Another Winning Book

Dr. Matt Fretwell is a global leader, trainer, and author with over 20 years of experience empowering organizations, denominations, and individuals through gospel-centered transformation and innovative leadership. He currently serves as the Spiritual Director in Residency at World Relief and is an adjunct professor at several institutions, including Regent University, where he received the Faculty Award of Excellence in Scholarship in 2022. Dr. Fretwell specializes in organizational growth, strategic partnerships, church planting, leadership development, and fostering multicultural engagement. His work spans the non-profit, academic, and business sectors, where he has consistently driven sustainable change, increased impact, and advanced cross-cultural initiatives. As an advocate for integral mission, multiplication, and spiritual formation, Dr. Fretwell has trained leaders across the globe, developed curriculum, and cultivated growth strategies for organizations with thousands of staff and volunteers. He is an author of over 12 publications, including the three volumes of Multiplying Jesus, Church Planting By Making Disciple-Makers, and a 2024 Lausanne IV Congress white paper contributor. Dr. Fretwell’s passion lies in equipping others to lead with authenticity, innovation, and a gospel-centered focus, making an impact in their communities and beyond.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Eight Principles Voices. Conversations with those who are making a difference. I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles. Now join me as I welcome this week's guest, as they invite us to come along on their journey. Welcome everyone. It's Larry Johnson, your host for Eight Principles Voices. And I'm delighted to have with me today Matthew Fretwell, who we've interviewed before, and I'm hopeful I'm going to be called a friend soon. Anyway, he's a delightful man with a vibrant personality and a strong, direct mission. I think that's a good way to describe you. Anyway, so and he has a new book out. We're going to get to that in a little bit. But um just a little a little bit of a rewind. Matthew works for World Relief, and he is the director of spiritual formation. And I understand he's going to be making a trip soon to, let's say, an area that isn't the safest in the world. And um, and he uh would, I'm sure, appreciate a prayer or a thought. Um, and as I've already done that. But um welcome, Matthew.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Yeah, thanks for having me again, Larry. This is great. Um, I love the first one, and I was hoping there would be a second.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Well, and I hope this was even better. All right. How you like that? So, anyway, uh let's get right into talking about your book. There's something else I want to talk to you about a little later, but right now, you know, first of all, give us the title.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Yeah, so it's called Cultural Bridges. Um, and then the subtitle is uh how adaptive ecclesiology and orthopathic alignment cultivate spirit um empowered movements. Sounds like bedtime reading, Matthew. Right. It's almost like you know how you have to almost uh put every kind of uh theological pinpoint in there, but the reality is what it really means is are we building bridges within within the community, or are we seeing where the spirit of God is building these bridges are already at work uh so that we can join him in that work? Um, and we do that by innovative, creative, imaginative, and um thought-provoking ways, uh, introspective, wanting to join the spirit. And we have plenty of biblical uh understanding and and references to why that's important, and even uh extra-biblical movements, movements of God that have that have happened, whether it be St. Patrick or under Mao Zhe Tung, or you know, there they're just um almost all the same characteristics occur. Uh, and so it was something important for me, not just as a practitioner, church planner, but as someone who teaches uh in the academic field church planning, but also as a director of spiritual formation, because I I think um one of the areas that has been neglected is is orthopathy. And so we can kind of discuss and and unpack that. But uh I think we would agree that orthodoxy, which is ortho meaning right. So uh right doctrines or right beliefs, we have those, which are the way we center within the gospel, not tertiary, but our centeredness in what we all believe to be true. And then orthopraxy, which is how we live that out, and then we have orthopathy, which is the right alignment with the Spirit of God um to produce fruitful behavior and actions. And um, when those three align, we'll have what I say, what I call missional alignment. And uh, it's not uh something new John Wesley uh taught about orthopathy, uh, because he just started asking questions like, hey, if if we have right doctrine and we do have right practices, shouldn't we have right spirit as well? And uh so I I I sort of uh explain some of that more throughout the book, but I think it's more of a practiced or practical methodology than it is uh an academic practice.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

So, what was the um motive for the book? And what I want you to do there is when did you first get the idea and how did it grow into a book?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Okay, because it is a work that took about four years to complete. It's definitely my tome. It's one of those books that I've been working on. And I had a lot of students over the years that would take my courses and I would teach this, and they would say, Where can we find this in print? And I would say, nowhere. Um, it just it doesn't, it didn't exist.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Take good notes.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah, and um, but it bothered me that it didn't exist. But then I met um uh I met a guy who then taught who really was uh sort of the formation on this, uh Michael Cooper, Dr. Cooper, he's just phenomenal at at um missional archaeology and branching the two. And and uh he addressed one time about a adaptive ecclesiology, and when he did, it was like a um a switch went off. And I thought that is the connection, that is what what orthopathic alignment wants to do, it wants to bridge the adaptive ecclesiology. Now that sounds um terrible, it sounds like yeah, the the big$20 words, right? Uh that are there. But if I'm just gonna unpack that, um for me, the book is is showing us how the spirit of God is at work. For instance, when Peter is um when he's sitting on the top of the Tanner's house, the spirit of God says to him, Peter, arise, kill, and eat. And he he obviously says, No, not not so, Lord. I've I've never done anything like that. I've never uh killed anything and eaten anything unclean. And then the spirit of the Lord says, There's someone at the door, I want you to go down and see them. So we know that the spirit is is at work building this bridge to Cornelius, who is a Roman centurion. Um, now he gets to the house and the centurion says, Okay, um, I saw this vision. He explains to him and he and he says, Now speak. And of course, Peter's probably a little bit bewildered, and he says, I didn't prepare a speech. I didn't know I was going to say anything, but now I see what God was doing. Or with Paul, right? Paul is in Acts 16, is on a missionary church planning journey to modern-day Turkey, which would be about Asia Minor. And I'm quite certain that Paul would have prayed and made plans and decided this was would have been on his uh about his second uh church planning journey. I I believe it's probably his third or fourth, but most scholars would say second. Anyway, it's he's not a novice. This is not his first, his first kind of rodeo. And on the way, the spirit of the Lord meets him and says, Wrong way. You need to go to Macedonia. Now, is it that Paul just didn't get it? Is that Paul what he was doing was incorrect? No, I I think this is what we're talking about with the orthopathic alignment, is the right alignment with the spirit, where the spirit is creating this cultural bridge for us. And we're under we're seeing, we're hearing, we're communicating, not with not just with the spirit, but with culture to understand its hurts, its pains, its idolatries, so that we can engage in these gospel conversations with them. And so Paul reroutes, he reroutes and changes, but not right away. At first, he says no, then the Lord reminds him again, and he says no. And then he has a dream.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

And he says Paul was never overly cooperative. He was sort of uh had his he was had his own ideas about things, but so did Peter, right? Well, yes, let's rewind a minute though. Yeah, uh, when you started to write this book, did you have an audience in mind?

SPEAKER_02 8:39

You know, it's my heart and passion. Obviously. Yeah. Why while I think that it can be viewed as academic, when I'm in my Bible study with just regular guys, like tomorrow morning, Friday morning, when I go to do the do my my normal with just some everyday regular guys, um, I talk to them about this. Like this, this is how passionate I feel like every person should understand the value of these things and how they connect. For instance, so it's your passion. It's your love.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

That's what you're telling me.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

It is because if we don't, this is a part of one of the chapters that I have. Theology drives mystiology, right? And that all that means is our understanding of God propels our the mission that we fulfill, God's mission. And when it's skewed, when it's distorted, uh the mission of God is distorted. So I I tend to say the missio trinitas so that people understand that the mission of God has always been a trinitarian movement. And the Bible itself is not disconnected, but it's a meta-narrative, a grand narrative story. It starts, right, starts with a garden, ends with a city, starts with a serpent, ends with a dragon. And throughout that, we see right in the very beginning, the Trinitarian, let us make man in our image and in our likeness. Then the cultural mandate is given be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth. So we know that the Trinity has uh compelled and commanded humanity to fill the entire earth. That's how big the Garden of Eden would have become, the entire earth, if they had fulfilled what they were supposed to do. But they don't. Well, you keep going forward in throughout Genesis, and you'll find over and over the commands that are it's given to Abraham, it's given to Noah, it's um given through Isaac, and it's be fruitful, multiply. And after Noah, he was they the people were supposed to fulfill the mission of God, this missio trinitas throughout the world. They decide we're not going to do that. Now, a lot of preachers preach that Tower of Babel message as they're trying to build their way to heaven, but that's not what the text says. It actually says the reason why they don't want to do that and stop is that is it says, lest we be dispersed. So that's the result of disobedience to the Missio Trinitas. And then what happens? It says, Let us go down. Not let not doesn't say the Lord came down, said let us plural, let us go down and change our language and then disperse them throughout the world. And that's what occurs.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

This is um this is the same explanation that uh Jordan Peterson uses when he talks about the Tower of Abel. He looks at it the pretty much the same way. Um and um, but so then was this book written for the for the uh the average layman, the academic, the the man on the street? Who are you thinking of when you wrote this? Or is this such a passion project that you just sort of really let it whatever happen, happen?

SPEAKER_02 12:18

Um yeah, I think in the back of my mind, obviously I'm thinking about you know, fellow um church planters, though not just church planters, but I I I put a whole chapter in there called Ecclesial Movement or Ecclesial Formations, because there's so many different ways and in manners where the Spirit of God works within culture and community. And so I wanted to give a book to those pioneers, I would say, the people who are on the front lines looking for a way to how do I align with the spirit, or perhaps even a pastor or a priest who may be saying, wait a minute, you know, I I'm seeing some of this and I I understand it, but how do I adapt this to what I already have? And so I'm never a person that says it's either or it's both and two things can be true at the same time. Yes, they can be. Yeah, and so I think when when I do that, I I looked at this and I thought, I just hope, you know, assuredly, that that it this book is getting into the right hands of people who are passionate about the mission of God. And I would hope that would be everyone. I know it's not, but I but that is my passion, and that's why I do do what I do. Uh, even as the the director of spiritual formation, my my overall job, my overall mission is to cultivate spiritual rhythms for people. And you know, there's not really a metric, um, so to speak, to see if someone is really growing in Christ, other than for me and what I write in here, is what we see in Galatians 5, which is the fruit of the spirit. Are people exemplifying or they are they not just applying the principles, but are are they producing this fruit that you and I see? Gentleness, kindness, you know, um love, self-control, these things. Now, that is how we can see if we're aligned with the spirit. So when I say orthopathic alignment, what I'm not saying is like a a Holy Spirit charisma that is is um you know a pendulum that goes one way. I I think, and I write this uh in the book, a lot of us grew up where either our orthodoxy was strong or the orthopraxy was strong. Meaning, either are the beliefs and doctrine were really strong, but the church really wasn't really good at practice, wasn't really good at really engaging the community. Uh, or they were really good at maybe um emotion and feeling and and Holy Spirit, uh charisma charisma, but no doctrine, right? And and so how do we align that? Now I don't say it's easy, but I'm saying this is what we see that the early church is striving for. I don't even know if we can pin it on one of the churches. Maybe there are, because I I I talk about that too. I matter of fact, I go through all the early churches in form, in context, where they were, what they worshipped, what they did, um, and how their alignment would have been a little bit different in building cultural bridges.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Well, that's remarkable in and of itself that you could cover that much of the waterfront. So then you're telling me that um the an average adult could pick this up and get value out of it, is what you're telling me.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

I believe they would be absolutely illuminated.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Okay. That's what I wanted to hear. That's what I want to know. Um, so how long how long has it been out?

SPEAKER_02 16:17

It's only been out now for about a month, I believe. And um yeah, the first first two weeks. So I I there was no launch date. Uh there were I I didn't contact a bunch of people and say, uh, hey, make sure you like the book or I'm gonna be launching it tomorrow. I didn't tell anybody it was coming out. I hid it until the last moment. And then once it was released, then I just put out uh a notice on um on LinkedIn and one on Facebook. That is the only social media I have.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

I got rid of all my other social media just because it was so then it's uh it's on it's on Amazon now?

SPEAKER_02 17:01

It is that and it was trending within the top new seller for the first two weeks that I was I I had to equate it just as a God movement because I well I didn't tell anybody. I mean, uh it just it was only people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

It's not exactly sex, drugs, and rock and roll either.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

So look, there's there's nothing about this that says buy me, right? I mean, that's one of the biggest titles.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Um yeah, yeah. I know when I when I wrote A Principles, um the publisher um demanded control over the title. Right, yeah, they demanded control over the cover. Now they did a good job for me because uh, but yeah, they uh and we know what will make someone buy this book, Larry. Okay, fine. So anyway, it's but it's a successful launch, a couple of weeks, three weeks, whatever. And so you're going to to no, I can't say where you're going. But um, anyway, you're going on the into this trip, you've gone a couple of weeks. I'm gonna shift gears just a little bit. Let's let's let's look not so far afield and let's look at what's happening in our country on the political landscape, specifically uh regarding the assassination of um Mr. Kirk last week. Um, I'm sure that hit you rather to hard as it hit me hard. It was totally unexpected. I I knew him or knew of him, and I'd seen some of his appearances. I didn't know that he was such a strong believer until after the fact. I guess I hadn't been paying attention. Um, and uh, but I knew that his um his aim was uh college campuses. And I think what uh aside from all the things we could talk about, I think one of the things that that that struck me was, you know, I've heard him speak, he has his own opinion, he's welcome to do that. I didn't find him particularly um uh provocative or incendiary, um, and yet that's how he was taken by some of the more, shall we say, um virulent elements of our society. Now that this has happened, um how do you think we're gonna see things move forward with regard to faith and young people?

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Um, you know, so I do have a daughter who who is a part of the Gen Z generation. Um that generation was uh shocked at the the manner in which um the assassination occurred, and they saw it. I mean, they saw it on social media. Um I think they were all aghast and and I I did not view the whole tape.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

I saw the news report, which always stopped shy of the actual incident, and I was warned you you don't want to see it. So I have a you know, I I'll take the description, you don't have to show it to me.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Yeah, so it's um you know, go on it doesn't matter within this country. We can go back pretty far where assassinations have occurred, and and obviously once you start into get into the the 60s, and I mean we would, you know, there's a lot of us that would probably say, you know, hey, I didn't I didn't agree with Malcolm X, but you don't go and slaughter somebody.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

No.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

I mean I mean, like part of our society has this understanding, hopefully, that's interwoven. It's kind of like uh sports have these unwritten rules. There's something in society that's supposed to be unwritten, that's in our moral code that says that that's not the way we do things, that's not the way we handle things. And I think for me, that needs to be the foundation for not just believers, but for all people to understand, like, hey, we can we can agree to disagree on on things. Now, with that said, I understand and relate to people who have been suppressed with uh systemic failures or things that have occurred in in their communities for for decades to where they may feel that the only way to get a voice across is to do something where somewhere that is so uh causes atrocity that someone will listen. I understand. I'm not saying it's okay. What I'm saying is I is I can fathom that thought, um, but it doesn't make it right. And within that thinking, we have a country that's just that's polarized. And this Gen Z generation, we were, I was just having this conversation. With my daughter, that they've seen it all. They've seen the divorce, they've seen the killing, they've seen the drugs. And as a matter of fact, their their generation doesn't drink and doesn't smoke. Um, they're they're high more highly likely to attend uh a church service than any of the other generations. And I think one of the things that they're that's happening is that they're noticing the brokenness, and also they were brought up in social media with this polariza, these polarizing thoughts. Oh they've all been targeted in social media, they they've all had it used against them, and I think it's a different generation. Now, I I can only speak from the conversations that I have. Um, and so I I I don't know if that's a blanket statement, but uh obviously not. But I think part of that is in the understanding of we're all created in the image of God, and therefore we know what is right and what is wrong deep down. And that's something compelling to this younger generation that I would hope you and I've talked about this before. Like my my pol my politics is smack dab in the middle. Like I'm I'm not on that either side. And in all honesty, if I were, you know, I'm like you, like I I I would uh honestly say before you I never heard Charlie Kirk really speak an event. I never sat and watched one. I knew of him, but I really I can't speak into someone. Someone tells me he said X, Y, or Z, I can't defend or I I can't make an excuse because I really didn't see it unless someone has seen it. Uh what I try to do is just say, look, in the manner in which he was slaughtered, that's that's what I want to address. Whether it's the the you know the uh the political leader from Minnesota, or whether this is just it's gone too far in the in not listening and instead just saying, well, this is violence is gonna be the only way we're gonna do it. But that this is something that's been in America forever. That's part of our absolutely part of it's part of our rebellious nature and who we are. We can go all the way back to the colon to the colonialists. Um, so I don't know if the polarization is gonna change, but what I can say is I think we could have a generation of of young people that may turn the tide.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

You know, we may have that sooner rather than later. There's um um this week um the president was in Britain today and yesterday, and there was a lot said about the special relationship we have with that country. And it was pointed out that we were the um they're the mother country and we're their children, and we split away, uh, but we went on and made a better thing than what they had already. Uh, and we remain, you know, close as a result of that. So I see that. Um, you know, the what I was going to comment though is that um the one thing that is different. I lived through the um um um the assassinations of the 60s. I remember uh Kennedy, uh both John and Robert and Martin King and these people. The thing that I find fundamentally different that I think will have to remain to be seen is the absence or presence of social media.

unknown 25:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Where uh it the social media obviously is a quite an accelerant. It is um and is it simply going to change the volume or is it gonna change the character of what you're seeing? Uh people are, you know, I I mean, even my children, it's only the youngest one that had any sort of acquaintance with that. Uh they all grew up without you know smartphones or what have you, and I think they're better forward, quite frankly. But that's my personal opinion. Uh how many children do you have, Matthew?

SPEAKER_02 26:10

I have three. Yeah, three daughters. Uh one's 31, one's 30, and one's 17. Um, but yeah, I would now now I grew up with brothers. So uh for me, and and I wasn't always the um the spiritual director. So, you know, I grew up in a time where uh I kind of agree with Mike Tyson, where he says, like, you know, everyone has a plan until you're punched in the mouth, right? And and I will say that now, you know, like I don't like violence like within that, and I don't think violence works, but we do have a generation that there's so much vitriol that is put on social media, and I'm like, I can obviously see that no one has ever, you know, you know, like for me, my father used to pick a switch, and he would say, You go outside, pick it, and if it doesn't sing, I'm gonna go get one. Um, you know, and and I can remember getting the switch when I was a kid. Do I believe like all parents should beat their kids? No, obviously there's a ton of that that's going on too. However, I'm just saying, like, there are some fundamentals though that I think have escaped our society to where the the borders or or at least the the the the the parameters have been changed. So for instance, you would probably agree with me. When I was growing up, if I did wrong in my neighborhood, I had I had like a neighbor or something grab me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Oh yes, there was accountability.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

It wasn't just my parents that I was worried about. I was worried about, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

You were a known person, there was accountability.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Yeah. So and I knew that like my neighbor could spank me and then send me home, and then I get it even worse, right? I mean, like that you didn't act a fool, you know, somewhere that presented. My father said, you know, the one thing you have is your name. You know, you you can't change that. You have to make that good. No, there were definitely times where I did not. Um, and by the grace of God, I am who I am, as Paul says, and thank the good Lord for that. But I still knew, I would say I still knew right from wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Did I did I have fist fights? Yes, absolutely. I had fist fights. Never did I ever think about pulling out a weapon and killing someone, though.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah, there was sort of a there was a heavy Yeah, there were limits. There was a cap on the violence. They everyone knew what was what was acceptable and what wasn't acceptable. And when I was in school, something that was unacceptable was some guy bringing a knife to school. Right. Which, by the way, can be just as deadly as a gun, uh, but only in a smaller way. You can't kill as many people at once. But you know, I well, of course, you know, I didn't even think of someone bringing a gun to school. I mean, it was like you just don't do that.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

And um, and as you said, there's the um the neighborhood enforcers, they're always there. And uh well, it is. Um and uh even though some of us can be uh uh rather smart about it. Um I was fairly young, I was like about five, six years old, maybe seven, and I lived in an in an urban environment in a town, and the houses are on you know on streets, and there was a small alley behind the street, and you went around this way up to the next block. Well, I'm an only child, Matthew. I think we've discussed that. And um, however, you know, I always I liked playmates, I was one of playmates. Well, the family up the street, the Catholic family of our neighborhood with all the kids was up the street. And my mom loved me to me to play with them, but you know, she didn't want me to be over there harassing their mother all the time and all this, and she would keep me at home some and I'd sneak off and go up there. Well, our neighbor was an elderly widow um who took it upon herself to tell me when I went around, because I had to go by her house on the way up there. You know, Larry, if you cross that alley, the hopgoblins are gonna get you. Well, being the smart pants that I was, all right, I had kind of a mouth on me. Here's what I said to her Oh, Mrs. Soaps, I've met them and they're very nice people. My mom was not not entertained by that, not at all. No. Um, but um, yeah, but you were everyone you knew I knew we knew all of our neighbors, we knew who they were. Um everyone knew one another in that regard. And that's that's that community enforcement, is what it is. And a lot of that's been lost because people are living in these huge apartment blocks and other things where it's difficult. Um, I still live in what you could call right now, I live in what you could call a leave it to beaver neighborhood, where um everyone knows one another here. And I'm on an I'm on a cul-de-sac with me and my neighbor, and we know if someone's around that we don't know who this is, who is this person, you know, and uh and we just kind of watch for each other.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah, there's actually some insight there, uh, like sociologically, like we know that the average person in the United States moves about 11 times throughout their life. So that that's different than what we saw in in the 50s, 60s, you know. And uh and also the experiment, as they say, the the great American experiment, which you know changed the the element of of knowing our neighbors. Like we put the mailbox at the curb uh instead of being at the house, so they can drop the mail there, and then you could drive in straight to the garage and then go into the back door. Um, right. And so one of the things that I that I teach within church planning, the first thing I want you to do is take your grill and put it in your front yard. Like if you if you're gonna grill, you're gonna grill for your neighbors, right? This is these are who you need to know.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

But we have block parties, Matthew. We have block parties.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Yeah, and yeah, but you see, like that, yeah, but that's something I think that we miss, and something that social media has the division because we don't actually get to know someone. And so, would like I said before, the vitriol, the the language that we use is because we we really don't know the person. Like I made a comment about uh the New York Yankees the other day, and and someone like quit back, and and it was very rude. And I was like, and I just messaged back and I said, I'm so sorry that you're having a bad day today.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

And I said, I'm sorry you're having a bad day.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

I hope you have a better one, you know. Like, I'm not gonna engage in an argument on that, but that's where someone doesn't know you or know your soul or know know anything about you, and yet can speak so harshly. Well, it provides some sort of it it provides some sort of perceived anonymity, although it's almost as as if the words of Christ, you know, when I return, it'll be like the days of Lot, the days of no more. The the hearts of people grow colder. But I say this that sounds all well and good. But if you haven't studied the first century in Roman society, you may miss something because the Greco-Roman world was very, very difficult to navigate, it was not easy at all. So uh while I think that our generation may be mirroring you know the 21st to the first, there's a lot of a lot of similarities within that.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

Well, human life was a lot cheaper then, that's for sure. Yes. Uh, in that regard, it wasn't respected the way it is now, even in some of the more difficult places.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Um it's enlightenment thinking.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Yeah. And that did not come. Uh the other thing I think is interesting, every once in a while you'll see these articles where they've uncovered a Roman bath or something and the technology that is uh like the the thermal floors, plumbing, all these things. And then and then after the fall of the empire, much of that was simply lost. And people went into that period of the dark ages where it was like almost living in caves again. Um that all that just went away and then it gradually came back. I think that's fascinating, which also dispels the notion that we're on an ever upward spiral. Uh-uh. No. Or as some of our politicians would say, we're going around on the arc of history. No, I don't think so. Right. No.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Yeah, I don't, I do not think for one second that humanity was was created uh unintelligent. I don't believe in cavemen. And the reason I don't is because I believe that all people are created in the image of God with intellect, with reasoning, with intelligence. That means, you know, and and rationale. Humans are extreme more than any other creature on the face of the planet. You know, I've said this to my students. You you could take uh all the wood and the nails and the hammers and the saws and all the the equipment you need and the tools and put them in a room with uh a room full of the smartest um you know primates that you can think of. And at most, at best, maybe you'll have two beams put together. Maybe. But if you do the same thing with a bunch of human beings, the things that they create are are phenomenal. Well, we have a different mindset.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

The big difference, I think, is we have agency, we're self-aware, and those animals are not self-aware, we are self-aware. Um, so now you've got this book out, you're enjoying some sort of the uh warm and afterglow of that. That's good. Enjoy it, Matthew. Enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that. Um, and you're going on this trip. What's next for you? Now that's what I really want to know. What's next?

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Uh believe it or not, there is another book coming out. Um yeah, in October, it'll be releasing for Advent specifically. It's called Light for the Journey. Uh, I'm going to give some explicit rights to World Relief to publish and put that and distribute that. Uh, and so I'm just really excited. It's about the um the journey of the holy family, uh, and also like it's about uh what's called the movemental love story. It's about how how this god of movement uh you have astronomers that move to see the messiah, the shepherds who move to see the messiah, the messiah who moves with his family and then back forth, you know, and uh and so uh it's just a a great narrative. Uh I wrote it, I write it more in an immersive style writing. Uh so it's more of my style writing than this, than than this book. And even though I tried to really keep this in an immersive style, because that's how I write, um, I wanted to to make it a tiny bit more informative than I than I would. But this new book, yeah, that one, I really look for it to be informative to people who may have a view of of Jesus uh as not someone who was um um understanding the plight of of being a refugee and and moving from place to place. He experienced it and lived it, and uh just hoping that it opens hearts and minds to uh understanding our our humanity, you know, if I if you will.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Jesus was a member of a people that had been the world's kicking boy for a couple of millennia by then. Yeah, um, they were still living in their home um their ancestral country, but they'd been kicked around and it and in very in just a few years, 60 years, 70 years, it would be the diaspora. Britain would come, uh Britain, what am I saying? Rome would come and uh destroy the temple and disperse them. Uh they'd had enough, so to speak. Um, but um I was gonna say something in regard to that. I lost my thought, Matthew. But we were talking about um uh this your next move and what you're thinking. Um oh that um Jesus was well aware of disruption in people's lives. Um He was aware of the disruption, instability in his the people around him. So it wasn't as though, I mean, yeah. Um, and he He I I don't know, I don't know what your theory is of the incarnation, but I I tend to think, of course, we know what it says, fully God, fully human. All right, fine. What does that really mean? Well, I tend to think that Jesus, the the human person of Jesus, um is the only fully realized or actualized, I should say, actualized individual that ever left it lived on the earth. In other words, he he lived the life that we were intended to live, but were condemned not to live after sin entered the world. And so that's sort of what I think of Jesus being. He's sort of the fully actualized man because we said he's sinless, but he's fully human. And so that's how I see him. It's like, oh, so this is what this is what what men would have looked like if it had not been for sin. Uh this is how they would have behaved had it not been for sin. That's the way I tend to look at it.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

Um yeah, well, the only difference is that he actually experiences death, which changes it. Now, of course, Enoch, we're told, is just translated, and um all Bible translators look at that and just say he was no more. Like we're we're not really sure whether God is just taking him and translated him and what does that entail? Uh, of course, there are a lot of a lot more context, depending on um some forms of doctrine the way you look at it. But it's the same thing with Elijah. Elijah's taken up in a whirlwind as Elisha watches. So we have these individuals that are taken up to be with God, but the difference is they don't experience death. Jesus, being fully God and fully man, experiences death and overcomes death and the grave, and then is brought to life. And in that sense, he is the cosmic king and ruler, and all authority is given to him for that. And so that's the difference is that we we not only have, as the the writers of scripture say, a uh an intercessory person in between us, an advocate, but we uh have someone who understands and relates to to us because he lived, ate, walked, talked, laughed, cried, absolutely, did everything with uh like and and uh to think sometimes hurts your your mind. I think that that this really creator, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

Some people haven't done it for years, Matthew.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Um I mean it's it it's mind-boggling that a creator could have come as anything, could have come as an alien, he could have come as any whatever you wanted to come as.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Haven't you heard the jokes? Oh, I uh I I can't think too much, I get a headache. You know, I I I prefer not to think too much, I get a headache. But yes, in fact, uh one of my idle things that I think about is if Jesus were to come to earth today, as a 21st century man, obviously, and we're told that he was fully human and fully divine, what would he look like? How would he appear to us? And would we even pick up on the fact that he was somewhat different than us? Because you obviously fit into first century society, he'd fit into this society more than likely he'd be a working class dude because he was a working class dude then. Um he wouldn't have been ugly, but he wouldn't have been a male model either. Um, so you know what he would have been perfectly ordinary in many respects, um, except when he opened his mouth. And I'll I'll give you an example, and I'm gonna tell him myself here, if you don't mind. Um, I have a uh I have a motorcycle. I think I may have mentioned that to you. I have a fat boy, and I really enjoy riding it. And I took it up when I moved out west. Well, I have, you know, I have my bald head, as you can see, you have one just like it, and I have the the big honkin uh leather jacket and the big bike and the black uh the black glasses, and I do wear a helmet when I ride it, but I've got a picture of me sitting on this thing with my bald head and these black glasses and the and the leather. And my youngest daughter uh says to um my wife at one point, she looks, she says, you know, daddy looks really badass, so he opens his mouth and Yale comes out. So I've often wondered about that. Yeah, that Jesus may have looked a certain way and may have sort of crew you know, had a s people would have a certain sort of Assumptions about him, just looking at him. But yet when he opened his mouth, there was a whole different understanding of what was there.

unknown 44:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

And when he was in the temple. Who is this guy? How does he know all this stuff? Yeah, that was like we don't get this. This man didn't come out of the learned class, he doesn't have an theological education that we know of. Um, right, you know, where is he? I just I've often toyed with that idea. Would we even would we also reject Jesus only in the 21st century?

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Yeah, I think the difference obviously would have been uh the social media element and the and the element that we're not supposed to know what he looks like. Because if we did that was that would be what we worship, someone who looks like that. Well, and we're he came back.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

We're told that his appearance was unremarkable.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

So he was he came at the perfect time in history, that's what we're told. And uh, and there's reason for that. But we're also told people just marvel that everything he said, uh, and the things that he did, the miracles he did. You know, if that's posted on social media, uh that that that goes viral real fast um when you start, you know. So uh I don't even know, I don't think it would be any good, to be honest with you. I I I would still see that there would be people, you know, we we talked about the Charlie Kirk incident, there would be people that would want to put him to death. Without a doubt.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

I would agree. Um you um um as I like to say to people, you don't you don't um crucify Mr. Rogers, you've got to see you've got to generate some serious enemies. So he wasn't a go-along to get along kind of guy. Uh he had very specific ideas, and you're correct in the sense that it was a perfect timing in the world. First of all, you had the confluence of the Jewish world, the Hellenistic world coming from you know Plato, that direction, and then you had the Roman Empire, which for the first time had an incredible transportation system that allowed the message to be spread very rapidly throughout the entire empire. That's the first time in history that had been that had been available, is that you could go to the full reaches of all the known world because one empire controlled it, and there was this incredible uh transportation system that they had.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

Knowing let me uh just say this for a moment too. No, I was thinking knowing what what I said and knowing how social media is, in no way, shape, or form was I equating Charlie Kirk with Jesus. So uh I wasn't oh I know that and uh yeah, you you know how people uh you know this is what this is what he said on this. Uh I was making the point, and I would say this even if Aristotle or Plato or one of the you know were here, people would try to kill him too. Like you know, like my point is we have a society that just doesn't uh they don't know how to handle emotion and disagreement.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Well, Socrates was put to death, Matthew. That's right.

unknown 47:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Oh yeah, oh my goodness, yeah. Well, and no, I didn't mean to imply that. I I didn't say anything that gave wind to that, I hope, anyway. Um so okay. Clarify um um wow. Well, is there anything you want to add, Matthew? We could talk a little longer, but I think uh probably might people might be bored with us, but uh we we'd be entertained, but I don't know about them. But uh anything else you want to add? Oh, Matthew, I think you are frozen on me, sir. Uh-oh. Are you there? Can you see? Are you there? Are you there? Ladies and gentlemen, it looks like we've lost him for a moment. Hope he comes back on. Uh there he is. Up nope. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:14

Before it dies, come through, so I think uh something having to do with my internet. Yeah, sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

That that's what happens when you live in the Midwest, Matthew. You know, we don't have that out here in the Rockies. I'm I'm on I'm in Virginia Beach. I'm all the way on the coast. Ah, okay. Well, I can't I can't complain then. All right. But you're but so you're just having a hurricane instead, right? I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

We we did yesterday, yeah, two days ago was like we had 11 inches of rain in seven hours. It was pretty bad.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

People here would absolutely go bon's eye because uh our total rainfall for the year is nine inches, and so you get an idea of what we're doing here.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Yeah, it was it flooded, but you live on sand and it just goes right in.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Well, anyway, I want to thank you for there again, giving me more of your time. I'm glad we were able to share about your book. We will do this again. I just love talking to you. And so when this other book comes along, and I want to hear about your trip once you return to the land of the living.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

We'll do that.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Okay, we can do that. I guess one thing I like about you, Matthew, is you have a keen anthropological sense where you're looking at how men and women relate to one another, the situation they find themselves in, and of course, the commonality of the human condition, where all, as Lewis would say, sons of Adam and daughters of Eve. Um but yeah, thank you, thank you very much. You know, ladies and gentlemen, we've had another wonderful conversation with uh Matthew Fretwell and myself, and I've just thoroughly enjoyed this. I hope you've found this time to be of use on your own self. You can always reach me at Larry at the Aprinciples.com for any of our guests, and I hope you'll tune in next week. Thank you for tuning in. Thanks, Matt. Thank you for listening today. Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest. Guest comments and opinions are their own. The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.