It Might Be You- Wrongly Accused With Jeffrey Deskovic

In this episode, I sit with Jeffrey as he shares his grueling experience of being wrongly convicted and sentenced to prison following baseless accusations. He describes the physical and psychological struggles he faced, highlighting the flaws within the judicial system, but more remarkably, how he positively used the experience to help others in similar predicaments.

Episode Key points:

[00:55] Introducing today's guest, Jeffrey Deskovic. 

[03:40] Jeffrey's 'it might be me' moment'? 

[17:55] Turning his negative experience into a positive drive to help others.

[22:00] Jeffrey's incarceration and his family relationships.

[34:22] The Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation.

[45:22] Advice from Jeffrey to listeners in similar situations.

[49:38] To connect with Jeffrey Deskovic

Resources Mentioned:

Connect: 

Find | JEFFREY DESKOVIC

Website: www.deskovicfoundation.org 

Facebook: The Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice

Instagram: jeffreydeskovic

Find | IT MIGHT BE YOU

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Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Leah McIntosh: 0:03

Welcome to it might be you podcast. I'm your host, Leah McIntosh. I'm here to help you learn that on the other side of that pain and trauma is your transformation. There may be some limiting beliefs, negative emotions, and private struggles that have led you to having your it might be me moment. I'm here to help you learn to adapt because we were created to be limitless. My hope is with each episode you feel more understood and willing to accept that although some of our past decisions landed us in a place of uncertainty, we're only one decision away from living our best lives. Now. Let's heal. Hey, everyone, this is Leah, welcome to another episode of it might be you. I have a guest with me and his story is very, very good. His name is Jeffrey Deskovic, and he is a lawyer is internationally recognized. He's an internationally recognized expert on wrongful conviction and the founder of the Jeffrey desk of the foundation for justice, which has freed 11 wrongfully convicted people and help has seven laws aimed at preventing wrongful conviction. His motivation is that he spent 16 years in prison himself prior to being exonerated by dna evidence. How are you doing today?

Jeffrey Deskovic: 1:27

Very good. Thank you very, very happy to be here excited to do the to the interview and just a sense of tranquility and peace and ease and looking forward to a really refreshing conversation with you. You want to put me at ease. Just this is

Leah McIntosh: 1:43

good. I'm glad that's always my goal. So tell me a little bit about you besides the work that you do. Where'd you grow up? Married kids.

Jeffrey Deskovic: 1:56

Okay, so I'm not married. I don't have any, any kids. I grew up in peekskill, which is a town as a city. It calls itself a city. It's more like a town. It's got maybe 25,000 people there. So it's a city in peekskill, which is in Westchester County, New York, it's the suburbs. And when I grew up, it was middle class and ethnically diverse. came I grew up in a single parent household, my mother, grandmother and younger brother, a father never in my life in any aspect that actually would meet him much later in life when I was 3232 or 33 years old.

Leah McIntosh: 2:37

Oh, wow. Okay, well, sounds like it was was it a smaller small town vibe, very

Jeffrey Deskovic: 2:46

small town vibe for sure. Like everybody, everybody knew everybody and even the apartment complex that we grew up in was like situated like in the middle of town, so you can actually, you know, walk to majority of places that you wanted to go to.

Leah McIntosh: 3:01

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, see, I grew up in Kansas, but I grew up in the capital city, so I don't I didn't get that small town vibe, I guess. Even though we considered small, but I didn't know I didn't know any difference until I moved to the east coast and, and living in Virginia now. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I grew up in a small area, and no idea. The culture shock was, was definitely something I had to get used to. But let's go on and get into it. Let's get into the signature question I always ask is What was your now it might be me moment that changed the trajectory of your life where you are currently doing what you're doing now?

Jeffrey Deskovic: 3:52

Sure, so I was I was I was arrested for a murder and rape which I did not commit. Now the arrest was based upon a coerced false confession that was extracted from me in the course of a six and a half, seven hour interrogation, I was 16 years old, that feature you know, threats, false promise being attached to a polygraph being given countless cups of coffee being driven out to you know, from the from peekskill to being driven out of county to town of Bruce, which is another county 40 minutes away by car. Then, you know, based on that I was arrested. I went to I went to trial, you know, the DNA didn't match me. He prosecuted that the medical examiner commit fraud and falsely say that the victim had been promiscuous. That was how the DNA didn't match me. But yet somehow I was an innocent public defender that I had essentially didn't defend me. And I was ultimately wrongfully convicted and because I had been charged as an adult Given an a, you know, I was sentenced, I was not thought I was given a 15 year life sentence and I was sent to maximum security prison. So, not really sure if you want me to break out or explain any of those things, or probably I'm just gonna sit back and whatever you

Leah McIntosh: 5:14

Oh, where you see my mouth is just saying it open. Just Yeah, I want to know, I want to know the meat like how how can they get away with it? It's like they robbed you of your, your life. And it just blows my mind. How? Okay, I guess the first question I want to know, after it was found out you were exonerated, that there was falsification. Were those people held accountable for doing that?

Jeffrey Deskovic: 5:49

I guess the short answer is no. If I want to put a little call it or meat to that, as you put it, I mean, I attempted to hold them to account so I brought you know, I brought you know, federal lawsuit and you know, I did see compensation in the state court. I sued everybody but really it was just the entities that they work for that you know, paid it wasn't the actors that it wasn't like the police officers themselves It was a municipality they work for it wasn't the medical examiner himself. It was the county he worked for it wasn't the public defender that rendered that official representation himself it was the it was it was the entity the entity Legal Aid Society itself wasn't the polygraph himself, it was the county and who ultimately paid nobody ever faced any criminal charges. Nobody paid anything. And there was really no professional consequences either the most that could be said was that there were some indirect consequences of indirect Fallout so the trial prosecutor suddenly retired and ran to Florida two weeks before I was exonerated and the medical examiner suddenly retired after you know we filed filed the suit that gets the county very for his actions so there were those indirects but nothing direct fact the the lieutenant that oversaw everything became the police chief based in part and his role and this in my case, and even after I was assigned, rated and he was named as a defendant with it with a municipality, he worked for him after his role became clear they still stayed with him as the police chief for another six to seven years after that allowing him to retire on you know, on his own terms.

Leah McIntosh: 7:38

Wow. So it's just it just corruption is the first thing that pops into my mind is that how I guess I have a huge issue with no professional Fallout they were allowed to basically like you said, just get away with it. And you know, yes, getting compensated is fine, but you want people to be held accountable for rights. And just even as a citizen, you would want that we want those checks and balances. And when that doesn't happen, it just kind of leaves for me I just have a bad taste in my mouth just thinking about it. So I can't even imagine how you felt because it's just mind blowing. So how I guess let's let's kind of backtrack with the victim of this crime. Were you friends with this person? Or just wait? No, she

Jeffrey Deskovic: 8:46

wasn't she wasn't. She wasn't sure my classes. The freshmen one is a sophomore. I knew her name. She knew mine. That was really the extent of it. We were not even on a high buy basis. I think two years I might have spoke to her twice for like a minute or less.

Leah McIntosh: 9:03

So how that jump happened? How did they make this jump from? I guess how do they single you out?

Jeffrey Deskovic: 9:12

Yes. Yeah, that that's the right question. So in the course of the police investigation, they interviewed a lot of students from the high school and because I was quiet and to myself in the in the school, so after school and apartment complex, you know, there are a lot of kids that live there in the surrounding areas. And what I would suggest we do what usually what we did, whether that was you know, play basketball or monopoly or swim or play video games, go to movies, whatever. But that was my life after school. My life in school, though. I mean, the kids were a little bit older than me. I had skipped a grade when I was younger, so I really wasn't into drinking parties chasing girls organized sports. So when the police interviewed a lot of students from the high school, some of them told the police well you might want to talk to the man Want to talk to me, because I didn't quite fit in. Then Then another thing was that I had an emotional reaction. I was a sensitive teenager. So I had an emotional reaction to my classmate being killed. So the police thought that he was suspicious that I would be that emotional about somebody that I know, a lot of ways barely, barely knew. So they thought that that was suspicious. And they also got a psychological profile from the NYPD, which purported to have the psychological characteristics of the actual perpetrator. And I had the misfortune of matching that. And so you might say that was a reinforcing factor.

Leah McIntosh: 10:45

Yeah. So I still like it's still kind of bothered me that just because you kind of fit the description. Oh, it was a convenience more than anything. Do you feel like they even investigated Anybody else? And are they just stuck

Jeffrey Deskovic: 11:02

over there. So originally, they looked, they looked at the victim's father, but then he hired a retired detective to investigate the crime himself. And that made the police move on from him, then they did have another udfa looked at as as a suspect after that. But, you know, they wound up trying some of the aggressive interrogation tactics that they tried on me only what happened is that he had a stepfather in the home, who went to the police station, and, you know, that got his stepson added there, and I hired an attorney, and I did not have that in the household. So that I think that's why they really moved on to me, but, you know, I don't I don't consider what happened to be some sort of good faith error. I mean, you know, they did, you know, I guess we'll get to that next question, but just their interrogation tactics, and, you know, then the lack of documented witness interviews and, you know, falsely attributing a statement to me, I mean, that makes the bottom dropped out of that argument that it was a faith error.

Leah McIntosh: 12:09

Yeah, exactly. And that does lead to the next question. You know, I hear that a lot good faith error. Um, there's no good faith with somebody life is wrongly one taken, and then subsequently, somebody that's falsely accused, your life is stripped too. So is that the I hate to use a word excuse but is that the excuse that they gave you was a good faith effort and that's why we stuck with that.

Jeffrey Deskovic: 12:46

Yeah, well, well, that was well so the district attorney that agreed to give me the test thing and agreed to exonerate me that was a narrative she was pushing she kept saying you know, that's the case was righteously investigated she kept pushing that and the narrative so the narrative that's what everyone else was saying themselves except for the to lead detective so their defense for the for five years of the lawsuit before it was eventually settled their defense in a nutshell was and this is after the DNA didn't match me at the time of the trial, you know it later match the actual perpetrator who confessed who might kill the second victim three and a half years later, so their defense and despite that context, I just shared their defense was Deskovic is guilty and therefore we did nothing wrong

Leah McIntosh: 13:46

it just it's just hard for me to wrap my brain around this that three years later this individual killed someone else yet and still you still you could have been exonerated Well, you should have been exonerated from jump with their DNA that that was good enough period. But then subsequently, you still had to spend another 13 years does that

Jeffrey Deskovic: 14:10

have to do well? I mean that Yeah, the DNA you know, the DNA excluded me before the trial. I was convicted anyway I did. I lost seven appeals I got turned down for parole because I maintained my innocence. I was ultimately cleared after 16 years. Through further testing, I finally got it. The testing so but in it, but the point of it, I'm talking about now that they did not Deskovic Skilton. Therefore we did nothing wrong. I mean, that was their defense for five years after I was exonerated after the right person had been identified and you know, arrested and convicted. That was a defense for five years.

Leah McIntosh: 14:47

Oh, my goodness. So they just were sticking with that ridiculous story.

Jeffrey Deskovic: 14:51

Right? There was this telling exchange during one of the depositions. So my lawyer says well, you still say my client is right as guilty, right? Yes. You know, the DNA didn't match if the beginning, right? Yes, you know that the DNA did match somebody else, right? Yes. You know that that other person killed the second victim, right? Yes. You know that that person confessed also, right? Yes. Do you have an explanation for how a 27 year olds DNA would have been found inside of a 15 year old victim? No. Do you still say my client is guilty? Yes. That was the series of questions. Yeah, that was the questions and answers that were given. That's how absurd it was.

Leah McIntosh: 15:37

Yeah. Cuz there's anybody with a myriad of brain sales. I mean, it just how, how do they act? It's just ignorance on fire at that point, right? Saying yes, yes, yes. Why not just admit that you're wrong. It's already been proven scientifically, that you were wrong. Not to mention the fact that the individual admitted to it. Was this that awesomely the person that admitted to it in that I'm assuming got convicted of her murder as well?

Jeffrey Deskovic: 16:19

Yes, he did. He pled guilty. Yes, he was convicted of it.

Leah McIntosh: 16:25

Was he you said he was 27. So he was really he was an adult way older than you are at that point.

Jeffrey Deskovic: 16:33

Exactly. how the world is

Leah McIntosh: 16:35

he? Was he just a predator, I guess, was he a predator stock? No, he

Jeffrey Deskovic: 16:42

wasn't. So he was a drug addict. And he happens to be in the park on this path, this wooded area, and he was getting high. And she was in the park because she had been assigned enter for photography class to take pictures of foliage. She had been assigned a male student to go with her, the male student skipped out on the assignment. And for whatever reason, she decided to go to the park by herself. This was as I understand it, this was the only time she ever went because she was an immigrant from Colombia. She only been in the country for a year and a half. And she never went anywhere unless she was with her older sister or parents. And so this was like the one and only time like she went someplace. by herself. I mean, she was in the house with her sister Sister went to the restroom. And when she came back out, you know, Angela had left went to the park on on her own. And, you know, and so he she came across him, and, you know, the rest is history. Yeah,

Leah McIntosh: 17:43

sound like it was just unfortunate wrong place wrong time. Right. And it was a crime of opportunity. Alright. So let's talk about how you turn such a horrible situation that most people wouldn't be able to. I don't know function from recover, I guess I should say, in the way that you did. How did you turn this into such a positive thing? By becoming a lawyer yourself and now helping other people? What was that journey like?

Jeffrey Deskovic: 18:24

Or so it was after I was exonerated, there was another set of extreme circumstances I had to overcome. So I was released with nothing. You know, it took five years before I was compensated. So I was always passed over for gainful employment, so it's hard to have any income coming in. So I lacked stability of housing for for a little while. At one point I was a couple of weeks away from being in a homeless shelter, had to overcome the psychological after effects of I experienced PTSD, panic, attack anxiety, processing things at a slower speed feeling of having been frozen in time. Stigma, you were in prison for 16 years wrongfully. Yes. But you were there for 16 years. So how much of that rubbed off on you? Is it safe to be alone? someplace with you? technology was different. So cell phones, GPS, internet didn't exist, culture was different. Cities did not the same different people live there. So I felt like I was in a parallel world, had to rebuild relations with my extended family, my immediate family because I essentially did the time, but by myself. So all of those challenges that I had to overcome, no, but I did. When I spoke at a press conference when I was released, I gave an off the cuff to two and a half hour presentation wherever I wanted to say but couldn't ever get anyone to hear. And just when I thought I was finishing up another topic came to mind so I realized at that moment that I could be Remember the innocence movement, do advocacy work without necessarily being a lawyer. So, for the while I had all those difficulties over five years before compensated I simultaneously had become an individual advocate. So I was doing speaking engagements I was a columnist for weekly paper, was making money doing their presentations, I was doing media interviews, I was dealing with elected officials. And after five and I got the scholarship from Mercy College to finish the bachelor's degree because I was 10 classes shorter the bachelors at the time, funding was cut for college education for prisoners, got a master's degree from john Jay College. This was written on wrongful conviction, cause and reform then I was financially compensated and I decided I wanted to go to the next level with the advocacy work so I took some of the money and I started Geoffrey deswik foundation for justice which as you mentioned in the intro, we were able to free I've been wrongfully convicted people and help pass seven laws aimed at preventing wrongful conviction. So we did three of those as a organization and then we joined a bigger coalition call that could happen to you which I'm an advisory board member of and got another five laws passed as well. But at some point it became not enough for me to sit in the front row in the courtroom, why don't you be able to sit at the defense table I want to be able to represent some of the clients myself make some of the arguments and so hence I went to law school and I did not get into first time I tried to get in so I tried again seven years later and you know, law school was a handful It was a bear for sure, you know, very hard to pass, but I did I did get I did manage to get it done and, and graduate and that was all in the pursuit of the dream of exonerating others as an attorney with the thought process that the much like the master's degree the additional credential would assist me in the policy work that I was doing and enabled me to get other media opportunities so in terms of lessons that can be extrapolated, let me say this my purpose in the world you know, it's clear to me that my purpose in the world is to fight wrongful conviction for pre people prevented the preventative work the broader justice reform issues things like parole reform and elderly people in prison and mass incarceration solitary confinement college education for prisoners prison re entry president reform you know those things have a strong secondary interest and so I have used my voice my platform to talk about talk about those issues but in having that realization I have a sense of purpose in the world I get meaning out of what I what I do I have that inner peace you know that I that I feel it's healing it's cathartic it's meaningful it has I will be able to leave the place a little bit better than you know what i what i what i what i found it so all those things are part of the whole and sometimes I'm asked you know whether I'm angry and you know my answer is no because I want to enjoy my life as much as I can and I can't do that if I'm angry or bitter. I lost so much already as is why would I want to in effect lose the rest of my life is that I would really be the only loser in that scenario. So that like if I was angry or bitter that I would be negatively impacting other people that were responsible for it and the mechanism that allows me to actualize that is I take the energy that I feel and I channeled it into the advocacy work that I do

Leah McIntosh: 23:39

and I was gonna say just you know speaking with you a lot of people would be angry You know, in wouldn't know how to navigate through that. Was there anything in particular that helped you to recognize that or is that just a belief system that you've already had with?

Jeffrey Deskovic: 24:00

No I navigated that so the first week I was home I was angry and I realized that they don't this is this is destroying me I have to I have to let this go and then I'll and then I came up with all those different rationales or lines of reasoning so I mean, I like to I'm a deep thinker so I like to look at things four or five different ways before I really finalize the conclusion and make sure that things work you know multiple ways and so all those are different lines of reasoning that you know just occurred to me after just you know, doing some you know, reflective thinking Amen, I get hurt and I just want to say I just I had heard I heard I had seen and heard other people who were exonerated in media interviews ask if they were you know, angry or not and you know, I had heard their answers and you know, the first time I heard that I thought that was the silliest thing in the world ever. But you know, after that first week, you weren't nearly destroyed me and I reflected back you know, on on that so you know, so That was part of the thought process that got me to thinking, you know, deeper and coming up with the conclusion that I just shared with you.

Leah McIntosh: 25:09

Awesome, and you know, doing that reflection is it is cathartic, it is healing, and you have to ask yourself hard questions and be ready to, you know, accept the answers do. Um, one thing that you mentioned that I want to touch on is you said that you essentially, you know, did the the time by yourself. And with that, when you were convicted did that destroy your, your relationship with your family, and they just didn't show up for you anymore, or

Jeffrey Deskovic: 25:53

no, it nearly dead. I mean, you know, my mother and aunt were the only fam family members that were coming to court during during the trial. And, you know, when I was convicted, everybody still believed in my innocence. But the curious thing is that their belief in my innocence did not translate into them helping me it didn't translate into them helping me on the morale level. coming to see me maintaining contact to accepting phone calls, you know, a card or a letter, it certainly didn't translate into them helping financially. I mean, there were a few times my mother made rounds amongst the family and asked if everybody would be willing to put a manageable amount of money in so that combined, we could hire an attorney and people declined, declined to do that. My mother was the only consistent excuse me, a visitor that I had my grandmother used to come with her, my grandmother passed away six years into the wrongful incarceration, brothers, three and a half years younger than me, and he came three times in 16 years, not not at all in the last decade, several sets of aunts and uncles that would come disappear for three years come disappear for three years. And the last five, six years, you know, I was lucky if I saw my mom, like, once every once every six months. So that's what I mean, when I said that I essentially did the time by myself, I mean, not, not completely, but I had had at least as many canceled visits, even just on my mother's level, I mean, at least as many canceled visits, if not more than I had actually visits. And what I mean by that is she told me she's coming. And then she would not show up. And I would not realize that she was not showing up, I'd wake up early in the morning and look forward to the you know, the visit the outside contact, you know, the food and the visiting machine, the vending machines and the visiting room, what you could microwave, that was better food and what they serve in the vessel. So I was looking forward to that, too. You know, but so I'd wake up early in the morning, and I would be, you know, just kind of Jones in there all day. And, you know, every time I hear the, you know, the key shit rattling or the guards walking, and I'm, you know, anticipating the sees myself going door going to be open, then I would be like that all the way up until around the quarter to two o'clock. And that's when I would realize, well, she's not coming today.

Leah McIntosh: 28:30

Yeah, and that's another level of disappointment, you know? Yes. Yeah. And, yeah, it's just hard, especially knowing that you were convicted at such a young age, you hadn't even, you know, your brain wasn't even fully developed. And so to have to be locked up with men twice your age and, you know, I can definitely empathize and, and I know that I can't imagine how difficult it was

Jeffrey Deskovic: 29:09

very, very difficult to deal with emotionally. I mean, it was very frightening. I mean, they were all fully formed adults, as you've referenced, and a lot of them were guilty of very serious, violent crimes. It was three or four stabbings or Coggins day in a prison and gang activity and other violence and I'm 17 years old, I have a bull's eye on my back because I'm wrongfully convicted of a sex offense at that, you know, and that would be, you know, motivation for people to assault me. And then, you know, I really, it took a long time to get used to being even being in a cell. I had to keep fighting off feelings of hopelessness, helplessness, thoughts of giving up thoughts of suicide, maybe a third of the time, I couldn't even quite believe that I was even in prison to begin with, because, as I would think back about all the things That led up to my being wrongfully convicted. And the odds of any one of those things unfolding seem to be long, much less, cumulatively for them all to happen. So there was that there was that aspect of it. Along the way, I lost seven appeals, I think I mentioned that I turned out for the parole because I maintain my innocence rather than expressing remorse and taking responsibility. And now every time I lost an appeal, I mean, that was very hard to recover from that was almost like I had been wrongfully convicted all all over again. So all those things were difficult for me, there was maybe six or seven times in the course of 16 years where I was beat up one time, I nearly lost my life as well. So it was a lot of it was a lot of hardships to overcome, even just cutting the cutting of the funding of college education. For prisoners, you know, that was I tried to minimize the loss that I was experiencing by, you know, taking advantage of the limited education opportunities that were there getting GED and Associates and completing a year, twice a bachelor's, but then, you know, the funding was cut for college education for prisoners. So even that silver lining was taken from me, no, I did the best that I could went, once that happened. Now I started reading three or four, but for 98 forward, I later would start reading nonfiction books as a way of learning. And before that, I started doing educational, I started doing vocational programs in the prisons, but the curriculum was obsolete long before I ever, you know, arrived there. So just another example of the difficulty or hardship and heartache. And after a while it becomes, it becomes hard to like anything, to love anything to enjoy anything, because people if you do that, then it can be taken away from you. And if it's taken away from you, that means you can be hurt. So all those are things that I have experienced along the way,

Leah McIntosh: 32:00

or just listening to you just the resilience. You know, it's just another level of being resilient person. And, you know, being in being in prison, I don't think people really understand the PTSD there, there is developed like you have, it is always going to be there. And I can personally attest to this because I was a prison guard or in the juvenile system for a long time. That was one of the hats I wore. But I work with differently abled kids, which was what I felt was like my, my calling, and so it was the stuff that they had to deal with. You know, there would be times, they would just break my heart, you know, and I know that my viewpoint was not shared by a lot of other prisoners or guards at all, like we these are still people, these are kids, they don't even really understand they're not fully developed. They're not, they don't know what's going on. So they're already in trouble. You don't have to make it harder on them. And then having family members that have been incarcerated and seeing them come out and have to react element. And it's just hard is a hard thing to witness, especially if you're somebody that has an understanding and that can be empathetic, you know, I think sometimes I've had to educate people on the fact that people make mistakes, whether or not they It was a crime that they really committed, or they were just there. And it's not our jobs to be judge and jury after that they did their their do their duty, they had to go do their time. And I hate to hear that. Another there's a lot of people that are in jail, that don't deserve to be just like you. So with that, how often do you get clients, you know, like, Is it a daily thing or a weekly thing that somebody reaches out to you and say, Hey, I was wrongly convicted. I need your help.

Jeffrey Deskovic: 34:41

Yeah, that so I, we average? Well, so we have a backlog of about, you know, several 100 cases, you know, just raw cases that we haven't even vetted yet. So, you know, in some of those people, you know, have have been waiting like five or six years because you know, at one time we had a backlog of 600 cases. So you know, we've had limited resources. And you know, we've gotten some amazing results that I mentioned. But really, that pales in comparison to the volume of requests that that come in. So I even have even with having on the website that we're not currently taking any new cases because we're trying to dig ourselves out. And we're really at capacity right now in working on 10 other cases even with that, we get I get, like an A 15 new requests for help each month. So there have been 19 people that I did time with either that that were exonerated either either before me or after me. The National Registry exonerations References 2796 people that have been exonerated across the country from 1989. Forward. There is a Wayne State University study that said that estimates that 10,000 people were convicted wrongfully convicted each year. So I think that the percentage of wrongfully convicted prisoners is at 15 to 20%. Now, there's no way to be scientific about that. You can only count the exonerations, you can't count the wrongful convictions, but the anecdotal evidence seems to be flowing my way. You know, think about for me, there was a rogue chemist and he came from for example, where more than 1000 cases were dismissed when she wasn't even doing the lab work. And, you know, disgraced retired detective Scarcella in Brooklyn, New York 13 people exonerated in cases where he made the recipe he used the same same drug addict who was into prostitution as a sole eyewitness in seven cases. So just giving those as just examples of how just one rogue person can lead to many wrongful conviction cases. So yeah, so I do think that that's all that is to support what I'm saying in terms of arguing that it's 15 to 20%. Or even if you look at more conservative estimates of 5%, or two and a half percent or half of a percent, it's still a staggering number of people. When you think about that, you know, more than 2.3 million people invest in a justice system one way or another. There was a federal judge that estimated he thought that the percentage of people pleading guilty to crimes that they were innocent of was at 10%. So you know, it's a lot of people but above and beyond that now and documentary short about me on Amazon Prime about my advocacy work and life post exoneration, which is called conviction. And I talk about some of the other disturbing things that I saw while I was in prison. And one of those things is, I remember I I used to see people who are prisoners who have 15 2030 year prison sentences, you know, just dramatically oversight and then drug possession cases where if they had over a certain you know, arbitrary amount of drugs that they would could be sentenced, you know, in that way and those people had sentences longer than people that killed people or committed other other acts of violence and people being returned to prison you know, for a year or two years over like a tactical parole violation something minor like while you're supposed to be in the house, curfews eight o'clock, and I actually got there at 805 or eight and, you know, silly things like that, but people returning back to prison that way and, you know, I feel strongly that drug drug problems, you know, drug use as a public health problem, rather than rather than as a crime and, you know, diverting nonviolent offenders from prison. I mean, as a society we seem to think that incarceration is the answer to everything but I while I think it's appropriate in some situations, I don't think it has to be used as often and certainly not as as law and when people are dramatically over sentence that I used to see that and are the things in the presence of hearken back to a second point that you made that I wanted to comment on, which is, you know, just being elderly people in prison in the prison obviously not being equipped to deal with the advanced medical needs and seeing prisoners that are role models or living in honor black or you know, trying to school the younger prisoners coming in you know, in terms of Look, this is how you do your time and avoid you avoid, you know, being in trouble and just try to go home as quickly as you can try to get out of here. You know, and people with bachelor's degrees and other accomplishments and good disciplinary records so you can, their rehabilitation could be can be demonstrated and yet seeing them, going to the parole board and being turned down for parole over and over again or, you know, people that are elderly that you know clearly are not the same people that they were before such thing as aging out of crime and yet have another five or 10 years left to to do and, you know, the abuse that goes on in prison just on a verbal level or harassment. I mean, they were some of the, some of the guards were professional and some of them I actually liked. And I felt like I could have been friends with them had we met in the world under other circumstances, yet, there were many others who came into the workplace, and they took their frustrations and their personal life out on the prisoners. And then and then, and then even even a lot of the guards there that were professional, I mean, they would look the other way. And so the president ministration nobody ever real people in that were less than professional, you know. So I didn't, I don't really feel like the prison was really about rehabilitation, because if it was that they wouldn't allow that to go on college would be in prison, and all the vocational shops would have up to date curriculum. And there would be some monitoring, whether there's some actual teaching going on, but prison reform, prisoner re entry, college education, elderly people in prison, compassionate release, you know, all these things, and I shed some light on them within that, that, you know, documentary, convection, I mean, people are sent to prison, as punishment, the punishment being this philosophy of freedom. It's you're not supposed to be set to prison for punishments, that you could be mistreated while you're there.

Leah McIntosh: 41:32

And I 110% agree and understand you. on a level that, you know, most people can't, because I've seen that myself. And I do agree that is not what I got was that it was not the prisoners that were the problem. It was the staff. I never had a problem with you know, I'd have kids that were cussed me out, okay. You know, okay, fine, you know, but the majority of the kids were great. I didn't have a problem with the kids that I work with. Even if I had to write them up, or, or do something, because they were doing gang activity or whatever, that was the big problem where I was at, but I didn't have a problem with them. And we had an understanding and at kids can tell they will come up and tell me you're not here. For a job, you can tell the officers that are here for just a job. Now you could tell the people that are here, because they want to be and you know that that made me feel good to know that Okay, good. You can, I'm glad you could tell that because that's definitely you know, what I want you to see, I'm not here to judge you. I didn't I don't even care what crime you committed. This is your punishment, I'm not gonna I'm not here to make it harder, basically. And I did feel like there were certain officers and in other people in charge that strived or that was like their their goal to make it harder on these kids. And I'm like, for what is already hard enough to be a teenager locked up. I couldn't even imagine that as a team, you know, so it's important that your the work that you're doing is definitely definitely much needed. And I guess the big thing, the big takeaway that I really want people to understand is that, you know, people make mistakes, but we also need to understand that you have everybody is redeemable and deserves grace. And definitely does not deserve judgment, because you never know what happened. Like if I wouldn't. People will judge you based off the fact like you said that you were in prison for 16 years and not know the backstory that Oh, he must be a bad apple. You weren't a bad apple. You were your life was stolen from corrupt people. And there's so many people's stories that are out there like that. And I can just, you know, talk about the kids that I work with. A lot of them had no idea. They they were taken advantage of because they were differently abled. They were they had learning disabilities and they had different stuff that was going on. And some of them weren't. They didn't even commit crime like you. They just they got railroaded. And so that was always hard to work. They were convinced they were talked into taking the rap for other people because it was easy. And so I know there's a lot of people in prison that have that kind of same similar story that there may or may not be as intelligent about things. So yeah. Whoo. Yeah, your story is very, very enlightening in it. It's definitely much needed. I'm glad that you're sharing and that you turn such a negative into a positive. Yeah, yeah. So what three pieces of three pieces of advice would you give somebody that's listening that may have a family member in a similar situation or, you know, even now could be in prison? Sure,

Jeffrey Deskovic: 45:37

I would. So I would suggest that, you know, they may definitely maintain regular contact the morale is, is is maintaining morale is important when they need you to make a phone call or look something up for them that they can't do for themselves have have some urgency about that, I would suggest give them advice to do what I did, which is, you know, I went to the law library, I learned the law, I read about other people who were exonerated, I use that as, as, as motivation, I stayed out of the prison politics, I just focused on the main goal, which was just trying to overturn the conviction and, you know, regain my freedom. Definitely don't, don't, don't give up read read nonfiction books, take prison programs that, you know, have some potential benefit to you, once you return back to society. Certainly learning to type was one of the best things I did while I was there. I mean, because that, you know, big interplay between that and, you know, usage of the usage of the computer. But I think, and really just the formula that I use, you know, and this goes beyond just wrongful imprisonment, you know, this could be applied to any extreme adversity. So you have a goal, and have a realistic plan, you should be able to look at it and see it three or four different ways and have confidence that it could work. Be flexible. So remember, the goal is the goal, the plans, not the goal. So be flexible, the very the very the plan, there no reasons why something can't be done, there might be reasons why it's more difficult, but no reasons why it can't be done, can't be accomplished. Don't be afraid of hard work. And, you know, simply never give up in terms of ever giving up. You know, and I did this while I was in prison, and also the difficulties that I had in life afterwards, the five years without compensation, and trying to get into law school only getting into second time and all the hardship that was involved in getting through three years of law school, or studying for the bar exam, 1014 hours a day for 10, you know, 1010 weeks, whatever you feel, whatever, whatever I would feel like I was ready to give up that it couldn't go on anymore. I would say to myself, you know, maybe this is the key moment right here, maybe, you know, I was about to have a breakthrough. But because I gave up then it's not gonna happen. So you know what, even though I can't go on anymore, I'm going to go on anyway. And I'm going to see what happens on Windows, and I'm going to see what happens. And then once you do overcome, you know, you want you should reach back and help somebody else in the same position that you were in, while also doing some work on a preventative side. I know that that advice goes well beyond incarceration or wrongful conviction, I think that that can apply. If somebody has been a domestic violence victim, for example, or someone who's been a victim of sexual assault, or somebody who's been homeless, or somebody who has had some sort of debilitating illness, you name the extreme adversity and I think that that, you know, can can apply and in that way, you can have your suffering you know, mean something, it can, it can count for something, it'll be healing, it'll be cathartic, it will be you know, make making the world making the world a better place and now it's, it'll help you to elevate above, you know, the hardships and have some inner peace within yourself. And so, I would encourage people to apply that. I do want to mention, if people would like to keep up with me, there's my website www.deskovic.org, the scale vrc.org. I'm on social media, as well as a public figure page on Facebook or on Instagram, LinkedIn. My dream is to have a chapter of your organization and each stage and ultimately In each country because I see you know, wrongful conviction as a worldwide issue, not just a American problem in countries where we don't hear about wrongful conviction it's not because they're not happening it's simply because there's nobody working on the working on freeing, freeing people. We do have a Patreon page you know my dream What if 25,000 people could afford $3 a month and a recurring monthly basis and now give us close to a million dollars and we could bring even more innocent people and we could hire attorneys investigators, paralegals, other essential personnel, we could expand the scope of our policy work to go beyond New York, Pennsylvania and California that we're working on we could enter some other additional states where you know, advocates are waiting for us to come in and you know, work with us, but it has to be when the we have the support from the public in order to do that. Amazon has the amazon smile programs whereby if you register for a nonprofit organization, so you could register for Jeffrey Jessica foundation for justice, the information here is in the background, and Amazon will donate a small percentage of your purchase without increasing the cost on consumers. And lastly, in terms of people who are formerly incarcerated, whether rightfully or wrongfully I do on the recharge behind the bars, reentry game and it facilitates formerly incarcerated people with reconnecting with friends and family and making relationships through icebreaker questions that bridge the communication gap and remove the awkwardness from conversation so people can find that on recharge the game.com

Leah McIntosh: 51:41

awesome I want to thank you for coming on and sharing your story it was much needed I'm glad that you share it freely and keep doing the amazing work that you're doing it's it's really good

Jeffrey Deskovic: 52:00

I will and you know I do appreciate you know he said I get statements of encouragement like that. And now it does you know reinforcers reaffirm me and you know it does strengthen me to continue on for the long journey yet you know throughout the course of my life that I have to do and so I like hearing the statements of reinforcement like that it urges me to keep going and so I will keep on with this fight and I hope that along the way I know I will meet additional people that will continue that will that will assist them in in you know in what what I'm doing I mean just different ways of getting the message out there and trying to bring more resources to the financial resources to the table to express our capacity and you know, as much as I've done I don't I don't really feel like I've really reached my potential yet I feel like I'm kind of like scratching on the surface. So I think that I haven't figured it out yet and or haven't met the right people yet. But I do think for example, there is a way for me to do speaking engagements at a more frequent clip and making a lot more money at it, you know, keeping in mind that you know, I donate the honorariums 100% of them to the organization to do our innocence work so there has to be a way of speaking more frequently for a higher dollar clip or there has to be a way to break into the motivational speaking there has to be a way of making talk show making the rounds on talk shows and then you know other platforms that have like really large viewership to really get the word out there there has to be a way of getting my book which is 95% done you know, published by some major publishing company and there has to be a way of getting the movie or one man show or or a musical or or any of those things made any or all of them you're just trying to get the word out to different mediums are there has to be a way of getting to that next level I just haven't quite figured it out yet I haven't met the right people to open the door but I keep throwing the pebbles out and to the world through interviews like this and you know I hope that at some point that find the right people opportunities are knocking I can you know, get to that next point so that could be even more you know, useful accomplish even more you know, and and this work that I'm here in the world to do.

Leah McIntosh: 54:24

Awesome. Well, once again, thank you and thank you for listening to another episode of my review, and I will talk to you. Thank you for listening to another episode of it might be you. Please tune in each Thursday for new releases. And make sure to subscribe, share and review. If you enjoyed this episode. You can find me on Instagram at Perry thinker Inc. and as always remember to allow yourself the space for grace and give yourself the gift of self forgiveness.