Allen
Welcome to The New Nomad. We have Nora Dunn with us today, aka the Professional Hobo. A remote work expert, a person has been in 60 plus countries has some really unique and fun stories today and also some great tips on travel finance, etc. But before we get to that, Andrew, how are you doing today? Where are you at? And how are things on this fine day?
Andrew
Things are very well, thank you. I just I've had a fun week, been active in the Alabama Germany partnership events of the week. And since we are active in both areas. So I'm in Birmingham, Alabama, as we're recording this. And where do we find you today, Alan?
Allen
Well, I'm back in the home office of Wilmington, Delaware. And as I reflect on our conversation today, and we talked to Nora I thought was very interesting. She has a obviously, I varied travel background. And there was one thing that stood out a kangaroo that fell in love and followed her around for months. And once again, inquiring minds want to know, but we'll get to that. But it started me thinking about my travels and some of the you know, animal stories we have. And I'll just mention to you, Andrew, I went to Egypt once and I was traveling with another person. And when we went to the pyramids, we were offered a donkey or a camel. And I quickly grabbed the donkey. And the person I was traveling with was morally indignant, like why wouldn't you take the camel? It's much higher, much more fun. And like when the camel gets up, you're going to have to hang on for dear life. And he's like, no, no, no, it's not that bad, though. Yeah, when the camera got up, we were probably like a very, maybe a couple degrees from the person going off the back of maybe a 1618 foot camel. And we might have evacuation. So I was just thinking that a lot of times the innocuous pets and animals we run across and I'm wondering if you've had a similar experience with with an animal out there as you've traveled to many countries?
Andrew
Well, you know, as Yeah, I hear that story. And I My mind goes to elephants. Because I've had the horror stories of dealing with people being trampled by an elephant on a weekend safari getaway, you know, they're working in, in a region where their prevalence and they get away and want to get that picture. And I thought to myself, as I was reflecting on it, I've actually chased an elephant wanting a better picture. That's like how stupid I was a time in life. That's 20 years ago now, you know, or my daughter who's now 16. She doesn't remember this. But she so critical of the fact that we wrote an elephants in Thailand. And I was chasing an elephant in Ghana, when we lived in Ghana. But in South Africa, I knew better than to chase it to get a better picture, because I had been reprimanded once by that warden. Yeah. But riding an elephant in Chiang Mai. If I were to do that, again, I wouldn't. That's just not cool the way the animals are treated. That's why my daughter is remissed about how I did that. But I was young. I was in my 20s. It's been 20 years ago, and or so and so that's that's one thing. You know, the way we treat animals there is crucial, but also the wildness that we do. And we're immature. Yeah, well,
Allen
yeah, with age comes wisdom. I mean, I've been Yellowstone and I've seen those people who want to pet a buffalo. And many of us say we probably want to move quickly because we don't necessarily want to be the first responder after they get gored. So we'll just we'll just leave that happy talk right there. Why don't we bring Nora into the conversation? Nora, welcome to The New Nomad. Where are you at today and would love to hear some more about the kangaroo store, among other things, as someone who's been to 60 Different countries in more and has a wonderful way, a fantastic YouTube on 12 years of travel. So welcome, Nora.
Nora
Well, thank you very much for having me. It is a pleasure to be here. I hail you today from Toronto, Canada, where I do have a home base. I was proverbially homeless for 12 full years. And then I got a home base in Toronto, for a variety of reasons I won't bore you with, which I've had for a few years was only ever of course intended to be a place to come and go from and mostly go then come but of course, the pandemic has necessitated I stay here a little bit longer than I ever anticipated. But that's okay. There are silver linings to every situation. You know, I'm going
Allen
but I was just gonna say it's funny Is it because somebody like you who's traveled as much as you haven't, and I know us. It's a weird feeling, isn't it not to be able to travel around and I know Europe and Canada. I mean, I was even supposed to come to the Canadian Grand Prix in my job couldn't you know obviously can't get across the border tells you feel like that energy ready to go or how do you feel about this?
Nora
You know, it's funny you should mention so coming out of the gate, I was pretty good. I was You know, I was in Greece when the pandemic got its legs, I came back early, preemptively I thought, but then a week later, boom, everything shut down. And, and I thought, oh, no, this is okay. You know, I'm so glad I have a home base. And you know what? Who knows? Maybe I'm ready for a new chapter in life, I don't know. But at the very least, you know, we'll watch the seasons go by, won't it be great. Um, I think I probably hit the wall a couple of months ago. Now, I'm just, I'm ready to go. I am waiting to be come fully vaccinated. And then I'm going to choose the countries that I visit carefully. Because of course, there are many countries in the world that are still struggling under various waves of the pandemic, so, but yeah, definitely, the idea of leaving the confines of the neighborhood I've been living in for the last 16 months, definitely feels like a new adventure. And I'm looking forward to it. I just hope I remember how to pack all my stuff. You know, like, it's, I feel like a newbie again.
Allen
It's, you know, it kind of brings up that interesting thing, because you obviously, yeah, as somebody who's been traveling too many spots. As you look at it, is it Europe? Now, I may hear from a lot of people that because Europe, they're they're opening the borders up earlier, probably for Canadians and Americans to seize your place? Or where would you were, you know, when you were kind of looking at things, where do you think is good place to go once the borders open up? You have somewhere in mind?
Nora
You know, I've always got a little hit list of places that I could visit. That said, interestingly, I have discovered that nine times out of 10, my destination will choose me instead of me choosing the destination. So it usually chooses me in the form of some interesting opportunity, whether it's to speak at a conference or whether it's to visit somebody, or to how said or you know, there's a variety of kind of interesting things that come my way. So to that end, actually, I should be speaking at a couple of conferences, this coming fall in the States, so the states is probably going to be my first port of call. But I do have a couple of places on my radar. And this is, you know, the pandemic is an ever changing situation. And I just don't want to find myself stuck abroad. So I'm going to be very careful about what international travel I choose. But hopefully sooner than later that will not be as much of a going concern.
Andrew
Yeah, so. So you're so well traveled. And you speak on this and other topics. What, you know, when you look back on the last season of your life, what is one of the most memorable destinations that you hit and stayed for stayed a little bit longer than you usually do? And why? Why is it so?
Nora
I noticed you very carefully did not ask me for my favourite country. And I appreciate that because of course, travel is so contextual. So my experience of a destination in your experience will be completely different things. And that's my favorite country might not be yours. But when you make when you gave me that criteria, probably the first place that stood out for me was Peru. I spent two years living in the Sacred Valley of Peru, Peru itself being a country of incredible contrast and diversity. I mean, you've got jungles and deserts and high altitude mountains and canyons, and I mean everything. But I was in the Sacred Valley, which was an incredibly special place and even more bizarre, because my travels have been bizarre from time to time. I was apprenticing with a shaman for those two years. So that added a whole new layer to my experience of Peru.
Allen
Well while we're on the subject of stories tell us the kangaroo story that one I know people are gonna want to hear but I know we gave a pretty good lead in on that too.
Andrew
Okay, you're the bear kangaroos in Peru No, no, no, no, no where were you tell us more.
Nora
So you know to continue the vein of conversation that we started off with it with in terms of interactions with animals and and now the the the lexicon of the socially responsible interaction with animals, which of course was not necessarily something that existed in times gone by. So when you go to Australia, of course, what do you want to do you want to hold a koala and pet a kangaroo. So I never had a chance to hold a koala but I did find myself volunteering and trade for free accommodation, a couple of hours northeast of Melbourne. And the property that I was volunteering on also served as an animal sanctuary. So I had a lot of interactions with wild animals or rehabilitated animals that I would not have normally had a chance to, to have not the least of which was Bracken, the kangaroo, who on my very first day I'm walking around on the property and suddenly I look behind me and there's this kangaroo behind me and he's and he's getting closer and closer and I'm like, Oh, I whip the camera out like this is this is great. Look at this kangaroo here. This is so great. And and I've noticed he's not moving. He's posing for my pictures which I found a little bizarre, but I didn't want to get too close because I'm like this is a wild kangaroo. You know who knows what they could do. Later that night, I'm making dinner and the kitchen door is glass and I noticed there's a kangaroo with its paws up on the glass and its nose pressed to the glass looking at me, and I'm like, I don't know if this is aggression or if this is curiosity, but I call up the the homeowners who were in another house down the way. And I said, I'm slightly aggressive looking kangaroo with his nose pressed to my door, should I be worried? They said, Oh, no, that's Bracken. We rescue Bracken. As an adolescent, he was raised as a, you know, he was raised by some family who found him on the side of the road. But then when he became an adolescent, he became too unwieldy. So the sanctuary that I was at, to come in and rehabilitated into the wild, but he's still like to come back for visits. Well, so began a six month love affair with Bracken, or Bracken with me, actually, probably more appropriately. He slept on my doorstep every day. As soon as I left, he followed me everywhere I went. And, I mean, it was an incredible experience. All I did, I didn't feed him obviously didn't, you know, encourage it, but he literally followed me around every day for six months, he would not leave me alone. And it was, I mean, it was affectionate and beautiful, but it was a little bit creepy as well, because he was an adolescent kangaroo. And his intentions, were maybe not entirely pure. So I have to be careful about maintaining a certain distance from him. Should I find myself in the line of fire, shall we say?
Allen
Yep. Oh, my God, well, hey, listen, you know, maybe, maybe Bracken was a soul from an earlier life, you know, may have been something quite different, you know, knows the greater degree.
Nora
Maybe We're soulmates in another lifetime.
Allen
It's just a wild story. That's awesome.
Andrew
That took me that took me back to Ghana. I was going from country to country thinking of animals and experiences. And suddenly, this flash came to me that it wasn't a big animal, but it was I was picking up right after we moved into the village life in Ghana. And I picked up in a sink that was upside down in front of the house that we were getting ready to move into was the house that I had no, no connection to a borehole or well, and it was it was quite primitive. There was an old sink upside down, I picked it up and underneath it were two scorpions that were much larger than crawfish. Smaller than a lobster much I mean, larger, larger than a king prawn, you know, those really huge shrimp. There were these scorpions that were just I didn't know they even existed that size. But with a ferocious bite, you know, luckily, I didn't get bit even though I stuck my hands under this big sink and this porcelain sink and lifted it up. But the things you experience when you're outside your comfort zone, when you're when you're in these cross cultural environments, just and they mark you for life. I mean, even the sweet ones like a loving kangaroo, or a ferocious, you know, a camel that could throw you, a scorpion that can you know, the mambas that would be in our trees that after a bite, you could be dead in 30 minutes if you didn't have anti venom, you know, then that was the life at the time that that was quite thrilling. I missed that adventure. I missed the near death experiences I had..
Allen
you know, something Andrew, I just want to say this and this is for our audience. I like Nora's story a lot better than yours. Yours is grim and scary.
Andrew
Yeah, let's go back.
Allen
Can we go back to Nora, I want to go into a safe. I want to go to a safe place. You know, if the scorpions followed you around for six months, maybe there's a message there. But I do I do think one thing that's great, nor what I was, you know, your website of The Professional Hobo is you have a great commentary about your travels have gone from the sublime to the terrifying and, and I think we may have started with the sublime. Maybe we can transition into start down that road a little bit. Can you give us a little bit of that continuum, and how to protect yourself because obviously you're you're you're smiling in good form, but I know you had a couple of really unique experiences, scary experiences along the way.
Nora
I did indeed. In my 12 years of full time travel, I survived three natural disasters, I had three tropical diseases, I was robbed twice, I got into one near fatal accident and I like to say I've survived more breakups than I care to admit to. And that's that's the you know, the the downsides and a lot of that stuff is also life. You know, life happens while you're busy making plans life happens while you're living on the road. And it's hard to differentiate what is your life happening to you and what is a travel experience happening to you. I guess the tropical diseases, obviously, were fairly location-dependent, in terms of you understand many tropical diseases in Canada to worry about natural disasters for that matter. So I guess I put myself in the way of harm a few times.
Nora
I think after, after my second natural disaster, I was telling some friends of mine, I'm coming to your country next. And they said, maybe not, can you just not? I said, What do you mean, basically, that these things follow you around, we don't want that around. But in every case, I was actually quite instrumental in the relief efforts. And that gave me a real sense of purpose in the ability to affect great changes. You know, growing up in Canada, I never found myself near to geographically near to really significant events that were dramatically changing people's lives and not for the better. So when I found myself in the face, and in some cases in the middle of the action of one of these things, the my, you know, my inner rotarian came out and I did what I could to help people. And that was the end of itself, it was a very interesting cultural experience.
Allen
It's very, and it's so rewarding. I mean, one of the more rewarding experience of my life is went to Cambodia to build houses, you know, and you and you just feel good, you feel like you're doing something and, and maybe even developing that good karma that passes on with folks. So 12 years and and I know you have a background of a certified financial planner, and I know a lot of people that listen to the podcast, like, how can I make my money last I'll could I be on the road is like, I take it, you might have some personal finance tips that you would share with folks. And certainly, you know, maybe on the website, too, folks can learn more. How about a few tips?
Nora
Sure, certainly the first tip, which was something that I discovered fairly early on, in my travels, when I was tracking all of my expenses was I discovered, much to my own surprise that the cost of traveling full time was actually significantly less than it ever cost me to live in one place. Now, that comes with a few caveats in that I employed some really interesting strategies I saved over $100,000, getting free accommodation around the world, on and off. And there were five different ways to do that. You can do it with volunteering, you can do with house sitting, you can live on boats, you can do hospitality exchanges, and you can do home exchanges. I wrote a book on it, of course. But so that was a way for me to really save a significant amount of money. And before anybody decides that I was living in a cardboard box on the side of the road, I will tell you that I actually was enjoying forms of accommodation that were really more luxurious and I might even have been able to afford. And I guess the other caveat with me saying that the cost of traveling full time is less than you ever spend to live in one place, is you could also spend a lot more money on a travel lifestyle, I mean, really, the sky's the limit for how much you spend.
Nora
But I think the biggest shift for people who get into long term travel, especially if they're working remotely concurrently, is the realize that it's not a vacation, in that when you go on vacation, you fly somewhere, you're staying in a hotel every day, you're doing activities every day, you're eating every out every night, that's going to be expensive. So yeah, if you try to extrapolate a week long vacation into a year, you're going to spend a ton of money. But the reality is you're getting longer term accommodation, you're working along the way, you're not doing as many activities, you're often cooking, and really just experiencing what it is to live at the destination rather than merely and solely be a tourist there. So the first thing, the biggest tip is it will probably cost you less than you may think. And on my website, I actually demonstrate with income and expense reports for 10 years, I published these reports to demonstrate and prove that full time travel can be financially sustainable.
Andrew
So this was not a flip the switch overnight journey for you. You were strategic, it seems. And did some study are okay. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you learned some lessons along the way. So that I imagine you wouldn't tell someone just do it and learn through the mistakes you make? No.
Nora
no, in fact, actually, I tell people not to do that, because that's what I did. So you can definitely apply a lot more of a science to redesigning your life in this way. Then it I mean, the resources, the infrastructure, none of that was available in 2006 When I got started, so I felt like it was the only person to do it. And I hit every bump on the learning curve. So now I try to make sure other people don't have to have that experience.
Allen
I mean, it's interesting, we had a guest What's that they're very simple tip this is for for guys, is just keep your wallet in the front pocket, you know, I mean, it's like yeah, it's pretty simple, right? It's, you know, we can do all these complex things, but there's some of the simple things and some of the packing tips on that and I think that you shared much of that with the you have a couple Great travel tips for folks that you'd love to share.
Nora
To get to I have to narrow it down to a couple I mean, geez,
Allen
you can go on
Andrew
No, your top 10. Go for it!
Nora
How much time do you have? Yes. Um, well, so many so many, I mean, really some of the most amazing and integrative cultural experiences that I had on the road along the way, were actually through these free accommodation gigs that I had. But I'll highlight it with just one experience, which I thought was really cool, which was in Spain, there was a program called Voluntown. And what this was, is a program that was ultimately funded by employers of Spanish people, they would send them to these retreats, where they would be matched up with an equal number of English speakers from around the world. So I, as an English speaker, had all of my expenses, covered meals, accommodation and everything. And then we spent a week together, basically just talking, just conversing. And of course, at the end of the retreat, the idea is their English, their conversational English would have improved dramatically.
Nora
But in two short weeks of doing this program, I met more people throughout Spain and all of Europe, that I had places to stay for the next five months, I made these amazing connections. And that's not something that I would have been able to make, I would not have met those people. Had I just been staying at hotels and staying firmly on the tourist path. To that end, you don't even have to do a program like that. I mean, I generally say if you want to meet and mix and mingle with people that you wouldn't normally otherwise get a chance to meet your special interest groups. You know, like I was a Rotarian, and a Toastmaster. So I would attend those meetings around the world and it would be welcomed as a member, an international member with open arms, and I would meet all these amazing people who would often say, Oh, if you checked this part out, Oh, listen, are you free for lunch? Tomorrow? I'd love to take you to this place. Oh, come stay with us. And and I would have a lot of make these amazing friendships along the way. So even if you're not a Rotarian, let's say you like, I don't know, rock climbing. So find the meetup group for rock climbers anonymous.
Andrew
Yes, yes. Like, um, Gonzalo Hall. Some of you may know that name. He's, he's one that is, is a driver in pairing governments with attracting the remote worker, the digital nomad. One thing that he looks for, when he determines where he's going to go is to make sure there is a volleyball, and CrossFit scene, because those are two things he's involved in. So before he goes, he makes sure that he can continue his hobbies, his sports, before he goes there. And that's in tune with, with what you've said, just to take it into someone else's frameset it may be their favorite sport, it may be their other hobby of, okay, can I find the birdwatchers group? Because I really want to learn about the birds in blank city, or blank region. But okay, you hit a lot of different places, and I doubt you were birdwatching. But what is one of the most overlooked places, you could throw in a person or an experience if you'd rather, but an overlooked thing that you think that our listeners should know about from your travels?
Nora
I'm stumped. Because, you know, there's a there's a misnomer about off the beaten path. You know, like, there's always this idea, I want to be a traveler, not a tourist, and I want to get off the beaten path. And the reality is, as soon as someone talks about something, it's no longer off the beaten path. So as soon as I mentioned an experience that is overlooked, or often, it's it ceases to be so not to say that I
Andrew
So you want to keep it a secret?
Nora
No, and it's not that any of these things are trade secrets. But also I think that and maybe I'm honing in a little too much on the off the beaten path concept. It's also not easy, either, like there's a reason the tourist trail exists. First of all, it usually is because there's some really interesting things to see and do. That's why they became tourist activities. So I actually tend to lean into to some extent anyway, I will lean into being a tourist at a destination at least as a way to understand the layout of a place to get a basic understanding of how the place works, what the mentality is, and then I dive in. And where I dive depends entirely on the destination itself, but I will specifically share one adventure with you. That is on my bucket list. I haven't done it. It's overlooked because it is brand new. It's in Slovenia. It's a 17-day thru hike. It goes from town to town so you don't have to hike. It's called the Julianna trail goes through the mountains of Slovenia. I am stoked to do that to do this. This is one of the things that is tops on my list for when it would be appropriate to head out there. And it is completely overlooked because it's only opened last year. So if you want to be one of the first on the off the beaten path, then the Juliana trail should be on your list
Andrew
okay that I want that since my wife's name is Juliana Juliana trail should be one we walk together.
Nora
It's so poetic.
Andrew
In many ways it is we should take that walk.
Allen
I have a tear in my eye that we are Giuliana trail. That was almost a set of neurons when when we
Andrew
was I've almost got real tears flowing here. I'm such a romantic. But Nora, it was great to have you here today with us. It's been fun. It's been educational. And where can people find that site you've referenced? Where can people find you on social media? Where can people book you to come speak at their conference? Because I know that you're you really for key notes, it's it's one of those to where you're sought after people need to fly you in whether it's to the corporate scene, as they prepare for the work from anywhere movement, all the way to the you know, these remote conferences. You're one of those sought after people they should pay to have you there. So where can they get in touch?
Nora
I need to put that on my YouTube channel. Can you send me that clip right there? Because that's great. You can just do all the my marketing for me just say that preface every conversation.
Allen
He's fantastic.
Andrew
Thank you, thank you, thank you. But seriously, where
Nora
how can they reach my my online home is TheProfessionalHobo.com. And from there, you can get pretty much everywhere else, which includes my YouTube channel where I have an interview series. But you can certainly search Nora Dunn on YouTube and find me just as quickly and all of my social channels and everything, just head to TheProfessionalHobo.com first and and dive down the rabbit hole and see where you end up.
Allen
Fantastic. Well, Nora, thank you for joining us today. You've been as interesting as the Nora Dunn that used to be on Saturday Night Live even more entertaining. Actually. I'm sure you've heard not. You've heard that before. But we really appreciate this. I'm sure we'll have you back again. Andrew, fantastic conversation today. share with me what you learned other than the Juliana Trail, which I saw you light up? Ah,
Andrew
yes, yes, yes, absolutely. One of the things that I wish we had had a bit more time on but you know, I think in six months, we're going to have Nora back home and hit some other topics. But some of that is a strategy that I know she's developed over time that I'd love to deal, to dive into a little bit deeper on it does take learning from other people's experiences to do this life well, whether it's subject matter experts from your region, dealing with your own national taxes, or how retirement pension and life insurance works in your country, because I know we have people listening from all over the world and it's different in every environment. But learning from other people's experiences is the thing that stood out to me as I was listening to Nora. We must be active students.
Allen
You know, what I learned is and I know for the audience, this is gonna be great is, you know, I hear a lot of people say it's very, in their mind very expensive and difficult to have this lifestyle and some of the tips you provided on you know, volunteering, etc. That takes care of much of the housing component of things, you know, if you want to investigate, you can live this lifestyle. But I also have to commend Nora for you know, the adventurousness of 60 countries. And when I watched the 12 years of travel, that diversity of places, you know, the hiking up to the mountains, etc. You know, it takes a lot of get up and go, and I think a lot of people post pandemic, are really hoping to live that lifestyle. And maybe the last thing I'll leave is I really enjoy her animal stories more than yours Andrew. You know, I love you dearly. But I don't want to hear about Mambas and scorpions. I'd rather hear about nice kangaroos and koalas.
Andrew
Fine! Next time I'll talk about holding the lion cub. And how cute and I'll do the cute things.
Allen
that that's that's marvelous. I'll take that any time. So just want to remind our audience the new nomads not just podcast, it's a community of people ideas and spirit helping you take advantage of that location independent lifestyle. We wish you the best travels we hope to hear from you soon. Stay well and travel well. Cheers.