Helping Donors Manage Nonprofits

Mr. Mueller founded Excellence in Giving in 2002 after 20 years of providing investment advice to major institutions and wealthy families. During his career at Morgan Stanley and UBS, Mr. Mueller evaluated investments in virtually every asset class. His clients relied on his ability to evaluate risk and reward of the investments in their portfolio. 
 
 Mr. Mueller used his investment background to launch excellence in Giving with a desire to help clients achieve high-performing philanthropic portfolios. The world-class team that Mr. Mueller assembled has been acknowledged as the premier provider of advice for values-based giving. 
 
 Since 2001, Mr. Mueller and his team have advised their retained clients on over $1 billion of charitable gifts. The Excellence in Giving clients give with great confidence and are able to celebrate the results of their gifts. Al’s proven service and advice to families makes him one of the most respected and sought-after thought leaders in philanthropy today. 
 
 Mr. Mueller played football at Brown University, graduated from the University of Arizona, and holds an MBA from the Anderson School of Management at UCLA. He and his wife, Susan, have three adult children and four adorable grandchildren. Al and Susan appreciate the challenging game of golf, mountain adventures, and ski slopes that the Rocky Mountains provide.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Eight Principles Voices. Conversations with those who are making a difference. I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles. Now join me as I welcome this week's guest as they invite us to come along on their journey. Hello, everybody. It's Larry Johnson, your host on Eight Principles Voices. And I'm delighted to have with me a man that I've known for a number of years, the real deal, a guy that does wealth management with a soul, I'll take it that way. And his name is Al Mueller. I want to welcome him to the show. Welcome, Al.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Thanks, Larry. It's great to be with you.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Well, you know, we've known each other for several years, and uh, and I've always admired your work. And there's something you said, maybe I don't even remember you said it to me, but you said it to me several years ago. Um, you know, Larry, um I forgot what the number was, but it was something like this. You know, we were talking about the inability or uh whatever of nonprofits to really understand donor needs and what what is required there. And um you said something about, well, you know, I've got X million dollars sitting on my desk for a nonprofit with enough imagination to use it. All right. That it's hard. And I've discovered also in some of my work that it's harder to give it away than it is to make it uh for these people. Um, you want to speak to that a little bit and with your own clients? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Well, I think it goes back. We have quotes all the way back to Aristotle that would say it's harder to give away money than it is to make it. And certainly uh Andrew Carnegie said the same thing more, and then more recently, people like Michael Bloomberg and and uh Bill Gates, they've all said, and and Warren Buffett have all said it's harder to give away money intelligently than it is to make it. Now, you could go to the top of a building and throw dollar bills out or something like that to give it away, but but to give it away intelligently and to do to have things, to have sustainable life change happen, which is a goal of most of our clients, it's very difficult because uh it life is even life change is difficult, and the organizations don't usually start with uh an analysis of what the cause, the root cause of the problems are. Therefore, they can't test solutions against that. I think in in business, Mr. Market will tell you if you've got something right or wrong. Uh the nonprofit sector, you can make um emotional appeals and find generous people. Certainly in the U.S., uh we're known as a generous country. Um, I think we could do a lot more, but we're it's we're more generous than most countries around the world. But you can write appeal letters or you can get on TV and show pictures of dogs being harmed or you know, people starving or whatever, and you'll get money. Whether you are doing an effective job of solving those problems or not, it's it's the donors sometimes don't get any chance for and there's not a feedback loop for the donors to know if their money is is well spent.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Um well one thing that um I've often said, and you can you can you can respond to this, that the people, especially as we get up into the upper levels of wealth and and income, certainly, um it's not about it's not about money to them. It's just really not about the money, it's about the impact they're gonna have. But more importantly, it's it's what is it that is what as Jesus would say, what is it that they're their pearl of great price? What is it that really makes them feel fulfilled? You see, that's what it is. And so I say to people, if you can give your donors at any level experiences, however you like to pronounce however you like to define that word, that they cannot purchase, they can't buy it. You see, the money is no object then. Um it just cut it flows because it's not about the money. And so many nonprofits uh make it about the money, and they make it about the money to the point where the source of that money becomes objectified. Um you've seen that.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

What in your view would be one or two things that your your average regular garden variety nonprofit could do on a simple basis that would begin to attack that issue, that problem?

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Well, I think fortunately today we have such great technology. I mean, we've gotten videos from the middle of Tanzania from a school that was uh called Under the Same Sun that was helping albino kids in Tanzania. Albino kids were literally being hunted for body parts, and there's a woman there who it has a school that both educates these kids and protects them. But she created a video just using an iPhone that that brings me to tears whenever I watch it and certainly blessed our the donor who supported the school. And um, again, I think technology giving people good reports back for the use of their proceeds is uh you know, I think it's it's very important. But it's also you ask many uh nonprofits how much they spend on on reporting, you know, where's the line item in their budget for reporting? And reporting keeps you know donors interested, they it's it's good for your donor retention. Uh I mean, there's so many good things. And sometimes I would tell a nonprofit leader change the word reporting to blessing. You know, reporting is reporting really is blessing. And so I think every nonprofit, certainly in the faith-based sector, and probably outside of that, would say, Yes, we would like to bless the people who support our work. Okay, well, do that by good reporting, very, you know, robust, feature-rich stories and numbers. You know, you shouldn't be, you shouldn't have an allergy to numbers. You should put numbers in there and you should put stories in there. And it's a combination. And so it because people, I think the best donors are ones that use their head and their heart. I think God gave us both. He didn't say pick one. And so use your head and your heart. You should have an emotional connection to these organizations you support, and you should have an intellectual connection. Uh, both both are very important.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

You know, um, you you touched on the need to um uh keep your keep your donors informed, to you're really blessing them when you when you talk about the the good that their investment has done. You're blessing them. And too often uh when nonprofits do that, they do it with one hand behind their back. Let me even what I'm talking about. How many times have you received a letter from an organization you've supported and they thank you? And in the same letter is another ask.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

It it happens all the time. It happens all the time, and it's uh it it it's one you just it negates the the the sincerity of the thank you. It's thank you, let's have another one. And you know, the nonprofits that feel that have a transactional relationship with a a donor, it's kind of like they're trying to figure out the donor's ATM code and and get get and get and get money out of them. I mean, that's not, you know, their best relationships are transparent and accountable relationships between the recipient and the funder. And so it's not based on how much money can I get out of you. And I've even heard horrible stories from donor development uh organizations that have told uh organizations they should do things like have 13 monthly appeals because older people will forget if they gave that month or not. And they'll they'll do instead of 12 monthly appeals, they'll do 13, or they'll have two year-end appeals. They'll have a fiscal year in and it'll end in June 30, and they'll have a uh calendar year-end, and and they'll they'll make two year-end appeals to to donors. And so I think there's things that are sort of that I would consider manipulative at a minimum, and perhaps even dishonest. And um, and those those organizations, you know, sadly, they still they don't really go out of business. I mean, that's the nice thing about the the marketplace is if you have a really bad product or service, you'll go out of business. Um, in the nonprofit space, you can exist for a really, really long time.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

So well, you know, the overall average first-year renewal for for C3s in this nation is just hovers right at 40%, 39 to 40 percent. Now, and so I pose the question a little differently. How many businesses do you know that could stay in business, losing 60 percent of their customers every single year? Be tough.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Be tough. I mean, anybody who analyzes businesses look at customer acquisition costs, and you know, someone who's losing that many existing customers would be through the roof to try and keep replacing those and getting new ones.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Well, and it is, it's a it's a factor of of order of magnitude, Al. That it it's about 10 times the cost uh to acquire a new donor as it is to retain a current donor. Yeah, and yet the the conventional thinking is we need more donors, more donors, more donors. And that's because these people aren't being brought in as investors. I call them investors, Al. I don't even call them donors anymore. Um, because they're investing in something that's important to them. Correct. The key is what is that? Yeah, do we really know what it is?

SPEAKER_00 9:23

And they want they want to see a social and spiritual return on investment. You know, they want to see things happen. So our our our normal metric is what what level of sustainable life change have you accomplished? And if you haven't accomplished that, then you mean again different organizations have different approaches. You can, you know, you can keep pulling people out of the river downstream, or you can go upstream and build a fence so they don't fall into the river. But you could also do both, you know. I mean, you can call you can look at root causes of a problem uh and see what you can do to attack the root causes, so there's less of those, and then downstream the people that have already been affected by the problem. I mean, you know, you can you can put nicer pillows in the homeless shelter, or you can try to help people not be homeless in the in the beginning. So I think organizations need to look at both. I mean, some are called more specifically to one side of the up or the other, but but we do need to see ask a ministry what is the problem they're trying to solve and what is their their proposed solution.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

What what is the I'm reaching back into my into my uh uh uh early life. What what's the uh what's the hymn? Rescue the perishing. Well, what's the hymn that's that's a part of? I can never remember it.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Not yeah, I'm just not not in my him him uh uh uh random access memory is is taking over for me these days.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

But uh yeah, but rescue the perishing is a phrase from the hymn. And so you there's rescue the perishing, but then you know there's the other one that talks, it's the uh it's the other half of it, is that you keep people from getting into that situation in the first place. Um uh that's uh so tell me a little bit about of course we're not talking names here, but tell me tell me a little bit about the the kinds of clients that you work with.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah, we're fortunate to serve generous families. I would say their their common denominator is they want to make a difference, not just a donation. Uh they want to give to things that work. So last year it would be about 800 different organizations receiving gifts that total about $100 million from our clients. We serve about 35 ultra-high capacity families, and uh they're multi-generational. They're one of the other with only one or two exceptions, they're first generation wealth creators. Uh, we like working with wealth creators because they bring intellectual capital, spiritual capital, social capital, and they they're they're great problem solvers. I think almost by definition, if you've in business made a hundred million dollars, you're really good at solving some problem. And, you know, that's that can be that can be carried over into your philanthropy. And so I think the people that want to work with us are interested in solving big problems and uh are willing to put big money. I think another feature of them is that they want to go narrower and deeper. Um, I think that they've all written a mission statement. We call it a joy-filled giving profile, and that allows them to say no to certain things and yes to the things that are most important to them. And I think that a donor does have once they do that, once you write your mission statement, it gives you a lot more freedom to say no, because as a high capacity family who's known to be charitable, you're gonna you're gonna be inundated with requests. I mean, that's that that's just a given. And you know, they're not bad things. People are gonna ask you for money for good things, but they may not fit you. And so, you know, only God has the the bandwidth and the financial resources to deal with all the things out there. So you as a family can pick a subset of those things and then go deeper and with fewer, and um, and you'll get and you'll get better feedback. I mean, that's we've said it a number of times, but but the idea of getting reports back from a few organizations. I mean, if you gave, you know, think about a way to give away a million dollars back to your early beginning, it was about how hard it is to give away money. One person might say, I want to give away a million dollars. They might make a hundred ten thousand dollar gifts. Well, who in the world could keep track of a hundred organizations? I I I certainly couldn't. Um, and at the same time, you make ten thousand dollar gifts, you probably aren't going to make a significant difference anywhere. No, but you could also do a million-dollar giving by making ten gifts of a hundred thousand dollars. Yes, you could probably keep track of ten organizations, you could probably you know get robust reports back from those ten, and you would know that you that you made a difference. But again, uh you know, some people would prefer to give everybody a door prize in ten thousand dollars and and make and make and make a lot of friends versus saying no to people. I mean, that can cause relational tension or friction.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

So well, sometimes if they're giving uh door if they're wanting door prizes, what they're gonna do is then they're gonna fill up their mailbox.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Their mailbox would be full. I've I've I've walked into people's before we started working with one or two families. I walked into the the desk at his office and I saw this gigantic stack of papers that I think would have probably killed somebody if it fell over. And I said, What is that? He said, That's all the grant requests I've gotten. And I said, and and that was their uh modus operandi was they didn't respond. They didn't say yes or no, they just let them pile up. And I think that this guy probably lived in fear of somebody calling him and saying, Hey, what about my grant request? What are you gonna do with it? But you know, he he was in firmly in neutral, you know, he wasn't saying yes and he wasn't saying no, but essentially he was saying no by by not responding. But but these requests just and it weighed on him. I mean, that that that emotional inbox was it was definitely weighing on him because he knew everybody asked him for money and he hadn't said anything. Sort of like a passive aggressive approach, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

And I'm sure there were a lot of things that were quite worthy in that stack, but the question is you have to make decisions. Now, I want to go back to something you said before. You work intergenerationally, so I presume then you're working with more than one generation to train them in the use of philanthropy and the use of money.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

That's ideal. Ideal. You know, the families have um ask us to involve their adult children. Um, sometimes their children are younger and will go on trips, uh site visits, and things like that. But uh, if we're gonna operate a little bit more like a foundation uh staff or uh or team, uh if they have voting privileges, that probably comes at about 18 years old and up, um, they can bring ideas to the table and the family will work. But you know, training the families on good communication skills, good responsibilities uh to work together is really a big part of our. And I would say that it's hard to do it on your own because um it's not a level playing field. What we've experienced when we work have a family meeting, we'll prepare a board book so that the kids and the parents and even possibly grandparents will all have the same information so they can have a meaningful discussion about a nonprofit request, the organization itself, because they all have the information that they can pre-read a week before the meeting and look it over and make it, you know, start having meaningful conversations. Because I think one of the drawbacks to family philanthropy is the kids will say, Hey, mom and dad, you already know about all these all the stuff about these charities. We don't. Why are we even here? We're not adding any value. And so to take away that frustration, we kind of think of ourselves as a staples easy button that the the kids can put an idea out, we can do the due diligence, they the family can have a meaningful discussion, they can make the gift, we'll chase down the reports, and they can celebrate. So it's a it's a virtuous circle in that in that sense.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

Um so is there an attempt to, I mean, I guess everyone has their own their own goals, but are we talking about um uh wealth that is spent down in one generation, or are we looking at multi-generations where the wealth transfers and the and the administers of that wealth are intelligent and continued the tradition?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

Well, I think it's I think scripture is clear about the need for parents to train their children. And and actually the the Hebrew word for train in Deuteronomy is sharpen like an axe. So you take raw material, but it's a repeated action. You don't sharpen an axe by just going over it one time. No, you know, you you need to sharpen it over and over. So that's that's training. And I think training for your children is action. You know, the military in the fog of war, you've trained. You don't have to think about or read a book about shooting a weapon or doing something. You've trained enough times that it's it's really automatic.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

If you aren't trained, you're dead very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, you're either trained or dead. That's that's a good way to look at it. But I think in philanthropy, the children need to be trained. And so whether they take over a large responsibility for a large sum of money or not, I I guess that's an open question. I think more of our clients have decided they should spend down uh in their foundations a big portion of this year, of their generation's wealth creation. And and I would say if they don't spend it down, they probably need to have a sunset because I have yet to come across very many second and third generation kids that are really excited about taking over the huge responsibility of giving away large sums of money. In fact, I I've there's a lot of pushback in generation generation two and three saying, hey, mom and dad, if you leave us $100 million to give away, it's a lot of work, number one. Number two, it's going to screw up our relationships because everyone's going to come after us for money. We don't want that. So, like I said, uh it's it's a probably a rare scenario where the kids are really excited to take over the responsibility of giving away huge sums of money from mom and dad.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Well, I think one of the few exceptions to that would would be a uh a family that's definitely kept their wealth over generations, that would be the Rockefeller family. Um, and the way they administer it through their insurance model. Are you familiar with that?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

I'm not. I know they have a pretty significant staff to go along with family members. So I I guess if you are able to staff it up and have the children be more involved at a management level than a than a administrative level, you could probably give them some more joy in that.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

I don't understand all about it, but it's my understanding that the uh members of the family do not get direct access, but it's fueled by the insurance vehicle. They will buy whole life insurance, it's paid up at the beginning of an individual's life, and that's used as a way to draw against. They get an opportunity to do to create wealth, they get an opportunity to draw from that, and of course, if they fail, that's it. But they begin to and then they they grow in that responsibility over time. That's as much as I understand, but it's you it's a it's a it's an insurance model that's being used, uh unlike say the Vanderbilts or the other Gilded Age people that pretty much the money's all gone now.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Um yeah, the Vanderbilts, I think they said, I think there was a gathering sometime in the 50s or 60s, it was 160 Vanderbilt heirs, and there was out of that, there was one millionaire out of the 160 of the one of the wealthiest families of all time. So yeah, wealth, yeah. If you don't train your children both in the philanthropy side and other other factors, uh you know, wealth may not be something that's a positive for the future generations. Um they don't have a yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

What is it, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations, isn't that the aphorism? Um and it's pretty have you seen enough in your career to see some of that, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Yeah. Well, I uh again, it's I I think it's wealth doesn't um you know enhance character, it just reveals it. And um, you know, and it will yes.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I I I want to make sure we emphasize that. There's this common misnomer that that that money changes you, it does not. It simply clarifies who you already are.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Well, and I and accentuates it. It actually will accentuate it. I mean, you'll if you are generous with a little, you'll be generous with a lot. If you were stingy with a little, you'll be stingy with a lot. So it it doesn't, it really doesn't fundamentally change character, it just accentuates it. It's fuel, or as you said, clarifies it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

It it it's fuel. Um, you know, we could be a little more frank, and I could say you just to be a bigger jerk. If you're a little jerk, you'd be a bigger jerk with more money to do it with. Exactly. That's all it is. Um, because the scripture makes it very clear that money does not have moral quality, it's the use of the money that has the moral quality, and that's it it it and so. That you know our Lord you know will uh bestow that on people, and that's an obligation and an invitation to do great things, yeah, is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

And well, it's a responsibility. We have a responsibility to steward God's resources, he's entrusted to us for some period of time, and um you know, we'll give an account. I mean, we all have to, we should all live in it you know, with an idea that we will give an account for what we did with the resources, both time and treasure.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

So well, uh it goes all the way back to Adam and Eve, where they were given to the garden. Let's be productive, you know, you know, prep populate the world, do these things, take care of my my creation here. That's what our what our mandate really is, of course. As we as we know, sin entered the picture and things kind of went haywire. But that wasn't uh that wasn't the original design at all. Um if you were giving advice to a nonprofit executive who wanted to know how do I treat no two things, how do I attract people with means, and two, how do I treat them when they come when they express interest? What would be your advice?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Well, I I don't want to uh step into your too much into your uh world and realm, but um I you know when I get asked for advice, I say I've got my formula for development for ministry leaders or development leaders would be the three Gs. And first of all, number one G is do great communication. And and um, you know, great communication is really important. Do great, and you have to look in the mirror and ask yourself, am I doing great communication? Number two would be, am I doing great ministry? You have to ask yourself, take a fierce you know, inventory, are we doing great ministry? And then finally, the third G is meet great people. And great people are they are sometimes people of means, but the great people are the people that have passion about what you're doing. If you if you if you do great ministry, great communication, and meet great people. I I I've told people this, and I remember one woman, she called me back and kept her voicemail for a long time. She said, I did that, and he asked me how much money I needed. I didn't even have to ask him. And so so I would just say I try to simplify things, and so I would just use the three Gs of great people, great communication, and great ministry. And you know, again, great communication probably could be articulated a little bit more as both internal and external. You have to internally communicate so your team knows exactly what's going on. But I think there's a lot of times people's external communication is pretty limited, you know, when people really don't understand the scope and and scale and results of your ministry, then you haven't done great communication.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Well, um uh laying her on to that, uh, you know, I'm I'm the A Principles guy, and principle two is begin at the beginning. And that's essentially communicating who you are and what you do in a way that the recipients will understand. They will understand, not you. Um how many times have we either heard nonprofit people speak about an issue or they've we've read their website, and it's a lot of uh what I'd call professional gobbledygoop, uh, in-house language, uh, too much detail, overwhelming people. Uh, and it's not no, what is it they really want to hear? What is it, what's important to them?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Uh well, and this would be hard for some ministries to think about, but even you know, does your name communicate well what you do? We we've we've looked at so many different organizations, and uh, you know, we used to think of what we should have like a little like slot machine where we'd pull it down and and generate names, you know, like world global concern or you know, international uh hope something or other. I mean, it just there were like buzzword added to buzzword added to buzzword, and it's like uh you know, somebody gave me, I don't even want to use their name, but somebody gave me the name of the day, and I said, that tells me nothing about what they do. I I mean, I there's nothing that's that I understand what they do, and from the name. I mean, uh uh, you know, and I guess in business, maybe you can figure out. I mean, who would have thought a name like NVIDIA would mean something? But but, you know, so maybe it's okay to pick these names out of a hat, but if you can come up with a name that tells people um what you do, um, you know, I remember we I had to name our own company, excellence in giving. I I came up with that as I was listening to Rush Limbaugh talk about excellence in broadcasting, the EIB network, excellence in broadcasting. That was I said, you know what, I want people to be excellent in giving. So we're gonna use that name, excellence in giving. It it, you know, I mean, it may be a little bit confusing, but I think it has a standard and a and an explanation of what you would you would get if you work with us.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

So now, are are you totally on the um the philanthropically advisement side or do you do uh also uh wealth management?

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Well, the firm that uh purchased Excellence in Giving back in March is a is an investment firm, one assent out of Birmingham, Alabama, and there are people on that team that are doing the wealth management side. Excellence in Giving doesn't. Excellence in Giving is purely on the philanthropic advising side. So we help families make their charitable grants. Uh we're we're not uh I came from the wealth background side. I think Larry, you I mean my I spent 15 years in New York and Chicago with Morgan Stanley and a few years with UBS, the big Swiss bank, but um left left that career to start excellence in giving in 2002 and really have concentrated on the uh distribution side of that rather than actually accumulation side.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

And you have probably the war wounds to show me about uh working in investment banking, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Uh you know, I started in 1984. Uh Morgan Stanley was a privately held company, it was just a partnership, wasn't even a publicly traded firm. So in the 80s were a pretty wild, there's been a number of movies made about it. So yeah, I've we got I got a front row seat on that.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

So yeah. Um so you actually lived in Manhattan for several years.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Uh in Connecticut, yeah. Manhattan. Uh 80 Madison Avenue was our first address, and then up in uh in the Darien Darien, Connecticut. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Yeah, well, Darien's a delightful town. You know, I went to uh Yale as in graduate school and we'd go through Darienne. You have to say it just right out, Darianne. Darianne, you know, that that last little emphasis. Um, so tell me a little bit about um now Excellence of Giving is doing great work, and you you've been very pleased about that. And but you don't strike me as the kind of person who's just going to be resting on their laurels. Um, where are you going next? What's what's next for Excellence of Giving? What would you like to accomplish?

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Well, I you know, we're we're definitely trying to hire some more people to interface with the families. I mean, we need we need more people to quarterback the relationships, which is a hard, hard thing to have be a trusted advisor for those families. And um, but uh I think there's probably more international giving to be done. I uh uh last I'd probably say our clients are 80% domestic, and that's in their own communities and around the U.S. and maybe 20% internationally. Um, I think internationally is harder because it's you're a little more removed from it, but I think there's some really good opportunities around the world, and um we need to explore that a little more and bring that uh bring that back to to the U.S. uh donor community. Uh but I I'm also hoping that we can do some large-scale funding. I think that there's uh some of the terms now are called big bet philanthropy. And you know, we've had clients that have ability to give a hundred million dollars to something, but they would it would probably wouldn't be to one organization. It would be to a collaboration, if you will. So for instance, if you want to, if you were really passionate about trying to reduce recidivism, you'd you'd work inside the prisons to have a group like prison fellowship, work with the the inmates. When they had a life change, they were ready to leave the prison. You'd have them come in, live in a halfway house. It would be a very supportive environment. You'd have a job placement program. And I think if you if you started building those sort of continuums of care in different topics and have the organizations sort of, you know, work in their respective segments, I think you could make a difference. So I'm we're hoping to work with some ultra-high capacity families that say we want to make a difference in a certain topic and then put the right teams of nonprofits together to work together and to see bottom line the results come out the other side. So I think that would be something I'd be really excited about doing. Um, and I, you know, we're just there's so many things that you could work on, problem solving.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Oh, yes, there are. Well, let me let me respond to this, uh, not to be the contrarian. What would you say to um what's happened with uh uh Bill Gates pulling back from that kind of giving? He was really into these making these big splashes for a while, and I always kind of pulled back for reasons I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

So I just Well, I think I think they actually, you know, that I'm not sure I know a lot about the Gates Foundation, but I would say that they had some successes and they had some failures. I mean, you know, their theory of change about education uh was was failed. I mean, they they tried a lot of different things. They said, you know, you know, high schools were too big, so they tried to get to be made smaller schools. I mean, there have been there have been failures. I mean, the founder of a group called Netscape, Larry Um Barksdale, uh, Jim Barksdale, put uh a hundred million dollars into literacy efforts in Mississippi, and you know, they failed. I mean, but and you have uh Steve Jobs' widow um you know deciding that she's gonna transform education, and one of her key advisors is the former superintendent of the New York public school systems. I mean, Steve Jobs, Steve Jobs would would roll over in his grave if he said the guy who caused the problem is not gonna be the guy who fixes the problem. I mean, to me, a lot of these problems don't get solved because they're they they work within the existing system, which is broken, and I've never seen a pipe get fixed by pushing more water through it, you know. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

So so that's what does so I but I do think that you know if you went to a different uh person like a Tom Siebel from Siebel Systems, he's the founder of the Montana Meth Project, and he looked at the meth you know addiction in Montana and a few other states and said, you know, what are we gonna do? And they realized that kids were dying by it's almost like fentanyl today, but kids were dying by trying it once. And so the Montana Meth Project said, We're gonna scare these kids with the reality that you could try it once and die. And so they had these, you know, and how bad your life was on meth. And they they they were successful. I mean the meth use in a lot of those states went way down. I think it was adopted by six or other six other states, but he put a little bit of money on the research side and then found an effective solution. So I think it can be done. But back to back to your comment about I mean, Gates had great success with uh things like you know, malaria, um getting vaccines where there weren't any vaccines. I mean, there's some pretty simple um, you know, I mean, there's some things, but but education, they they rate themselves as a C. And um, I remember uh at a we were at a philanthropy roundtable conference, I don't know, eight or ten years ago, the fellow from the uh Walton Family Foundation said, we put a billion dollars in education and we can't figure out a single place where it made any difference. And you know, Annandale, uh the the readers digest. I mean, there's there's different places people have put money, but I would say the problem is they put they think, unfortunately, like the government, that if you just put more money behind something, yes, things things are gonna get better. And that's that's definitely not true. There's not a shortage of money. I mean, Washington, DC has the highest cost per kid in public education, and probably the lowest, you know, the results from the grades, the the the testing and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

So that well, that's you played into my hand. That was the answer I was looking for, is that you can't solve a problem by simply throwing money at it. Um absolutely right. Uh there's got to be some more nuanced thinking about how that money is applied and how it's progressed. I I love that. Yeah, you you played into my hand, Al. I love it. And it doesn't happen too often.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

But no, it's you're right on, Larry. I mean, that's that it it money does not solve. I mean, you have to be smart, and but but smart money can, if you in smart thinking, can solve problems. I mean, there yes there are examples. I mean, there's one in Chicago. Uh, these guys said, why are single moms living in these like you know, daily or weekly hotels with their kids or living in their cars? And they said they studied it and they found out that the problem was that women could never get ahead enough to get first and last month's rent in a security deposit. That was that was prohibitive for them to find to get into an apartment. They could pay their rent, they were probably paying more in some of these flea bag hotels than they really were. They would in a hotel in a thing, but they never could get so this group came along. Their model was we will be first and last month's rent in a security deposit on your behalf for these, you know, a few apartments. They put three or four women in these apartments, they put a social worker to talk to them and their kids. They had the women work together to do babysitting, grocery shopping, some different things. A very low-cost model to solve this problem. But but they, you know, they looked at it, they found out what the the problem of the root cause was a problem, and they went after it in a very intelligent way. And they didn't they didn't spend tens of millions of dollars building an apartment complex or something. They solved this problem.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

That's the government's response. Let's just spend uh throw money at a new company. Absolutely. Absolutely throw it at the uh well and then the other you know reminds me you're talking about uh understanding the problem, and these people, these women had this threshold they could never get to. Correct. And so what came to my mind was the whole payday loans business, you know, these these userous lenders, um, who in in my own city where I live, I attended uh one of the chambers uh finance uh I was invited to be a part of this finance board. And this man actually defended these creeps. Oh, well, you know, it's free market and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they deserve what they get. I just wanted to go, I want to look at this guy. Do you have any idea what you're saying? You know, not only is it is it revolting to listen to, but it's not even good business, Al. You don't grow the community or the or the or the economy that way. You it's per it's parasitic. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

It's wrong. And you know, I mean, there's again, thinking about smart solutions, there's a uh ministry we've supported up in uh Denver uh that probably will try to expand out in other cities, but called Hope House, and they help teen moms. And one of the things that broke my heart was hearing that a teen mom, only 2% of them get a college degree, even an associate's degree, a nursing degree. Well, it's hard to support yourself without a college degree of some type. And so they have these classes um or at least some sort of uh focus training of some sort. Correct, some sort of training, vocational training or whatever. But they actually at their location, one of the things that they do with their classes, they have child care for the little kids and they have a gigantic, I think it's eight washers and dryers. So literally the women can go to class and do their laundry and have their children cared for all at the same time in this complex. Now, who would have thought that washers and dryers would be part of but part of the solution? But it obviously is. You know, if you can go to class for two hours and do your wash your laundry at the same time for the single mom, that's a very efficient strategy. You know, it isn't, you know, you and I probably wouldn't think about something like that. But they said, hey, what do the single moms need? This is what they need. So they have a place where they can get a meal, they can get their education, they can get their kids watched and their laundry done. I mean, it's it's spectacle, it's spectacular.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

I love it. I love it. Yeah, I love it. You know, Al, you know, I'm gonna have you on again soon. We've just gotten started here, okay? So I I need to sort of draw it to a close, but uh I do want to do this again very soon. Um uh, but I want to thank you for spending time with us today. I know that my viewers and listeners will enjoy this. Um, and so um uh any parting comment you'd like to make, Al?

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Well, I would say that you know, we try to be provocative, we try to encourage people to change, we try to encourage the nonprofit leaders to think about reporting as blessing. We'd like, you know, I think your donors will really benefit from more of that. I think that uh, you know, there's one term that we can talk about next time, but I'll I'll tease it out here, Larry. I would like, I would like more nonprofit leaders to do reverse contingency planning. And I think what that would mean is you'd have a plan for a donor who would walk into your office and say, I've got extra $5 million. What would you how would you put it to use? And I don't think many organizations plan for an upside surprise. I think they always do the they always do the contingency planning where they'd say, hey, if we have to cut 10%, what do we do? But I I will share next time when we get together some stories of donors walking in with a good relationship with the ministry and saying, I've got some extra money, what do you have? And there's can be really good outcomes if you have a plan.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

So I I love that because that speaks to the whole uh conundrum of scarcity versus abundance. Absolutely. That's what that and I have, you know, I have well, not pitched battles, but certainly, shall we say, vigorous discussions with some with some nonprofit people in the community which I live who will just tell me with a straight face there isn't enough money out there. And I say, oh no, no, there's plenty of money, it's the way you're engaging these people. That's what the problem is.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

Uh there's plenty of money. That would definitely I would echo that. I can give you many, many stories. There's plenty of money, but there are there's, and I will say in closing, there are many visions without a lot of plans, which we refer to as ministry hallucinations.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Oh, I love that. I love it. Ministry visions without plans.

SPEAKER_00 40:38

Are ministry hallucinations, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Okay. All right, thank you. Thank you, Al, very much. Oh, this has been great. You know, uh uh we uh everyone, we've been talking to Al Mueller, who's the founder and chief executive officer of generous giving. Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Excellence in giving.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Excellence in giving. You won't hold that against me, I hope. Uh I'm getting older, you know, my memory is failing me every day. But uh, and he is uh, I think presents us with a very open and bright and abundant view of what's available to those who will who will take that responsibility and move forward. So so thank you, Al, very much. Um and thank you, audience, for listening. And there'll be someone very new, I guess it's next week for somebody else, and uh we'll take it up then. Thank you. Thank you for listening today. Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest. Guest comments and opinions are their own. The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.