It is a great sight to see that countries have done and keep on doing things to accommodate every traveler, disabled or not but ravel can be pretty tricky for some non-disabled people, especially those with disabilities as there are many barriers to travel experienced by people with a disability. But would you let people (or curbs) tell you that you can’t do it? People like Renee Bruns, the person behind the travel blog Wheels Travels The World, will tell you that a wheelchair is not a hindrance to experiencing the world and its wonders.
Renee joins Andrew Jernigan and Allen Koski in an educating and inspiring episode of The New Nomad podcast. As all three have their own travel adventure stories, they shared their unique journey with the audience and discussed what societies and countries can do better when it comes to accommodating people with disabilities. As we continue to grow in terms of technology, we sometimes forget that kindness is the most important thing. So tune in to this episode and be inspired.
[3:25] Helping Others is in Every One of Us
[7:37] Disabled or able-bodied, preparation for traveling is the key
[12:51] People are all generally kind
[16:18] Travel Blogging: Triggering memories and emotions
[20:20] The importance of joining a community for travelers
[28:56] The world needs to care a lot more
GUEST BIO:
Renee is a former Fortune 500 executive who recently turned vagabond. She's currently on a professional career sabbatical and out to experience the world. She started using a wheelchair at the age of seven due to a genetic skeletal disorder and has traveled to over 28 countries and all 50 states in the United States of America on her wheels. From the Great Wall of China to the penguins at the South Pole - all the wonders make it to her list! She is the person behind the wheelstravelstheworld.com blog and her goal is to visit every UN member country – a lifelong dream finally coming true.
LINKS:
Wheels Travels The World: https://wheelstravelstheworld.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wheelstravels/?hl=en
Follow Insured Nomads at:
Instagram: @insurednomads
It is a great sight to see that countries have done and keep on doing things to accommodate every traveler, disabled or not but ravel can be pretty tricky for some non-disabled people, especially those with disabilities as there are many barriers to travel experienced by people with a disability. But would you let people (or curbs) tell you that you can’t do it? People like Renee Bruns, the person behind the travel blog Wheels Travels The World, will tell you that a wheelchair is not a hindrance to experiencing the world and its wonders.
Renee joins Andrew Jernigan and Allen Koski in an educating and inspiring episode of The New Nomad podcast. As all three have their own travel adventure stories, they shared their unique journey with the audience and discussed what societies and countries can do better when it comes to accommodating people with disabilities. As we continue to grow in terms of technology, we sometimes forget that kindness is the most important thing. So tune in to this episode and be inspired.
[3:25] Helping Others is in Every One of Us
[7:37] Disabled or able-bodied, preparation for traveling is the key
[12:51] People are all generally kind
[16:18] Travel Blogging: Triggering memories and emotions
[20:20] The importance of joining a community for travelers
[28:56] The world needs to care a lot more
GUEST BIO:
Renee is a former Fortune 500 executive who recently turned vagabond. She's currently on a professional career sabbatical and out to experience the world. She started using a wheelchair at the age of seven due to a genetic skeletal disorder and has traveled to over 28 countries and all 50 states in the United States of America on her wheels. From the Great Wall of China to the penguins at the South Pole - all the wonders make it to her list! She is the person behind the wheelstravelstheworld.com blog and her goal is to visit every UN member country – a lifelong dream finally coming true.
LINKS:
Wheels Travels The World: https://wheelstravelstheworld.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wheelstravels/?hl=en
Follow Insured Nomads at:
Instagram: @insurednomads
Allen
Welcome to The New Nomad podcast. I think we have a really interesting topic today one that we've not covered in our almost year plus inclusive travel, we have Renee Bruns with us today, we've got an amazing, amazing site, WheelsTravelTheWorld.com. We'll talk about that. And you know, as somebody who has traveled in my shoes in about 80 different countries, one of the things Andrew, I've noticed is in the United States, probably because of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which passed in 1990, there's cut outs on curbs, you know, we have elevators, we try to make things as accessible as possible. But I've traveled with, with my parents and others who have had some disabilities, and it's really hard to get around in some places, and even some of the airports. The amount of distance you have to cover to make a flight sometimes is quite expensive. I think we're gonna have a really interesting conversation with Renee, who has been in like almost half the countries in the world and get her perspective on situations. What's your thoughts?
Andrew
Yeah, it is great to have everybody join us this week. And really, thanks for thanks for being a fan of The New Nomad. You know, I'm looking forward to this because I've only had wheelchair life for a little bit. I broke both legs once and took quite a while to recover. And I can't imagine really doing that around the world, having that wheelchair with me around the world, just because it was quite an adjustment for me is just for such a short period of time. So I'm so glad that Renee is joining us today. Welcome, Renee.
Renee
Thank you both for having me. I am thrilled to be here and excited for the conversation.
Allen
So Rene, let's let's give our folks out there are some there some are either a reality check or confidence and thought. You've you've been to what 90 plus of the 195 countries in the world, you're continuing to travel today. I traveled once again, I was reading your blogs about you're in the Baltics and traveling about. Why don't you give us a status update if somebody hasn't traveled in the last few years, because pandemic or whatever. You know, what are you seeing out there? If you have somebody traveling with you, that you need to have more inclusive travel and you might have to provide a little extra support? Is it more about culture? Or is it more about infrastructure?
Renee
A great question. You know, I think at the front end, I you know, I took off on this journey about two months ago, and I was off on my own it was really the first time I was heading out into the world by myself. And I was I mean truly just terrified. I was what if there's a step I can't get up, you know, what if there's not a ramp or an aeroplane is hard to get onto? And I was worried about that infrastructure at the same time, I was also really worried about the people what if you know I'm a female, solo female disabled traveler, I am prying target from you know, the very outside. So I'm looking at this and I'm going into this adventure, I have all the safety tools, you know, I've learned all my punches and what I'm going to do if I'm attacked, and and then at the same time, how do I handle the infrastructure of using a wheelchair permanently? And it was it took me less than 48 hours, and I realized it's the people. So it's you approaching a curb, and I don't know how to get up and instantly, there's just people flocking to help me and just grabbing on to my wheelchair in places that, you know, it's like, how did you even know to grab there, but they somehow just figure it out. So I answered your question, Allen, definitely the culture for sure.
Allen
And if it's structure wise, structure wise, there aren't a lot of cutouts. I know the cobblestones are challenges, elevators, et cetera, et cetera. If somebody was traveling for the first time, the first with a wheelchair, are there particular countries that you might recommend to kind of start on or before you go to the more rugged areas?
Renee
Great question. Yeah, I wouldn't say the UK is wonderful. All of the Nordic countries are great. Norway, Denmark, Sweden, all of those up there. They're very modern, and they've put in some regulation. The southern Europe is a little more difficult. The cobblestone which is so beautiful, and I love it. It's such a bittersweet thing for me that I love seeing and I love being around it, but I feel so trapped. So I would say that's probably not your best bet. And then, you know, if you're really ready to venture outside of Europe, I think Southeast Asia, they just don't have that cobblestone it's a newer part of the world, if that makes any sense. It's not newer, but it's newer from an infrastructure standpoint. So I would say Southeast Asia and Asia in general is is really, really great.
Andrew
Well, what led you to do that? I know you're adventurous. You stepped out of her professional life After all these years building a strong career and, you know, being such an adventurous person, what's what's brought you to this point?
Renee
So, you know, it's a great question. I have a partner that I have been with for over nine years. And we always, we've always talked about let's take a sabbatical together, you know, we always thought it would come 2020 was going to be our year, we were both going to quit our jobs, and we were going to leave, we're going to travel the world and the pandemic came about. So everything got put on hold, as the pandemic came about, you know, and we went further into that, like so many people, I hate to say, I was part of The Great Resignation. But you know, here I am, I was, I realised, you know, the timing of Tony, my partner and my life aligning perfectly, so that we can both do this was the time was just ticking away, and it really didn't look like it was going to happen. He consistently told me, this is your dream, it's not mine, go do it. This is your time. So I just pulled the plug and then and it was extremely frightening, which you can read about in my blog, but I am so glad I did it. Getting through that fear, I think was a big piece of it. And just overcoming that fear of going out into a really strange place all by myself, I have to trust myself. And it was really, really rewarding.
Allen
Is there any any area that people can go to to get an idea before they arrive on how the support of handicapped individuals beyond obviously, you're, you've traveled to so many countries, I would just read your blog about the given location. But is there anything that you use to help you support you and give you kind of an understanding before you arrived? That somebody who says yes, I want to take a trip and I need some confidence and I need a little extra information before I go.
Renee
Yeah, that's a great question. I would I would caveat that with saying every disability is different. So it's, you know, I have a lot of people coming to me saying, what about this, and you know, everybody's disability is different. And mine's very visible, there are, you know, I want to make this open to all people with disabilities, there's a lot that are high anxiety or depression or you know, things that we can't see on the outside. And those are real too. For me, from a physical standpoint, for those that use wheelchairs, I follow a blogger, his name is Corey Lee, his website's CurbFreewithCorey.com. He has tremendous resources out there. I would also say just just Googling it, and digging into different locations. I've gone as far as looking at Google Maps to see the the landscape of you know, what is this? What is the street look like, so I can be prepared. But I think my biggest piece of advice would be you can prepare and prepare and prepare, you've got to trust the people. In every situation I've been in, somebody has stepped up to help me. So you've got to trust the people on this earth, that they'll, somebody will come and help me when you get stuck.
Allen
See, that's fantastic. And you know, you know, it kind of makes me really happy to hear. Because, you know, we hear so many stories about people not stepping up. And then what you're telling me, you know, as I've traveled, I've always felt that there's been just wonderful people, like you're just looking around, You look lost. And then somebody come over to you as a traveler and say, Can I help you, you know, I'm a local here, and that's what makes traveling great. As you as you traveled about not only the adventure, but what makes you really, really happy about the travels that you do. And how do you also pick your next location? Or is it more like a geographical move across the world?
Renee
So the number one thing that makes me happy is when I sit down with a local and I have a conversation, and I just hearing about their culture, and I at the root of all people that I've encountered, everybody has the same desires. You know, there's these huge language barriers in many cases, but it it continues to amaze me how at the core, all human beings just have this basic need for safety and love. And we're all very much the same. So that's my favorite thing. Deciding the next place is, it depends who's going to be with me. There are parts of the world. I went to the Middle East recently, and my family friends, everybody I knew said no, I don't want to go to the Middle East. Go ahead and go on your own. So I, I had a law where it was a few weeks on my own. So I just tackled that one on my own. I'm here with my my mother. Now in the Baltics, she wanted to see the Baltics. So we both met here. It really just depends. Some of its geographical, some of it is who I'm with and what do they want to say so.
Allen
It's interesting, you mentioned the Middle East, I very similar to you. I had a business trip to Jordan back in the day and said to some of my friends, would you like to come along and like they want to know part of that. And it was marvellous because it was Petra, and the Dead Sea and wonderful food and glorious people, and you know, it's sometimes it's those places that the people most fear, that are the biggest surprise on things. And of course, you mentioned the Baltics, which are just wonderful there too. And it comes down to the goodness of the people. So I commend you on that trip in the Middle East, because I had a very similar two-week deal. But, you know, so it has there been times that you've been like, kind of warned away from a place that has really surprised you, that you were like, Yeah, this, that. It turned out to be completely different. The guidebooks might be off, or something along those lines.
Renee
Yeah, absolutely. And I think the Middle East is probably that area. I went to Kuwait, which was a bit overwhelming. I came out of the airport, I wrote about this a little bit when I came out of the airport and just thought for the first time, oh, my God, I'm in over my head, everybody looks different. Nobody speaks my language, like, what do I do? And you know, you take a step back, and you realise, like, nobody's nobody's bothering me, nobody's hurting me. But ask them for help, they helped me and I, like you. And I really enjoyed my time in the Middle East and I would go back in a heartbeat.
Andrew
You know, I think as we listen to this, and we reflect, I think we all have our, our strengths. And some of our strengths to some look like weaknesses. And we all have our weaknesses, which also look like strengths to others, to where we need to have our eyes open to realize that those in some countries that look totally different than us, probably think, a lot like us. They probably have a lot more in common than we do, and are kinder than we would expect, at times, and I think it's a challenge for us to be kinder to those around us, those that may look like us, those that may look totally different from us. Because I, you know, having spent the majority of my time outside the US and in the African continent, and Brazil, I look very different from those. But inside, I feel more African or Latino. And most people looking at me wouldn't think that. And I think as I reflect on some of the things I've heard you say, and I'm a huge fan of you on Instagram, and I'm always just so inspired. So it's, I hear some of these things, you're sharing and thinking, oh, let's, let's do look for the commonalities and be kinder.
Renee
I love that, Andrew and I think that is one of my biggest takeaways from this trip, just just walking away from my entire life, really, and giving that all up to go do this. And the kindness that the world has. It's in all of us, we've all got it. And I think we just need to get better at practicing it and taking a step back to say, see, this person looks like they're struggling with the door, they've got a lot of groceries in their hands, or you know, those little things stick out. And so many times we pumped on those things, and I'm carrying them with me, I won't forget them. And you know, they've moved on, they don't think anything of it, because that's their culture. But we all can get better at that for sure.
Allen
Rene, we have a lot of listeners who are actually they traveled from overseas to the United States. And you have, obviously a great perspective on that. What would you share about that also, share it obviously a little bit if you're doing a compare and contrast of traveling, that you've seen and kind of the average or semi average country that you traveled to versus the United States and what we've done here and maybe what we could do better. But I'd love you to give people a little bit of thoughts of if you have a disability or coming to the United States. How do we do relative to others if people want to travel here, people want to travel here?
Renee
It's a really difficult question to answer and a unique one. You know, because we do have the ADA, we have the regulation, there's ramps and cut offs, and all the curbs and restrooms are in all the bathrooms, everything's accessible. Interestingly, because of that, you know, that all was put into place because of litigation and policies. But because of that, I think we've lost some of the kindness that we Andrew and I were just talking about, I think we've lost some of that in that Americans are less or less willing to lend a hand and say, Hey, let me push you up this ramp and they just assume the policies in place, we don't need your help. So you know, it's a catch 22 And if I you know, I'm looking at my life and saying which one I'd rather have. Would I rather have the regulation and the law, or would I rather have the kindness and of course I want both. That would be a win win. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's it's a difficult thing and I think we just only to look at folks that might need help up a ramp or into a door and say, Hey, how can I help you? Aside from the regulation in the wallets in place.
Allen
That's, that's what you just described is what I kind of felt was the issue because a lot of people kind of U.S. people. Well, we're very outgoing, standoffish when something happens, because everybody's so worried about the litigates nature of our country. But I also think it's just like he talked and people are very kind, in general, but you're right, a lot of times we let the rules take over on that. And one of the things I love about when, when you travel, and you do your blog, I've taken out the quick thing as I was reading that, do you go through the full day? And do you write down your thoughts kind of there? Or do you reflect on it, I would love to hear because your blogs are really excellent. And I love them, because I've been to some of the places and some of the things that you mentioned, were very much the experiences I had. But but share with others, because I know there's a lot of people who like to blog their trips to, and I think you do a wonderful job of it. On Wheels, travels the world, and maybe some hints on if you're trying to do that, whether it's for your family, or for a water a wider audience, a wider audience.
Renee
Yeah, I think for me, you know, there's all types of blogging, you can go out there and put, you know, top 10 things to see in in Tallinn, Estonia. And you know, you can do that too, what type of approach and mine is probably a bit more personal and more about my personal journey and just things that I'm seeing, I tend to when I'm out and about if something interesting happens, I just I have a notepad in my phone, I'll just make a quick note so that I don't forget about it. Pictures, of course, you can go back and look at pictures and that that triggers the memory. But my biggest piece of advice would be get it down on paper as soon as possible. The day start to muddle together and the city start to muddle together. So to take the time, even if it's 10 minutes at the end of the day, just to to journal it out. It doesn't need to be, you know, ready to publish, but to get your ideas and your feelings out there is really important.
Allen
Do you have a particular airline that you travel that you feel good about? Or I mean, how do you travel mostly by train, bus, planes, trains, and automobiles? what's your what's your thoughts on going inter-country on those countries,
Renee
all of the above, I've been on all of them, I would say my you know, I use Delta domestically and internationally, as much as I can get this within the world, there's not a single airline that's going to fly to all of the countries. So air tends to be the easiest for me, ironically. But trains and boats and buses, I've been on them all. So it really whatever is most economical, and I tried to keep the planet in mind as much as I can, too. So all of the above.
Allen
I saw in your latest blog that you actually took a bus across, you're going to take a train ticket trace the train took a bus, and it brought memories because I was in Saigon missed the train to Pnom Pen so we then took a bus. And it was one of the most unique experiences I've ever had in my life as every time the bus is passing somebody in the centre lane, you see traffic coming towards you. And you think you're in imminent disaster, and that traffic was so used to this type of driving, that pulls over and you go right down the middle. As you travel about if you had a few of those travel adventure stories, adventure stories.
Renee
Oh, for sure. For sure. I've had the most recent one that comes to mind. We had a taxi driver. And we were in San Marino, which is a little tiny country landlocked within Italy. But a driver who I'm quite confident was under the influence of something I'm not really sure what but was, you know, music was blaring loud, just going down the roads. And I'm thinking this is it. This is how I'm going to die here in this taxi in San Marino. And obviously, I'm here to tell the story. So we survived but you have those moments and you just thank everyone that you can when you get out of that car
Andrew
well, well, Renee, you we've come to the point in the episode where I love this question. It's one of the most fun and insightful questions I think. And that is if you could share with us, give us a little thought, an overlooked experience, place, and you could pick a couple if you want to but person or even book that you think our listeners should discover.
Renee
There are a ton of world travelers out there so it's hard for me to pick one person, I have a few that I follow and that I read about, I would encourage everyone to find something that touches their heart. And you know, all of your listeners aren't going to have a physical disability like mine. So you know, we've all got struggles. I know everybody does, we can't see them all. But find somebody that is going through something similar to you, and join a facebook group or find a group on Instagram, find some blogs, and the confidence that you get from hearing other people go through it, and having been through it will help to guide you forward. So it's hard to answer for me to say one person for me. Corey Lee, who I mentioned earlier, he is someone who has been very inspirational for me. Just with his his travels and everything he's done with his disability, he would be the person that I would recommend if you're looking for someone with a disability. What was the second part of your question? I think I missed it. I didn't answer it.
Andrew
Overlooked place if there was one with all these places, you've been an overlooked place. And that's a little more challenging, because, hey, if it's if it's something that everyone's going to it's no longer you know, it's it's known, because, hey, if it's if it's something that everyone's going to smell, you know, it's known,
Renee
Luang Prabang Laos.
Allen
So Rene, just a quick test to help out Andrews question is, is there an overlooked place that you would very much like to suggest?
Andrew
She's joining back in I guess, well,
Allen
so Renee, thank you for for sharing with us, a person that you listen to and rely on. For some information, would love to know about some of the places that you've traveled to? Do you have an overlooked place, or places that you would would share with others, given that you've been almost half the world and in some very unique places. I've been reading your blog posts on it, maybe we can compare notes as the conversation continues?
Renee
Yeah, definitely. So my, my heart belongs to Southeast Asia. I don't know what it is about Southeast Asia, but I just am drawn to it and will continue to go back. My favorite place in Southeast Asia is Luang Prabang, which is a city in Laos. So kind of small, nestled in the mountains. Not very big. But very, very nice people. The culture is amazing, the weather's great. So I would say that is my my number one go to place that I don't think many people have been to. Also in Southeast Asia is is Bali, my, my heart has a special place for Bali, I think mostly because it was the first place I went to on my own and really just kind of check that off and did some self discovery. So Bali was really special for me a little bit more common, you're gonna have a lot more tourists going there. So that was really neat place. And then back to what we talked about earlier, just the Middle East. I think there's so many undiscovered places in the Middle East and I just touched the surface. But I think there's a lot for people to understand and learn from those cultures that that probably create some conflict in the world and just taking that time to really understand it. Changes perspective.
Allen
Ready, I'm gonna zero in on another overlooked area that you traveled to that I've been to that I thought was amazing. I mean, you're one of the few people I've met, that have been to Kosovo, Albania, Montenegro, and Croatia, Aryan, especially in Montenegro, that amazing canyon that they have there. And, and then, of course, the history in Kosovo, still almost kind of a city partially under siege. I mean, it's, could you comment quickly on that, because I was, I was reading your I was blogs, I thought that it was really amazing that you got there because so few do and it's so amazing, to me, in my travels to me in my travels.
Renee
Yeah, you know, that's a great point. And being in a place where you have this group of people that truly believe they they belong to another country. And on the other side of an imaginary line. The people do consider them part of their country. So the Serbians consider them to be part of Serbia and the people that live in Kosovo. That's not my country. This is my country. I live in Kosovo. So a really unique thing to experience that and talk with the people there and just see how, how that evolution of declaring your independence and what that looks like, just from the outside, you know, and I've just touched on the surface summit, but really, really neat to see that and you don't get to see that in every every place that you visit. So good point. I like that one.
Andrew
Well, Renee, where can people find you people? To find you,
Renee
well, they can follow me along on wheelstravelstheworld.com. That is where I put my blogs, there is an audio version of the blogs, Wheels Travels, it's available on all of the popular podcast platforms. It's not a podcast, per se, but all of the audible stories are there. And then Instagram is wheels travels find me on Instagram, and I'm on Facebook, also very similar content that's on Instagram. So either one of those.
Allen
Fantastic, that's great. I'll also mention today well, we really focused on some of the physical disability issues. I know, we don't want to minimise people who travel with anxiety, etc. And that's, that's an area that we think is extremely important to help support people with. And I think one of the ways that we also support people that have great anxiety about traveling is information. And stories like yours, Renee, that gives people confidence that people will be there to support them, people are good, people are caring, and on that. But I know we didn't delve in that a lot. But we also recognize as a group of us here that that's a very important issue also, on travel. So I thank you today for talking, focusing, we focus more on the physical, given the nature of your disability, but on the other hand, I think that, you know, kind of looking at the big picture. I know Andrew, us as from an Insured Nomad's perspective, we have a lot of people who travel and they have a panic attack, great concern, etc. And, you know, you need, you know, some mental health support, or greater confidence that things will turn out okay. But with the conversation today, I just thought it was absolutely amazing, Andrew, I love her wheels travels, it's great to read. And you've traveled quite a bit yourself. I know you and I, on the sidebar, beforehand, want to have accessible travel for all. And I think there's great confidence in hearing about somebody who's gone to half the world and says it could happen. What's What's your thoughts on that Andrew is up into a great percentage of the world too. And maybe some governments can can support and do a little bit more like we've seen with the ADA in the United States but also on the other Yes, Americans takeaway from it. That let's let's if we see somebody struggling, we you know, that they get over a curb or something the be a little bit more expansive. I took some things away like that today.
Andrew
Yeah, you know, I'm, I'm coming in recording today from Brazil. And as those who are listening, no, I'm, I spent a lot of time in Brazil. I was in a laboratory this morning, actually. And, and there were lines for those. It's actually law here in Brazil, that if you are elderly, if you're pregnant, if you have disabilities, etc, you get preferential treatment, you get to the front of the line, or there's a cashier just for you. And it's just accepted. If someone comes in, you get you let them go to the front of the line. And that's been the way here in Brazil for ages. So maternity is seen as one of those preferential aspects and rightly so. But yet, in even with American Disability Act, that's not included. Maternity is sadly treated just the same, you can lose your job pretty quickly after giving birth. And it really brings it to the forefront that we as we talk about all this, we need to awaken the side of us that really doesn't care about whether or not someone who has multiple chemical sensitivity or has ADHD is a 40 year old, or their daughter or son has a mental health issue or takes medication they can't get in another country or they're worried about they want to take a vacation and not sure if something happens, are they going to be able to get that special injection or special treatment? And this I think we can all pause for a minute and say okay, care a lot more. And governments are made of people you and I to say let's get involved let's make a difference. Even if you're in in a country that has put things in place. Let's push it further. The world needs to care a lot more. And this is just one of those topics for me that I'm passionate about just because I you know I've faced many different things from an invisible illness myself to all kinds of different things in my lifetime. So I I'm one of those And I'm emotionally moved right now as I reflect on this episode. This is, this is real life. This isn't just another, another time to entertain each other with stories. We're facing life together, folks. So let's take this and do something great with what we've just heard.
Allen
Fantastic. excellent way to summarize Andrew and let's be a little kinder. So to our remote worker, audience or location, independent audience, digital nomad, audience and traveller audience, I think there's some great things to take away today. Once again, invite you to follow Renee I think wheels travel the world fantastic. But also, let's let's help others feel confident traveling no matter what the situation, because that's what we're here for. And we're looking forward to more people traveling in the future. So thank you for joining us in The New Nomad podcast. We'll talk to you again soon. Thanks again.