants to come in, that have good income, instead of all these barriers for immigration, that were previously there, those are being stripped. So instead of it being for the lucky, it's, it's being extended to anyone, so that a company can hire someone from Kenya, that's a programmer. And all of a sudden, they have a great income. And they can prove to Greece, that they have a certain level of income. And they can immigrate with a one year visa to Greece, because suddenly, they're employed by a multinational company that doesn't care where they're based. So it just the change in the workforce with the the companies, the job sites, or not even job sites, the gig sites of Contraplural.com, the old Elance type environment, to where people could post that they're available, and companies can hire can hire them on a contract basis or full time. It's not just for the lucky anymore. But now how do we build culture? How do we communicate? Since we're not walking to the car together at the end of the day, we're not saying hey, let's run them to the pub at the end of the night or the bar or we're not having coffee and doughnuts in the break room. You know, it's it's I think of okay, do you communicate through Zoom, global Zoom calls? Or do you do it through an async method to where we're leaving messages and you hear him when it's your time zone? So I'm passing it off to you, because that's, that was a loaded set go for you.


Tyler  

You, you, you, you tossed one up for me to hit it out of the park? Because that's, that's exactly what we are suggesting is that when you're working across time zones, right, when you are working in a fully distributed organization, right, how do you work together? How do you stay aligned without it owning your calendar full of video conferences? Right. The way you do that is by optimizing for an audio first, asynchronous first communication style, right? We're very opinionated at YAC, which Allen was asking earlier. Please, please explain that the acronym because that's that has a connotation that maybe is an older phrase, you know, we once upon a time we were an acronym standing for for Yelling Across Cubicles, right. And so we were enabling things to be there. But how do you make sure that the meetings that you're having are recorded by default, right? Are able to be accessed at any time can produce outcomes and notes and and a transcription that that would be able to be used in a document or used in in some sort of, you know, deliverable following the meeting, right. How do you optimise for having an agenda? How do you optimise for having an outcome from a meeting rather than just being on a video conference? Because that's the default right now, now that we're not working in an office? Right? How do we do that? Well, we've very feel very strongly that you should use our product. But we also believe in the category broadly, right, that that asynchronous meetings, audio first, asynchronous meetings are the best way for you to maintain alignment on your own time. Right. We've talked, you know, our customers are coming to see us, because they know that we used to be all, you know, kind of, you know, PST, you know, your West Coast people, and now we've hired somebody in Switzerland, and how do we have almost zero overlap with that person? Right? I, in my previous job, I was a YAC customer and used it because the team that I lead spanned from Seattle to Melbourne, there, there was parts of our team that never worked at the same times. Right. So how do we make sure that we are able to communicate and stay aligned on things in a way that doesn't depend on a video conference? Right? How can we, you know, have that that first language, right, everyone's first language is the spoken word. Right? So how do we optimize for using that as our primary mode of of communication? Right? Well, let's, let's make that the default, let's make that the way we we start off with. Now, obviously, you can stretch out to a screenshare. And you can use the transcription to just put it into a document, right, you can kind of use your first draft is the thing that you set out loud? But then, you know, okay, going on from there, right? How do we, you know, you mentioned before, like, how do we do the culture thing? Well, if you make if you make your meetings about the like team building and bonding, like you and I, and Allen are all like, looking at each other through the screen, right? Our monkey brains are doing the primate thing. Right? Yeah. And so like, we're going to be able to have a friendship and, and a collegial, like, way of working together like like, you know, on LinkedIn, and on Twitter, and wherever else we happen to bump into each other, that's going to be different than what we were before. Right? Exactly. And, and so when you make those synchronous moments about the culture and about the bonding, right, and the connection, now there's times that you're when you're working in a document, or in a YAC meeting, right, now, you're going to be able to make that about the work instead of about staying connected, right. And so really, really trying to make synchronous time, remote teams forever, long before the pandemic, you know, would have a retreats where they came together, like, we are committed to doing the distributed work, right. But then we also wanted to be in person with one another because we understood the way that we think and behave as humans, right. We want to be able to build trust and build bonds in in real life. But then we also want to get away from each other to make it about the work. So make those synchronous moments, those in person moments about bonding about team building, and then make those times that you're apart and the times that you're asynchronous about the work.


Allen  

That's tremendous. I mean, because we've been getting a lot of feedback on the podcast, about the difficulties in building community, in a remote work environment. And you just touched upon something I hadn't even thought about is the synchronous time is really a great time to build community, spree decor, whatever you want to call it a group. But you're right, if if I'm working with you and your 12 time zones away, I don't want to be half asleep, when it's the only time we can work. I'd like the fact you're going to be able to compete, you know, I'm going to wake up in the morning and forget communication from you of when I did, you did yesterday, I'm doing this morning. And frankly, I'd say you're gonna make it better, because I'm not going to resent the time zones. I'm not going to resent that. Why are we in this situation? So, you know, let me just a quick thing is, what have you seen in the last 18 months, two years, perhaps on the building of community too, because before the pandemic, remote work was so frowned upon, it was really actually hard to build community. And now people like we, we now are realise this is the way we've got to do things. Let's still have that esprit de corps. But we have to do it differently. I love your perspective on that. Because I know you've talked to a lot of people and you've given it a lot of thought,


Tyler  

Well, I used to work in the most co located industry on Earth. Right? I was a school teacher. Right? And it was bells on the hour, every hour to tell this set of people to go to another mandatory meeting with another set of people that they did not choose to be with, right. There was a certain amount of I guess maybe I didn't realise it at the time. But there's a certain amount of trauma associated with that that, like, you're telling me that I have to sit next to this person that I don't know, and don't care to be around. Right. Okay. So I think that's one of the things that we need to kind of like, imagine for ourselves, right? When you're saying the esprit de corps is so important that we're going to require you to move your person, right from one place to another, right? For sometimes three hours a day or more, right into travel to this this place that like, we end up like on a lot of video conferences and doing a lot of emails, right. Like so much of the time that's there, like isn't even for the esprit de corps. Right. So to me that this is my absolute favourite phrase that I have repeated over and over from from Darren Murph is that remote work is a forcing function for intentionality. We don't do anything without purposeful decision making in a remote environment, you have to decide, right? And if you are rigid if you're choosing not to decide that is a decision of its own, right, whereas, whereas we can just pretend when we were all coming to the office that this was just the way things are? No, no, no, no, you have to decide, what are we doing right now? What are we doing right now we're talking about the future of work, we're talking and that's kind of like an umbrella term to kind of like just make it safe for all the people that are afraid of the future that like, these things are off in the future. But no, no, the future of work is now we are doing this thing now. We need to make a decision about what it is that we're doing. Because if we don't, our competitor is going to win, because they are operating in the future as we speak. So I think that's one of the things that we really need to embrace as we think about all of these different ideas. These are not things that are going to be for us in in 18 months or or five years. There are startups there are smaller companies, there are competitors that have made the decision to optimise for this version of work today. And if we this this update to digitizing your business, to enabling a remote first workforce is an existential threat to every business right because there there you can observe the the largest corporations on Earth have struggled to to roll out and then roll back and then roll out and then roll back different versions of their hybrid, you know, remote plans. And that is happening on on a you know, like a scaled down version, every industry on Earth, right? And we've got to make a decision. Are we going to support individuals being able to, you know, fit work around their lives instead of the other way around? Or are we going to just lose because those people don't look to us anymore at all?


Allen  

Well, I think you hit a possum that we've been hearing as a theme is this great resignation that's going on typically in the corporate area of companies that aren't giving people the flexibility, obviously leading to this great migration. And interestingly enough, a lot of the migration seems to be to be smaller companies, or individuals that are going to be working consulting roles where they got more flexibility and freedom, they might go to PEOs, or employee of records. And then you see come countries now doing the digital nomad visas, where in the past, if I had to go work overseas, for an extended period of time, I would need my corporation to support me on it, because they'd have to do the corporation thing. Now I can just go to a digital nomad country, and put my information in and be there for a year. So don't you get the feeling it's uncoupling people may be from the large corporations to to the things that you enjoy doing in a small entrepreneurial environment. And with your async communication in the small entrepreneurial environments, we tend to have fewer people at a corporation that might be more spread out. I mean, I think of Andrew and myself and Insured Nomads, we got folks in the Philippines and in the UK, and other locations. And there's not a lot of us. But we need we need to have this communication work. So I know it's a loaded question there. But what do you think about this transition from corporate to more, either smaller or individual, in this great migration, that that seems to be happening?


Tyler  

Well, I think that was a trend that was happening long before this moment in time, right? People were expecting and demanding more flexibility, like, much earlier than then, you know, okay, now we're gonna say, Okay, we're going back to the office, and either you're coming with us or not, and a whole bunch of people have said, you know, we're not. And I think one of the things that the pandemic has revealed to us is that there is a lot more uncertainty, that, that we did not recognise as an inherent part of our world. And I'm saying this broadly, not just health, but but also like, like employment situations, and all the rest of that. And we've come to accept that much more fully, in a much more mature kind of kind of mindset relative to work, right? No one is looking out for my career except for me. And you know, what, I'm going to make some decisions about that, that don't depend on my employer saying yes to or not. Right. And I think that that's really what happened to me, right, you know, February of 2019, I was finishing an educational leadership Master's, I was trying to network internally to like, be able to do the next thing inside of the, you know, the next step in the my progression as as an educator, and you know, basically, those opportunities were not available to me. So I said, Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna stop asking you for permission during the next thing. And I went and found the opportunity to work remotely, all by myself, I went from being a technology oriented teacher to being a teaching oriented technologist very quickly, right. And it was thanks to organizations like GitLab and We Work Remotely and YACand others that have, you know, demonstrated that this was something that was possible.


Andrew  

You know, the possibility, just the awakening to this possibility, is having a ripple effect across many different aspects of, of how we live life today. And so it's, you know, we've hit on some of those during this call this time together, and those who are listening or watching this, many from a distance, wondering if it's really going to take effect, but yet, for those who are immersed in it already, and some who've been in it for a period of time before the pandemic hit, actually. And that's us, as a company before the pandemic. We were globally distributed and remote pre pandemic. This isn't new to us, as Insured Nomads. And but yet, many are still on the sidelines, saying, What are they talking about an async. They're thinking, what's the difference in async? They're saying, you know, no, I can't do that slack is the way and when I type a Slack message, they better reply right then, because I want to know, and it's that it's a thing where I've got to tell people on our team even Hey, just because I sent sent that message doesn't mean you got to stop everything and reply, because years ago, I was I had that mentality when my boss was in Taiwan, and it was 2 in the morning for me in Northern California, and I got a message saying, Hey, do this. I misinterpreted as jump out of bed and do this right now. No, she wasn't thinking we were working. At the same time, she was async mindset. And we've there's so much shift in trust, that has to take place in a corporate environment that, you know, just because they didn't acknowledge it doesn't mean that it's not going to get seen and done when they're able to. And so the trust factor, can you dive into that? Because I think that's a major thing from work from anywhere work from home work async, what's your take on that, Tyler?


Tyler  

Well, you hit on it, right? It has to be something that is demonstrated, communicated and set as the organizational, departmental, divisional, whatever division, you know, a segment of the organization has been led by someone, that person has to set the norm has to communicate the norm explicitly. If that doesn't exist, there will be assumptions that are made that are harmful to individuals, right individuals will put it upon themselves to make decisions about what is supposed to and what is not supposed to happen. Unless you have declared it. These are our team communication norms. This is how we communicate. When we do these types of meetings, we do them here. When we do those types of meetings, we do them here. This is the expectation of your reply. Your participation is expected in these types of meetings, Your participation is invited in these types of meetings. These types of meetings, you this type of communication doesn't require your response, this type of communication does require your response, I will, every time that I expect you to have a an instant reply, that's gonna happen with this kind of tool, right versus the these are the the hierarchy of asynchronous work inside of our team. And I think it's one of those things that people have very little experience with on a personal level because of the office. Right? Only the people that have spent time inside of fully distributed organizations or multinational organisations like yourself, where you said, Hey, I had somebody that worked with me, from Asia, while I worked on the North American west coast. There's, there's these kinds of, you know, time differences, and they done lots of work with those types of people, whereas I had never done that. Right, you shared that story. And that's exactly what needs to be, you know, communicated. And, you know, I, I worked with direct reports that worked 12 hours ahead of me, during the day, we spent a sum total of 45-50 minutes a week together on a video conference. Right? Every other week. Right? And yeah, I'm not depending on on that person, to, to like, like, be communicating with me all the time to, for me to know that they're doing their job, right, you have to set the KPIs and the and the, the OKRs. And all whatever the hot acronym of the moment is, in evaluating people, you have to be able to say, Okay, this, this is where the work is being done. This is what is being measured, not FaceTime, or seat time, or any other version of time based, instead of being an outcome based sort of metrics, you have to pay attention to the things that matter. And that's, that's part of the forcing function of remote is to say, Stop depending on office time and and the coat hook accountability of like, Is my coat still on the on the hook? Yeah, right. You know, I heard a story one time of somebody making a relationship with the, the janitor, who would hang up his coat and turn on the light in in his office to make it appear as though that person was there before everyone else. Right.


Allen  

Amazing. No, it's and actually, to your point, is also a leadership shadow too, is, you know, as a leader in an organisation, if you say to somebody, you know, I want to talk to you on Monday, all week and you're talking on Friday, or you send a text, I want to talk to you on Monday, all week, and they're gonna think what did I do wrong? And if you're communicating well, you need to make it like, hey, I need to catch up to you on Monday because we got to worry about the rates on this particular case.


Tyler  

Use my schedule, send us your schedule, send, right yeah, you might have thought of it on Friday, but don't have the email appear in their inbox until Monday.


Allen  

Exactly, exactly. And this what I'm saying is that in that leadership shadow because it tends to be more of a hierarchial thing that the leader doesn't think that they've just ruined the person's weekend because they wonder about things. But this is that's a whole another podcast at a different time.


Andrew  

Yes.


Allen  

So yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Andrew, you want you? You've got our special Yes. For Tyler today 


Andrew  

I Do. I really wonder? You know, Tyler, this is a question we ask everybody that is on the new Nomad podcast. And that is if you could share with us one overlooked person, place, experience, even book and you can pick two if you want to, and we'll put the link in the, in the notes on our sites and everywhere, but a person, place, experience that's been overlooked that you think our listeners should know about. 


Tyler  

Okay, so I've got I've got two ends of the spectrum, right. One is is is a very well known thing. My my spouse and I are going to be celebrating 15 years of marriage with a, a sailing cruise off the French Riviera. So that's that's like obviously a place that people go to 


Allen  

very nice, very nice. 


Tyler  

But I want to share the inspiration for that trip as the west coast of Michigan. I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and was fortunate enough to grow up sailing with my grandparents who ended up retiring early thanks to a financial windfall that we don't need to go into but they they purchased a 43-foot endeavour catch centre cockpit mizzen mast, aft queen bed aft cabin queen bed in the aft cabin. It's slept 12 People summer vacations all growing up were spent with them in Montague Michigan, which there's there's beach towns all up and down the west coast of Michigan that are beautiful, amazing, quaint places to reside for the summer. So I want to invite all the nomads out there. Put West Michigan as as as a place to come visit. Grand Rapids is is Beer City USA. So if you are into craft beers, it's a fantastic like mecca of craft brewing. You've probably if you're ELS and just just gonna say bells and founders are the two names you probably already know. I'm going to say there's there's probably another three dozen that are worth visiting as well. But then also like beach towns like Saugatuck, Holland, Grand Haven Ludington, Pentwater, Leland, Traverse City, Pataski, and there's so many that you could come and visit. Imagine, like a freshwater version of the Black Sea. There you go. Right, for the Europeans out there. Um, are you I guess is that's kind of like, like, at the intersection of those places. But yes, a freshwater version of the Adriatic. Right. It's, it's, it's a beautiful, beautiful place that has, it has an awesome, special place in my heart of like, having grown up there. But for those of you that are watching visually, like I've got a whole bunch of sailing stuff in my Zoom background, because I really think that that is the the original remote workers, remote leaders were naval captains. Right. And so if you're thinking about, you know, asynchronous communication, clear scope of work, right? Dead reckoning, okay, that's, that's probably to salary word, figuring out where you are based upon what you can observe, right? Like, these are the things that are think things that are useful to to remote workers. And as we've, you know, go about this this profession together. Yeah, finding your metaphor for what it is that you know, is going to be the thing that unlocks what we're doing here together. I want to encourage everyone to do that.


Allen  

Fantastic. Well, Tyler, we appreciate your being our guest today. I do also want to highly endorse Grand Rapids as somebody who's going to presidential museums. The Presidential Museum for Gerald Ford has a great art museum there. And someday, when we catch up again, we can talk about that unique hamburger you have in Grand Rapids sets pumpernickel, cream cheese, olives, etc but will will Leave that side of things. Andrew, I learned a lot today as we wrap up, why don't you share what you learned?


Andrew  

Well, you know, it's not every day that someone focuses on the Great Lakes megalopolis. And that is, if you haven't heard that term, Google that the Great Lakes megalopolis that covers Canada and the US there. So I do hope it gets on the map for those location independent digital nomads that are that are sorting out where they're going to visit in the US for a six month stay. Those that are snowbirds, they're probably getting out of that area, and going south, but come springtime, get this on your map. This has been fun, because, you know, I'm such an advocate for freedom in communication, clear, healthy communication, and Tyler and the team at YAC are putting out a product that is vital for healthy communication in a distributed workforce. So really, it's it's been a pleasure to have him in today.


Allen  

So we'll give Tyler the last word Tyler, where can people find the Remote Show? And whether you're on LinkedIn, etc.


Tyler  

Yes, so the place to get to all of my things is tsell.link, TSELL.link. But yac.com yac.com theremoteshow.link will have all the different places to download, listen and subscribe. But then, of course, weworkremotely.com one more that I don't want to hype a little bit you we mentioned Head Of Remote. That is a long term career goal of mine. And so I have a resource page called HeadofRemote.xyz I'll be sure to add Allen and Andrew as you know, location independent company leaders on the site, but it's just a place for everyone to kind of be learning together of like, okay, hey, we're trying this new way of working kind of all of a sudden, with so many more people who can we listen to who has already lived through the rough patches, right. And that's what we're doing at YAC is we're trying to help you, you know, move asynchronously. And then we're, you know, the remote show has been, you know, in this space for a long time, even before I was hosting. And then also, you know, the heads of remote, broadly, right, have been showing us how to do this. Darren, the first but then others have followed along him to say, hey, we can do this. This is the way it's been done. And this is the way we're going to do it now based upon the learning that we've already been doing. So, of course, it was a pleasure today, Allen and Andrew to be learning out loud with you all and blessings, looking forward to hanging out and seeing each other around the internet as we go.


Allen  

So thanks again. And thank you all for listening to The New Nomad. We'll catch you down that road. Travel safe.