Chris Bourassa of Red Hook Studios

Chris Bourassa, co-founder and Creative Director of Red Hook Studios, talks with host Brian Prime about the evolution of Darkest Dungeon, the studio’s distinctive art style, the shift towards narrative-driven experience, and Red Hook’s acquisition by Behaviour Interactive. Chris also speaks candily about collaboration, inspiration, and balancing the demands of game development with personal well-being.

Featured Songs:
Stuart Chatwood - The Darkest Dungeon (Theme)


Visit https://www.darkestdungeon.com/ for more Darkest Dungeon and Red Hook Studios.

Visit https://glomfest.com/ for more information about Glom Fest.

Transcript

Hello again and welcome to Void Signal. I'm the host of the show, Brian Prime. This episode is one near and dear to my heart. It's a chat with Chris Bourassa of Red Hook Studios. Red Hook Studios is the studio behind the critically acclaimed RPG, Darkest Dungeon, and its sequel Darkest Dungeon II. In addition to being a fresh blend of rogue-like and dungeon crawler, Darkest Dungeon boasts an enchanting hand-drawn crowquill art style and a memorable, haunting soundtrack by Stuart Chatwood. Chris is the co-founder of Red Hook and Creative Director on both Darkest Dungeons and helped shape the bleak, gritty tone of both games. 
I sat down with Chris for a chat one evening not that long ago to discuss Darkest Dungeon and learn more about him as a person. But before we move on to the discussion with Chris, a quick word from our sponsors.
Are you going to Glom Fest? I'll be at the L.A. and San Francisco dates for Glom Fest as an incredible lineup of dark, gothic artists from around the globe visit the U.S. West Coast next month. Say hello if you see me in L.A. or S.F., and most importantly, don't miss out. Glom Fest is going to be a unique and exciting experience. Visit Glomfest.com for more information. That's Glom, G L O M Fest.com.
Void Signal intro courtesy of Processor, visit processor2.bandcamp.com for more Processor or search Processor anywhere you get music.
Void Signal is ad-free and people-powered. You can help support independent media by visiting voidsignal.net or patreon.com/voidsignal and signing up for the void signal patreon. For as little as two dollars a month you can get extra content and contribute to the continuation of the Void Signal Project. Thank you as always for your consideration and for tuning in.

Okay, our time is at end, yet again. As always, please stay safe, and please stay loud.
Chris B - Red Hook Studios
===

Chris Bourassa: [00:00:00] Hey, is this Brian? 

Brian Prime: Yeah, this is. How's it going? Okay, 

Chris Bourassa: cool. Nice. We did it. 

Brian Prime: Yeah, we made it. I am more or less, I, it's a little early, but I'm more or less ready if you need like a minute or something, that's fine. 

Chris Bourassa: No, I'm actually ready to go. Okay. 

Brian Prime: we will go ahead and start then.

Okay. I am settled if you are. 

Chris Bourassa: Uh, yep, I'm ready to go. 

Brian Prime: Okay, great. I will just do a short little intro, and then we will just go ahead and get started.

Welcome to Void Signal. I am your host, Brian Prime. I am joined. By Chris from Red Hook Studios. That is sort of an oversimplification of who you are, but it's good enough for now, I guess. You know, lead designer on darkest dungeon and, fantastic artist.

And, you do a lot Of things behind the scenes at Red Hook. let me go ahead and just gush for a moment if you'll allow me and just say 

Chris Bourassa: thank you so much. Lemme just quickly correct you not the lead designer, that's my business partner, Tyler Segund, but certainly creative director.

And [00:01:00] we collaborate on the big pillar of the design, but I don't. 

Brian Prime: Okay. Alright. Fair enough. Appreciate that. shout out Tyler, who's not here. but thank you so much for making this work. It is, such an honor. Such a pleasure. darkest Dungeon has been, thing that is wound up being rather important to me, in my life. It's a thing that I like, play in times of, oh, I need some comfort, or It's late at night and I can't sleep. And, a thing that has been there for me at times that I have needed it. So thank you so much for birthing it into the world, I guess.

thank you so much for making this work. how are things with you in your world? 

Chris Bourassa: Well, thank you for the kind words. There's no higher praise than becoming someone's comfort game. I have comfort games, I got comfort movies and, yeah, it's a bit like a warm blanket, so it's wonderful to be considered that for, for someone else.

Brian Prime: Yeah. 

Chris Bourassa: Well, yeah, things are good. we've done a lot of updates for Darkest Dunson two, and, we're still, keeping on with it. yeah, we just did, the [00:02:00] kingdom's, game mode expansion in, January. And we're working on a follow up release.

This is all free content. Actually, we released a paid DLC earlier this year too. with the abomination back. so It was a lot of fun to really push the design and, you know, not just The visual design, but the mechanical implementation of that character was pretty complex.

But it was pretty rewarding for the team. So it's been a lot of fun to just keep adding to this world that we love. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. and I do like the direction that dark asension to went as far as feeling a little more. a little more narrative, a learning of where these characters sort of came from. I enjoyed that quite a bit. so it's, it was a lot of fun 

Chris Bourassa: to make too. our hope was that in doing a different type of a sequel. We would avoid the debate of which one was better, because we weren't trying to one up the first game, you know?

Chris' Son: Sure. 

Chris Bourassa: There's plenty of debate over which one is better. but it was important to us to be excited and interested and, passionate about the direction of the [00:03:00] game. Mm-hmm. and retreading the same ground, but with better graphics or. Different heroes or a slightly different setting just didn't grab us the same way.

trying a completely different approach and, narratively bringing the focus onto the heroes instead of the bosses. Kind of leaving the main antagonist from the first game. The ancestor sort of leaving him behind a little bit because, you know, we pretty much established that he was the worst and, I didn't know what else we could say about him.

Sure. So it was really refreshing to kind of embrace different like narrative structure and story space. 

Brian Prime: and it well executed. I would say I, it was a thing that I, I found myself really enjoying. Like, oh, I'm gonna take, this hero out on the journey again because I want to see what happens next in their story or play their next, you know, little level or whatever it is.



Chris Bourassa: about them a lot like, like kind of low fantasy X-Men. Yeah. you know, they're kind of a big family, a dysfunctional family of exceptional people, but very, very flawed, very human. And [00:04:00] everybody has their kind of like, You know, Thomas, Martha Wayne origin story. Yeah. You know, cooked in there.

So it was a big challenge to write like a five part kind of mini horror story for every hero inside of a five part major horror story for, you know, the protagonist. But it was a lot of fun. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. a lot of payoff. I find myself sort of drawn to the characters in ways that I previously had not really, felt like, things that were sort of, about their character.

were made more evident and more clear They felt more fully fleshed out, I guess. I enjoyed that quite a bit. I was gonna ask you, 'cause the, red Hook was acquired not too long ago by, behavior Active. Mm-hmm. And it sounded sort of based on the press release kind of interview thing that I read.

It kind of sounded like another darkest dungeon game of some kind was maybe in the future. I'm excited for that, that kind of a thing. but I was curious to hear just sort of, if you, I mean, this is a thing your [00:05:00] baby that you've made that you, you know, are passionate about. But, are you okay with continuing to work in this realm, in this world you've created?

Or do you feel that need to like, oh, I'd like to take a breath and do something different for a, for a spell? 

Chris Bourassa: This is a very complicated question actually. I would love to take a break. but I would also love nothing more than to continue to develop, the space that we built, the characters, the setting the kind of creative carve out that we've managed to make.

it's very humbling and, I love that we have an audience. games are so competitive. indies kind of had a really nice period of exposure, that lasted, you know, Eight to 12 years, it's definitely changing now, and the focus I feel like is returning, outside of the stellar standouts.

Like you're always gonna have a started value, always gonna have a tro. these kind of like outta left field. No one thought it could be done type games, but we're definitely seeing a pivot back to, bigger studios, bigger [00:06:00] releases, AAA production values, that kind of thing. it's very, very special to me that, that our, our game has managed to carve out a niche and maintain a fan base, you know, that has seen us through kind of the past decade basically.

Mm-hmm. So, I love darkest dungeon. I am not sick of it. There's a lot more that I want to do with it. I would also love a break at the same exact time as being in love with Dar as dungeon, but, that was part of the reason why the behavior thing made a lot of sense. we felt like, you know, we had a lot of plans and ideas for what we could do as a studio, Tyler and I 

Chris' Son: mm-hmm.

Chris Bourassa: we had a put together a great team for DD two, three times bigger than the darkest dungeon. One team, all passionate, all really, you know, worked hard to ship that game. And, we felt like we needed a partner to kind of take the studio and the franchise to kind of the next level.

Mm-hmm. and we were kind of at that teetering point where like, you can be hands-on with everything, with five people, you can be hands-on with everything with 10 people. It turns [00:07:00] out that you can be almost hands-on with everything at about. 25 people. So having a partner who is invested in our vision and kind of gives us the ability to grow to, unburden ourselves of some things like, you know, we now have integrated legal, we now have integrated finance.

These are like, you know, operational overhead that. Are not really the reason why we started our company. We started Red Hook to make darkest Dungeon. We didn't start Red Hook to have the best financial accounting tool set, you know, in the indie game space. So, you know, that is just one of the upsides for us of doing that deal we get big company support, but we are able to develop, I know we're calling it like the island model, essentially. We're not, tied into their. Day to day, we continue to make the decisions that we make for the product.

we closed the deal in September, I guess, and, our plan was always to ship the kingdom's update and we did it. And we've got two more of those we want to do. some other stuff we're cooking on. we're still kind of, [00:08:00] masters of our own destiny, but we have a little more support behind us, which allows us to, 

Step back from some of those other roles that are maybe not as central to, the IP as 

Brian Prime: Sure. more hands picking up logistical things in the background. 

Chris Bourassa: yeah, exactly. 

Brian Prime: Okay. 

Chris Bourassa: That makes sense. it's a bigger company now, Like, just even Red Hook.

there's a lot more that has to happen, behind the scenes for people to work there to get, the best benefit rate and, have consistent staff policies and all these types of things that are, not even my strength, let alone my area of interest.

Brian Prime: Nobody wants to be the HR person. I mean, I'm 

Chris Bourassa: sure there are people that, but you can't run a company without it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's so necessary. No, you need that scaffolding to succeed, quite frankly. Yeah. And to attract talent. but it sucks and I hate it. so, that was one of the things that the, that the behavior, partnership kind of offers.

Brian Prime: Gotcha. 

Chris Bourassa: No. Okay. we will 

Chris' Son: Sure. 

Chris Bourassa: but we want to go slow and, we want to do it as it makes sense. We've always hired, based on a need. Mm-hmm. [00:09:00] as opposed to like a mandate for growth, you know?

Sure. Like, we've gotta add X headcount for whatever reason. so we want to be really judicious about how we do that. Because it's really important to us that if you're gonna work at Red Hook, you also love Darkest Dungeon and you like kind of our grassroots origin story. And you kind of fit culturally and, yeah, I don't wanna rush it.

I've seen a lot of studios grow very quickly and they start to buckle under the weight of those decisions. 

Brian Prime: Gotcha. it seems smart, it seems prudent. Well, hopefully it is. Hopefully it is. okay, let me, pick your brain then, because this is Void.

Signal is primarily a sort of music based podcast to start with, but, you know, branching out from there. With your help. but I did want to sort of, pick your brain a little bit and ask just how much music has played a role in your creative, endeavors. Like what kind of soundtracks, what kind of sound design did you maybe have in mind, if any, [00:10:00] going into the creation of Darkest Engine, did you already have an idea of like, oh, I want it to kind of sound like this, or can you talk a little about that?

Chris Bourassa: Yeah. we have a bit of a weird story with how we got our music, Tyler and his girlfriend at the time. She met a colleague at her job, and I think the four of them got together and had lunch or did something. And, he comes back to this studio that we were squatting at basically in the back room.

he's like, Hey, I think I met a guy, who could do our music for us. This is very, very early days. and I'm like, okay, really? And he's like, well, yeah, he is got a band. And I'm like, they all have bands, man. Like, who is this guy? You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. everybody's in a band, everybody's working on a screenplay.

he's like, I don't know, you know, he seemed pretty legit. His name was like Stewart. And, he's in a band called the Tea Party. I was like, what? the Tea Party, which is a pretty important Canadian, alternative rock band.

They were [00:11:00] internationally too. in the nineties when I was going to school. so that blew my mind because, there's the, tragic hip, there's rush, there's Tea party. it's up there with the kind of Canadian, music exports. And sure enough, we got to know Stewart who plays, keyboard, bass 

For the Tea Party. And, had also done the soundtrack for, prince of Persia, Santa Time, I believe. and that style of music was what, you know, I had kind of quietly been, thinking about when you need something like. That sounds threatening morbid, but also a little exotic. And I wanted that modern edge because, in one of my first meetings with the, the kind of modern post, like the industrial sound would sound insanity to someone in the Middle Ages. It would sound like, you know, the voice of the devil basically. they sound like madness. So I was like, we should put in those modern filters. Pull from that, like soundscape a little bit, in addition to the period appropriate instruments, just to [00:12:00] give it that kind of like, chaos and madness that the game was kind of really about and he was all over that and has delivered, exceptional work for a decade for us.

Mm-hmm. it's all on Spotify and it's, it's all excellent work and he still keeps trying to top himself. Every time we do A DLC, he's like, okay. You know, I thought about it, I thought about this and these themes and how does this fit? And, he's super, super passionate, which is, which is great. You know, when, when somebody does that, you, you wanna equal their effort in your own area.

And, so it's a, it's pretty special, relationship. Crazy that he's in the Tea Party. Yeah. He's like, I'm writing this song for the color of Madness. DLC in my hotel room, you know, in Australia. 'cause we're on tour. Yeah. It's like wild. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. That's pretty crazy. I had no idea, that he was like, in, I'm not Canadian.

I had no idea what the learning was. but that is, it definitely is captured and it was the thing that stuck out to me when I, you know, just. Firing up the game for the first time. I'm just like, man, this soundtrack [00:13:00] is, has such a character of its own. And I feel like there's, you know, I can point to a handful of pieces of media that really have that element of the soundtrack is a character, like something like Sure Noble or something like Darkest Dungeon where it feels like such a presence.

yeah, beautifully captured. agree with you there completely. so many layers. that was the thing that stood out to me as intricately assembled, and so many different things going on, and it just blended with the art style and everything so well, it's beautiful chefs.

Chris Bourassa: some great synergy there and there's a lot of technical achievement that goes into it too because, everything is delivered as separate stems and then assembled. By our audio engineers. we want you to be able to drop into a fight, at different points in the track so that it doesn't feel like being at the same part of the song.

he has time changes, all within the same kind of combat track. the level of technical expertise that goes into making sure that, you're always coming in at the right [00:14:00] time. the appropriate stems are fired or muted, is pretty acceptable.

Power up audio, does all of our audio engineering, all of our sound effects, and they work closely with Stewart on the implementation side, which is

experience of the music is. Mm-hmm.

Brian Prime: Are you still there? 

Chris Bourassa: I, 

Brian Prime: I don't know Yeah. Oh really? You hear? Yeah, I can hear you now. you cut out for just a second. Okay. Sorry about that. You were talking about, but yeah, that I was unaware like that is crazy. Like so all the stems and everything like that makes it that much more impressive.

'cause I was curious as to like, You know, the, the pause and like, oh, this action is happening. It's the way everything flows together. And nonetheless, the sound effects and sound design just mashes so well, yeah. Hats off to everybody who works in the audio department for sure. [00:15:00] 

Chris Bourassa: Yeah, they're pretty incredible.

We got a couple of like, studio favorite sound effects too. That big bulging gaze from, from the first game gets referenced all the time, because it's just so crazy. Mm-hmm. Yeah, It's fun when people are all kind of pulling in the same direction and excited about their contributions to the bigger picture.

I think that's where you get the real magic. 

Brian Prime: Yeah, agree. And, I do think it is important to have somebody who's, like you said, regarding Stewart and his, contributions to the soundtrack, working with someone who has. a fire and a passion for what they're doing and like their own, they bring their own expertise and excellence to it.

It definitely has, in my own experience, made me up my own game of like, okay, I better take this shit serious. It helps el elevate it a lot and I mean, I couldn't imagine having like a full team of people who are just all super fired up about what they're working on.

it must be pretty nice for you to like, go in and work with a team on a thing that you love. 

Chris Bourassa: Yeah. It's been [00:16:00] the, greatest, experience of my career. it was a lot of work. Just going from zero to to even darkest dungeon one early access.

Yeah. yeah. I used to have more hair and a little bit more optimism, but, it's been a really incredible journey it is not something that gets done by one person in isolation. it takes all that effort. It's pretty special. I'm very aware of how rare it is 

It's not something that we take for granted. That's for sure. 

Brian Prime: Yeah, that's excellent. I want to ask you this question. given that, you do seem to be in a good spot in your career and in your life.

Is there something you could point to that has, aided you along the way? Like a piece of device or a practice or something that you've done, just a subtle thing that has sort of helped elevate you to where you are? 

Chris Bourassa: I guess, I think there's two things that, I kind of keep top of mind even though maybe they're not particularly pleasant.

the first is like, I know a lot of people will reference, [00:17:00] Imposter syndrome. as a thing to be suffered from. I see it a lot on social media. I pulled off X in November 'cause I was like, enough's enough. you know, I saw it a bunch there. I've heard from people at conferences and, I heard it from students, I've seen it on Instagram and wherever else.

I got to a place with that where I'm like, you know what, that's the price of being creative. It's never gonna go anywhere. You can't defeat it and everyone has it. And so, it's just a, a, a fact of life, you know? And, I am not the best artist, you know.

I'm not the best artist in Vancouver. Nevermind. Like I'm probably not the best artist in my neighborhood. I'm fine, you know? Sure. I work hard. but I am, not the best. And I have been, hit by those thoughts middle of the night while I'm working and, you know, this is gonna be terrible, blah, blah, blah.

It's just noise. It's just noise that your brain makes because you're being creative. It, it just, it's just the pollution of running your creative engine. It's just the [00:18:00] exhaust. when I see people kind of invoke it as a reason why it's so hard. to, to be creative, to write, to paint, to draw, to, play music.

it should be hard. I don't know. When we collectively decided that a creative endeavor should, quote unquote, be easy. it shouldn't, it's hard. It's very hard. and a part of the thing that makes it difficult and challenging is the running diary narrative of your own mind.

Trying to tell you that you're not good enough to do the thing that you're quite literally doing at that moment. So I think giving it no mind or giving it no, power and just accepting that it's just kind of like the noise, in the background I think is really important. And, you know, I do that regularly.

if I feel myself going there, I'm just like, okay. It's just the sound the car makes, it's not worth really investing in. The other thing that I've kind of come to learn is a very popular saying of, do you have what it takes? Right? Do you have what it takes to start a business, what it takes to be a father?

Do you have what [00:19:00] it takes? You know, all these things, sure. What it takes. but nobody really reflects on what that means, or at least I haven't heard it framed as a. It is taken from you, like a piece of you has to die to make something. And I'm not trying to be overly morbid.

I'm playing to type here or I'm on brand, with Jarus Dungeon. But, you have to sacrifice in order to. Pursue something like this. when we started the company, I was working 30 hours a week freelancing and then 45 hours a week on darkest dungeon.

'cause I had to pay bills and had a very young, child and a mortgage. and so what did it take for me? It took sleep, it took my social life. you know, these are things that had to be burnt at the altar, essentially. and that was the bargain that I made. I had to kind of stick that through.

but there's always like a, you can't have it all, you know? And so I just said, okay, for a couple years, this is all I'm gonna do. This is it. and I paid a price physically, like I was outta shape, you know? but [00:20:00] once things had some. Wind behind them. I was able to make some kind of corrections, but make no mistake that, I guess it kind of is maybe just a different framing of like the first thing.

But, just any pursuit worth doing is going to rob you of something, whether it's like pleasure or sleep or diversion or The ability to play games or hobbies or recreation. You know, it made a lot of distance between my wife and I, And that had to be, you know, there was a reckoning there that had to come to, I wouldn't change it though. And, I think just being aware that, you will be paying a price, like if you want your podcast or whatever it is to be top of mind or best in class, that's your life.

That's what it has to be. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. Absolutely agreed. that has been, a sort of sentiment 

Chris Bourassa: goal either, right? Sure. it starts with an intention, I suppose. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. I have heard that sentiment expressed before and I do tend to agree with it that to make something great, you do have to suffer a bit to make it so, and, I think that's true [00:21:00] of a lot of creatives, kind of like you said of 

Being kind of tortured inside a little bit by self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy or whatever they may be. but you do it anyway. you do it scared, like, oh, I'm nervous to do this thing. Well, who cares? you do it anyway because it, yeah, 

Chris Bourassa: you can't be brave unless you're afraid first, right?

Mm-hmm. That's the. You know, the trick is to not martyr yourself because no one suffers a martyr. So it's like you, you, you make the deal and then you kind of have to. Fortify yourself a little bit and get on with it because you can't nash your, your teeth and, and wring your hands and, and cry at the moon when you know you opted in.

Right? Like, just don't do it then like, yeah. Don't make the game if it, if it's this miserable, right? 

Brian Prime: Yeah, exactly. I'm glad that it is the thing that you've. Pulled yourself out of and sort of, you know, that that is not the careful balance you're trying to strike now. 'cause I don't know that that.

Is sustainable. I feel like you have to hit a point somewhere along the way of finding that magical spot where I [00:22:00] am working on my passion or I am pursuing my goal or my dream. While also finding a respite for yourself a little bit. I'm speaking in broad, vague terms here when it comes to, creative endeavors, but, I do find that to be.

True of a lot of the people that I've spoken with. 

Chris Bourassa: yeah, I don't know. I don't know that I've, I I did this like nirvana place where you're like doing great work, but also having a great time. I don't know. I don't know. I would sure that it sounds great. I try to measure it like based on, like peaks and valleys over the course of like, let's say a year, right?

Mm-hmm. Like, oh, January was not like a ton of. Fun if you're measuring fun, purely on like, you know, did I go out, did I go to shows? Did I, you know, go out on, on dates or whatever? Like I didn't, none of that. 'cause I was working a lot this January. 

Chris' Son: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Bourassa: but I did not work like that in February and I did more of that other stuff.

so I don't know that it happens like [00:23:00] simultaneously. But my goal is to basically accept that kind of, just like university, you chill for a bit, then you realize that paper is due, next week. So you start, you ramp up. There's gonna be some intense. couple evenings right before it's due, then it's finished and you're kind of home free.

I guess that's kind of how I have evolved the way I approach work. 'cause I like to be all consumed. I like to be in it. Mm-hmm. For a period of time while I'm effective. And then, you know, you gotta pull over and focus on some other things. But I don't know how to do it all at once. So if you can connect me with one of your other dads who's figured it out, that'd be fantastic.

Brian Prime: I is, the moment I find a guest, if you has figured it out, I will keep them to myself, because I, yeah. Well, you will have found a liar. Yeah. Probably 'cause that's not, I, I still operate very much like I'm still in college. A like, oh, important thing needs to be done. I will do it the week it needs to happen.

And, you know, that'll be fun. 

Chris Bourassa: And although the rising ground crew is all about like, you know, maximizing every minute, I just, I feel like art [00:24:00] and creativity are different, in that way sometimes. Sometimes it's just, it's kind of not there. Yeah. and, other times that's all that's there and you're just like stuffing your face with it.

Yeah. and so you kind of just have to, You can use your experience, your expertise to get the most out of yourself, even when it's not totally firing for you. 

Chris' Son: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Bourassa: and you can be wise enough to not go off the deep end, when you have an abundance of it. Mm-hmm. But it will always be, I think, a peaks and valleys game. Yeah. Is my sense. I mean, I've been doing this for almost. 30 years, and I haven't seen any evidence that it's gonna change, but 

Brian Prime: yeah. it does feel like a thing that while it is hot and while inspiration is within you, that is when you should work, like put in the extra hour or whatever.

Inspiration is just like, what a gift, 

Chris Bourassa: right? 

Brian Prime: Yes. What a 

Chris Bourassa: gift. Not everybody gets inspired. I feel like the best way you can honor that Is to really fully embrace it. Now, that's not me saying everybody should crunch and work over time, which is the sort of, you know, sure. [00:25:00] Popular, implication of a line like that coming from the head of Activision.

I don't even know who the head of Activision is. Yes. I don't use this to marshal my team. this is, I'm just talking purely personally myself. You know, and I take responsibility for my own behavior. when it comes to the team, we try to be much more tactical.

Make sure everybody's in good shape. it's not about, doing a death march ever. 

Brian Prime: Yeah, that's good. That is a good thing. I mean, head of Activision Companies like that, that just don't give a shit about people and are just grinding them to pulp to make profit is, not the greatest of things in the world.

But you know, at least there are studios out there like Red Hook, who are, making things to make things for the sake of making things, I guess. 

Chris Bourassa: well, I mean, we wanna make money. yeah, I think we're trying to be like a sustainable, ethical farm, you know?

Mm-hmm. But we're still trying to sell our food at the grocery store. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. that's the ultimate goal. Still sell the food, but, you know, ethically sourced. so aside from Darkest Dungeon, aside from Red Hook and your [00:26:00] art, what are sort of the other components in your life 

That you've found give you a lot of purpose and satisfaction and meaning. I mean, you mentioned being a dad. that must come with some stresses I would imagine. but along with some victories and some good feelings. 

Chris Bourassa: it's a lot of work, you know. Love my kids. do I want to get up at five so I can make the seven o'clock hockey game out in the neighboring town? no. The answer is no. I don't want to, but I do it. my wife does it sometimes too, Parenthood is kind of a whole different animal in and of itself where, there's definitely like.

Beautiful moments that are almost impossible to describe. And, just a deluge of exhaustion and misery that is very easy to describe. So oftentimes, you know, the takeaway is like, wow, it sucks to be a parent. but it doesn't entirely suck, obviously, or no one would do it. Gotcha. I like going to the gym.

it's kind of nice not to Have a screen, in front of me and yeah, like going hikes and nature, a lot. Yeah. [00:27:00] anything that kind of turns the brain off. 'cause I feel like that's where I get rest for the next kind of, or, and sometimes a different perspective on a creative problem is when you just not looking at it or thinking about it at all.

You know, you can spend so much time kind of in your head. It's not gonna get in your body a little bit. 

Chris' Son: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Bourassa: Not to sound too new, agey, which I'm not at all I own no crystals. There's no lavender in my office at all. but just bringing your awareness straight into your body, getting exercise, being outside, being in nature, going for bike rides, something, anything.

where you're not just trying to beat your face off of a creative problem, be it like writing or art or game designer or whatever. Mm-hmm. is, is really rejuvenating, for sure. 

Brian Prime: Yeah, I agree. it's nice to get away from, 'cause after sitting at a computer for so long, working on a thing, you feel like it is reality.

You feel like it's your whole world. And being able to get away from that is, I think it's important. for anybody, no matter what they're doing. we live so much of our lives online anymore. not to sound like it's old man shouting at clouds, but 

Chris Bourassa: [00:28:00] Yeah, totally. It's a mess, but, yeah.

I was only recently exposed to, well, not recently, a couple years ago, we had, a case of Discord drama. It was like, what? people who've never met are mad at each other because someone types, like, obviously it can be horrible. but at first blush you're like, how is this even, just go outside, you know?

it's an interesting situation. 

Brian Prime: Certainly, you mentioned, going out to shows from time to time. what's the last concert you went and saw that just really blew you away, like knocked your socks off? 

Chris Bourassa: the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra will play the soundtrack to a movie while the movie's playing.

Chris' Son: Oh shit. 

Chris Bourassa: this is like a regular thing that they do and I've seen a bunch of them, the opening. The opening kind of fanfare for returning the Jedi just straight up made me cry. just immediately, as soon as the text crawl came on, I was like, oh my God. I remember being a child. the Skyfall, performance [00:29:00] was incredible.

so I've been to quite a few of those and they're always awesome. I'm gonna see magic sword in, I think this weekend and they're like kind of this weird like synth guitar eighties thing. No vocals. they're pretty awesome. Pretty excited for that. 

Brian Prime: I have seen, I've not seen them live, but I've know that they toured with, I meant to, 'cause they were on tour with Dance With the Dead for a while.

Chris Bourassa: Yeah, that's right. They've done a couple collaborations with Dance With the Dead. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. 

Chris Bourassa: Which I like Dance With the Dead, but they're kind of like Rob Zombies drummer, like it's, everything is so like, beat heavy in your face. That's their style. It's cool. but Magic Sword kind of, I feel like has. Bit of a bigger range.

Mm-hmm. I'm, you know, based on what I've heard, subjective. Sure. but yeah, big, big fan of that and, I don't know. My tastes are kind of all over the place. 

Brian Prime: I find that, I think that in my experience of meeting people who are into art or into music or into whatever they're into, genre doesn't matter much.

People are just sort of into whatever they're [00:30:00] into, regardless of what it might be. it's very rare for me to meet somebody who's like, I only listen to. On Holy Norwegian sea metal only, or whatever. right. You know, whatever particular specialized genre they have. it's usually a lot of people who are just like, oh, I love this thing and I love that thing, and they just love it.

So yeah, that kind of makes sense. Checks out. 

Chris Bourassa: don't, I don't like the to be limited, you know? Mm-hmm. I've never found country music particularly appealing, I will say that. But, yeah, I don't, I don't have any real rules for myself. It's the same with art. Like I can, like, you know. Anime and Monet in the same breath.

Yeah. I just, I think it's kind of crazy to, to, even if it's totally not entirely your thing, there's gotta be something of value or some kind of perspective or. Insight that you can get from, from a piece of work. 

Brian Prime: Absolutely. And I'm such a sucker for live music too, that like, even if it's a band that maybe I don't care about, but like if they're playing live, I'll probably go watch and [00:31:00] have a pretty good time.

live music is fun and can expand your horizons a little, I think, to appreciate for sure. 

Chris Bourassa: I saw Bruce Springsteen before Christmas. And isn't he like 80? He's like 75. He played for like three and a half hours. Like by the end of it, my wife and I were like, it's a little too much.

Bruce Brite. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. I saw, but it was amazing. Yeah, I'm sure I've heard that before actually from other people who were like, ah, spring scene's amazing. I saw Crazy Iron Maiden a few years ago, and Bruce Dicken, just like, he had more energy on that stage than I have on my best days.

I just was like, man, he's just all over the stage and just what an incredible performance. 

Chris Bourassa: time. Right? Yeah. I guess that's the thing is like if, when they're enjoying it, You enjoy it more, which, is why, we wanted to make changes for dark ast Dun too.

We wanted to enjoy making it, we wanted to have some fresh challenges and we felt like if we enjoyed making it, it would be a more enjoyable game. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. I have been enjoying it immensely 

Chris Bourassa: there's a lot of debate around, whether or not we should have made changes and stuff, but I 

Brian Prime: don't know.

Chris Bourassa: I stand by them. 

Brian Prime: I do tend to [00:32:00] agree just because I liked it for that reason because it was not the same thing. it was similar enough, but a new coat of paint, a new way to experience it. And, yeah, that was the goal. It felt like a remix, a good. So, mm-hmm.

Good stuff. well, I don't want to keep you too long. I will go ahead and put the last question to the podcast to you, which is just, what is something that you have been enjoying recently, and your answer can be anything, book, movie, TV show, just what's something that you are jazzed about when you wake up?



Chris Bourassa: well, you opened by kindly referring to our game as a. Comfort game for you, so 

Chris' Son: mm-hmm. 

Chris Bourassa: Maybe it's fitting. Heim is my comfort game. mm-hmm. It's a kind of a strange pixelated, but 3D art style, Viking. Survival kind of crafting game. And I'm normally not into those games, but the building in it is really soothing.

So when Russia invaded Ukraine, I built this gigantic tower which try and like put my head [00:33:00] in the sand a little bit. Yeah. And cope with the news. And then, not to get political, but there's been a lot of cross border talk recently, and I found this appetite for like, oh, I should get back into Val.

Completely unrelated. Like, I hadn't connected the dots. Yeah. And I was like, you know, it's been, it's been a long time since I played Val. I should, I should probably get out, see what they added. And then I realized, oh, I just wanna build like another crazy building, you know, to kind of, get away from the horrors of, 

News cycle. but that, that game I keep coming back to. And right now I'm, I'm pretty hot on it. I just like going in, I turn on a bunch of cheat codes and then I just build shit. Mm-hmm. And, it's kind of, it's very, very relaxing. I'll put on like a lo-fi music or sometimes even like a podcast or something, and then I'm just like, I'm gonna build a Viking house that sticks off the side of a mountain and then, you know, just figure it out from there.

So I've been enjoying that. And building, Gundams. 

Brian Prime: Gotcha. Yeah, I heard you mention that in a previous interview being like, into building gundams and such. 

Chris Bourassa: So that was my pandemic [00:34:00] coping. I didn't do any sourdough, I didn't do any yoga. I just built like, I think by the end of the two year, you know, lockdown type phase.

I think I had done something like 217 gundams. It was like too much. Damn. 

Brian Prime: That's a lot. 

Chris Bourassa: no regrets. 

Brian Prime: speaking of comfort games, I have, I always answer the question myself, but speaking of comfort games and things that I'd go back to often, aside from Dark Head dungeon, of course, no Man's Sky is just scratches that itch for like, I want to.

Build a thing or I want to have a relaxing kind of experience and see the stars. it has all these great moments of, all these wonderful sound cues set up on it that with like this fantastic sort of postmodern rock electronic kind of a score that just, it is so touching and so heartfelt.

Just, the music in the game and the color palette, it's so. Relaxing to put your feet up and play this kind of ray punky experience with these very loose [00:35:00] threads of narrative throughout it that ask big questions about existence and, 

Chris Bourassa: which sci-fi, that's sci-fi whole job, in my opinion.

And what a story of like. Being, you know, kind of oversold by Sony. Having this huge blowback on launch, this tiny little indie team. And then what did they do? They just stuck with it for like nine years. Update after update, after update. 

Chris' Son: Mm-hmm. 

Chris Bourassa: despite all of the online outrage and hate and everything.

They just passed, like mostly positive on their steam reviews, which for anybody who might hear this, who doesn't understand, it's a big deal because STEAM is the primary storefront for games, and your user review score is really important there. And so, it's just kind of a triumph of stick with itness a little bit.

I'm in awe of that team. I think it's really impressive that they managed to keep their wits about them. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. Agree. It went from being a thing that no one was recommending to anybody, to a thing that I, you know, I'll run my mouth about it to anybody of like, you should play this.

It is fun. It is [00:36:00] a thing that is pleasant to experience. And really, I'm really glad that things turned around for the company that was making it, hello Games, I think is the name. Yeah. 

Chris Bourassa: maybe I'll dump Heim for no man's sky. 

Brian Prime: Oh yeah, yeah. We'll see how that goes. The world is sort of falling apart right now. It is kind of a shame that we're trying to like live out our dreams and everything while, you know, while that we have the backdrop of a dystopian nightmare sort of on setting. 

Chris Bourassa: you know, 

Brian Prime: fine. 

Chris Bourassa: I vacillate between, catastrophizing and then being like, look, in the eighties they had like nuclear terror, so Yeah.

You know, it probably didn't feel great then either. 

Brian Prime: yeah. 

Chris Bourassa: still works. 

Brian Prime: that's, yeah, I've still got running water. 

Chris Bourassa: I'm trying to concentrate on, what I can control. Right. 

Brian Prime: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Within the realm of my control is what I'll worry about for now.

I'll fight fascism tomorrow. 

Chris Bourassa: I think all the stoicism like books are flying off the shelves right now. 

Brian Prime: Yeah. 

Chris Bourassa: Yeah. 

Brian Prime: Alright, that is it. thank you again so much for your time and [00:37:00] for having a chat. this has been wonderful. I am very grateful. I will go ahead and let you go.

Thank you again so much for your time and for the chat and, I look forward to the next thing that you end up making and, I'm, look forward to putting more hours into, into darkest dungeon. thank you so much. 

Chris Bourassa: Oh, thank you for the opportunity to chat. Thanks for reaching out and, yeah, I appreciate your time too.

Brian Prime: Yeah, thanks so much. it means a lot to me. It really does. And, I've been wanting to take the show in new directions and, this was a fantastic first step. So thank you so much. I will let you know when this, gets ready to come out. It'll be sometime in the next month or so. I got some cross promotion festival episodes to get out, 

Yeah. thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I will let you go and get on with your evening. I'll be in touch when this is ready to go live Thank you again. 

Chris Bourassa: Okay, great to meet you Brian. 

Brian Prime: Alright. Cheers.