Ombudsperson for International Children with Expat Valley: Matthijs and Karlijn | TNN36

The sense of belonging is not only a central basic need for our welfare, but it also multi-dimensionally affects our resources to act and perform. The positive identity which is developed through early relationships is the result of children feeling that they are liked, recognized, and accepted for who they are and what they are – both for their unique identity and for their status as a member of a group. This is the foundation of Expat Valley, the world’s first ombudsman for international children.

The Founders of Expat Valley, Karlijn Jacobs and Matthijs de Rave,  join our resident nomads, Andrew Jernigan and Allen Koski in a truly interesting episode of The New Nomad this week. They talked about why we should always consider the impact of our decisions on our children, especially when traveling or uprooting ourselves from a place. This conversation between our 4 experienced travelers shone a light on a topic that was rarely discussed and should be delved into more. You wouldn’t want to miss out on all the tips and highlights of this episode so watch it and take some valuable time to really listen. If you have children, have them listen to this too.

[5:05] Children's impact on travel and business

[9:42] Think ahead, think about the kids

[18:38] Children have a voice too

[23:59] Relationships are a part of our identity

[27:36] There is nothing more important to a child than quality time

[31:47] Stay close to your heart

GUEST BIO:

From being a therapist to leading positions in a number of great organizations, Karlijn Jacobs, Co-founder and Managing Director of Expat Valley, Ombudsman for International Children had the chance to explore what she loves doing most while working with amazing people in an international context. Putting others, especially children, in a position to thrive has been a goal of her that she continues to pursue in the adventure she started with Expat Valley.

Sometimes you just know when you've found your place in the world, as did Matthijs de Rave, Co-founder & Creative Director of Expat Valley, Ombudsman for International Children. He finds it rewarding to build a purpose-driven business and to care for 40 million children that are growing up outside of the country they were born in. He and everyone on Expat Valley believe that international migration should be an enriching experience that allows children to thrive.


Karlijn Jacobs Links:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jacobskarlijn
Website: expatvalley.com

Matthijs de Rave Links:
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/matthijs-de-rave-55495a10
Website: expatvalley.com


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Instagram: @insurednomads

www.insurednomads.com

Transcript

Allen  

Welcome to The New Nomad Podcast. Today we have our friends from Expat Valley joining us, we're gonna have a very deep conversation on children, protecting children, supporting children, different education systems, different environments that work for them. I think it's gonna be really an interesting conversation and, and I'm gonna bring in my co host, Andrew Jernigan, who, you know, you've you've had, you've moved around the world with your children. And it's, it's, you know, quite an interesting experience. And we've had some conversations on this podcast about Third Culture kids. As we debark on this conversation today. It's, it's the most important asset that we have is our family and our children. And protecting them is something that I see from time to time from our remote worker community that comes second after Hey, I've got this great opportunity or I need to go to this great place and and they need to think about some things in advance.

Karlijn 

Yeah, and and you know, as you as you say, that Allen and hello, everyone, thanks for joining in again, this week, I'm, I am a little bit triggered, because as a young, married, quite naive couple, before kids, we thought, Oh, we're gonna raise the kids around the world and it's going to be the best for them, it's going to be the best experience. They're going to know foods, they're going to know cultural things, they're going to, they're going to be at so much of an advantage over everyone else. And it was cross. It's a cross cultural marriage. My wife is from Brazil. So my kids are dual passport. My third one was born in Ghana. And you know, we didn't think about sure a friend of ours gave us a book called Third Culture, kids. And we read that before having kids gave it to my parents, so they could realise what they're going to lose, having kids growing up away from them, but we didn't realise any of the negative effects. We only thought oh, the grass is greener on the other side of that fence. So this is this is a great episode today to have the folks from Expat Valley on. And this is I'm really looking forward to this, because I'm going to learn a few things I believe.

Allen  

Well, you know, Andrew, your experience was slightly different than mine, and that you were actually moving and living in different places. Mine was more along the lines of, I'm always on the road, always travelling. And and then what do you miss there when you come back? And I think we're gonna have some great conversations about I mean Expat Valley has a really unique kit, trip kid and first aid kit, which will differentiate but I just think about the the effects of being gone is much as I was, but also, though, that we did try to bring them along on many different vacations or trips, and that really did raise their understanding of the world and their horizon. So to this day, I there's some blessings and there's a few curses out there. And we'll try to focus on this podcast will try to keep you out of the curses and get you into the blessings. So why don't we bring in our friends from Expat Valley, Matthijs and Karlijn will join us in I would love to ask Matthijs, you and I worked together in the past, we both been our paths crossed much earlier in our lives, would love you to do a quick introduction of Expat Valley in and how you made the transition. From frankly, you know, being more of a corporate person to one that's a little less corporate and certainly focused on children's health and welfare. Love to hear you both of your stories.

Matthijs  

Yeah, thanks. First of all, for having us today. We're also very excited to speak to you guys and spread the word about what, what mission we're on. So we're extrafine, were the ombudsman for international children. And you know, just in a few sentences, we really believe that international migration should be an enriching experience for children. And we see that there's a lot of things we still have to do and need to do in order to get them in a position to thrive, basically. So that sort of answers the quick introduction, and we'll talk a little bit more about Expat Valley very later on. But the other part of it is, to your point, you know, our paths crossed in the past. I think for me, that was sort of that planted the seed for the idea of Expat Valley because, you know, working with a lot of employers and seeing the importance of employees and being on the sort of the provider side, you sort of see that a lot of focus is goes to the employer like you know, keep your employees He's healthy, keep them safe. You do see some initiatives when it comes to, you know, the spouse and partners. But when it really comes to children, it's a completely overlooked part of the business. Whilst actually, if you turn it around, children can actually have a very positive impact on you as an employee, but especially on you as a business. So that's sort of what got me to a point where I was like, I was also reading, writing children's books when I was sort of, for my 20 year old or something. And so I always had the imagination of combining those two worlds together, because I love sort of the nomadic experience and being out there in the world and speaking to people with different worldviews. But at the same time, I also felt like, you know, a bit of creativity and innovation conquered in the space of supporting children with their well being

Allen  

it well into that end, you know, you you mentioned, you know, kind of leaving that space, I was thinking in our old world, you're right, the question never came up, other than, hey, there's an international school there. But, you know, as we're putting together health care plans, and, and supporting players, there was never the conversation of what was best for the children was their mental health services for them, etc. And also, not a lot of, I can describe it, like maybe health in support of the parents of what they should do that's best for the children. So I'd love both of you to comment a bit on you know, some of the the the tips and ideas that you have for folks, and I really like what you did on your trip kid and first aid kid, and maybe go into a little detail on on what you do there at Expat Valley for those initiatives.

Matthijs  

Yeah, I think, you know, when you speak to, you know, in my case, I started a bit with the, on the employment side, just to sort of investigate what's already out there that I think there's a lot of good stuff going out there. And, you know, employers, overall spend a lot of money on children, you know, if you look at, you know, the cost for International School, cultural trainings, you know, people usually get a nice house, which is obviously also changing a lot in the whole, you know, in the whole world, in terms of benefits, and they're becoming a little bit more scarce, but at the same time, they do spend a lot of money, but it's, it sort of comes from a place where money equals care. And that's not the case, you know, if you really want to make impact for children, you have to take a few steps back, actually, and really look at them as a as a homogeneous group, sort of like, and that's what we've done an Expat Valley, right to look at, you know, how many children actually grew up in, in another country, apart from the one they were born in, and you're talking about over 40 million children. And then we're only talking about the children that actually have sort of migrated. And if you sort of also think about children, that interact with parents that travel on a regular basis, so they actually don't migrate themselves, but they do have parents like yourself, you just discussed, you just mentioned Elon, you know, it's a huge group, actually. So that sort of got us to thinking about, you know, can we create a couple of concepts to sort of bring attention to corporates to sort of have a, you know, it's not a protest, but it's sort of saying, Hey, guys, you know, there's more to gain for everyone here, right? It's sort of as an ecosystem, if you treat your children well, you will perform better as well. And that's sort of the mission we're on at the moment. Anything you want to claim?

Carlene  

Add to your point, I think, when families are travelling, or when employees are inviting their when employers are inviting their employees to go on international assignment, you mentioned earlier in your introduction, that the mindset tends to be the grass is greener on the other side, which in a way it is, but there's a lot to be done to actually sustain yourself on that other side. And children tend to be very much overlooked. So they're sort of somewhere in the whole decision making process. Maybe some person asks the question like, when do we tell the children but hardly ever anybody says okay, but how about the children? What do they need? Working as an educational consultant, I ran into families who did have a realisation that probably summer break, or winter break, depending on what placement the water from isn't the most ideal time and place to make such an international move. But there's a lot of focus and attention going to the first move. So you're in your home country or whatever place you're leaving, and you're going to the next place. And I think one big piece of advice that we would like to give everybody is to think ahead. So what's going to be next, what's long term? How are you raising your children? Where will they be if they go to college or university or whatever else future plans they may have as an adult and what do they need from you as a parent now and from your employer to get to that point? I think as an adult, you're sort of out of that face or you're living your adult life, you know what you're doing, you may have different career plans in the future, but you're sort of done growing up. Whereas as a kid, you need much more. You need a more sustainable environment in a way. And that takes some planning and some in some time investment, energy investment. And as Matthias was saying, sometimes money investment from the adults around indicate just to make sure they're in the right place.

Karlijn 

I hear that. And I wish you could repeat it all, just so we can hear it once more. I think the occasional PT parent-teacher meeting are the you know, association meeting at the International School that may get attended to talk on the subject is the only one of the few few opportunities that parents actually sit down and think about this when they're on an international assignment. But then you look at those that are worldschooling, this new, almost hippy movement of people saying I'm going to raise my kids around the world. I'm going to use Galileo and and Unschool, or virtual school anywhere I want. And we're just gonna go from Airbnb, the CO living space to other communities. Children are often you know, just along for the ride with the parents thinking, Oh, they're gonna have the greatest time. But yet, they're developing, they need so much more than just to see and experience things. They need to be a kid to play. And yet, you know, we've all as adults taking the stress test, where a relocation or a new job ranks high. Imagine that on a kid level, you know, that relocation, being on their stress? metre? Those things really aren't, aren't considered as often as they should be, are they?

Matthijs  

Well, correct. And I think that's the whole thing of this discussion, I think the conversation we're having is about sort of having this idea of a sort of a taboo, you know, that surrounds this topic. It's like, you know, most people are like, you know, you don't have to think about these or, you know, it's they will have a good life. They're travelling all around the world, they're seeing new cultures, but you know, reality is actually completely different.

Karlijn 

That's, yeah, that's nice for vacation. Yeah. I mean, when I take my, my girls are five, and seven. And when we go on a vacation as a parent, I very much enjoyed them going out and about meaning of our kids. And in that setting, it really doesn't matter if they speak the same language, because the universal language to engage with other children is play and it works for them. But that works for like two weeks, three weeks, maybe if we're having a good time, five weeks, but that doesn't work for a year or longer. So for kids to really form roots, form their identity, established relationships, and know how to sustain them, they need a community that's greater than just a system of their close family, they need a community that's more than their siblings and their parents. That's more than the transient environment of whether that be an international school or a local school, they temporarily attempt, they need a little bit more than just that. And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't take your kids around the world because it is an amazing experience. And yes, they do learn things that they would never learn if you keep them in one place. And they grow up mono culturally, without even realising there's more in the world to see that when you do take them around to other places. Now, just think ahead and keep in mind that our kids listen to their voices. 

Allen  

Well, one thing that you brought up in your writings at Expat Valley and I thought this was really interesting was you pointed out that there's been a major migration not only, you know, globally as people travel around, but the migration of children who spent time outdoors to indoors, and to me, this really resonates, as I grew up in an age where my parents would say, go out and play and come back in three hours. And you go build a treehouse, or you'd bike ride your bike around, etc. And frankly, I felt like most of us were pretty happy with that looking back on it, and then the migration indoors where I see kids today and I don't want to sound like the angry old man saying Get off my lawn when I say kids today, but I just mean it is that they have so many more tools on the you know, you could play on the Xbox you you know you can there's so much social media, etc. And I'll even remember when I asked a group of Children, including my son, let's go bowling. And they were like, well, we could just bowl here on this game console. And I'm like, no, no, let's actually go do the real thing. And then all the studies seem indicate that children are actually less happy today than maybe us who benignly did not know about this world. So could you make a comment about that? Because I think this is really something that's unique, that I think people you know, taking a hike riding a bike in, you know, parents need to get their children out, because it seems that it's really good for us to be into nature. So I'm sorry about my long winded introduction, but something I'm very passionate about.

Matthijs  

Yeah, no. And so are we. I think what we've been trying to do as well for Expat Valley is really drive a sort of a sustainable footprint, and to really see where we can make impact. And also speaking to a lot of people, you know, people that are sort of like minded and like hearted. And this is also one of the things that we care a lot about in terms of, you know, where can we make impact for children. And, you know, one of, to your point about one of the big biggest migrations in the world that we actually haven't seen, talking about overlooked topics, is, you know, is concerning the health of our children that simply go from the outside to the inside, right. So it sometimes can be as simple as that. And I think that's sort of where we, as experts really want to position ourselves, you know, with innovative products and ideas and services, is to really put us in a position to to help children thrive, but also everyone surrounding all of the stakeholders that are included, that they also have an advantage to to put themselves in that position. And to take it out of that sort of taboos fair. And really, yeah, get ourselves in a position. It's sort of sound. So we actually had a conversation this morning, with someone that that for us, it's so sort of common sense that we think this is the right thing to do, right. But there are still a lot of people that are so you know, coming back to what Karlijnwas saying, like really thinking long term, I think the world that we live in is very much focused on short term thinking, which sort of is sort of the you know, that's where the clash sort of happens, where you want to introduce ideas such as such as we're doing at the moment.

Karlijn 

You, you have an Expat Valley on the website, that you're the ombudsman for children. What does that mean, for someone that is outside the British language, that's not a term that's as used, I first encountered it when I lived in Ghana. So expound on that and why it's important what you know, what it means to you what it should mean to the parent, the school the the humanitarian organisation that would partner with you, the corporation that would, that would engage with your services. expound on that, if you will.

Karlijn 

So when we were doing our soul searching, and brand building and sort of tried to put as much as possible of ourselves, our belief systems, the things that we encounter in our previous jobs, into the work that we are doing now, we realise that really, the thing that we want to accomplish is just to make sure that all adult stakeholder shareholders even realise that their decisions are impacting children, and specifically to us, international children. There's all story to why we care about that, but I'll try to focus on answering your question first. So when we realise that it really is about standing up for the rights of these children, and these children having a voice, having access to information, being included in decision making, being brought up by both their parents and more one parent being away, due to frequent business travel, without even realising the impact that that has on the family and all these aspects, we realise it really, as I said, boils down to the rights of these children being overlooked. And then somebody actually said to us, like, maybe you're the ombudsman for international children, and we had to get used to that actually, it took us a few days, maybe even a few weeks. But the term ombudsman basically means that you're a representative and after that as somebody that draws attention to and in our case, the needs and ones of international children. So the thing that we had to get used to, I guess most is the ombudsman. They exist in national systems. There's children's ombudsman's in the Netherlands, we have a great Children's Ombudsman, but what they tend to do is they focus on children in the national system. Whereas if you go and read the United Nations convention on the rights of children, which I should have done way earlier in my career them at 34. But anyway, I did, but if you go and read them you read you'll see that a lot of the children's rights are actually embedded with government, whereas the whole point with international children is the government becomes very ambiguous. So with Government is actually responsible for a child that's not growing up in the country that they were born in, that's not living in the country that they are a passport over off. And what you'll see is that in, it greatly varies around the world, how the whole government see their responsibility, which puts parents and other stakeholders that care about the well being of a child in a very difficult position if it comes down to caring for them. So, yeah, to put this in a few words, we're standing up for the rights of these children, and just make sure that everybody who's making decisions that impact their well being realised like, hey, there's children in the equation here, and just make sure you think of that.

Matthijs  

Yeah, and the interesting part of ombudsman is, it's an international term. So I think you mentioned Andrew Ghana, that there's also an ombudsman, so you see it in different parts of the world. And, and sort of what it says and what it tells it's also gender neutral. So it's not that Karlijn is the ombudswoman or anything else. So yeah, that sort of resonated with the audience. And I think since we sort of embraced that terminology a little bit more, it also helped us to sort of accelerate the conversations with all of our stakeholders to make an impact for those children, because they sort of inward saw, like, Okay, you're representing the the rights of those children. And rather than, Oh, this is Expat Valley, which is also very important to us. But then it was more like, tell me what you do, or show me something. And this was much more to the point for us. So that that sort of is the development of, of where we came from. She had some term ombudsman,

Karlijn 

it seems it's a missing piece of the corporate duty of care programmes in that the duty of care is often focused on the the employee. And a few appointments with the travelling, the trailing partner, the accompanying partner, I should say, not trailing, accompany partner, very little for the child other than school placement, and some language lessons. And this is a microphone that needs to be put up a lot closer to say, look, the child needs to have that voice. I think about my own 13 year old that I struggled, thinking he is online gaming, with people back in a city we previously lived in. He needs to get into the city we now live in was my first thought. But then I realised No, He's maintaining relationships, by gaming online with the people in the past. And it turns out a year, two years later, he went to summer camp with a kid that he was gaming with. And it's just one of those things to where we need to realise that these relationships kids have these days. Oftentimes, they spend hours, you know, building a virtual Lego set online, with someone across the ocean, but yet could be a lifelong friend. Because they've spent more time with them than they would if they were just riding around riding their bike to the store for 10 minutes and coming home and crashing. To stare at the TV together or to play Monopoly together. So our parameters, our framework for childhood today have to be adjusted, don't they?

Karlijn 

Absolutely, you did something interesting in what you were saying just now you you refer to your son's friends as people of the past. And I think that's something that we're capable of doing as adults. Most adults, somewhere in growing up gain the skill of realising what people add value to your life, and which people perhaps don't, or they did before, but now they don't anymore. And that's okay, relationships come and go. But as children, these relationships, they are part of our identity and still the same, they come and go, but they tend to come and go more naturally. And that's something that an international move is very disruptive to. And I think as a parent, you did a great thing to actually letting your son V and making decisions on his own term. Is this relationship now ending yes or no. And while there's a lot to be said about screen time, sitting inside it as opposed to outdoors, and it's a great thing about these new media solutions, that children are actually capable of maintaining this relationship on their own terms in a play based setting, despite it being a virtual playbase setting. So it's actually a great thing that that opportunity is out there for them.

Allen  

I think there's something else that that we should all talk about is just the simple conversation with your children about what they're interested in. And I'm just thinking about, you know, the conversations with my daughter who told me that she loved like whales and, and just love dolphins, and then to this stage, you know, joined an organisation in San Francisco, sorry, San Diego, where, you know, you try to keep plastic out of the seas, you know, that's something that she's picked up, or my son who's, you know, very worried about the environment. And obviously living in California, right now he'd see all the fires, but you see the fires around the world and floods and, and the different ways that he can help the environment. You know, I, and I think of a kind of a weird conversation. But after the Columbine shootings in the United States, they asked a child care advocate, what he would have told those those children. And he said something that resonated with me, because I wouldn't have told them anything, I would have tried to listen to them. And that just blew my mind. And maybe you guys could comment quickly on the all of you. So we'll start episode value to Andrew, you know, having those comments, conversations with your children, and drawing them out. I'll throw it to Expat Valley first, or to Fred's there and then Andrew on that. But I think it's incredibly important.

Matthijs  

Yeah, no, absolutely, I think I think you just alluded to some of the things that we have on our website, like the first aid kid, and actually all of the products that are in there, sort of allows parents to engage with children. So it's, it's about the children, you know, you put children at the centre of everything, which we think is really important, but at the same time, it's beautiful that parents also can engage with children. So like, if they're coming home, if my son, I've got three children myself, so if my, my son, or my daughter has come home, or daughter is coming home, it's always like our school, and they will always say, Oh, it was okay. But once you really sit down with them, and you sort of do something together with them, and you actually sit on the ground, and you pick, you know, you take a colouring picture in front of you, you put it on the ground, you start drawing, then all of a sudden, the conversation becomes completely different, they're much more open, and there, they also feel that you're engaging with them, and that you're spending time and that you're really aware of, and present in the moment. And I think that's one of the key things that we found out, especially when it comes to international children. You know, they're they're experiencing live in warp time, you know, they're going through life in warp drive, and it's everything is going so fast. And as a parent, being able to spend quality time with them is something so simple, but really being present with them. And actually also giving them the tools in order to to engage with them is something so simple, but it works.

Karlijn 

I'm deep in thought, this is challenging to hear, as I've looked at raising three kids across different countries. And I wish I had been in this conversation a few years back. But I'm glad that you exist. I want to hear more. More from the two of you. This is good.

Allen  

Yeah, I think it's this time in our episode that we usually ask, and we will hear more Andrew, could either both of you share in overlooked person, place or experience you would suggest our listeners discover?

Matthijs  

So let's start. Well, first of all, I just want to comment on Andrew and I will be cautious with time. But I think it's great that you're giving us sort of the platform to speak about this. And I think one of the things that we've learned is actually, a lot of our inspiration came from stories, I would, I would didn't really go as the way it should have gone. So it actually allows us to be more, you know, innovative to hear those stories in order to do the right thing. So in terms of legacy and the things we want to leave behind. I think it's great that you're being vulnerable about this and sort of really happy that we're here with you today as well. So that's sort of my first comment. Secondly, I think the fact that we're actually talking about an overlooked person or you know, like the the international child and being able to voice that in this podcast today I think is brilliant. And then I will also cater to probably where the question is meant for. I once went with a couple of my colleagues have one of you know, the company we work for out of the past. We both worked for we went to the Isle of Skye and which is a beautiful islands in in Scotland and I I've got great memories of that place. And it's one of the most beautiful places and because we obviously live in the Netherlands and Europe. It's sort of amazes you that sometimes we travel all around the globe. Whilst actually you know, in a few hours, you could actually sit in one of the most beautiful places from our perspective. So I will definitely recommend to your listeners the Isle of Skye in Scotland.

Karlijn 

To add to that, the way I found out that my husband and I were moving to Shanghai, China across the globe was when I was getting a text message. This is way before there was like web based communications on your phone possible. I received a text message on Friday afternoon. And the message was basically how about Shanghai. And we weren't engaging in this discussion about going on vacation, either, like some faraway exotic place, like Jamaica, I think it was, or Italy, there was a discussion that we have been having going on. And I realised when I received this message, like, we're not going this is all about vacation. I'm not sure what this is about, we have to decide over the weekend, actually, we went, we had great, we had a great time. And the one thing that we learned over travelling, very exotic places, because being based in Shanghai, we saw quite a bit of Asia in our young lives, that we wouldn't have had the opportunity if we have remained in Europe. But at one point, we realised that basically where we wanted to go on our next vacation, if we could choose anything, it would be a place like Italy, which to living in the Netherlands, it's not as exotic, it's not as it's kind of in the same on a saintliness, what Matthijs was just saying, but the realization also was very much that we felt that we would have been too close to our family, to allow ourselves to go to Italy, because then we would still be 1000 kilometres away, as opposed to the 9000 that we were living. So we we kind of ended up meeting in the middle ground, we did the Netherlands, and then Italy on my way back. Mmm. That's how we managed. But I guess the point I'm trying to make if we're talking about travelling anywhere in the world, and nomads have that opportunity, but yeah, stay close to your heart, and then my brand new home that might bring you to a place close to home, in my brain into exotic places. But yeah, there's a lot to be seen out of there.

Allen  

Fantastic. So we learned a lot today. And so could you share with us quickly where people could learn more about Expat Valley, whether online, LinkedIn, etc. And because I'm sure folks will want to reach out to you and of course, we'll make sure that we put much of this in the show notes when this podcast is aired.

Matthijs  

Yeah. So I think the best place to go to is our website, it's expatvalley.com a very simple that you can also find all of our details on their phone number email. So you know, also shout out to the people who are listening, you know, we have noticed that there's a lot of people actually, that are willing and actually are very happy to share their stories about travelling globally and sharing their experience what was good, what went wrong. So we always like to think you know, and be open for those stories. So you know, anything you want to share with us or any other questions about any topic related to international children, feel free to reach out to us.

Allen  

Fantastic. Well, I learned a lot today as we usually wrap up, we go to Mr. Jernigan for what he learned today.

Karlijn 

I went down memory lane, I was on the boat, picturing the the scenes that sunrise on the island on the way to the Isle of Skye and the solitary moments I had with my journal on that island on my trip there. So it's, it's a memory I haven't thought of in many years. It's over 20 years ago that I went to the Isle of Skye. And so that's I know that was only the overlooked place. But that's one of my takeaways back to kids though. Back to kids. I liked the interactive tools they built with the first aid kid that's not kit first aid kid I believe that they've they've developed and some of the things I really feel like that that needs to get in the hands of more people. And so it's it's encouraging do check that out on expat Valley calm.

Allen  

Yeah, and I I've learned a lot. I wish I applied more of it when my children were younger. But you know what, one one little aside is, no matter what age your children are, everybody has been a child once and we need to support everybody. And I was just thinking about the outside to indoors. Both of my children spent quite a period of time moving indoors and as now they're in their early 20s. They're spending a lot more time moving outdoors yet again. Hiking Joshua Tree playing tennis going to the beach. So to those of you parents out there. Some of this stuff does transition as you have those dialogues, and certainly relationships changes as times go on, but I really got to salute Our friends at x pad Valley for bringing this to our attention. I also learned today that Andrew plays monopoly in he might be one of the few left that still still does that. So I I'm not the only get off the lawn old man type of thing because I can't remember the last time the Monopoly board has come out but I do salute him for that.

Karlijn 

I'd love different countries. So it's one of those things. They don't make it into the suitcase or the container. They just get left behind. So here I am in my new my latest country and and I don't have a board yet. But guys, this has been fun today and we look forward to having you back on in the future. I hope and yeah, this is this is one of my favourites so far.

Allen  

Great. Well, I just want to remind everyone The New Nomad is not just a podcast, it's a community of people, ideas and spirit helping you take advantage of that location independent lifestyle. Please travel safely. Please protect your children. Please look out for others and we look forward to hearing from you next week. Cheers