The DNA of Work
The DNA of Work
Exploring the Future of Hybrid Work in India: Insights from Industry Experts
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Today we're taking a compelling journey into the heart of the hybrid work model in India to discover how the pandemic has radically transformed the workspace and encouraged innovative solutions to retain productivity and enhance employee satisfaction. So, buckle up and prepare to delve deep into the intricacies of remote work, office occupancy measurement, and the challenges of policy framing in large tech companies - which provide much of the current workplace narrative in India!
Jagvinder (Pinny) Mann, former leader at Microsoft India, shares fresh updates on the aftermath of the pandemic and the hurdles organizations are facing in reintegrating their workforces. Pinny provides illuminating insights on the use of WeWork type spaces, startups, and how companies are adapting to the new work-from-home era. We'll explore the importance of workplace flexibility, particularly for women, and discuss how different industries are grappling with changes. And finally, we'll celebrate the unexpected silver lining - guilt-free work from home! Tune in and let these industry experts enlighten you on the future of work.
Mentions:
- AWA Hybrid Working Index (please get in touch if you'd like to know more, or to get involved in future surveys)
AWA Host: Karen Plum
Guests:
- Jagvinder (Pinny) Mann - Independent Corporate Real Estate Consultant and Former Microsoft Leader, India
- Partha Sarma - Senior Associate, AWA
- Shashi Sharma - Senior Associate, AWA
- Chaithra K - Associate, AWA
AWA Guest details: https://www.advanced-workplace.com/our-team/
CONTACTS & WEBSITE details:
- AWA contact: Andrew Mawson
- AWA Institute contact: Natalia Savitcaia
Music: Licensed by Soundstripe – Lone Canyon
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Hybrid Working and Challenges in India
Karen PlumHello there . During the pandemic , many things shifted for people in India . much like other countries . Many people moved from the big cities back to their home towns and worked remotely . Women discovered ways to manage different responsibilities and hold down great jobs , taking advantage of the flexibility that was now available . So is hybrid working effective in India , particularly as I've read that many women are leaving tech companies rather than agreeing to going to the office three days a week ? Let's get into this and a range of other issues . Welcome to AWA's podcast , which is all about the changing world of work and trying to figure out what's right for each organisation , because we know that everyone is unique . We talk to people who have walked the walk , who've got the t-shirt and who've learned lessons that they're happy to share with us . I'm your host , Karen Plum , and this is the DNA of work . On the face of it , hybrid working was well adopted in companies that could embrace this way of working , because clearly not all companies can . But to find out what's going on now,
Karen PlumI've talked to some experts and you'll hear from three of my AWA colleagues later on in this episode . B ut right now, let's hear from a corporate real estate expert and former leader at Microsoft in India , Jagvinder Mann , otherwise known as Pinny . I started by asking Pinny to give us a quick update on what happened during the pandemic in India .
Pinny MannSo in India the work space is in most of the metros , which are just a handful , and people from rural India move up into these cities to really get the best from the multinational organizations or larger organizations . We do not have the work space created at home . The pandemic actually taught us that we need to do that . And that is where the hustle and bustle really happened during the pandemic , and organizations went far and beyond to support employees . Even I recall ergonomic chairs being sent to support at home because we want the employees health and wellness on top of everything . So that is what really happened . And then the telecom industry boomed because infrastructure was required and internet bandwidth was required in the rural India . So , like they say , one win is the other one's loss or the other one's loss is somebody's win . It was real market boom for telecom industry to support the workforce of India, you know they moved back to rural .
Karen PlumRight . So when you talk about the main metro areas , can you tell us what they are ?
Pinny MannIt's Delhi NCR , Mumbai , Bangalore , Hyderabad , Chennai and a little bit of Calcutta . These are the main cities .
Karen PlumSo during the pandemic, the people who had moved to those metro hubs moved back away again , moved back to their home towns and villages in many cases .
Pinny MannCorrect , correct .
Karen PlumYeah , so they kind of went back home to live with mums and dads and got looked after and fed well , and all of that sort of stuff ?
Pinny MannYeah , and basically your basic needs of home care is taken care of , and it is a huge cost saving for the individual , because when our cities are not so equipped with accommodation , safe transportation , you know , I mean the infrastructure is building up but it will take some time for everything to come up . So these people actually come and hire , rent out apartments and then they have to take care of everything . So all this cost was gone away and they actually could work from home and be there , yeah , but also , I suppose , back at home with parents or other parts of the family .
Karen PlumThey probably had more space than they would have had in a small apartment in the big hub cities .
Pinny MannCorrect , because they were - in some of our rural homes, we actually have a joint family system still , you know , parents and brothers , sisters , cousins , still living together . So there's ample space , there's ample , you know , care at home . And so they chose to do that . And now comes the challenges with it .
Karen PlumYes , i mean moving on to the challenges, you know, where are you now ? I mean , obviously India is a big country , huge country , many , many different situations . We're not going to be generalizing all over the place , but if you could make any or identify any sort of key challenges that you're seeing, trending across big organizations in India , what are you seeing in a work and a workplace sense ?
Pinny MannSo you know , the challenges that I'm seeing organizations face is that to actually bring people back for working . I mean , we may call it hybrid - you can work three days , two days - t hat doesn't help this population because this population is from campus hires to , say , mid-level managerial levels . It doesn't really excite these people because they still have to come to the city and set up home or set up a space for themselves . The higher , mid-level and senior level management people are coming back because of the schooling . The education system in India is good in the metro cities , so they are choosing to come back because schools have opened full-time and they have to be there .
Pinny MannThe next point is healthcare . Healthcare in rural India is not so efficient , so if somebody has healthcare issues or some problems , then again metro is the place for them . So companies have to now , I think , face the challenge of how they're going to attract them back . Or what are they really creatively thinking of - high retention and productivity together . Now , high retention is you've trained people , you've got them through the curve of understanding their organization or the business , and they are really productive , even though they are not sitting face-to-face with you in the office . So now what is it that they need to do, it is a big question mark at the moment . I think HR leaders , everyone is struggling with this and working around it . I have seen some organizations, they have come up with this quarterly meeting , which is quite exciting for this generation - Gen Z s and above . They are quite excited about it because once a quarter they can come into the city , have fun for a week , work also , meet up with their managers , do their one-on-ones and then go back home .
Karen PlumA week is quite a long time , so they've obviously have given up their apartments in the big cities, so where do they stay ? Is this - we stay in a hotel ?
Pinny MannYeah , so there we have the hotels like Lemon Tree , Ginger , which are quite reasonably priced , and I've seen some of them actually staying with their teammates also because it's a matter of 2-3 days - India , we are quite hospitable, we love having people over , so some are doing that . Some are taking an apartment and then sharing it with the other person who is going to come a week later or two weeks later , so they are being quite creative about how they want to do this . It's not every organization .
Karen PlumNo , but all of that time , that concentrated time together whether you're staying with somebody or whether you're just being in the office together specifically for the purpose of being together, is really great for cohesion in these teams , isn't it ?
Pinny MannCorrect, yeah , and collaboration . They really enjoy that because they are having breakfast or dinner together , because they feel it's like we've come together as a team now for these 3 days or 4 days or however it's spread out, it's different for lots of organizations . S o it actually I, personally this is my personal opinion, I think they really sort of bind themselves together in these 3-4 days because then they know they're not going to see each other for some time . This relationship building is great .
Karen PlumYes , and it will sustain them because they're getting a big , concentrated hit . I'm sure that the relationships that you've then forged, will stand a greater chance of being sustained over the next 3 months until they see each other again .
Pinny MannI have spoken to some of the younger people who are doing this . They've done it for 3 quarters now and they seem to think that this is the best way to work . But this may not work for all organizations . It's the kind of work that you need to do , especially in sales and marketing space . Are you really going to be able to achieve your targets if you are away 9 weeks and you just come in for a week ? So it'll depend , and I think everyone is working around it . How does it work best for my business and my vertical and my team ?
Karen PlumAnd it calls for a different approach to the way they provide the workplace space, doesn't it - t he types of space that these teams are going to need when they're all together in the office ? Have you seen many examples of organizations really remodeling the space that they have to suit these needs ?
Pinny MannYes , I have and I've spoken with a lot of architects who are redesigning what the current spaces are rather than building new, a nd opening it up for more collaborative activities , more discussions , one-on-one discussions or team meets , say , 10 to 12 people . So rooms , you know , which can accommodate 10 to 12 people for 2 days , you know , heads down , kind of learning session or training session or team discussion . So reconfiguring what they already have . Now , here again there are challenges , because acoustics become a challenge . You can't build walls suddenly and then rip them apart , so it's a mixed bag at the moment . Everyone is trying different things to see how it plays out and what ultimately happens .
Karen PlumSo I'm curious with the repurposing of space and people not coming back wholesale into the office in some businesses, is this producing a knock on impact to the amount of space that companies are holding on to ? Are they letting space go, or not acquiring new space if they're growing ?
Pinny MannSo it's a really good question , Karen . Now some businesses took very hasty decisions, as soon as the pandemic hit they sort of let go of spaces . Now that also was as per their leases were defined . If your lease was coming up , you could sort of get rid of your space , but if your lease wasn't coming up you couldn't , because then the penalty was higher and you were not achieving much .
Pinny MannSo what I've seen is , I think companies are being very sort of careful . They are taking a step at a time , not really making drastic changes like this , but repurposing of internal space and holding on to taking more space . So the co-working interim piece is playing a role also now .
Exploring Hybrid Work and Office Occupancy
Pinny MannSo I'll just take WeWork , because everybody around the globe knows WeWork . So WeWork kind of spaces are quite popular because everyone wants to sort of reassess for a year , year and a half and see how the growth pans out and what really will happen .
Pinny MannThe economical situations across the globe is like that . So how is it going to grow ? Earlier we had, I'm just taking a number , we had numbers that growth is so aggressive, there's real estate is far , far behind , and today we are thinking that we really need to have that much space with the hybrid model and how long will the hybrid model last ? And is it going to go back ? And when will it go back ? Will it be a five-year cycle , three-year cycle ? So these are all question marks at the moment and I think everyone is just waiting and watching .
Karen PlumAnd it's what flavor of hybrid , isn't it ? If it's still quite flexible and people can determine how many days they come in , that's one thing . But if they're going to be more fixed in terms of - it has to be three days a week - then obviously that has the knock-on impact of the amount of space that you need , particularly if you're growing .
Pinny MannAnd the startups . The startups are mushrooming . It's literally every corner has a startup in India , and the startups are doing such a fabulous job with their hiring because they are saying , yeah , you can work from anywhere , I don't care , I want my end result , I want my productivity , I want 100% productivity . I don't care you're sitting in your car and working or you're working from your hometown or you're working in the plane , it doesn't really bother me , I want my work done . So these are challenging times I would say very exciting times , because I think there's as a corporate real estate professional , for me it's really exciting to see how everything's moving and how we can work around these situations .
Karen PlumI think Pinny is spot on there . Generally , organizations and leaders are figuring things out as they go along , trying to make decisions that preserve the ability to be flexible in the future . My thanks to Pinny for sharing her thoughts and expertise with me . Next , I wanted to dive a little deeper into some of the points Pinny raised , and to do so I'm joined by my three AWA colleagues based in India . They are Chaithra K, Partha Sarma and Shashi Sharma . Having heard from them that some organizations are claiming that 80% of their people are back in the office, this seemed at odds with people not finding hybrid easy because they live too far from the big cities now , which is what Pinny had mentioned . So I asked Partha, what's going on ?
Partha SarmaI think there are two or three factors here, from what I just heard from Pinny and in general we hear a lot of these things . The narrative seems to be reflective of large tech companies who employ hundreds of thousands of knowledge workers . And I think a major percentage of the people that she spoke about - probably about 80% or above are Gen Z engineers , young guys who are picked up from the campuses - s he spoke about campus recruitment . And many of them come from outside the large cities . So the claim from organizations that 80% of people are back at work - these claims may not, all of them may not be from the tech industry; and companies in traditional segments like banking and insurance that are regulated , of course , have a very high percentage of people back in the office , i think quite regularly . Secondly , not all organizations may be using the same measurement . It's not apples to apples when they talk about occupancy . Occupancy can refer to the number or percentage of employees physically present in the office or on a given day or maybe even over a specific period , and I think different organizations probably are using varying criteria for considering an employee as back in the office . I mean , for some it could mean that employees are physically present in the office for a certain number of days or hours per week , and for others it might actually mean that employees being present in the office on specific designated days . Some people actually said that the marketing team has to be back on Monday and Tuesday . It could be like that , and it's also possible that some organizations are also considering employees who occasionally come to the office just for meetings or specific tasks -and that may actually become part of the 80% figure that they claim . And even the methods of measuring this .
Partha SarmaWe've seen companies in India who still actually do manual check-ins and I'm not talking about tech companies , but traditional companies . Whereas there are others who could be using electronic systems like access control , and these could be some of the things that actually leads to the differences in the reported occupancy rates .
Partha SarmaAnd the other thing , Karen , I always keep on thinking about the hybrid working index that AW A has , and this has two very clear parameters to track occupancy , and I think these are very reliable ones that one needs to look together in conjunction . And these two parameters are office attendance and desk usage , and a lot of people don't understand what office attendance is all about , but we like to think that it is actually the number of people attending the office expressed as a percentage of the total office population . For example , an office with a population of 100 , that has 50 people attend on a particular day would have an attendance of 50% for the day , whereas on the other hand , desk use is actually so, let's say , those 50 people come in and then there are 50 desks in the office , so that's 100% desk use on that particular day . I have a feeling some of these terms are interchangeably used .
Karen PlumI think you're absolutely right and I think that's why an index like the AWA Hybrid Working Index is so important , because it sets a definition for each of the metrics that we're interested in capturing for the different organizations , and then , when you look at the results , you can be sure that you're talking about the same thing . So yes , absolutely . So earlier on in the episode we heard Pinny talking about organizations during the pandemic period making fairly snap decisions when they had leases come up for renewal . And she said you know , they were very quick to sort of let the lease go and they're now finding themselves short of space because they're growing again . Other organizations are trying to get people back to the office, to some degree to make better use of the space that they have , but not all organizations are doing this, I guess, proactively disposing of space . Shashi , what do you think ?
Shashi SharmaSo , Karen , first of all , let me bring this elephant in the room . Let me address that elephant in the room . I don't think that the whole India is all about the IT and ITS people , right ? These are the people who are maybe around 2 million , 2 . 5 million people who are into this IT and ITS , otherwise all the other people , apart from the agriculture sector , as well as the production and the manufacturing sector , they're totally a different ballgame . They're totally different people , right ? So , when we're talking about all these people who are working from home , a manufacturing guy cannot work from home . There's no way he can do it . And I have a very clear idea , and I have talked to various people like , for example , ABB and Samsung Research Unit . You can't take the oscillator to home , you can't work there , so you have to come back to office . Even during the pandemic , the first and second lockdown , the people in the ABB and the manufacturing sector , as well as the Samsung Research Unit , they're going to office . So let's bring that clear clarity that what we're talking about . Working from home is a very , very small sector in terms of India's overall employment base . But , having said that , what I personally believe and this is what I've seen many people have talked to, is that these people who can work from home , given the opportunity that they can take the laptop and go and work on the home , is something which has happened before . Activity-based working style was developed by kind of a Herman Miller in the 1980s , and the moment we got the Wi-Fi and the Bluetooth , you're free to work from anywhere . So cubicle forms are gone and you can work everywhere . Luckily for us , this COVID has given an opportunity for us to leapfrog the technology by 10 years . I remember talking to banking authorities and banking IT financial institutes , though this is not supposed to happen in the house . Now it's happening , and I exactly know one particular client, t hey said that they asked their clients can we allow people to work from home ? And all of them agreed . And good thing about India is that IT regulation came that yes , you can do this and we allowed for that , and now these people are working from home .
Shashi SharmaNow , coming to the point , what you were trying to make , Karen , many of these people who are capable and who are productive enough to work from home has shown three different colours . One is yes , I don't want my people to come back to office because it is very financially viable for me , and I'm not going to name the firm, t he firm already said that five years let them work from home . I don't have problems because of the production and their output is fantastic , and he , in turn , has released one third or two thirds of portfolio of the real estate . He's done it .
Shashi SharmaSo there is an issue here in terms of why people have to work from home or why they have to come back to office , and that is the exact thing we need to address as AWA . So you know , people work from home , especially the IT , and IT sector , is because , in particular in India and in Bangalore , they are able to save two to three hours of travel time . Now none of the firms can compensate . There's no way they can compensate . That the person who's working from home and two to three hours of his lifetime is going to spend on traveling , which is no productivity . So the people are asking and they are getting that they're working from home for this particular reason .
Shashi SharmaI understand maybe two years down the line, people have to come back to office for three basic things . One is the skill set - they have to learn the skills from the office . Secondly , the culture - t hey have to learn the culture from the office . And the third is the decision makers have to meet with the team to take a complex decision . Only three things will bring the people back to office , apart from the stress and the loneliness , what they're going to feel in the office , in the house .
Karen PlumOkay , that's really interesting , and actually it brings up another point that I wanted to ask Chaithra about , because I know you've been reading up about this Chaithra and Pinny touched on it as well , talking about women , particularly in the tech sector , being asked to come back to the office for a fixed number of days a week and them actually refusing and leaving their organizations . Can you tell us a bit more about what you've been reading , Chaithra ?
Chaithra KYeah . So I heard that a very popular company in India mandated that everyone has to come to office three days a week . And that led to a lot of women quitting . So I think today we've forgotten but being able to choose the hybrid work model is a privilege that not a lot of professions get . Like if there's someone in , like R&D or sales or something like that , they don't get to choose hybrid and they might have to go to work .
Chaithra KAnd I think , especially when it comes to women , I was hearing this story that let's say , you have a party and you know you're done with the party and everyone is just sitting and talking . And then it's the woman that gets up to clean the house and you know all the women that are there are the ones that join her . But , like , I'm not telling that , you know men don't help out women and they're not , you know , supporting them . But it's just all the generational mindset that has come to women that they are the one that is supposed to take care of the house , the children or anything , no matter what . It's always like, you know , this is my primary responsibility and that is how , like a lot of women feel . A nd I think you know , especially women with kids , have it very challenging to handle work and house and kids , especially if the kids are very young , you know , their timings might be different . They might have to help them out with the homeworks and everything . So these are some of the domestic responsibilities that women have to take over and , you know , go ahead with it .
Chaithra KAnd I also heard a Pinny talk about how people that moved towards their natives are getting help from their parents . But again , it's very different . There are people that have nuclear families , that are living in the city that don't have the option to go back . And maybe , you know , they don't have the support that they might get when they get back to their natives . Maybe their parents are very old to help them out . So these are , you know , various situations that are there and it's very different for everyone
Hybrid Work Challenges and Workplace Flexibility
Chaithra K.
Chaithra KSo there is , I think , untold domestic duty that is imposed on women that we sort of can't get away from . There is no proper answer to , you know , if you have to have a hybrid or a completely work from office , but just being able to have the freedom to choose , like , for example , if a woman has a child and she has to go to her child's parent teachers meeting . If she has the freedom to tell I can , you know , work from home today because I have to do a certain thing in the middle of the day , so I'll just do it for two hours , I'll come back and then I'll , you know , continue my work . So just freedom of having to , you know , take the decision is what empowers the people , and mandating it would feel like a restriction , especially now everyone is adult who is working in the industry .
Karen PlumSo that's why everybody is looking for flexibility , and more flexibility than they had before , because that allows them to cope with all the other responsibilities that they have , and so they can have an interesting and challenging career and also have a family at the same time .
Partha SarmaShashi spoke about blue collared workers , about factory workers , and Chaithra spoke about people who cannot afford to actually , you know , be in hybrid mode , like , for R and D people . But let's leave them aside for a second . Let's talk about knowledge workers , something that we specialize in , and I think Pinni was kind of referring to that segment of people . But , having said that , I do feel that the kind of thing that she spoke about are largely reflective of challenges faced by large tech companies , the kinds who have large campuses, like millions of square feet , and , Karen , I think it's rightly so , because that is the sector that probably consumes in amongst knowledge workers , that consumes the largest chunk of real estate footprint in India , or , if not the largest , one of the largest . This is also the sector that employs probably the largest percent of Gen Z workers , knowledge workers that they're straight away kind of picked up from the campuses . So , naturally , the challenges related to this category of employees will be spoken about , and that's what you hear about in LinkedIn in India , and I think it kind of determines how the narrative flows , how policies are framed , and I think you know , Karen , it's such a strong narrative that I think it influences group thinking . So you ask anyone , people talk about these things . And the problem comes when some of these learnings you know , which are picked up from group thinking and outcomes , also deployed in other sectors , other industries , and these sectors actually may not be impacted the way, like she was mentioning earlier as well , the way the tech sector is . I mean for example , Shashi was referring to the banking industry , so the banking , insurance industry these are not only regulated , highly regulated , but there are legacy issues around that , so they cannot be as flexible as the tech giants . And in fact , i met somebody Alcobev recently . Al cobev is alcoholic beverages . And a lot of younger people in this company were influenced by you know , other friends and were reading and hearing and they wanted more flexibility in their working styles .
Partha SarmaLike you know , their friends in the tech industry where - more collaborative spaces and they they didn't want offices anymore . They wanted the offices to go and all of that . Now , all of this actually didn't sit very well with the leadership , who are largely influenced by legacy, you know, the premium alcoholic brand, they were largely influenced by legacy . And also the highly regulated nature of the industry . So most of the leaders now actually didn't want to let go of their offices because this seemed like a like entitlement being taken away and so on .
Partha SarmaSo this is just one small example . In a sense , I think the strong influence of this common narrative which is floating around about how work and work places ought to be , which is quite loud , everyone's talking about it , is acting as a very strong bias , I think , in other industries . What hybrid policies and work styles will work in the tech industry are , I think , quite unlikely to work in other traditional industries . So I think leaders really need to look inside their organizations and the teams and craft what really works for them and not be swayed by the flavor of the season . And if they need help with this , we are there , Karen !
Karen PlumAbsolutely , because all organizations are different and I'm sure you're right that what suits the tech industry doesn't necessarily suit all sorts of other organizations . But there are always some things you can learn and some things you can take away if you're open to it . So if you're open minded and you're willing to learn and be more flexible . And that brings us back to culture and expectations and hierarchy and status and all of those things .
Shashi SharmaI'm very happy that the COVID brought the whole thing in the context and , like last week , me and Chaithra was sitting with people from the one particular organization called Adobe . They were doing this for five years , six years back , and now this guilt feeling , guilt feeling of working from home is gone ! And that is the best thing that has happened, and I'm very happy about that . Nobody can question, the manager cannot question that why you're staying back at home . Because he has got the input . That is the one of the most beneficial , important takeaway has come from COVID and none of us who work from home will feel guilty about it .
Karen PlumYes , that's the transition that's been made . It's now acceptable . It's an acceptable place to work , rather than - it's always been a bit doubtful that if you're working from home , you're actually working , because you probably aren't . You've probably got your feet up watching Netflix ! You're having a party !
Karen PlumAbsolutely and like you , Shashi , I'm very grateful that home working is now far more accepted than it was before the pandemic . But I do know that for many managers and leaders , hybrid working is still a challenge for many different reasons . A nd that's why Partha , Chaithra and Shashi are helping organizations navigate the challenges and find solutions that work for them, b ecause , as they've said , not every one is a tech company and not all solutions work for every organization . So many thanks to Chaithra , Shashi, Partha and , of course , Pinny for sharing their insights . If you'd like to talk to the AWA India team , their details are in our show notes or head to our website advanced-workplace . com . If you'd like to hear future episodes of the DNA of work , just follow or like the show . You can contact us on our website advanced-workplace . com . Thank you so much for listening . See you next time . Goodbye !