Beyond Debate: Building Bridges Through Free Expression

Discover how CofC students are leading a movement for civil discourse. Hear their strategies for navigating tough conversations and why empathy is the key to bridging divides.

Does pineapple belong on pizza? 

It’s an easy yes or no question for most. It’s an easier question to answer then one about politics or religion and it’s the kind of question that the Civility Initiative Free Expression Fellows call “low stakes.” 

Resources from this episode:

Want to join the conversation? Follow the Civility Initiative on Instagram at @cofc_civility or visit the Civility Initiative webpage for upcoming events.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to speaking of College of Charleston. I'm Amy Stockwell from University Communications, and on today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's both timely and timeless, how we listen and talk to one another. I'm joined by students from the civility initiatives. Free Expression Fellows program, a group dedicated to fostering respectful dialogue and open dialogue on campus.

These students are helping lead the way in creating spaces where disagreement doesn't mean division, and where curiosity, empathy, and understanding take center stage. So welcome. Thank you all for being here. Let's, um, go around in a circle and have everybody introduce yourselves. We start with you, Maddie.

 I am Maddie Johnson. I am a senior from Vermont, and I am a political science major with a sociology and women and gender studies minor. 

Hi, my name is Lulu McDowell. [00:01:00] I am a senior here at the college, and I'm a political science major with a concentration in politics, philosophy, and law. 

 Hi, I'm Allie Johnson.

I'm a. Sophomore here at the college, I'm a political science major with a concentration in politics, philosophy, and law, and a minor in crime, law, and society. 

Great. Thank you all for being here. Um, so let's start with the basics. What drew you for, for listeners who might not know? Much, if anything, about civility initiative.

What drew you to the initiative and the Free Expression Fellows program? Um, and what is, what is being a free expression fellow mean? Exactly. 

For sure. So, um, actually this program kind of started from a simple conversation. Me and a couple other people from Student Government Association listened to Michael Lee talk about the civility initiative itself.

 And being able to disagree across, uh, differing beliefs. And then we were like, we wanna get students involved. So that what drew us to the program. We wanted us to actually make change on the student level and not just [00:02:00] faculty and not just, you know, the overarching of the college, but actually students interacting with other students.

So this year long fellowship is gonna be a great program, even moving forward. So right now, I know we're doing some training and some meetings right now getting set up for next semester, but I know we have a lot of events. Plan for next semester if someone else wants to talk about 

that. And just, well to interrupt for a second.

Yeah. You said student government. You're on student government. Yeah. You're part of that? I 

am. I was a freshman senator last year, and this year I'm a sophomore senator and the communications director. Okay. Thank you. 

Yeah. So, um, Lulu or Maddie, maybe you can tell us about some of the, um, what, what, yeah.

Some of the events that are coming in the spring. 

Yeah, of course. So we have kind of divided them into three categories, so to say. So we have our low stakes, our medium stakes, and our high stakes. Um, so for our low stakes, this would include tabling, um, and just inviting students in to, um, have some sort of discussion.

And it doesn't necessarily need to be about a divisive topic, but just get that [00:03:00] conversation going. Um, and for our medium stakes, that is, uh, more focusing on facilitating discussions with people that have opposing views from your own and teaching the, uh, skills that are necessary to have a healthy debate and not, and still be respectful to the other person.

And if you wanna talk about the high stakes. 

Yeah. And then our high stakes events are going to be. Uh, more events that you could say, uh, you have to put yourself out there a little bit more. So the first thing we've talked a lot about is like, debate a professor. Mm-hmm. So we have a professor who maybe has a table or maybe it's an event in like a big, uh, performance hall and we pick topics.

And so it's, it's more of a public event where there's more people and there's a little bit more at stake, per se. That is just meant to get students out and to have these conversations. We've talked about a lot of different examples of this. It's maybe it's us sitting somewhere and we have a board with a question or a statement and we say, let's talk about it, [00:04:00] let's debate about it.

So that's, those are kind of more high stakes events that we're gonna have later on, uh, next semester that are gonna kind of encourage, once we've done the more low and medium stakes students to really come out and engage and get excited and learn. Having learned those skills, be able to learn or use what they've learned in these events.

exactly, that's brilliant. So like to create a picture in my head, um, a tabling event just for people who maybe don't know what that would look like, that's just literally tables set up on campus with flyers or mm-hmm. A couple of you sitting there. Telling people about the fellowship program and then, um, discussions, facilitating discussions with people of opposing views.

Like what does that look like? How would you even make that happen? 

Yeah. That's the million dollar question, 

right? Um, so something we actually talked about in our meeting right before this, we were talking about with low sticks and tabling, how. Every single event and the stake for the [00:05:00] event matters on the topic.

So tabling can be low, medium, or high stakes, but what we are focusing on with the low stake events is maybe having, like, does pineapple belong on pizza? That's the hot take. Mm-hmm. And having people just come up, maybe just be like, oh, this is not good. And then also getting information about the program.

While these medium stake events could be these professor. Conversations, like something we've talked about is having two professor debates, one being more of like a conversation where they can walk around to a table, maybe a, a question that caters more to the, um, area of study the professor comes from.

So I prefer chemistry over biology, something like that. Or even talking about like. Does pineapple belong on pizza? Mm-hmm. And letting students actually, you know, maybe get a slice of pizza on the way in and then have these conversations. Yeah. Versus these like, you know, when we change those kind of discussions and debates into a high stake event, it's those hot topics, it's the, you know, maybe we have different student organizations with different beliefs up there.

You know, have a structured debate. And I think that's really what changes the state. That's the point's a great point, right? Yeah. 

Is the topic itself. Yes. Yeah, that's a great [00:06:00] point. Thank you for explaining that. Mm-hmm. And so this semester. There are 10 of you correct? 10 students as part of the fellowship?

Yes. I think nine or 10. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, and, and so this whole fall, you have been and continue to be having classes with Professor Lee and, and learning about. The skills, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then, and then, so spring semester is like putting everything into action. Mm-hmm. Yes ma'am. Yes. Yeah.

Implementation of the skills that we've learned. Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Um, okay. So let's dive into to, um, you know, exactly some more details, I guess, in, in your experience, what's the difference between a productive disagreement and a destructive one? And how do you navigate that line? Um, in class discussions or with friends and family?

This is something we've been talking a lot about in our training and also just when we come together and we've done some really [00:07:00] wonderful trainings that have really been people centric in terms of sitting down, listening, understanding, experiences, and I think that's what makes. Debate, either productive or uh, destructive.

And that's a very fine line and that can be really hard to understand. And that's why I love the training that we've gotten because we are learning where that line is, how to find it and what to do when maybe we cross that line. And so, uh, effective debate is gonna have a reliance on experiences of the person who you're having a conversation with, trying to understand them one-on-one.

So maybe you start the conversation with, does pineapple belong on pizza? Mm-hmm. And then you get to those higher stakes questions, but you don't start at that high stake. Right. You know, it's like jumping into the freezing cold water without waiting in first. So it's finding that, um, starting point with experience and perspective, being honest and open, asking questions, and also being open to maybe changing your mind.

Maybe you don't change your mind and that's okay too, but being open to that. I think being in kind, being kind is really [00:08:00] important. And we've talked a lot about open-ended questions, so asking why do you feel that way? Mm-hmm. What has happened in your life? What are your experiences to make you feel that way?

Because a destructive debate is going to ignore the humanity of the person you're debating as well as a. The other person ignoring your humanity. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of the beliefs we have are centered in our experiences and our life experiences and who we are fundamentally as humans. So that's what makes debate so tricky.

Mm-hmm. Because it's personal. It's always personal. Even if it's pineapple on pizza, someone might have a personal antidote about that. And so that understanding the humanity of the other person and acknowledging that and trying to understand that, I think is so crucial. And that's. That's the difference between destructive and productive debate.

And so I think, like I've kind of said, you navigate that line by creating a baseline, asking questions, being open and trying to understand the person who you are sitting across from. And do you guys 

talk in class at all about, um, like [00:09:00] my mom is a therapist, so just like things like. In a conversation when it starts to get heated, I'm thinking about Thanksgiving is coming soon.

Yeah. Yeah. People are gonna be Christmas. Yeah. Sitting down at the table for sure. With people with opposing views and like, I think logically in our heads, we can know how to have a debate with somebody with different views. But when you're in the moment and you're having a conversation and if you start to feel threatened or.

Or, or like you're, you're not being heard. Like, do you guys talk about that at all in class? About, about taking a breath? Yeah. Or like, like 

Um, ways to navigate once it does reach kind of a boiling point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's those like animalistic responses mm-hmm. Of Right. The fight flight, uh, yeah.

Freeze fawn. Freeze. Right. Freeze fawn. Yeah. Yeah. And we've talked about that. And Professor Lee, like he has that in his presentations when he's giving his presentation. I think that's super important because [00:10:00] we all, I dunno, I'm very non-confrontational, so I'm kind of the person who fa like will Fawn and too phrase me too.

Uh, but I'm also very, um, I will hold firm in my beliefs and I'm not afraid to kind of talk about them and have those conversations. So I think we have talked about that and, um. That's important too, right? 'cause we are trying to be models so we hold ourselves accountable. Mm-hmm. And that is hard. I mean, we are 20, right?

We're early 20 year olds. You're babies. You know, like I, I feel old as a senior. Like when I, when I'm talking to Hallie, I'm like, oh my gosh, you baby. Like, we're only two years like you. I'm not that much older than you. But we also, there's a lot of emotional regulation that comes with what we're doing in learning these interpersonal skills for ourselves as well.

And something I wanna say to that too is we did, there's a training that exists that we're trying to get like the, as a pilot program out called the Perspectives Training. Oh. And actually when I did it, I did it last semester to kind of gauge if this would be helpful or not. And I think it actually gives you scenarios like, you know, someone's, it does.

Mm-hmm. If someone's shouting at you, like how do you respond to that? And sometimes. That's the great thing about [00:11:00] learning our specific skills. It's not just okay in every situation, this is how we handle it, but like sometimes it's just, hey, like this conversation can't continue. And being humble and like, okay, this person's not gonna have this conversation.

And it's okay to walk away. Mm-hmm. And that's the hard thing is, you know, we want to facilitate and we want people to engage, but sometimes being humble and walking away, we'll teach them more than trying to get to Agreed. An understanding and that's why agreeing to disagree and when we choose to disagree, 'cause that's normally, you know, the route we're taking.

I think that's why it's so important. 

That's a great point. Well said. Um, and that kind of gets segues into what we're gonna the next question, which is, um, what's more important in a conversation, facts or personal experience? 

This, uh, perfectly bounces off of both what Allie mm-hmm. And Maddie are saying.

Um, I. Think that experiences are just so important. That is the basis for, you know, why you believe the things that you do. Um, I am very strong with my beliefs, um, and I'm very prideful. I'm very proud [00:12:00] of how much I believe in my beliefs. I'm sorry, that wording does not make sense. Um. Uh, but one example I can think of is I was recently catching up with a friend who is currently in the military.

He has an extensive, uh, background in his family in military. So we have very opposing beliefs on a lot of, uh, major issues today, but we were still able to have a healthy conversation and, you know, greet each other with, with respect and still remain respectful while we're. Discussing things that, you know, could negatively impact me or him.

Um, and so I think it's just really important to always remember that they're experiencing experiences that underlie someone's belief no matter what that belief may be. Mm-hmm. 

So facts being less important. Mm-hmm. And trying to get to know why, why the person thinks the way that they do where Exactly.

And I think also when you are in the heat of a moment in the debate and you're going back and forth and you know, the tensions are starting to rise. You might not be able to [00:13:00] clearly hear the facts and accept them and be able to like, pivot, pivot with that information. Mm-hmm. Um, I think if you human help humanize each other and rely on those experiences, that is how you can find the common ground and have a productive dialogue and debate with each other.

There's, I am convinced that there ha you ha, there has to be some source of common ground, whether it's just mm-hmm. I agree that you both like coffee, you know, or that you know, or that you, you, you know, you both, um, love playing tennis or, so I feel like if we try to find those connections that, that, that they exist.

You just have to. Stretch a little bit to, to find them. I, if you can start, hold onto that common ground. Um, okay. So next, what advice would you give you guys have learned so much already. Um, and, and you, this is the inaugural. Um, year of this program. Yes. And it will continue on after you all leave. So [00:14:00] what, what advice would you give, um, not necessarily to to future students in the fellowship program, but just to incoming students who are nervous about speaking up in, in a class or in a club or on social media when their views.

You know when their views might not be when well received. 

Mm-hmm. This is my favorite question. This is something that I talk about a lot because in my opinion, do it because you know when it feels as if there's an overwhelming opinion on something. If everyone in the room believe. That blue is the color of the sky, but you think it's purple and you see purple.

How is there going to be any form of dialogue or disagreement if you don't speak up? If there's only ever one belief or viewpoint, if there's only ever one perspective or one you know, constructive, this is what we're coming to. Without you speaking up in that difference of opinion, then there is there.

Then we don't get to do what we get [00:15:00] to do. I think the reason we do our work is so these students can speak up. I know in my personal experience, I've been in that position feeling as if I can't while like sitting in a classroom. And being like, I, I don't want to answer this question, the professor's asking, and that's a hard place to be in.

But just because you feel nervous or even if you're in a club, something, if it's something you're passionate about and something you have an opinion about, speak up because you can even be the change and creating that discourse and facilitating and. You know, I think one of the greatest things is being around challenging beliefs.

Um, I actually grew up in an area that didn't have a lot of that, but my friends did. My friends were very different than me, so I had to seek that out. So if you're choosing to come here, whether, you know, you just like the school, whether you just like, and then you realize, oh, well maybe in this specific area, like I, I wasn't.

Prepared for this, or maybe this is something I don't talk about. Maybe politics is something I don't talk about, but if it's anything you should speak up. I think [00:16:00] that's the greatest thing. And what we get to watch is hopefully this change actually promotes more dialogue and discussion and more students involved.

'cause there is just 10 of us right now, but you know, we're hoping maybe this could. Bleed into the student organization level, this could bleed into more students being added to the program. I think it's just beautiful to talk about what happens if you don't speak up. That's the scary thing. Mm-hmm. Not more people speaking up.

So I think do it is always my 

answer. And it doesn't, it make it more interesting too. Just, I love your, your anecdote about the color of the sky. You know, like I would love to be around. People who think the sky is purple. You know, like, exactly. Tell me, we should be sticking. Tell me more. Yeah, I totally agree.

We, it's boring when we all have the exact same experience, the exact same opinions on things, right? Well, there's 

no like intellectual stimulation. Yeah. Like challenge, you know, like I, I am much of the same way I. I seek out kind of opposing point of views. 'cause I do want to sit across the table and [00:17:00] ask why do you feel that way?

Mm-hmm. What, what experiences in life have shaped how you feel? So, I totally agree. I think that saying something is 100% the right thing to do and that's brave and that's courageous and I understand if people are hesitant to do that. Again, mirroring what Ali said. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to give students this space to have these conversations that are not hard.

We understand that. We know these are not hard conversations and we also understand that like as 20 year olds in college, we are, you know, doing something that's very unique. And we have all chosen to do this. So I think that, that if we can do it, anyone else can do it. And that's hopefully something that, you know, we can see.

I know like Lulu and I were graduating in May, but I'm really hoping that like Allie and all the other kind of younger fellowship students, that they can keep working on that. And we can see that in campus kind of, you know, as we come back and we get more years out, that's like, that's what I wanna leave this school.

And I think that's. Something I would feel really, really proud [00:18:00] leaving this school with. Mm-hmm. 

And I wanna add, if you're a student who wants to speak up in a situation where they feel, you know, uncomfortable doing so, I wanna remind them that everyone came to college to learn and you can't learn unless you were in an environment where you're hearing contrasting opinions and you have the ability.

To have that discussion on them. Um, and I believe it is a student's shared responsibility to be able to speak up but not shout those, um, differing opinions they may have. 

Yeah. You all are very impressive and admirable. And, and I think too, what's important is the work that you're doing. Like each, each, each exercise you do, each interaction you have with other students or with people from the community each time someone you know makes a small effort to talk about things that are.

Uh, challenging, you know, each time it gets easier. So you start with, like you say, the pineapple pizza question, [00:19:00] you start there, you know, and then next time you might feel a little bit more confident talking about something, you know, a little bit higher stakes, right? Um, so, uh, yeah, I'm really excited about the work you're doing on campus.

Um, so lastly what I want you all to talk about is it was very exciting. We had. PBS NewsHour on campus a couple weeks ago, um, which was a big deal. And, um, they came and wanted to tell a story, talk to you guys. And so they came on campus and interviewed you. And so I wanna hear, um, what it was like to be a part of that conversation.

How did it feel to represent the College of Charleston on the national, you know, on a national TV program? 

It was a big deal. It was, I mean, I. I was so proud of everyone. Like it was really so interesting for me to, you know, remember the Zoom meeting I had back in May, being [00:20:00] like, where is this going? And me and you know, professor Lee being like, where are we taking this?

And then it, going from that and just a few months and being on the national level was a beautiful thing to witness. And I think a lot of the conversations that came out of the podcast, not the podcast, excuse me, out of that news hour, like talking to Judy Woodruff, herself. Seeing that there was other people on the national level who even cared what we were doing.

Mm-hmm. And I think it was just a beautiful experience to even watch like our normal conversations we have in all of our meetings. Yeah. Being projected on that national level and actually, you know, for other people to see that, hey, this exists. Like, I feel like there's so many headlines and articles about how the divide is growing.

And even in the news segment, that was part of where the focus went is these debates we're watching and these influencers and some of that can get really overwhelming, but seeing that there's students and there's multiple of us and we're just having conversation and hanging out and really trying to understand each other, and I think that was just, I felt so proud of my school [00:21:00] because I know even a few months ago it was a little scary to think about.

If this kind of program would even flourish. Mm-hmm. And like it was, it was, there was a lot of pride for sure in my school and just in our program and being able to be like, we're trying to fix it so other people should too. 

And Lulu, I know you were sadly unable to be there for the filming, but Maddie, you were, I remember you were there and, yeah, yeah, yeah.

really cool. I agree. Uh, I think more, I was just really. Proud of us and what we've done and we've worked so hard and we, we, you know, when, when Professor Lee, you know, we met for the first time, he told us this is gonna be essentially another class on your schedule, you know? Mm-hmm. This is, you have homework.

Like this is a commitment. It's a commitment. You know, this is not like a, we meet once a week for an hour. This is a big thing and we worked really hard to get to this point, so I totally agree with Ali. Definitely felt more so just pride in us as a collective group. Um, and just being together and, [00:22:00] yeah, like Ally said, being able to show the world that this is what we do every other week.

You know, we sit down for an hour and we talk about these things and we are students, but we're also students who are trying to do something really productive for our school. And it was super cool. It was a little weird. I don't like. Think I'm, I don't know if I'll ever quite get used to like watching yourself on screen, but it was a really cool experience and it's fun to be able to walk outta college saying that that was something I got to be a part of.

So I was very appreciative of it and I was just really proud that we all got to sit in one room together and. Show the world what we do, 

and wouldn't it be fabulous if other people saw or seeing this and, and thinking, Hmm, maybe this is something we could get going in our university on our campus. You know?

actually, so two weeks after that, I attended a national, uh, dialogue convention at the University of Delaware, along with two other students. And that was the first time CFC had ever been there. 

and there I heard from big universities, little universities, but we were kind of like. A minority, [00:23:00] like our kind of school and the way our school functioned was very different from even the student panel that they had.

And we actually talked a lot about my, my group had free speech and that was really cool. 'cause we're free expression fellows. Yeah. But after that I was able, like, I felt like I could brag a little bit and being like. Hey, like we're trying, like, you know, we, we may have had not a history, good history of this in the past and I would say that we don't, and that's why this work is so important and moving forward and making change.

And so, but I was able to brag and be like, no, we're trying, like I come from a fellowship, I'm not just, you know, it's not just 'cause I know some students attended, like, just 'cause a professor recommended them, but it's like I represent a fellowship that's trying to fix the problem. Mm-hmm. Like, uh, I know we're thefts, but I like to call us fixers.

Like I know that's hard. But like, you know, we are, we are really the ones making the change and trying to inspire other people. So I think, I love that it's on the national level, but it's also important to focus on that like. Exactly what Maddie was saying. Mm-hmm. Like, we're doing this all the time. And you know, that's just a small snippet.

And I would encourage people who even saw that, or you know, I've talked to [00:24:00] family, friends, and whenever like, oh, we run national television, but come to our events next semester. Mm-hmm. Look at what we're doing. Follow us. Follow us. I mean, it's gonna keep changing and. I am again, really sad you guys are leaving us, but I think moving forward it's inspiring to know that like there's been people here at this school for four years that really just want this fix now, and they're still choosing to be a part of that.

So I'm just really excited and really proud. 

So to that point, that's a great way to talk about where people listening, where they can find out more information about the fellowship program and also events coming up. And what's the best place where can people find out more information about, about you all and the work you're doing.

Well, the Civility Initiative has an Instagram. Mm-hmm. Uh, so you can find us there and all of our events will be posted on Instagram. And then you can also check on the civility initiatives page on, uh, via the College of Charleston website. And also, I think, I don't wanna speak for you guys, but like. If any, we are always open to have these conversations.

Mm-hmm. And talk about it. So like my, [00:25:00] I agree. I like, I do carry some pride in knowing them a part of this organization. So we, I would always encourage students if they know who we are to ask us questions. So we're, you know, we're always at the events that we try to be if we can. So, but Instagram and then the webpage on the College of Charleston is the best pace to find, uh, find events.

And then if you see us like. Seriously come talk to us. We're nice and re gonna have mech. Yes, we're gonna have mer I was gonna say you need to walk around campus with shirt on all the time so people can find you. Hopefully the boots we, when we get 

ike outward facing, we're also gonna have merch and we're gonna have, this is.

I think the great thing about it's too, they're updating the civility initiative like the Via the Carl Charon with our names and stuff on them. Oh good. Come find us for us. Literally seek us out. Seek it out. And that's what I'll say about every opportunity. Always seek it out. 

And I'll make sure that we put all of this stuff in our show notes so people can find more information about you.

Thank you so much to our free expression fellows for joining us today and for the work they're doing to make the College of Charleston a place where dialogue can thrive even when we don't agree.

If you are a student interested in learning more about the civility initiative or wanting to know how to get involved in conversations around free expression, check out the resources linked in our show notes. [00:27:00] And as always, thanks to our listeners for tuning into speaking of College of Charleston. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share this episode with a friend.