In this episode, I chatted with Christy Herselman from The Chat. We spoke about the changing gender landscape, and what this means for both our children, and for us parents as we all try to navigate and understand this phenomenon that's unfolding so quickly.
We spoke about the massive rise in transgender and nonbinary teens, and touched on how the world got here.
I think what I loved the most from this conversation is the way Christy helps us parents think about this topic. She doesn’t come in with all the answers, but rather helps us understand this changing landscape, acknowledging the many complexities on this subject. This conversation was another reminder to me as a parent of the fundamental job we have to just love our children, provide them with the safe space that they need, and to have these sorts of conversations with them.
Christy is a speaker, teacher, researcher, author, wife, and mom to 3 kids with a passion to help cultivate deep connections, facilitate healthy dialogue helping raise a generation who are secure in who they are and where they are going.
8 years ago Christy founded a movement called The Chat. The heart of THE CHAT is to empower parents, organizations and communities to confidently dialogue around big topics like sexuality, digital healthy and social media in a natural, open manner that creates safe spaces for ongoing conversations.
She also equips tweens and teens to make healthy, future-focused decisions around their sexuality and identity and does workshops at schools, helping children and teens become healthy, wise digital users.
Resources mentioned during the conversation:
To connect with Christy from The Chat:
Website: www.thechat.co.za
Email: info@thechat.co.za
Facebook: thechatdurban
Stay in touch with the Future Smart Parent team:
Website: www.futuresmartparent.com
Email: jude@futuresmartparent.com
Facebook: /futuresmartparent
Instagram: @futuresmartparent
In this episode, I chatted with Christy Herselman from The Chat. We spoke about the changing gender landscape, and what this means for both our children, and for us parents as we all try to navigate and understand this phenomenon that's unfolding so quickly.
We spoke about the massive rise in transgender and nonbinary teens, and touched on how the world got here.
I think what I loved the most from this conversation is the way Christy helps us parents think about this topic. She doesn’t come in with all the answers, but rather helps us understand this changing landscape, acknowledging the many complexities on this subject. This conversation was another reminder to me as a parent of the fundamental job we have to just love our children, provide them with the safe space that they need, and to have these sorts of conversations with them.
Christy is a speaker, teacher, researcher, author, wife, and mom to 3 kids with a passion to help cultivate deep connections, facilitate healthy dialogue helping raise a generation who are secure in who they are and where they are going.
8 years ago Christy founded a movement called The Chat. The heart of THE CHAT is to empower parents, organizations and communities to confidently dialogue around big topics like sexuality, digital healthy and social media in a natural, open manner that creates safe spaces for ongoing conversations.
She also equips tweens and teens to make healthy, future-focused decisions around their sexuality and identity and does workshops at schools, helping children and teens become healthy, wise digital users.
Resources mentioned during the conversation:
To connect with Christy from The Chat:
Website: www.thechat.co.za
Email: info@thechat.co.za
Facebook: thechatdurban
Stay in touch with the Future Smart Parent team:
Website: www.futuresmartparent.com
Email: jude@futuresmartparent.com
Facebook: /futuresmartparent
Instagram: @futuresmartparent
Welcome to the future smart parent podcast. A place where my mom explores how to help us kids develop a new set of skills we need to face the future with confidence. And I'm Jude Foulston, an introverted mom trying my best to raise kids who are happy and confident kids who embrace all that makes them unique, while preparing them for an exciting future that really looks nothing like the world we grew up in. I believe there's a whole set of skills that our kids aren't being taught, these skills will be critical for them to develop in order to thrive in the future. It's up to us as parents to help them develop these skills. The future smart parent podcast provides resources for parents and kids who want to be ready for all the ways in which the future is going to be different from today, we will explore this future together bringing insights from top futurists resources from smart people working on making our lives better, and most importantly, stories of parents who are parenting a little differently, yet very much intentionally for a changing world. So join me as we explore how we can be future smart parents raising future smart kids. Too, today, I had the real privilege of speaking with Christie from the chat on the topic of the changing gender landscape. I think what I love the most from this conversation is just the way Christy helps us parents think about this sometimes overwhelming topic, she doesn't come in with all the answers, but rather helps us understand this changing landscape. Acknowledging the many complexities on the subject. This conversation really was yet another reminder to me as a parent of the fundamental job, we have to just love our children, and provide them with the safe space that they need. And of course, to have these sorts of conversations with them and with each other. Christina is a speaker, teacher, researcher, author, wife, and a mom to three kids with a passion to help cultivate deep connections, facilitate healthy dialogue, and help raise a generation who are secure in who they are and where they are going. Welcome, Christy, thank you so much for joining us today, I am super excited to share your research and your wisdom on the topic of sort of gender and the gender landscape. I think it's something that us parents, well, I speak for myself, quite overwhelming. We don't know where to start. It's it's not something that's almost familiar to us. And it's it's such a big thing in our kids and our teenagers lives. So welcome. And thank you for for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thank you, and thanks for the work that you're doing goodness. It's an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me. And so this is what has happened is there's been this there's been this huge shift, there's been this huge, it's actually comes down to worldviews it comes down to, you know, most and actually, it's quite interesting when you look at the worldviews because the two worldviews at play are what we call a binary worldview, and then what we call a dualistic worldview. So the binary worldview is, if I'm biologically female, then I'm a woman. That's yeah, that's what it is. And honestly, this, this view, head is still held by the vast majority of the world. But what is gaining what has gained so much traction? And what is the kind of the loudest voice the most predominant voice specially on social media, and with teenagers right now is is based on something called a dualistic worldview, where our bodies and our our person are two separate things. And your gender resides in your person, not in your body. So those are kind of and so this is the predominant worldview behind the transgender movement behind the the thoughts, the view that gender is, is something it's an identity within us, that sometimes is out of concurrency with our biological body. So that's kind of what's happened. And so I would I don't understand it or find difficult to understand is, where has this come from? Because obviously, this is not a new thing. We haven't we don't have have people who just in the last 10 years, like this increase of, of transgender or, or non binary humans, how has it unfolded and folded so rapidly? Is it social media? Is it just kind of a new understanding, like what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, that's such a good question. And that is the That is the question right now is how did this happen so fast? How did something that we believed for so long, just get just unraveled so quickly and something so completely different takes place. So just to give you, there's so many statistics, but just to give you one statistic in the UK between 22,008 and 2018, there was a 3000, sorry, a 4,033% increase in specifically teenagers seeking transgender treatment. And so this is the key. The key is that the massive jump has been in one demographic. And this is what is interesting. So So historically, the demographic with the most transgender people was middle aged men. So these would be people who, who were who had gender dysphoria, for those of you who are not familiar with the term gender dysphoria, that is a deep psychological pain coming from this feeling that my body and the gender I believe I am do not match up. It's a it's a, a psychological term, and it's a diagnosable condition. So, so historically, men would would kind of have this from very early on, because gender dysphoria is starts very early about the age of five, and persists through someone's life. And then these these men would then by the time they reach middle age would be cross-dressing drag queens, you know, but predominantly, that one demographic, we've seen no increase in that demographic over these last few years, nothing, it stayed the same. The massive, massive jump has been in our teens, and predominantly upper middle class teens. So from all wealthy homes, predominantly good, and predominantly girls, the vast majority of the we do have many transgender boys, the vast majority is girls. So Abigail Shire wrote this book called irreversible damage, and she was one of the people saying, kind of why this demographic? Why are these girls and you've already said some of the reasons but some of the reasons that that researchers and and experts are putting forward is, the first one is that this generation is in deep psychological pain. Some of the other statistics we're seeing is that we're seeing, we've seen almost like a 200% increase in self harm over the last five to 10 years, in preteen girls, so we're seeing lots of self harm, we're seeing lots of anxiety, we're seeing lots of depression, lots of body shame, those kinds of things. So this group of people these, these preteen girls are in pain, they suffering and so with, with the access of social media, and and the transgender movement, it's often that, that these girls have developed what is now called sudden onset gender dysphoria, where they suddenly feel uncomfortable in their bodies they never have before. And, and so these girls then asked are kind of, as you say, questioning, choosing to be non binary choosing to be trans, almost because they feel like this must be what's wrong with me. If I feel this uncomfortable in my body, I think I read that book, I was trying to remember the name and the author, it was a book of saying because of how social media is playing such a big role in it these girls in particular are kind of seeing this perfect landscape out there of how they are supposed to be as as girls, and they can almost get there and they can't have this perfect life and so that almost just escaping that and saying okay, well that's not me so I must be something else. Is that is that the gist of it? Well, that is one of the that is one Edexcel Shara does mention that in a book, and others have is this thing is if now if I don't meet the criteria of the perfect girl, then there must be then then I can't be a girl then then and, and and also, there's there's so much to this. Also, because a lot of this generation of girls have grown up under helicopter and snowplow parents, they are not used to going through hard things. And so when they get to what is actually the hardest time of your life, I honestly believe 12 to 15 Must be the hardest time of life. They don't have the resilience and the grit to just work through. Not I mean most 12 to 14 year olds go through times where they don't like their body where they feel like there's something wrong with them where they feel like they don't belong, where they wish they were someone else. And now this alternative has been presented to them and saying, Well, maybe it's because of this, maybe you should do this. And this is just, this is one of the reasons that's being put forward specifically for this demographic. And then there are also other reasons, you know, that that are being put forward, the fact that the world is a lot more accepting now, the world is a lot more, is a lot more open and a lot more diverse than it was. But I think there is a lot of concern across the board from transgender clinics to, you know, the transgender community themselves to this massive explosion of transgender identification very, very early in life, because it is such a big decision for these children. And I'm sure you've seen, specifically in the UK, and in the states now that they have what they call affirmative care where they're allowing, you know, puberty blockers, testosterone injections, mastectomy, hysterectomy is for teenagers. And so a lot of there's a lot of alarm bells going off even amongst, you know, the transgender community. And specifically, those who who just believe that a life altering decision like this should not be made when you're this young. But they are going through so much. Not I mean, I look back at when I was 14, I'm very grateful I didn't make any life altering decisions, you know, I was going through a lot of my parents were getting divorced, I had a very low self esteem, I often felt like I didn't belong, I felt misunderstood. And so it's not a good time to make life altering decisions. But then they kind of is this other school of thought that says, if a child is trans, and you don't allow them to begin a transitioning process, it's very bad for their mental health. So that's the other side of the argument of No, but we should allow our children because the, you know, there's obviously concerns about anxiety and depression and suicide and things like that, if children are feeling like they are not living, as they believe they should. So you can imagine. So there are so many strong arguments for both sides of this. But obviously, as a parents, a very, very concerning thing. You know, there's a guy called Scott Nugent's he's a transgender man in his 30, sorry, he's about 43. Now, and he has an organization called tre voices, which basically, the his organization is trying to put a stop to the medical transitioning of teenagers. Because he, as a 42 year old 43 year old man who's been through medical transitioning, is saying that it is such a highly experimental surgery, it's such a, it's such a hard, you're choosing a very hard path when you're choosing those for your for the rest of your life. And you are, is it okay to let our children make that decision? You know, he talks about the fact that when we choose medical, transitioning you cutting your lifespan by 12 years, in your 60s, you're gonna have osteoporosis and possibly be in a wheelchair or using a cane, heart issues, lung issues, it's going to cost about, he's American. So he talks about the fact that it's going to cost about $1.5 million over the course of your life, you're going to have ongoing medical and psychological care, you know, and is this something that a 12 year old is ready to decide, is the question that he has. I mean, we know we know from sort of neuroscience that the brain is nowhere close to being fully developed with the decision making part of the brain it's, it's just such a big thing for us as the parents to get our heads around and learn of course, the kids and I mean, I know I've got a 12 year old daughter, and just trying to navigate the conversations that we're starting to have with her. Just in general stuff just you know, nothing nothing big like this yet. It's It's overwhelming. So I mean, where do you ask his parents even begin? Yeah, I suppose it's worth understanding. But I mean, as you've just shown this, these these opposite views, where do we where do we begin? I think it's such a good question. And again, different, different families, different speakers, different people will have different ideas, but my my view, just kind of from my research from my conversations is don't start to soon let our boys be boys and girls be girls as they grow up. I'm not a fan or an advocate of gender neutral parenting, I think, you know, just calling boys boys calling girls, girls. And even Scott Nugent says this, he, he's the guy that I just spoke about. He says his, his take on what he what he's doing with his own sons is he's saying to his sons, you're going to be boys until you're 18. And then if after that, you decide that you want to transition, I will call you whatever you want as an adult. So I think it's important that we, we just keep things simple as they grow up boys, girls, because the vast majority of us will be binary. And the statistics around this is a very new field of science. So So data is coming out and changing all the time. But it's something like 80 to 90% of teenagers who question their gender, or go through some kind of kind of gender discomfort or, or they become trans will revert to their birth gender, by the time they're adults, a vast majority. So, so I think, just to remembering that the vast majority of us, if we are born, female, we will grow up and we will live as woman. And so keep it simple when they small, affirm their bodies as good, a firm gender as good make sure our girls know that anything is possible for them, that it's not a handicap to be a female. And then on the other side, actually, I've developed a bit of a frustration on behalf of the boys that I spend a lot I spent a lot of time with a group of 15 year old boys that are that I teach once a week about how badly they treated by girls, and how toxic and masculinity seem to not be married together. That to be masculine is toxic. So let's affirm our boys masculinity. Masculinity is wonderful. Healthy masculinity, protectiveness, strength, courage, innovation, let's affirm gender as a good thing. So I think that's the first thing is when they when they're young, keep it simple, and then answer their questions. You know, this will it as you say, this is changing very fast. It's around us. When my son was about nine, he came to me and asked me what a gender nonconformist was because he had seen an interview on a show on kids YouTube called Hi, her kids. And so I did, I answered his question. And you don't. And all of us have a bias, right? We have a bias one way or the other. So we try not to bring in our bias, we try and answer factually, this is what this person believes this is how they living. And we always speak about people with compassion and love. Whether you whatever your worldview is, because you're going to have a worldview, right? We all do. That we that we are loving around or people. The other thing is, obviously, to avoid stereotypes with our kids. Because a lot of the time and you said it earlier, is if we have a girl who does not want to make tic tock videos with her friend doing little dances, but we'd rather be gaming with with the boys. If we if we go oh my gosh, she must be trans or she must be gay. That's unhelpful. Yeah, she just likes gaming, like gaming, you know, let our children like what they like let them have freedom to express themselves, you know. And so stereotypes. I mean, the the traditional ones are boys who are dancers, girls who like rugby, you know, those kinds of things, but, but just allow our children to express themselves because it's because as as great as this new generation is, and as much as they want to pull labels and boxes apart. They do label themselves and each other very quickly. Sorry, I want to go back to when you were saying to, to kind of avoid the amount of the words right to avoid the gender neutral parenting, because it comes into this. As I understand you're not saying it's not not giving boys a doll to play with because because a boy will grow up to be a maybe a parent or a loving uncle or a nurturer. So we're not saying you don't give your your boys dolls, or is that what you're saying? Because because I do get confused. I've always, you know, and as you say, if my daughter wants to go gaming with a group of boys because she loves gaming because she loves being around them. I'll celebrate that, but we don't look at that as any different to you know, it's just a strip socializing. Yeah, so you can You just helped me kind of unpack that a little bit. Sorry, I should have clarified. So what gender neutral parenting is, this is kind of part of the transgender movement is, when a child is born, you don't use male or female pronouns to talk to them or about them. Okay? So this is a school of thought, where we don't call if a child is born with a penis, we don't call them a boy, or the girl is born in a female body, we don't call her girl. So this is, this is kind of one still quite radical school of thought, but they are a lot of the receiving are celebrities, I think Celine Dion came out with a gender neutral, you know, range of clothes, we've seen celebrities do it from time to time. And it's this idea of not putting gender onto a child until they decide what they want to be. Okay, I believe this is confusing for children. It's not something but but again, you need to do what's right for your family. But I think, just keep it simple. Let boys be boys and girls be girls. And then if you see an incongruency in your child, then you know you can you can work with that. And but the vast majority, as I said earlier, is the vast majority of teenagers, or, you know, early, late teens, early 20s, people who identify as trans, don't have gender dysphoria at all. You know, the diagnosed psychological condition is a word we hear thrown around a lot, but it's kind of more something that's happened later in life and come out of a different set of circumstances. Yeah, so that's what I that's what I mean by that. And, yeah, so I definitely, again, with the avoiding stereotypes, let our children choose their toys, and choose the sports they like the games they like, without boxing them into girls do those boys do that? I think that's, that's quite helpful. And then the other thing that I think is important is talk about this issue with your children. Because as they especially as they grow, and as they start to become exposed to social media, because it is all over social media. And as I tell teenagers, social media influencers are called influencers, because they are there to influence you. They are not called social media, facts givers, they have a bias, they have a an agenda, they, they they have a they have a purpose for what they're doing. And whatever their purpose is, we need to, we need to be making sure that in our homes, we are having conversations that balance out some of the stuff that they're hearing around, and also create a create a safe environment where they can make sense of it, think critically and come to their own conclusions. Because a lot of you know a lot of these girls in these studies that chose to become trans did it after increased social media exposure, or did it after their friends died, because this is the other thing is that girls are such pack animals, we do things. We do things. But so so I would say lots of space for connection and conversation in your homes, and limiting social media time for your children, limiting the amount of time those other external voices are shaping the neuro pathways. And alarming statistic I read not so long ago was that the average teenager spends between six and nine hours a day online. But the most alarming part for me was that the average teenager spends less than 45 minutes a day with their family. So are they getting good, healthy, balanced information from people who love them and are invested in their future to make their decisions, you know, we want to we want our homes to be loving, safe places where even when our children make choices that may not line up with our views or our values, or whatever they still feel unconditionally loved, they still know that we are there for them, we love them. You know, I I read a great article the other day of of that was basically what to do if your child comes out to you. And it was called, I love you. And then there was a bats beauty and it was crossed out. So if your child comes and says something's, whatever, whatever it is, and we're talking about transgender so your child says, I feel like I'm trans. You just throw your arms around them and you say I love you. That's your starting point. That's always your starting point. Not I love you but this is not right. I love you, but you can't do this. And of course you do want to have those conversations you want to you do want to balance that information that they're getting. Help them make a good future focus choice. But like, you know, I was listening to one, one man interviewed, he was a single dad. And he said, the last thing we want is to lose our kids to the internet. And just happens. This happens so often if a child is struggling with their gender identity, and their parents come hot and hard and, and, like, bring shame, bring judgment, that child then goes and finds an online family who will affirm Yeah, and there's plenty, plenty, plenty, plenty of people, who would they will find online, who will not give them balanced information, who will not love them and challenge them and, you know, help them make hard choices, they will just affirm a firmer, firmer, firmer firm. So we don't want that we want to make sure that our kids in our homes feel loved and but at the same time, that we protect them, and that they can process that. For me, that's been the biggest take one of the biggest takeaways from this conversation is, is the fact that as parents, it's our role to bring that balance to our kids. And I've, in our family, we've always, I suppose, beamed to being so aware of affirming and accepting and, you know, teaching our kids to be accepting and that they are different ways and that sort of thing. But perhaps what we haven't been getting right. Maybe that's too harsh, but what we can focus on is actually just having those conversations and reminding them of who they are, and affirming them in this this big landscape that they find themselves. For me, that's, that's been great. I got Yeah, I think it's so important because, you know, the, the transgender movement, and and the, the way that this generation has embraced it, is based in love and acceptance, it's based in, we want everyone to have a place we want everyone to, to feel like they are loved and honored and belong. And that is so so good. But at the same time, what does love look like? Does love is not always affirming. Love is also sometimes telling a child, okay, here's the hard truth of if you choose that, this is what it looks like. And here's some of the medical stuff. Here's some, okay, and then thinking globally thinking, Okay, what what is happening? You know, when when we decide on on a specific worldview, what is how does that work out in the world? You know, a good one to talk about with your kids is sports. You know, the transgender movement is playing out in sports at the moment, and it's really interesting to see, you know, and it's great to help them think globally think think What about rats, and a lot of the conversation at the moment is I don't know if you saw earlier this year, Lea Thomas, who was a swimmer in the US is transitioned male to female and then she won, you know, she she creamed the competition. And it a couple days later, her her middle was taken away and given to the second place, person, and fina, the world governing body of swimming made a ruling that female to male trying to transgender people could not compete in female races. And so there's a lot of stuff to think about. And and you know, there's two sides of that as well. Like, Leah Thomas is a transgender person who and when you when you listen to her speak, she says I'm a woman, I I've always been a woman, I just want to be my authentic self. But at the same time, those are her rights. But then what about the rights of the biological females you have shorter legs, haven't had male puberty, you know, all of those things. So these are really really good conversations to have with our kids. And then the other one as well that's happening right now is pronouns. I don't know if you've seen a lot of the conversations a lot of teenagers will have their chosen pronouns on their Instagram profile. And a school in Cape Town recently introduced pronoun badges. So whatever your chosen pronouns was where you wore those badges that people knew what to call you. And this is a big, again rooted in love are rooted in let's make transgender people feel included belonging all of those things, but they kind of what also happened there was those who refuse to wear them were then monitored the targeted, marginalized. Yeah, so we on the in the way of not marginalizing one people group, we marginalize another people group. And so it's so tricky and these are things we need to we need to have hash out in in good conversation. And this is why I've created my my course would for schools is let's talk about these things. What does it look like? Is it? Is it my right to choose my pronouns? But, yes, but is it also not your rights? If, for example, maybe according to your religious beliefs, you don't believe it's right, do you have to call me those? You know, there was a case of, of two boys in America recently being charged with sexual harassment for not not agreeing to use another child's chosen pronouns. So there's lots of complexity to what's going on. And I think that you really need to talk to our kids about get them thinking, you know, this is a very, this is a very, you can have big conversations with this generation, you know, you really can they really do want to talk about things, they're really, they're probably way more independent thinking than we were, which is great. Yeah. Right. Which is great. Yeah. But, so one of the things is to have those conversations with your kids, you know, and then what I often say. So two things, I think, just in terms of parenting, as well, is love and compassion for other people. So yeah, be standing firmly in your worldview and knowing that if, you know, this is also where things get quite tricky is if someone holds a binary worldview. So that's the worldview where my biology determines my agenda. They can be accused of being bigoted, hateful, homophobic, all of those things, but, but if that is your value, and it is the values of many families, especially those families with religious roots, and faith roots, to say to your child, no, that's not You're not homophobic, unless you are hateful towards people, you know, so that we, we allow children of whatever they will use to to be confident in their worldviews, but always to be loving and compassionate to those around them who have different views. You know, we don't have to, we don't have to agree with everything our friends say and do to be compassionate, to be kind to be inclusive. You know, that would mean that I can if, for example, if if I am a Christian, and you're a Muslim, we can't be friends. That's just nonsense. It's nonsense. And but at the moment, that's how this conversation feels. So my hope is that we can get past that, where we can have different worldviews around gender, but still, you know, bridge those things. And I think it's also social media that has made this conversation so polarized, because social media is not about healthy debate rights. Social media is about arm right and you stupid. That's kind of, and it's so heightened that that you're almost scared to jump into a conversation because you're going to be slammed down and shut down and call terrible things because you've got alternative views. It is really, and I suppose that's, that's part of it is is helping and teaching our kids how to have these these conversations, you know, where you're aware of your biases, and you're aware that other people have different worldviews. And as you can learn from things that you can unlearn certain things. Gosh, it's no wonder we all quite overwhelmed, there's quite a bit. And I think another thing, just in that vein, of of love is to remember that if if I do hold a binary worldview, and my gender is very clear to me, I'm a cisgender. Man, I've been married for 19 years, you know, I've never suffered with any kind of gender incongruency that treat people who may have a different view, very, very graciously, because it's not like we're agreeing on. I eat meat and you're vegan, you know, it's not, it's not that it is someone's identity. You know what I mean? It's a big deal. It's a big deal. And we might not agree on these things. But we need to treat each other with dignity and respect. Because for that person, it is a big deal. It's transgender is not just an issue. It's not just a movement, or whatever, it is an identity and we really need to be we need to be very careful with our words with the way we speak to people about people. Because I think that's also why it's such a such a scary space sometimes, like you say, I never comment on anything on social media. I just I just never do it's, I guess it's like, your new puppy is very cute. But I just like, go there. It's just but yeah, so to just be encourage, encourage people, our children to live by the values live by their worldviews, but to be gentle, kinda loving towards people around them. And then I think just lastly, just in terms of parenting is are always, and I know you also your thing is I try and I try and teach my children to make future focus choices to make. And you know, there's this amazing quotes, and it's actually from Humans of New York, which is a photography thing that, you know, Humans of New York, have the book and there's this picture of this girl sitting in a subway station. And she says, you know, people always say Be true to yourself. But that's misleading, because there's two selves. There's your short term self, and there's your long term self. And if you only choose your short term self, your long term self will slowly start to decay. And so I think this is important because our children are growing up in a generation that says, Follow your heart. If it feels good, it must be right. YOLO regret nothing, try everything. But as saying a teenager's your heart is a terrible compass. It really, really is. Because our hearts are such mixed bags of like, good stuff, some not so good stuff. So I say to market Yeah, 1515. To them now, now's not the time for big decisions. You know, I want you to have the love the care, the support that you need, in this time, whatever you're going through, whether it is gender questioning, whether it is you know, you failing at academics, and you hate school, because you're just not an academic or, or you're being bullied luck, whatever the issue is, I want people to be loved and cared for, and are teenagers, but I always say to them, just just hang on a minute. Just take a break. No, you know, I think, live live now in a way that your future self will thank you for, you know. And you know, Scott Newton says, he says, you know, we never want to be called the parents who didn't love and support our kids. But also at the same time, we don't want to be the parent with a 25 year old kid who turns around and says to us, why did you let me do that? I was a 12 year old kid, or a 14 year old kid, you were the adults? You were the adults, you know? And you just let me do this, you knew that I was just a child, and you knew I was going through stuff. Why did you let me do it. So it's a hard balance. You know, he talks about Scott Nugent talks about the fact that children can't see around corners yet. And I think it's such a great analogy is, is children are very much focused on their prisons and teams on the prisons, they can't actually see long term consequences. So he says you can't see around corners. And as you grow corners, even out and you can see down the road, when I do this, this is where it's going. And so that's why I'm and it's about the prefrontal cortex, right, like you said earlier, only fully developed when you're 26. So we as you get towards that, that that landmark brain development, and I read amazing research as well, that says, you only truly know who you are in your late 20s, which is amazing. And we fought in Korea, when we 18. And, you know, you choose, like, all of these things. And yeah, and so I think our role as parents is, is to help our children hold space and, and feel protected, but at the same time, be the prefrontal cortex for them. While parents, I mean, I think that I mean, that's a whole different conversation, but it is really finding that balance of not being their best friends of being their parent, they've got enough best friends, as we know, they've probably got 10,000 online friends, and, and a handful of parents. Yeah, it really is something that we I think, as parents need to remember, like, we can be the heart parents, and we can help them see around those corners when necessary. And that comes with healthy conversation, right? Not just you are not going to do this because it's wrong. That comes with understanding the space, understanding the science, doing some good research, and allowing your children to, to express what they feel and to be that's that, you know, that safe place where they can process at all? Well, I suppose and it goes back to what you're saying about all the influencers on social media, you know, as parents need to bring the balance and bring that to the balanced influence, I suppose. And the good news is the two kids are not just gonna say the good news is kids do care what their parents think. Sometimes we don't think so. But, you know, the psychologist needs to do more who I follow who I absolutely love, and she always says, it doesn't seem like it but your kids do care what you think so, but they can only hear what you think if you talk to them. So Yeah, comes back to connection. I suppose it might not look exactly what you want it to look like or have like an engaged teenager sitting around the table going Yes, Mom. Yes, dad. I mean, often that'll be the case in our house. It'll be like, we'll have a conversation in like, the next day, my guy will come and say, Mom, I'm sorry. I did that. Actually. You arrived. I'm not ready. You did? Listen. Thank you. Yeah, just like us as adults. So, Krista, you mentioned that you had the the course for teenagers that you do at schools. Correct. What resources do you have for parents? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, so the course is something we launching next year. And it's a five part video based course for high schools that are low teachers or wherever can run. And that's just kind of to get conversations going in schools. On the 24th of November, I'm not sure when we are recording when when we airing this podcast, but I'm doing a zoom, kind of to equip parents around this. And I do those from time to time I do zoom chats like this around topics like gender, sexuality, pornography, social media, all the big things that are talked about. So I try and do one of those a term. And then a couple of resources that I have found really helpful just in my own parenting. And in this issue, I spoke about Abigail shires book, irreversible damage, that's just quite a it's quite. I mean, it is it isn't. It's not written by psychologists. It's written by a journalist. Just it's kind of more an investigative piece around why these girls, so just interesting stuff. And then there's another book, just if you want to understand the different worldviews and things around gender, there's a book by Nancy Pelosi called Love thy body, just around the skirt around the body, and the two different views and all of that stuff. And then one of my favorite resources and I've spoken about her already is a psychologist author called Lisa demore. She wrote, probably her most famous book has been untangled getting your daughter. Yes, through the six stages of adolescence, I think it is. And then she's just written a book that I've ordered called the emotional life of teens, which I am super excited about. So not necessarily specifically on gender, but she talks into those and other issues that our children are facing. She also has a podcast called The Psychology of parenting, which I highly recommend. It's one of those ones, that's 20 minutes, you can listen to it on the way to fit your kids from school. And she'll say like, should I let my kid drink at home? You know, those kinds of things? So those are, I mean, there's so many, but a couple that I love. Okay, thank you. I'll link to those in the in the show notes. So thanks for those suggestions. This has been a really amazing conversation. And I'm hoping the first of many. So thank you so much for for joining us today and just for the work that you're doing. And I suppose let's end it off on on this last question that I have. And that is what gives you hope about this generation, this younger generation? That is such a good question. And it's such a tough question. And I almost feel bad for this generation, because we've handed in such a broken mess. on all levels, you know what, you know, I'm kind of regretting but anyway, make that make me hopeful is that, and I said a bit of it before is they're not afraid to challenge and ask questions. And to come to their own conclusions. I love that, you know, we were specially in South Africa. We grew up with just you as you told because I said, and you know, I love the fact that I have very lively debates with the teenagers that I spend time with that that that they aren't pushovers. You know, you can they they're pretty, they are much more globally minded than we ever were. You know, they are, as I said, the hallmark of this generation is love, which is amazing. You know, our generation often would choose the issue over the person, but this generation chooses the person over the issue, which is such a great is such a great thing. They really personalize things for us. And yeah, and so there's lots that there's, there's a lot that this generation has to struggle with. But I think just a couple of the things that those two things is that they want real. They don't want fake. They don't want just because because you said so or someone said so. They prioritize people and they do they are really kind of even even with social media. Yeah, you know, it's quite funny. We've got this generation of Yeah, with a flip phones and the Nokia 2110s Going like social media, I got no time for that. And I'm like, Yes, you guys are amazing. Like just being themselves. So authenticity. It's just so beautiful to watch. I love that about this generation. And I think it's something that as parents need to be reminded of, because so often we focus on the negative and the up, you've got your head and social media. And we forgot, we forget to see as they're developing as well. I mean, as you say, this is such a new a new thing that we're all learning to deal with that. Yeah, I think there's so much positive that we can focus on in this generation, and we need as parents, we need to be reminded of that. Yeah, for sure. For sure. There's so much positive and it's very easy to and to parents out of fear of like, oh my gosh, this is all the bad stuff. But actually to look at what is in our kids, because they are, you know, I mean, I always say to parents for listening to the board, hope you enjoyed the session. As always, you can reach over to www dot futures Mike's parents document them sign up, email list, as well as check out all the links and resources. Things happening. That's all for this episode. Teenagers, they are the bomb. As I head into those teenage years, embrace love to hear that. Exactly. Exactly. And you know what, they challenge you so much. And you actually have to face your own stuff, your own prejudice, your own stuff, you've believed forever, because that's, you know, and they really get you thinking that they don't keep quiet. Because, yeah, I mean, obviously, we teach all those good things like respect and all those good things. But of course, it is lovely to have, you know, they become that these these people with great ideas and different opinions to yours, and they're just wonderful. They're really great. That's a really cool way to end off this conversation. So thank you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.