Love Fort Wayne Podcast
The Love Fort Wayne podcast amplifies the stories of everyday people who are loving and leading in Northeast Indiana to spark imagination, root inspiration, and ignite transformation.
Love Fort Wayne Podcast
Special Flashback Episode: Shepherding the Shepherds with Johnny McCallister of Pastors in Prayer
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Johnny's Journey in Ministry
Speaker 1That makes me hopeful . But I run into a lot of young pastors and a lot of young leaders and I think my , oh my , you're years ahead of me and that makes me hopeful . I'm very thankful , I think this generation , I'm very , I am hopeful .
Speaker 2Hey , welcome everybody to the Love Fort Wayne podcast . This is Jeff King , ceo of Love Fort Wayne . Super excited to be with you today as we have a conversation , johnny Mack and I I'm going to say that again I will have a conversation with my friend , johnny McAllister , executive Director of Pastors in Prayer . It's going to be a great conversation . I know my friend Mitch Cruz will be upset that he didn't have the opportunity to sit with me on this one , but we're super excited about today's conversation and super excited to have you , johnny , so thank you for joining me today .
Speaker 1It's a blessing . Thank you for having me today .
Speaker 2It's a blessing . Thank you for having me today . Yeah , so today , man , I would love to just dive into a little bit about your heart , your journey , but also your work with caring for pastors , loving pastors' will , meeting pastors , and I know it's a journey that you've walked and there's a cool story that's connected to it . So why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners and talk a little bit about your journey as a lead pastor and a shepherd , and even what brought you to this point of leading the ministry of Pastors in Prayer ?
Speaker 1Yes , I have been walking with the Lord for 45 years , and soon after I gave my heart to the Lord , I really dedicated my life to ministry as a sophomore in high school , and so I started preaching and speaking at different places , went to college in order to pursue ministry , and fresh out of college I moved to Nashville , tennessee , and so the connections over the years have been a story of God weaving me and leading me . I worked for a guy named Michael W Smith in Nashville , and so that was my first job out of college , and through that God started ordaining and bringing me kind of to the place even where I am today . I went to Smitty at one point while I was in Nashville and I said I want to do something back home . Would you , if I plan this event , will you show up ? And so , long story short , it was in my hometown . A young lady from North Webster , indiana , came to that event and I met her and she became my wife . Sherry and I have been married now for almost 37 years , and the name of the event was Come Together Wow . And so we began our ministry both in West Virginia and here in Fort Wayne , and so for probably two decades I was the associate pastor and the youth pastor and got to learn so much and then , when I was 45 years old , I became the senior pastor at First Church and so that's a little late with a but I met .
Speaker 1After I met Sherry and we moved to Fort Wayne . Smitty and Amy were at the Coliseum and my pastor in Nashville had called a guy named Bob Yaberg , and Bob Yaberg . Smitty said you got to meet this guy , he's incredible . And so we started going to Broadway and that's how I met Bob . Bob started Pastors in Prayer and he was my pastor over these last three-plus decades and he was the founder of Pastors in Prayer and he has been my pastor . So I'm a product of Pastors in Prayer and so in my time at First Church he walked with me along with Kevin Duvall , who's a wonderful friend , and so I had a pastor and friends who helped walk me through . And so at First Church I was there for almost 14 years and so I was late . I always said I was always Aaron and never Moses .
Speaker 2And so I finally became Moses in 2009 .
Speaker 1And what a blessing and so many things that I learned and grew from and just I'm kind of a mutt . I've gone and served at different churches . Kind of a mutt , I've gone and served at different churches but none of them the same denomination . And so God has just done so many incredible things , especially at First Church , just seeing people get saved and delivered in a different way . So my story is a story of God and how he has woven , how people have led me , as well as how the people I've learned from as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I love that . You know we think about all the different chess pieces in our story and in our lives from work with Michael W Smith Smitty I'm going to remember that I'll keep Smitty there and you know to yeah , hosting this event I meet my wife and then we have these connections that from where I was in Tennessee back up , you know , to Fort Wayne , and all these little pieces in our life can lead to the next territory of life that God's asking for us to cultivate and to lead and to to shepherd others in . And I appreciate you telling your story , because who would have thought that perhaps you would end up being in the role that Bob was when he was walking alongside you , coaching you , shepherding you in his leadership role with pastors and prayers . It's cool , it's cool to think about .
Speaker 1So for me the ministry over the years has being a pastor to pastors , a friend to pastors . I'm continuing that legacy and so as I have come , I've seen that modeled . And then of course , I've seen the benefit . I always tell young leaders get into somebody's orbit , and I think there's such a benefit to that , and so I'm just so thankful for who he and Kevin both have been , and then others too . So many other pastors have poured into me . I'm so thankful for that .
Speaker 2So good . So you hit on it a little bit . You talked about how really at the heart of Pastors in Prayer is a pastor to pastor , a friend to pastors . But there's this beautiful mix of coaching , of listening , of providing counsel and support , this personal connection . Talk a little bit more about what that looks like when you guys are able to connect with the pastor and then perhaps add on to that how are some of the needs of pastors aligning with the mission of pastors in prayer , especially in this cultural climate ? As we think about the needs of pastors in prayer , especially in this cultural climate , as we think about the needs of pastors as leaders in our communities .
Speaker 1Yes , I think . For me , I think about two different things when I'm talking to pastors or if I meet pastors in ministry . I think I said earlier I want to continue the legacy of being a friend to pastors , but it is more than that . There are some folks that I'm talking to that I am . They've asked me to mentor them , and that's the relationship . There are some folks that are just , that are older than I am , and they're asking me to just walk with them , and so I think the big thing for me is being empathetic , and I always knew that as I grew in ministry , I wanted to leverage the years of experience and the folks that have poured into me , whether it was at GLS or whether it was at another conference or whether it was folks that I knew personally .
Speaker 1I wanted to leverage my years of learning and experience to help other leaders , and so I think that is just one of the things that kind of led me into this , because I want to be there . And then I think another thing is not having a dog in the fight . That's pretty freeing and I can be a person that can be safe . I tell folks that I've been set aside to do this . Folks support our ministry and it makes it possible for me to be able to meet with folks for a variety of reasons . I think I heard Mitch say one time some calls are 911 , some are 411 .
Speaker 2And I get the same thing .
Speaker 1There are some young pastors and it's quite the variety . But there are two pieces , I think , that really impact the variety , and that is the polity , because we have such a variety of polity . There's some folks that are assigned , live under authority , and then there are some who are living under the authority of a team at a church , and so that polity mix makes for quite a variety . And then the other thing is the paradigm of what's the paradigm of the pastor , and there's a lot of different kinds of expectations . So it's important that I enter in , because I'm only one person , I've had my own experience , but it's important for me to enter in to understand the pressures and the matrix that a pastor's working in , and so I have to kind of come up to stuff , and that only happens relationally . And it also is important that I am reminded that this
Becoming a Pastor to Pastors
Speaker 1is the Lord and he is the one who's calling us to spiritual leadership . So I want to be that person in their life that also helps them in their spiritual leadership .
Speaker 2It's really good . Yeah , I mean I . You know we think about the numbers that Barna put out within the past three to five years and you and I are both familiar with those About 42% of pastors have thought about calling it quits . We cite burnout and loneliness .
Speaker 1Isolation .
Speaker 2Isolation , things that are really in line with the Western culture . You've seen that as a whole culturally , but perhaps folks don't really understand the weight of that when you talk about a ministry leader or a pastor . Spiritual exhaustion is another thing I know they've said and some of the things that you talked about in regards to being in relationship with pastors 911 , 411 , are connected to those numbers . Like how does the national numbers of 42% of pastors say maybe I'm ready to walk away from this ? How does that relate to our area , you know , fort Wayne , greater Northeast Indiana and even beyond that , where you all have connection ?
Speaker 1Yes , I do think that all pastors , leaders , spiritual leaders , they do struggle , you know I wouldn't say that I know as much as Barna , of course , but I do see , I think all pastors . There's this balance of being . There's a book called the Good Shepherd , which formerly was called While Shepherds Watch their Flock , which is , by the way , a must read , I think , for all pastors . But one of the things about the title is that it says that pastors are leading and being led , and so I think that's true of everybody even in business but it's especially true in pastors wanting to walk with the Lord , being led by the Lord and then , at the same time , leading .
Speaker 1So there's a humility that's involved . There are just as a spiritual leader . It's different in that way , and so I think many pastors are trying to walk inside their calling and many feel inadequate and I try to encourage guys . That's a good thing . I think over the last five years especially and you've probably seen this I think there's been a lot of deconstruction and a lot of just in general in our culture . There's been a lot of issues , but I think that lack of clarity has been very difficult and some of that shifting in our culture .
Speaker 1So I think , feeling inadequate or possibly not feeling like they understand what to do next and how to do it , I think it's important that that they have someone to talk to that's outside of their own sphere , a safe person to talk to . That's what I try to provide and I think that's what all leaders need . They need to have a safe person who doesn't have a dog in the fight , who is a person that they can talk to , and I think also I'm trying to . The irreplaceable part for me is to also be a shepherd to be empathetic , to understand courage and affirm and really try to create that sense of connection , because I do see a lot of folks that struggle with . You know I'm not going to , I don't want to . I want to keep my confidences with the folks that I'm with .
Speaker 1I do hear folks that are just saying I don't know if I can keep doing this . I don't know .
Speaker 1You know and I I try to encourage them where they are and try to guide them . I've got three or four guys right now I'm walking through transition with and I I try to encourage them to not be isolated . So it's important that they have those relationships . But I do see that sense of like I don't know and feeling inadequate and they're wrestling with what's going on in church world and it's a very complicated issue . So that's why it's important to relationally know stories and meet with folks and be empathetic with them .
Speaker 2Yeah , you know the true word that you've experienced in regards to guys and gals not feeling , you know , adequate , adequate enough , and the lack of adequacy that they might feel in their role leading in ministry . As you said , there's a lot of us , a lot of leaders , that feel that way . I can relate to serving in local church in the past .
Speaker 2You are often and I would assume that a lot of pastors you speak to feel this way . They are the 911 and the 411 for their staff . If they're a smaller congregation , maybe for their lay staff , but then their congregation and people in the body they have so much and then maybe they're overseeing finances and board and man , I don't and , as you said , none of us are adequate enough to do it all on our own right . We need the Lord , we need the power of the Holy Spirit , but when you take on so much and you feel like man , I've got to have it all together . Those that are listening and can't see I've got the air quotes going . I've got to have it all together . So I feel inadequate and that can lead me to maybe pulling back . So now I'm isolated .
Speaker 1I'm carrying so much .
Speaker 2Now I feel spiritually inept .
Speaker 1Right . I think it doesn't lend itself to transparency . Yeah , I mean in leadership , so that if you do share , you're going through a season
Supporting Pastors in Today's Climate
Speaker 1or maybe something's happened outside . You know that's happened externally . Yeah , know that's happening externally . And if you show vulnerability , there are times when folks are like , oh , I don't know if he's the guy that needs to lead us anymore or not .
Speaker 1And I think that's a real challenge . I think one of the things that I see emerging and this gets to your question as well and that is I think it's so my daughter who works with the YMCA . She's wonderful and she has this Saturday kind of sweatshirt she wears to our house every once in a while . It's a self-care club and she's just kind of joking about it , but I kind of flip that and I think this is something I'm seeing and that is a real focus on soul care . It's not just self-care , because I think there is a balance of spiritual . How are you doing spiritually ? How are you doing emotionally ? How are you doing relationally at home ? How are you doing physically ? And how are you doing professionally ? Are you growing and stretching ? And that emotional side , I think it's really important . I'm seeing soul care becoming more and more important .
Speaker 1One of my favorite books of the last five years is a book called Resilient by John Eldredge , and I feel like that kind of speaks to this time in the sense of like , and I think that whole thing of being led is really pressing in and walking with the Lord . Keeping first things first and I think that's what I see , whether we're talking about inadequacies or the pressures of the position is stepping back and making sure you're walking with the Lord and you want to make sure that you're ministering out of a full cup .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's right , that's right , yeah , yeah , thanks for being just candid with the reality of it .
Speaker 1Yeah , and bro , I would say here's the thing I think I did not do a great job of that . I would be transparent enough to say that I think , over time , when you have different seasons or different , even wonderful things happening in ministry , you're baptizing a dozen people and you're so thankful . I think , so many times ministry can become it's kind of the tail wagging the dog a little bit you know , and I think soul care is so , so important and I see that's a trend that I see .
Speaker 1In fact I was talking to a pastor yesterday in the context of our love , our pastor's pillar inside of Love Fort .
Speaker 2Wayne .
Speaker 1And I was just I was listening to the pastor and he was talking about really back to basic stuff and I see that there's that soul care , the walking with Jesus , that's really , really important yeah so good , so good .
Speaker 2So as we talk about soul care and even just health of a pastor , we know we say it within the Love Our Pastors wing . A pillar of Love , fort Wayne , and you serve on the Love Our Pastors impact team . That's loving on pastors , caring for pastors , equipping pastors in the areas that they say they need love , and I love it and a lot of folks do . I'm losing it here for a sec , but yeah , it's often said that the health of a pastor directly impacts the health of a church . As the pastor and even the pastors are thriving , then the community thrives because the folks that attend those church and serve within those churches , they go out into the community and live and work and play and so like . Why do you believe the flourishing of pastors is so vital to communities ? Not just our community in Fort Wayne , of course , yes , but communities at large ?
Speaker 1Well , I would use , I would say several things . One is leadership , good leadership . If a pastor is healthy , he is supplying good leadership . And you might say well , what does that mean ? Well , I think there's clear vision happening and so the church has a clear vision . There's a collective agreement amongst the church . I used to coach basketball middle school basketball and . I always said hey guys , what's our collective agreement ?
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1You know , and I think as a church that has clear vision , you have that , I think . Also . I think you become more resilient , there's an increase in resilience , and so you . That's why I love the book so much Resilient . And then the other thing is I think there's good decision-making happening and I think when you're healthy , you're able to make good decisions that are also responsive , and it makes the church responsive and I see the church do that . Another thing I think it's good for the community when health—it builds a community .
Speaker 1You touched on this Out of the pandemic . We have a mental health crisis going on and I believe the answer is the church in the sense of being connected to community . And when a healthy leader creates that healthy environment , then folks are invited into community and I think that's another way it impacts the whole community
Soul Care: The Heart of Pastoral Health
Speaker 1being a part of even a smaller community , and I think that's another way it impacts the whole community being a part of even a smaller community . I think the third thing is impact . There is an impact when a healthy pastor's leading a church . There's impact . Hopefully I'm not going to be too over the top here . People have talked a lot of negativity , especially . I've walked a long time as the leader and I've heard people trash the church for years .
Speaker 2Oh , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 1I would say this we don't know what Fort Wayne looks like without the church . Every hospital that was started in this community was started by the church . Hospital that was started in this community was started by the church . The impact at our schools with the kids , just the kids that go to church the teachers that teach at our schools that are connected to a church . The impact is exponential . We don't even know the business leaders that are philanthropists and do things . Healthy churches create those kinds of rippling impacts that are huge in a community .
Speaker 1I see it so much , and I've seen it in lack as well , and so I think that's important . And then the last thing I would just . It's interesting because when you think about the church , you think about not only the impact , but you also think about what we're doing for the future and what we're building , and I think that's where we're pushing . I tell people this , I even talk to youth pastors about this , because sometimes they don't know what they're like . Hey man , you're pushing back the darkness .
Speaker 1You know you are . That's what healthy leaders do , and sometimes you don't know what you're doing . You're uncertain and everything but one thing's happening is you're pushing back the darkness , and so I think that those are some of the . I think so important for us to have healthy pastors for our community , because I think that's what they supply .
Speaker 2Yeah , I love that . I think you know too , johnny . What I'm hearing from you is that also , it's with that answer and some of the other answers . It's when the health of a pastor doesn't mean it's all perfect , right , health of a pastor doesn't mean it's all perfect , right . So if a pastor is healthy and they're doing well and I utilize that word well as it is well with my soul , right ? So if they're doing well in soul , if they're connected to the Lord , they're doing well physically , they're connected to the Word , so many areas of just thriving and doing well .
Speaker 2They can talk about the hard things and teach about a God that is unscared of trouble and is a God of comfort in times of trouble , that walks with you in hard things . But then they can also embolden a church or a body to go and live on life on mission . And what does living life on mission look like ? Well , it looks like I'm a school teacher . To your example . That just shines my light in a way of the fruit of the spirit with with love and joy and peace and kindness and patience when it's hard with students , and so many different examples , what they've seen modeled within the local church and not just maybe from their pastor , but from within the local church and how he or she , in our context with a lot of lead pastors that are women in our church are making a difference in Fort Wayne .
Speaker 2I mean , I just I love that and you know we talked that . That leads me to ask a little bit about hope , because you know there are challenges and you're able to meet and the team's able to meet with pastors that you're walking with them in 911 and 411 type of you know situations . But , man , there's got to be a lot of celebrations and breakthroughs and things that you know guys are really hopeful in right now . Can you share some of those stories , yeah ?
Speaker 1I think about . One of the things that make me hopeful
How Healthy Pastors Transform Communities
Speaker 1is young leaders . You know , I jokingly say , like my daughter , I love her so much . She goes to City Church and I think she's making a difference in our community in so many ways and that makes me hopeful . But I run into a lot of young pastors and a lot of young leaders and I think my oh my , you're years ahead of me and that makes me hopeful .
Speaker 1I'm very thankful . I think this generation , I'm very , I am hopeful and it is encouraging for me to see , you know , some of the times that I have been very thankful to be there for guys . There's a gentleman who was released from ministry . It wasn't pretty , it was awful , and I walked with him and just recently he is now and just being a friend and walking with him , knowing he has somebody that's praying for him and also walking with him and trying to be I'm a lot older than he is so sort of like you know that a figure , that not a father figure , but just somebody that can really be there for him , and recently , with great joy , even with tears , saying that he thinks that he's found his next calling , and you know him thanking me for sticking in there with him .
Speaker 1And now there's going to be a church that has a young pastor and I also different folks that , like I'm mentoring a couple of young 20s that are fresh out of college and I said would you talk ? You know , help me . I'm a youth pastor , I don't know what to do , how do you do this ? And so those are the things that really excite me . I'm a youth pastor , I don't know what to do , how do you do this ? And so those are the things that really excite me . I'm just so thankful for the opportunity to do that . I'm seeing a lot of folks that , like I , do try to be a practical help . That's one of the things I think about . That word , I think , is very important .
Speaker 1I mean I have to enter in . I have you know . Sherry reminds me all the time .
Speaker 1two ears , one mouth , john , use them proportionately I need to learn to listen better , and it's what I do . But inside of that relationship , being able to leverage all of the different things that God taught me through other people . I'm trying to do that for a younger generation and I do see fruit . I get emails that say I got to win . You're not going to believe this . I did what you , that little idea we talked about , and I can't believe it . My wife and I are so happy that I made that change .
Speaker 1And so those are the things that bring me great joy , yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , that's a beautiful thing and it's something that I think we can be hopeful in . What came to mind , as you were sharing , is I'm good friends with a couple guys that are great coaches to business leaders and nonprofit organizational leaders and they've talked about the importance in their calling . They're believers and they talk about their calling and doing that work . But , man , how we need that also with our ministry leaders and how you're able to be in that place and then celebrate the wins and things that bring you joy and where you've seen folks that are hopeful . And it just reminds me again and hopefully it reminds our listeners like our ministry leaders , our pastors , are leaders within our community that are having an impact in their work that's making a bigger difference in our city , that for the transformation that we believe in , um , you know , more kingdom come in our community . It's important to have folks like you guys that are walking with them .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I believe that , like you know , I've read and learned a lot of different areas , but probably the most important thing and this is true of everyone the most important thing that I am bringing to the table is really myself . I'm trying the failures , the mistakes I made and the things that I saw God do in the ways , and so being able to just leverage that is so important for me , to listen to them relationally and then also to also share transparently where I blew it .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And the important lessons out of that . And so I think that's and that's what we do relationally with other folks in the body of Christ .
Speaker 2So yeah , yeah , I love that . You know , as we get down to the final moments here , and you talked a little bit about the years of leadership and the places you blew it to , the things that you know you got you did well . Can you just reflect back on the years of leadership and just talk about some of the things that you've nestled in your heart , that you know that have sustained you in leadership over the years ? Maybe just as an encouragement to those who are listening and I want to sprinkle into , maybe you can wind back all the way back to those you know , those early years with Smitty , and think about , man , if I could have did it differently then . So maybe the things that I've learned and the things that I would have done as a younger leader .
Speaker 1Yes , I can't tell many stories without talking about my pastor , bob Yopper . Bob , always , he had this little email for years that I received and it was called Saying yes to God , and I think about that a lot . I thought about that a lot over the years too , that I think it's important that we you know , as I think about young leaders , or just all of us in the body of Christ it's really important , all of us in the body of Christ , it's really important . And it was important for me to know that I could trust the Lord .
Speaker 1I need to say yes to God when I wake up in the morning , as I go through my day , I need to say yes to God , I need to walk with Jesus and that , walking with Jesus and trusting him , we would never have enough time for just my wife and I to tell you how God is so faithful . He is so faithful . That's our story .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And I have four kids .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1And I can see how faithful he's been in our lives through every turn in the road ,
Finding Hope in Young Leaders
Speaker 1our lives through every turn in the road . Bob always said if I'd only done what I'd planned to do , I would have missed the best God had for me . And I think saying yes to God in that moment , walking with Jesus so you hear him , is just so important . I think again , that might be a place of vulnerability for me to transfer . I don't know if I always you know , I was kind of wrapped up in a lot of youth work and ministry but I can say that he's been faithful in that . I think that's so important . I think another thing I'm going to say may seem self-serving and it's not meant this way , but I think it's so important to get in other people's orbit .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1You know , get in other people's orbit . Think walking with not only bob and kevin , but I had other pastor friends I won't mention their names , but there have been so many people around me that I think that's been so important . And as a young person , the thing I'm reflecting on is that isolation doesn't really work . I think it's important to have those people . That's another thing .
Speaker 1I think that's something I might have done right and then listen , because you know , bob always told me Johnny , you know , keep first things first and you know , make sure that you're practicing what you're preaching . And then as well was , pay attention to your wife . You don't have a ministry without the marriage that you have . And so I really think that getting into somebody's orbit and listening to what they say and Bob had permission and he did this where he would look at me and he would say , johnny , stop talking , johnny , you're not listening . And I'd be like , okay ,
Leadership Lessons and Reflections
Speaker 1nobody else was talking to me that way and that's so important . So getting in somebody's orbit , I think , is also really important . Over the years it's something I've learned as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , that's really good .
Speaker 2I think we're made for community , we're made to be within orbits and have other people in our orbits , and I love that leadership , Jim , to lead us with , leave us with .
Speaker 2And you know , my encouragement to the folks that have been listening to us , Johnny , is that they would just take some of the things that you shared and look at their personal lives .
Speaker 2Look at your personal life , listener , and say , okay , where can I implement this leadership , nugget , this thing into my personal rhythms , pray on it , process it . But then also , you know those of us who attend churches and we're part of our congregations . My hope is that it's helping all of us be a little bit more mindful of that person that you see in the pulpit on Sundays or leading small groups or discipleship groups in your church , that pastor , that minister of the gospel in your congregation , especially with Pastor Appreciation Month , you know , on the horizon , Think about ways that you can pray for your pastor , love your pastor , remember that your pastor's a person and their calling and their heart to pour back into you and pour back into our community . So thank you for joining us today , Johnny . I mean it was a blessing . It truly , truly was . If there's folks that are listening and maybe want to get connected with you , is there a way that they can ?
Speaker 1Yes , pastorsinprayerorg is our website and there's ways to communicate even through that , and you know I'm also on Facebook and Instagram , but I would encourage them to kind of check out our website as well . I can be connected . We can be connected through that as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , I appreciate that . Well , sounds good . Thank you for joining me again , and everybody , I pray that you enjoy this latest episode of the Love Fort Wayne podcast . Tune in not only to this one . Rewind it , take some notes , but prepare your hearts for the next episode . It's going to be a dandy as well . Until we meet again , this is Jeff King with Love Fort Wayne , and we'll talk to you on the next Love Fort Wayne podcast .