Does 1 Year of Nomad Life Equal to 5 Years of Settled Life? with Anna Maria Kochanska | TNN85

When choosing a destination as a digital nomad in the Balkans, it's important to consider factors such as cost of living, internet connectivity, local cuisine, and leisure activities that align with your interests. It can also be helpful to research whether there is already a strong community of digital nomads in the area, as this can provide support and make it easier to connect with others who are also living and working remotely.

In this episode of The New Nomad podcast, Anna Maria Kochanska joins Allen Koski and Chris Nam to discuss the beauty of the Balkan region and the benefits of the digital nomad lifestyle. They share their own experiences traveling and living as digital nomads, and emphasize the importance of helping others and using travel as a means of personal growth. Tune in to learn more about the unique insights and perspectives that can be gained through the digital nomad experience, and be inspired to travel and pay it forward.

[5:54] Know what you want when traveling

[10:29] Connect with the locals and get the full digital nomad experience

[15:19] Going through a bad breakup? Try traveling

[17:44] Make yourself happy by helping others

[21:04] Travel teaches you things that no classroom can

[24:47] Travel is much better if you feel welcome where you're going to

GUEST BIO:

Anna Maria Kochanska is a multilingual public speaker and Digital Nomadism and Remote Work consultant. She has been a digital Nomad since 2018 and Digital Nomad Ambassador. She helps brands and organizations with Digital Nomadism, Remote Workers' strategy, and the Future of Work. Her background is in the IT industry, working with big pharmaceutical companies and helping them with digital transformation.

Anna Maria is a self-taught polyglot (+7) and consults on cross-cultural competence & business communication.

LINKS:

Website: https://www.kochanska.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-maria-kochanska/?originalSubdomain=es


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Transcript

Allen

Welcome to the New Nomad Podcast, the podcast that supports digital workers, remote workers, digital nomads, folks that just interested in exploring the world. We have a great guest today. Anna Maria Kochanska's with us today. Somebody who's traveled about being in Balkans and Barcelona, and other locations that I know we'll get into today. Really excited to talk to her about how she consults and helps with people to live this lifestyle and have companies that have inquiries, and it's been a noted speaker at different presentations. You know, Chris, I'm gonna bring in my co-host today, Chris Nam. You know, Chris, one thing I've seen about digital nomads is there doesn't seem to be kind of an age difference in the sense that you and I are two completely different generations. But you know, my generation so well, it's more about requirement where people go out there near the end of their career, they want different food in different language. You know, quick thing when you when you look at folks, then you see some of these digital nomad communities. What what really sticks out to you, is the driving force. And then we'll bring Anna Maria in.

Chris

Yeah, for sure. Well, good to get to be here as a co host, but yeah, I mean, that being said, I feel like a lot of digital nomads these days are motivated by the idea behind seeing new things, experiencing new things and just getting out of their own culture. For me, I'm living outside of my home country of South Korea, I've lived in four different countries. reasoning behind that was my dad wanted something new. He was a surgeon in Korea, hated the life and so he wanted to pick up business, got into golf. So that's kind of the expat life, expatriate immigrant life. But same goes for digital nomads, a lot of people that I've been chatting with lately are saying, you know, they want to get out there, you know, boring life, whether it's an office life, whether it's school, whether it's after graduating to the world, before they get back into either a corporate world or just more school. So that is, you know, experiencing new things, eating new food for me, when I travel, I like to look at the food, I travel all of our I plan all of my travel around food. So that's something you know, worth thinking about. And, you know, it's just there's so many different things to going even just two hours down a car ride. Like there's it's a whole new world. So yeah, I think that's just the motivation factor.

Allen

tremendous, tremendous. And of course, we'll bring in Maria in it in certainly, a two hour car ride in the Balkans can get you to a completely different country, depending on the border crossing, but also, you've been somebody who's been been quite a speaker on future of work, ideal lifestyle. I'd love it if Anna Maria, if you could do a quick overview for your audience varieties of your travels. And what brings you today to this remote work lifestyle that you've lived in. And certainly, I've been following you on many of your conversations about the excitement in Mostar and Dubrovnik and other places in the Balkans. So we'd love quickly to share your story.

Maria

Sure, so how are y'all? Well, so I've been like a nomad. I think we can say since 2017, I started like working remotely like long before like in our COVID hate. I worked then with PHARMAC companies helping them with digital transformation, that was my background. But then eventually, with time, I also moved more into remote work and consulting about remote work and helping companies to adapt to remote work. And then as I was like traveling as a nomad myself, I also started to speak about remote work and digital nomadism. And then I was also contacted by a couple of organization that wanted to bring like, remote workers to their country. And they were, you know, like wondering, what can they do best, like how to adapt the strategy to make that happen. And that all came into place. Since like, I would say, maybe 2020, I actually spent considerable amount of time in Balkans in different countries, like by now I think I visited almost all Balkan countries. So that started like in COVID times there was just less restrictions and you could still travel as a nomad and have experiences even in that difficult period. And then like with that, of course, comes like better acknowledge of what you can actually find here, like how people live here. And for me, I realized that actually there are lots of opportunities here because those countries are like, very unknown. And they have really great potential and generally, I think like Balkans are underestimated like on the normal sense.

Allen

I mean, when I visited the Balkans and this was just before the pandemic. First off, the the quality of life was tremendous. The cost of living is, is low, and I didn't have any trouble finding Wi Fi, or people to speak and meet with them. When Chris talks about food, fantastic food. I also enjoy going to places that brew beer etc. There's no shortage of that, too. So what do you think is if you're looking and you're consulting with an organization, do you suggest to them first find a place that might have digital nomad visas and then look at it? Or do they mostly look at what's the quality of life first, and then we'll figure out, you know, how we can get people to work there. What's your your typical suggestions for folks, if I'm listening to his podcast, and I say, You know what, I do want to come work in the Balkans. But I don't know, where in the Balkans. And and how should I evaluate? Other than I would reach out to you for direction. But your thoughts?

Maria

Like individual people, individual numbers, right? Yeah, I think it's really first it comes like to knowing what we actually looking forward, because we always talk about this nomad destinations, like if everybody was the same, which is not really true. And I think that now especially after COVID, that this group of nomads and remote workers is growing so much, then also different subgroups of people started to appear, like different group of nomads, you know, and they have different needs. So I will start, like, from here, what we actually need, like, you know, like someone in the 20s, a single person, they may actually have different needs, that someone that has a family or even someone that's in the 40s and maybe have a couple, right? They the questions they ever make when they ask about destination are the same, like for instance, law, lots of single males they would ask me, like, how is the dating scene, right? And that seems to be a big factor when they take the decision if should go there somewhere or not. But maybe it's not something that if you travel with a you know, a family or with even with a group of friends, and you have that social parts already covered, then it's something you don't wonder about. 

Maria

So first thing for me is like you need to really to know what you're actually looking for, too. And I don't see that that awareness in a lot of nomads yet. Like usually the question is very generated. The question is, is that a good place for normads? So then my question would be for what kind of normals what actually is important to you, right? This is like, you should ask me first, and then I can guide you properly. Because for instance, when we talk about Balkans, so the kinds of normals that could, for instance, like Croatia is not the same kind of nomad that could like for instance, Albania, or Bosnia and Herzegovina, because we are for instance, in Bosnia, where I have been recently, Bosnia and Herzegovina, that's the destination for adventure sports and outdoor, right. So if someone appreciate that they have a great food, but that's not the place for vegetarians, for instance, right? We have to take all that into account. Like, if you really care about Mediterranean life, and you know, you really want to have beaches and sailing grand, then Croatia, right. But like it is now first, what actually matters to you apart of the goods, cost of life, because that's, that's probably it's quite good in all of those countries, maybe like Croatia being probably more westernized so with better infrastructure, but then also with higher costs than comparing to maybe older, less developed countries. So so there is that? And of course, yeah, of course, if you go like somewhere where already is a big group of nomads, then it's probably because there is already a big group of nomads, it's easier to maybe even without knowing what to look for, to maybe you can get some of your needs met, because already lots of people check that place. But in Balkans, to be honest, we don't really have yet like in any place, that big community, maybe with the exception of Bansko in Bulgaria, but some people don't even consider Bulgaria as Balkans because they concentrate more on this ex Yugoslavian countries when they talked about Balkans but in other countries, you would have like those smaller communities quite spread around the different countries and different cities. And then it's up to you to know what actually you you look for, for to be able to decide where you want to go.

Allen

It's interesting me when I traveled in the Balkans, even the big cities like well, like Sarajevo, or Dubrovnik seemed very easy to live in and get around. And then even the smaller cities like Mostar, so pretty and beautiful. I just felt that it really was a tremendous place and I could see somebody spending time there and really getting to know folks. Do you feel like the digital nomad community that visits those locations are, you know, regarded as something that their people are happy to see them there and are they making a positive impact on the local communities as they come in? Or how are they How are you perceived if you show up in one of those locations?

Maria

so you'll see a lot of digital nomads they are still very disconnected from any local communities if they are in any way connected at best is to other nomads that happened to be in the city if they managed to have common group. But from the locals and any kind of like local entrepreneurs, freelancers, usually it's kind of still like a ghetto of nomads that just hang out together in nice places. Because they also can afford usually better places and go to better restaurants. This is still a mainstream how it looks in most countries, not just in Balkans but almost everywhere by now. I started actually to organize like some events, you know, in my last destination to actually create like the bridge to connect actually nomads with locals because I think like when we are doing that, neither we are like really getting full benefits of traveling. Neither we are even allowing the locals to help us and have like the full experience. And of course, we are not giving anything back. So it's like a little bit like going for the barbecue for me and eating just veggies. Like that's not the plan, if you just go for the place, and hang out with other nomads, just like you are missing a big thing here. 

Maria

And, of course, like because we have very specific lifestyle, and many people many locals, they maybe don't understand the reasons and how it all works. So of course we need a group of people we can relate to and for sure, nomads can provide that. But I believe like the best groups like the that will brings you the most benefits is like mixed group. And then you will have like some locals and some nomads, and ideally they can hang out together and do things together. And then you will be able like to actually have some impact on them and they will be able to have some impact on you. And that's how I see travel and that's also what usually would maybe promote longer term stays because you become like more engaged. You feel like you are actually making some impact you your presence there matters and you connect with real people, you can make friends and then you can stay like few months, which is like now slowmad is right that becoming very popular. Or maybe you can come like next year and go to the same place and connect again. And they are like so many there are lots of places and initiatives like things that you could connect with locals through. But it comes to the fact that first you have to actually look for that. But this conflict from both places like when I talk with organization, I told them that that's something that from they can do from their side, right? Like you provide context for nomads, where they can connect with local people what they can do if they want you know, to, to have conversation, to make friends. And then from Nomad perspective, you have to be open to that, like you have to join those events if they are even there. Here for instance, in Mostar there is one great place which is like Mostar Rock School, and when you when you think about that, so what you can do is basically like join the community. If you play in any instrument, then you can play if you don't play you can learn but if you don't play and you don't want to learn, you can just join like jam sessions. You still will meet like you know, amazing people that are there that live there and you will meet them through music, which is always a great way to connect, right? So it doesn't have to be always like super serious that we must organize like big conference and we must talk like super serious stuff. We can also connect through for like, you know, this entertainment activities like music or dance or just organizing like a barbecue all together and trying local food. There are so many ways to do that. But I believe it's like first step is actually like you know, showing up and wanting to do that

Allen

alright, Chris, you're next.

Chris

I was gonna say that's, that's a really good way to put you know, the just the digital nomad life. I feel the need for just a quick question. I've chatted with a few digital nomads in the last two weeks, just to kind of, you know, get a sense of what they do and how we can work with them. But a lot of single people who you know, you just mentioned about five minutes ago. They're, they're wanting to few of them that I talked to, they had a bad breakup and they're wanting to leave their current situation and they're traveling abroad to become slowmads to just kind of experience the wild. Do you as somebody that's been in that field for a while. Do you see a lot of people who are trying to escape from reality is that a thing?

Maria

Yeah, so there is that perception that a lot of nomads, just like, you know, our commitment thoughts, and that's why they are traveling all the time. So they want to belong anywhere, you know, it's really hard to know, like, the real motives, like why inside out if someone just got a bad breakup, and they are, like, nomadic because of that, or maybe they just want to see more of the world. Or maybe they just like, you know, they are just trying and they don't even know what they are looking for. I don't think it's that important, like, Why do you even start you basically leaving your comfort zone, and you are like, allowing, you know, the life to unfold like and you are trying new experience. What is important for me is to be open, no matter the reason we start, like we have to be open for to what happens to new people, new cultures, especially like, you know, if you are traveling somewhere that culture is very different than you are used to. So you're not supposed to judge immediately, but like, try to understand like, okay, they are like that, but is there the reason they behave like that? Why is that, like, can I live with that, like, without that making me unhappy or not. But we were not supposed to judge them for like our position, I was like, This is not how we would do things in Poland or in Germany, right, because then you will not be happy, and you were like that. 

Maria

But and then again, like what I mentioned about, for instance, connecting with local, so if someone left the country, because they had like, whatever personnel problems, so usually, that's even more important that you focus on doing something good, something meaningful in your life, right. Because that's what's gonna help you to, you know, focus on something else and overcome that. And that could be for instance, a lot of people they find actually kind of like, you know, they start to see the world in a positive view when they help others, for instance. So we also started like initiative, for instance, in Cape Verde, with volunteering in local organization, because when you think that your own life is maybe not, you are not happy enough, even if that's just very subjective, right? Because I often think that lots of nomads has much more than any local person, like in terms of, you know, like education and economical means, and even the social support. But if in your perception you don't have enough, then actually giving back is that the ironic thing is that when you give back and volunteer and try to make a positive impact, what you get from those people is more than you give, that's something I would never expect. So even if someone just thinks about themselves, the best way to make yourself happy is to help others because you will get so much more than you give that eventually that will make you feel better.

Allen

That's tremendous. There's actually a lot of studies to indicate that. And you know, Anna Maria, the other thing about, you know, Chris and I travel. So what and you have people traveling sometimes to leave relationships or change relationships. The other thing is, there are people at the other end of the spectrum that reach a point in their life that said, you know, I've been at my desk for 35 years, I want to see the world. And I love something that you you wrote up that I totally agree with it. You know, like one year of nomad life could could equal like five years of sedentary life and with the things you learn and experience. And a lot of studies also seem to indicate that if you're adventurous, you get more out of this. And it sounds like you're an adventurous person, you've moved from different places, you meet adventurous people. But what I like about these communities is even some of the digital nomads even if they aren't the most adventurous people, they can meet people who will still support them and give them community so that's a big issue is community so I'd love your comment on whether it's you know, everybody's different. Somebody might be one year of nomad leave is five years of sedentary some people might be one in three, but you learned so many more things. So a quick question for you as you've traveled about on your own personal journey, what have you really learned about yourself? You know, in that, and it's a great example to others that every journey, no matter how adventurous we are, we learn something new and different.

Maria

Yeah, so you see, I think they actually free status of traveling because when I started with myself, even before I was a nomad, what I wanted is basically to see the world, like that all the beautiful places, meet people, try different foods, like go to amazing places, then surround the word. That's what I wanted, the more of that the better, right? Only the money and time was an issue. The second stage when I was actually realizing is not just about seeing places but everything that I learned in the process, right because that process happens even if you don't think about it like you traveling and you are becoming a different person you are learning difference. skills and they're like a lot of them, you know, like problem problem solving for once like flexibility. I think I've been faster thinking like adaptability, communication, like, you practice different languages. So it's just like so many personnal skills, I think that you learned that you realize you actually becoming a different person, you know, like, you are able to see different perspective much faster. A lot of nomads, they also become entrepreneurs, because they see like different things being implemented in different countries, they got lots of different ideas, they start to process them. And they got the outputs, right, that part that you can just collect them experiences, but you need to process them to make sense of them. So that part is very important, like you have to internalise what's actually learn. But that would be the second step when you actually it's traveling, that it's changing view, we are becoming different person. But that stage is still about you, right? It's just like you are becoming a better person, you are becoming a different person, you are learning things because the world is teaching you things. 

Maria

The first stage for me is when you are like okay, so I have got so much out of that, that I also want to give back, I want to have some impact. So for me, it also came at some point like okay, but now what I could, of course, visit more countries. And I could probably learn even more things, but what do I want to do with that, right? And then I realized but I can also give at least part of that to other people that contributed to my growth. I with a wealth, I know I ready, I can mentor other people, I can help them, I can have an impact. And that's especially applies to the destination less developed, you know, when we traveled to the countries that maybe even remote work is new for them. Maybe they don't even speak like, you know, English, maybe everything about technology is new for them. So you just by showing up, you were an excellent example, that all their life is possible, that they can do something else that they can have hope. And in that sense, like for me that journey, it came to the point that I want to have like real impact. I want to go somewhere and not only have fun, but also change at least the life of one person, maybe that's their show something to those people make like the connection, but when I'm gone, I want that someone thinks about what I have said, and maybe that inspires them, you know, to look for remote work too or to travel or maybe to open their own business and and then I think like it actually matters like because the remote work and nomadism a part of the fact that a lot of fun, it can be also a tool to change the whole world, I think, if we see that from that perspective.

Allen

So this is the time of the podcast we typically ask, and you've shared a couple of things with us. Would you like to share an overlooked person, place or experience with us? Because I know you've seen some really amazing places and you don't necessarily have to limit yourself to one.

Maria

Right? So look for a winter Cape Verde. I haven't been there the last winter I'm now going back again, that's really really great place. very affordable, very safe. You don't have winter, right. So it's basically like 10 different islands, but we have we are actually building a community on one of them. And on that island, which is in Mindelo that's actually a cultural capital. So there is a lot of amazing life music and dance culture. Even if it's a small place, there is a lot of that. And for summer, I generally thinks that Balkans is an amazing place to be, but like people can also look a I think Croatia is becoming now more now. So people like have that on the map. But they can look more than that. Like for instance Albania or Bosnia and Herzegovina or Montenegro are also amazing places for nomads for me because the weather matters a lot. I would probably be there between like spring and autumn. But that's again depends like what matters to people because for instance in Bosnia and Herzegovina is also great for sport for ski, right. So if someone is into that very affordable and they have really a lot like at least 20 places where you can ski. Then then coming in winter will be also a great place. But generally Balkans because the cost of life is very low. So you can play with geo arbitrage. The place is very safe. 

Maria

But the things that also matters a lot to me is because we are very welcome here. Like for me it matters a lot. I don't want to go to a country that right for instance, on the walls, nomads go to your country. I don't want that. So if you don't want to be there, I'm not going there, you know, I want to be in a place where they are happy that I came there because then like the treatment that you get from locals, the whole experience that you get is much better and at the locals like and that in both of those places like Cape Verde, but also like Balkan countries, they are very happy that you are actually there because it's not many of us there. And then like all your experience is completely different. Not only is not touristic, place is not overcrowded, you can get great deals, but also people would really like go out of the way to help you. So it's not just politeness, but they literally will stop doing whatever they were doing. So even, they can help you. Like for instance, if I go to I don't know, any Western country, and I'm a bit lost, and I asked about the direction, of course, people are gonna help me because that's how we are educated. We are polite, right? But that comes only out of politeness. Other than that, they don't really care. But if you go to Balknas and you ask about the direction, then they will now walk with you. Because God forbid, you got lost and you don't find your destination. So you see, like the difference in I think there is more our authenticity. And that's something that also matters for me a lot.

Chris

Yeah, that's awesome. Um, I mean, I would love to live that kind of digital nomad life soon. And what you are describing is just like, you know, wow, I want to go to these places, experienced these new people, new environments, new, you know, everything about travel, it just, you know, I've opened up a organization here while I where I am in Birmingham, Alabama, last year, because I went on a random trip to Hawaii by myself. I went to Atlanta, Georgia, just to meet some friends with an overnight bag with one pair of you know, socks and underwear and shirt and pants, bells it with my laptop. That night, I was talking to them. And they say yeah, I mean, Hawaii is cool. And that I said, Okay, so I booked the ticket that night. And then I flew over that the next morning, and I stayed there for a week. And it really just opened up my mind to everything new and I tried different things. I even changed my career paths. So yeah, I think definitely, you know, the digital nomad lifestyle. That's just something that everybody needs to experience, I think for, for my opinion, at least once in their lifetime. But yeah, I mean, all that being said, Anna Maria, where can we find you? Whether that's online presence, or offline in, you know, the next few months, where are you going to be? Where do you want to travel to?

Maria

So I'm actually going to Cape Verde, I will stay there in the winter. So like in person in case where you are invited. We're gonna organize like events there because we are growing the community together with Gonzalo Hall, which probably everybody knows, right, yeah. So I'm collaborating with him to grow the community there. And we also going to run like some volunteering projects there for people to be able to give back. So that's, that's like, at least until the spring, but like online, so everybody is welcome to connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook, Instagram, it's just like my name Anna Maria Kochanska, you can find me their profile is open. So I also share their like what we are doing, and generally also like tips, and my insights on nomadic life and remote work. And yeah, I'm always happy to connect with new and not so new nomads.

Allen

Thank you. And you know, we'll make sure folks that the show notes have the this information so you don't have to scribble furiously through the podcast, we'll make sure that we have Anna Maria's information for you. Really enlightening podcast today, and I'll mention this as a side item. You know, just before the pandemic I did have the distinct pleasure to go to Dubrovnik, Mostar, Sarajevo and on to Kosovo, through Albania, through one of the most wonderful canyons I've ever seen in my life. You know, for many of you listening to this podcast in the United States, we know the Grand Canyon. There's a tremendous canyon, in Montenegro that you drive through that is one of the wonders. So I would really suggest you getting in touch with Anna Maria, but also exploring that part of the world. The people were wonderful. And just a tremendous, tremendous experience on that. So as I tied together today's podcast, you know, what did I learn today? First off, there's a burgeoning opportunity for you out there, folks to go to places like Mostar whether it's slowmad travel, or moving through faster than that, or Putting your roots down and getting a digital nomad visa. The cost of living is tremendously low, the food is great, the people are very welcoming. And you have Annamaria as a resource, once again that we'll put in the show notes. So with that, those of us at the new Nomad podcast hope you travel safely and securely. We look forward to catching another episode and we thank Anna Maria for joining us today and Chris for co-hosting. Have a great travel ahead. Cheers