Helping Philanthropists be Philanthropic

Chris Gabriel brings more than 30 years of experience across philanthropy, finance, nonprofit leadership, and charitable giving. His perspective has been shaped from nearly every side of generosity, including as a donor, development professional, board member, consultant, and financial advisor.

A Yale graduate with a master’s degree from Oxford, Chris leads a successful wealth management practice and holds the Certified Investment Management Analyst® designation. His work helps individuals, families, and institutions align their resources with the goals and values that matter most.

Chris is also the creator of WISEgenerosity, a framework designed to help people experience the full potential of giving. He believes generosity is most powerful when it is Well-grounded, Inspired, Satisfying, and Effective.

His book, WISEgenerosity, was released in 2024, extending his mission to help people approach philanthropy with greater purpose, clarity, and long-term impact.

Chris has served numerous nonprofit organizations as a board member, volunteer, teacher, and advisor. In 2025, he received the Georgia Planned Giving Council’s Greater Good Award for his commitment to philanthropy and charitable leadership.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to Eight Principles Voices. Conversations with those who are making a difference. I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles. Now join me as I welcome this week's guest, as they invite us to come along on their journey. Hello, everybody. It's Larry Johnson, your host for Eight Principles Voices. And I'm going to have so much fun today because my guest is Chris Gabriel, like the Archangel. I'm sure you're there you're right up there, Chris. And Chris is a person that has a unique perspective for those who want to understand the hearts and minds of donors. Because he works with them. He counsels them. He helps them with their philanthropy. So if you're looking to improve your standing with your investors, that's what I call donors, this is the man you need to talk to. So welcome, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Well, thank you so much, Larry. It's a pleasure and a privilege to be on the program with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

Thank you. Now, your official title is what?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Well, I wear a couple of different uh hats in my, as my wife says, two full-time jobs. Uh I am the founder and president of Wise Generosity, which is uh a platform and a program I know we're going to spend some time talking about. Uh, I also have uh a day job, so to speak, uh running a wealth management practice at a major investment firm that's focused on charity and philanthropy. Uh, I actually started my career in the nonprofit sector as a fundraiser and was development director of a national nonprofit organization for about five years. And it dawned on me at some point that I had sat at every seat at the giving table, so to speak, as a volunteer and board member and donor, uh, as a fundraiser who was working for an organization looking to raise money, and then uh as an advisor and counselor to uh people who have significant resources and are looking to uh use them purposefully and productively in service to the things they care about. Uh so that uh realization helped lead down the path that led to the to wise generosity.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Okay. All right. Um I I've heard it said. Well, uh, you you probably know our friend um uh Russell James. You you know you know absolutely. Well, Russell makes the claim, and I think it's uh pretty well. I mean, with him, it's always about the numbers, and that is that nonprofits generally are only accessing about 15% of what's actually available to them in resources. Um, and I understand that the principle behind that is most nonprofits are focused on income or liquidity uh as uh as opposed to assets. Um I'm sure you would agree with that. I mean, that's pretty much you're not you're nodding there. I mean, that that's uh consistent with what you had suspended.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

It's actually a framework uh in our process to point out, and again, just looking big picture at where there are resources available to do good in the world. Uh, if you break down US household wealth, for instance, uh, about 7% of that wealth is in cash. Uh, about 26%, give or take, uh, is in financial assets, stocks and bonds and investments and such.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

And then the rest is uh illegal.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

And the rest is in what you would call non-financial assets. Uh now, non-financial assets for many uh Americans is their home. Uh but for the wealthy Americans and the folks that our listeners are looking to tap into in terms of resources and support, uh, that often is homes plural. And it's not just homes, it's a whole host of other assets like uh private business interests or real estate or farms and ranches, oil and gas interests, timber, uh, et cetera. And because the vast the significant majority of wealth is in those non-financial assets, uh that's where the opportunity is, I think, that uh uh Mr. James is referencing. The reality of giving, though, as our uh listeners would also uh acknowledge, uh, is that most giving is done where there is the least money. So if you imagine what I just described as a three-layered pyramid with cash at the top as the smallest layer, financial assets in the middle, and then non-financial assets being the base at the bottom, but where giving comes from is split. Uh if you survey high net worth and ultra high net worth people, 93% say they give cash. Uh about uh uh 13 or 14 uh percent uh give financial assets, uh, and very few give non-financial assets. And so where the money is is not where the asks are happening. Uh and I know one of your main focal points in your work with eight principles is pointing in that uh having a relationship, really a mutual interest uh in achieving uh the purpose that the donor has in mind is an essential prerequisite to really tapping into their full capacity to give. And often that capacity is really oriented in these more significant non-financial assets, and so it's a big disconnect, and that's actually a major focus of my work professionally and with wise generosity.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Um, I like to say that um philanthropy is not about money. Um, money's involved, but it's not about money. Um, and uh uh I'm sure you remember um the original um miracle on 34th Street, the film.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Of course. Well, there's a scene in that film where uh the Santa uh referring people to other stores has really gotten attention. And uh R. H. Macy, who appeared as himself in the film, which I thought was interesting, he's called up, I forgot who the the guy was, but he called up Marino Hara to thank them for this incredible policy that you dreamed of, which they really didn't, but they're gonna take credit for it. And at the end of the meeting, he says there will be a more material expression of my gratitude in your holiday envelope. And I've never forgot a more material expression of a gratitude. That's a good way of describing philanthropy. It's a material expression of something far bigger. Far and yet we have a nonprofit community who makes it all about the material expression, makes it all about the money. Um, and of course, uh you know, they're they're in love with uh the technologists now who think they can totally decipher what someone's going to give, why, and when, um, using some um some algorithm that they've come up with, uh, which you and I both know is kind of shake our heads and okay, fine.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Well, and that's uh really the essence of the work that we've undertaken at Wise Generosity is to help to bridge inspiration and application when it comes to giving. Uh, because we I think uh at our best, uh, when we're engaged in the process of fundraising, we are looking to inspire someone uh to come alongside us and to address a need or problem in the world to help to make it a better place. Uh that's I think what draws people into fundraising as a profession. It's certainly what draws donors to the organizations and causes that we're part of. Uh but uh there's a disconnect often between that inspiration and then the full application. And that's really what we're trying to do is to bridge purpose and practice uh when it comes to giving. And the the centerpiece of that, which is something uh that we may want to explore further, uh, is a framework that we've developed uh called your personal giving identity. So think a Myers-Briggs test for giving. Uh, imagine if you're sitting across from a donor that you're just meeting for the first time, and rather than fumbling around trying to figure out uh where they're coming from, what their interests are, what their priorities and preferences are, you had a simple frame of reference that had taken them five minutes to complete, uh, where you had a breakdown of what drives them, uh, how to communicate with them in ways that they're gonna find most fulfilling and uh engaging. Uh and getting that conversation off, it's like getting a Head Start years worth of relational development in just a few moments. And so we hope and expect that this is gonna be a transformational resource. And it very much goes along, Larry, with the whole framework that you've developed, uh, which uh I've admired for years. Again, this donor-centered model, this relationship-driven rather than transactionally driven approach uh to fundraising, which uh from where we started before unlocks all of this potential uh to really get into what people care about the most and makes them willing to talk more substantially about the full range of potential ways in which they can provide support, uh, which they're not going to do if all you've asked for and all that they do in response is just write a check, which could be a tiny fraction of what they're capable of doing in support of your organization.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

You know, uh, so then uh this this platform uh uh uh are the uh the clients of the platform the nonprofit or the donor or some combination?

SPEAKER_00 9:20

It's a great question. So again, this whole framework is donor-centered. We we have a framework that we call optimal giving, and it's a triad. Uh, and at the top of the triad is the donor. They're the hero of the story, they're the center of the process because ultimately our work as fundraisers uh is about them accomplishing and achieving some higher purpose or calling that they see being able to express through our organization and the work that we do. And so if they're the hero of the story and the center of the process, we as nonprofit fundraisers are the guides. We're there to help them uh along that path and fulfill their quest, whatever it is. Uh, there's a third uh set of folks involved in these higher-level giving conversations, and those are the professional advisors, the attorneys, the accountants, the wealth managers who also serve and support the donors and help them fulfill their objectives, whatever those are. And so the framework, again, uh recognizes the fact that those folks uh all need to be involved in achieving the the best possible outcome for a gift.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

So the primary client for you is the organization?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

So the the way that we've developed this system, uh the the donor is the focus of the effort. It's their personal giving identity, emphasis on the word personal. Uh it's about them. It's an expression of who they are and what their priorities and preferences are. But our client customer, so to speak, uh are the nonprofit fundraisers who are engaged in that guiding process. And also the professional advisors, particularly our colleagues in professional advisory work, uh, who are charitably and philanthropically focused in the clients that they serve and in the work that they do. In both of those cases, having this underlying frame of reference, this understanding and awareness of who that person is and what their priorities and preferences are really enables both the fundraisers and the advisors to do their work to its fullest.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Um do you have a graphic you can show us?

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Uh I have uh a graphic of this optimal giving uh relationship, which I will uh call up. Thank you, uh, for the invitation. Uh there we go, screen share. Uh on the screen there.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

All right, we're there. All right.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

So this optimal giving framework, uh, again, and it it uh it's very much of a piece with uh your work uh and uh with the underlying uh eight principles that you uh share. Uh the donor is the center of this conversation. It's their intentions, uh their purpose, uh aligned with their capacity that ultimately is the key to success. Uh and uh if we're doing our jobs well as nonprofit fundraisers, we're investigating, exploring, and discovering what those uh intentions are and what that capacity is uh in our connections with the donor. And then we're the the the uh conduit that then aligns those interests, that purpose uh with the opportunities and capabilities that our organization offers when it comes to fulfilling those purposes. So, how are we as an institution able to help them achieve their uh quest, uh, their objective? And again, we bring our professional advisor colleagues uh along when appropriate to make sure that the structures and strategies are in place to help that process achieve its full potential. And so there's two underlying aspects of this optimal giving framework. The first is the personal giving identity, which I referenced. Again, what are those drivers? What is the underlying purpose, the priorities and preferences of the giver? The second is also an important question, and certainly one I'm sure that our uh fundraisers will appreciate. Uh, it's also an introduction into a conversation, a thoughtful structured conversation with a donor about their potential giving capacity. We actually have a calculator that we offer that enables the fundraiser or advisor or the donor themselves, depending on how the tool is shared, uh, to do some basic calculations about them accomplishing every important financial objective they have in their lives, from their own needs to their family to their legacy, uh, incorporating a healthy margin of safety. And then what the calculator shows is either on an annual basis or as uh an end-of-life gift, what their giving capacity is. Uh, and the number tends to be much larger than people anticipate. Uh, and so again, it reframes the whole conversation around giving in a productive way.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

Well, I think we spoke about this uh, about the whole idea that you know, the research that's been doing been done, if you're simply uh going for the immediate cash gift or cash equivalent gift, you're giving out of income primarily, um, you're only approaching about 15% of what's truly available to more or less any nonprofit, any constituency. Um, have you found this to be uh an easy sell with a nonprofit or a hard sell with a nonprofit? Or somewhere in between.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

So these are new resources and capabilities. We've got a wonderful group of partners uh that we've aligned with uh nonprofits, large and small, uh, in order to bring these tools out into the worlds. Uh the platform through which nonprofits can access the resources I've described uh is called Advance. And for anyone who's curious, you can learn more at wisegenerosity.com. And there's the section there that will take you to the advanced platform. Uh we have uh in the works the professional advisor version, which is going to be called Deepen, and which we plan to launch at in 2026. So these are resources that are finding their way into the very successful organizations, and we're seeing real-time evidence of how the needle is being moved on conversations with donors, uh, either new donors or potential donors, uh, or donors that perhaps have been part of the organization for a period of time, but there's an understanding or awareness that they have a higher level of capacity uh than they've previously demonstrated. Uh, and likewise uh uh that those higher capacity, higher potential commitment donors that you really want to develop. And let's uh you know be honest, it's uh fundraising is a difficult uh enterprise, there's a lot of demands, organizations depend on our ability as professionals to generate resources. Uh, there's a lot of effort that goes into determining who the highest potential donors are and then how to build the relationships, Larry, that you emphasize uh so well in your work uh to build those relationships to the point where they have the potential to achieve their full capacity to become optimal giving relationships using the framework that we have in mind. And so these resources are really designed to help with that progression. We talk about being able to catalyze, accelerate, and amplify results when it comes to donor engagement. Uh, and so that's what we're seeing take place. We've got a lot of examples of how that might work, uh, but uh underlying all of this, again, is this basic presumption that uh donors want to feel more a sense of alignment and purpose with their own values and their own vision. And if we're the uh if we as fundraisers uh offer them a tool and a resource that enables them to have that sense of self-awareness and then come alongside them in conversations about how to apply that purpose and translate it into practice through our organization and doing whatever good they want to do in the world, that sets the stage for an incredibly successful long-term relationship where you go far beyond just a transactional gift into something that's uh truly transformational for both the donor and the organization.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Um I like to say, well, I think we've said that you know, philanthropy isn't about money, money's involved, but it's not about the money. And uh the irony of that is, of course, is that way too often a nonprofit will make it precisely about the money. And they are focused on that number. Um, and they're under this, uh, the fundraiser comes under this pressure to achieve that number uh for some purpose. We don't know how that what's going on there, but we see that more and more. And then um, you know, you work with high net worth people, um, you see some of the frustrations that they encounter dealing with nonprofit organizations. Um uh I can tell some more stories, but I'd love for you to tell one for the purpose of this.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Well, you know, it's it's funny because it somewhat cuts both ways, uh, truth be told. Uh and having had this unusual perspective of of sitting on both sides of this process, uh working with donors and uh having raised money uh myself as a fundraiser, uh I think suboptimal outcomes happen for a variety of reasons. One is that uh the reality of the incentives that you described, Larry, and that organizations need money. Uh, they're the lifebread uh of work that we do. They're what makes the programs uh that we are engaged in possible. Everyone's aware of that. Uh uh, and I think we've all seen uh organizations that handle that the necessity of needing to raise money either thoughtfully, strategically, and relationally, or superficially, uh selfishly and transactionally. Uh and so much of your work really involves around appreciating that distinction uh and helping folks go from one side of that uh equation to the other in terms of how their uh their own work is oriented. The uh an example of that superficial uh transactional uh kind of engagement uh was um uh working with uh a well-known nonprofit organization here in Atlanta, uh was uh helping to advise them on engaging with some of their wealthiest uh donors. And in fact, was in a private meeting uh with one of their largest, in fact, their very largest uh benefactor, uh, an organization and uh a person represented an organization that's well known. Uh, if I said who it was, all of your listeners would know. Uh and the comment that was made by the donor in that meeting was something I'll never forget. She said, you know, I'm tired of being treated as an ATM at the intersection of you have money and we need money. Let that sink in for a moment. So here is someone who's literally been involved in giving hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars, and in this case, to an extraordinarily good cause. And she was not, to be uh to be clear, uh sort of tarring the host of our meeting with that brush. She was actually more complimenting them on the fact that she and her family felt a very strong tie to that organization because of the wonderful relationship that had been nurtured and developed going back many, many years. Uh, and it was truly a collaborative partnership that they had together, and a tremendous amount of good had been done as a result. Uh, but the in contrast to that was this alternative experience that she'd had, where again, someone was just treating her as a checkbook uh and wasn't interested in uh anything from her beyond the dollar amount uh that she was able to provide. And what is what a striking contrast that is between the longtime successful partnership that the donor and the organization had and this other experience that she had had all too often with uh with groups that were less uh collaborative and less relationally oriented.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Um let's talk a minute about um uh the influence of technology. You know, the the uh the big buzz term, AI. Okay, generative AI to be specific. Um you and I are old enough to remember the first um income asset scans. Um I think uh uh Ben Swade was the first one that did that donor something now that they called it. I forgot what it was. And that was back in the 90s when that first made. And it's it's and they've been several iterations since. Um there's you know a couple of big independent for-profits that are providing these services now. Um, but then they've gone one up from that. And that is not only are they going to do a scan of the publicly available records, now they've got into this interpretive stuff where they use um an algorithm to the point where, and I've heard this in one of the one of the vendors of this, actually use in their ad copy that they can tell you who to ask money for, when, how much, and for what, and under what circumstances. Now, I I first of all, human nature is not rational. We know that. Okay, it's just not rational. People do all kinds of crazy stuff for various reasons. And uh for them to make that kind of assertion is well, I'm an I'm a trained engineer, Chris. You know, I've done this sort of thing. I know the limits of those systems. I know the limits of those systems, and yet they present this stuff as though it were magic. Um and so uh but they're so willing to um to buy uh nonprofits are so willing to buy these services and follow them blindly. Uh have you seen that impact yourself in in your work? Have you seen the impact of this?

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Uh have. Uh and actually just did a post recently about uh this uh and the fact that we may be asking the wrong questions uh as we're going down some of these paths. Uh even the name artificial intelligence is suggestive uh because uh it imagines uh being smarter and faster and more efficient. Uh whereas efficiency, and we've learned this in many ways in our world over the course of the last five years, I think it was one of the main lessons of COVID. We lived in a just-in-time world that was driven by efficiency, uh, but what it had lost track of was resiliency. Uh and if you want to translate that into fundraising, uh, you can point to the potential for us to get more efficient and more targeted and for the algorithms to be more and more effective at parsing data. Uh, but are we doing that in service to the kind of relational collaborative fundraising that you and I are describing? How can that set of inputs lead to that output? Uh, put another way, and more simply, uh uh I haven't seen yet the technology that is donor-focused, donor-centered, or donor-driven that serves the kind of purpose that the wise generosity resources that I described earlier serve. In fact, when I first started sharing some of these resources with colleagues in the field, the head of advancement for one of the uh largest uh and most uh well-known independent schools uh in the southeast, uh, literally took us, uh, you know, leaned back, uh, exhaled, and said, What's amazing about this is it actually puts the donor at the center of the conversation. She said, We spend all of this money on profiling tools and systems and other things that are really designed to help us figure out who has money and how much, but none of them actually ask the donor, what do you care about and what are you interested in? And if we're missing that piece of the question and of the conversation, then we're not gonna get very far. And all the intelligence and technology in the world is ultimately futile uh if you don't put the donor at the center of that conversation. And so the great contrast between artificial intelligence uh is wise generosity. Uh and wise uh is an acronym, it stands for well-grounded, inspired, satisfying, and effective. Uh, and in the same way that's that's clever, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

That is did you did you dream that up?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Uh did indeed.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

All right.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Uh the uh the in the same way that I think our society doesn't pay adequate attention to wisdom, wisdom is what the ancients prized. Uh, it was a combination of values and experience. It reflected what was important to you and also reflected the the kind of uh life you'd lived and the things that you'd learned along the way. Uh, you know, uh gray hairs uh are valued uh in societies uh over time because you learn things along the way. And part of what you learn is what's important and what isn't, and how to connect with people in ways that are meaningful, uh, and other things that uh that technology just doesn't really help us much with. And so I do worry, to get back to your question, that there's a lot of effort uh and application potentially of these new tools and resources, but they're not necessarily leading down the path that leads to the kind of fulfilling transformational relationships that hopefully all of our listeners and viewers want to be having with their donors. Uh, and that's really what eight principles are designed to help promote. Uh, and that's uh what wise generosity aims to do, likewise.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

Yeah, I um I just uh unfortunately for from my from my viewpoint, there are way too many nonprofit leaders who are technologically naive. Um, and they they really latch on to this because um they want clarity, they want immediacy. Um and let's face it, human nature's messy, Chris. Uh things aren't all that clear and they're not that concise. And it takes, you know, getting there is often a very circuitous route to achieve what we're hoping to achieve, and it takes time, and it takes um, well, I would say an honest interest in the investor.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

An honest interest in the investor. I love that, Larry. And that really is the key to this. I I'm gonna share another uh uh item if if you don't mind. I think it might add some clarity for our uh viewers and listeners. Uh, some of these things are I'm describing around wise generosity, tools, and resources may seem interesting but abstract. I'm gonna make that more concrete, if I may. And again, it comes back to this idea of wise. A wise gift that's well grounded, inspired, satisfying, and effective is one that's that's thoughtfully prepared. Uh, it's uh highly motivated, uh, it ultimately produces uh, and so those are the inputs. That's the W in the I. And then the output that it produces are satisfying to the donor, and that ought to be our number one objective uh as fundraisers is to produce outcomes that help our investors uh feel that they are so happy that they provided the resources that we needed to do our work and are honored and excited to be part of it. And that will happen in part because we're good stewards of those resources. We fulfill our promises and we produce effective outcomes. Uh, but all of this gets back to this idea of a donor-focused model, uh, which aligns with both of our approaches to this work. Uh, and I'm gonna uh share the screen uh to give uh uh our audience a better sense of what this personal giving identity is that I referenced before. Again, it's a concept that unless you'd heard me speak before uh or had come across wise generosity in some other context, you're not gonna be familiar with. Uh and so uh with that in mind, uh allow me to share the following. Uh so uh uh this is an example of a personal giving identity profile. Happens to be my own. Uh and again, this is the result of a 22-question uh patent pending survey that takes about five minutes to complete. It's simple, it's multiple choice, and people love doing things like this. It's why Myers Briggs and Enneagram and Disk and all of these other frames of reference that are at in the world and have worked their way into applications in various ways, professionally and personally, are so popular and so enduring, is because people love this sense of self-discovery and self-awareness. But as a practitioner and someone who'd been in this space for a long time, both as a fundraiser and as an advisor, realized that there wasn't anything similar that addressed giving. Wouldn't it be great to have such a resource? And when the Wise Generosity book was published, we took some of the key frames of reference about being an effective uh giver, and we built them into this tool that we're now making available uh widely. So personal giving identity. Uh in my case, there there are, well, in every case, there are four components uh to PGI as we call it. Uh, what is your generosity personality type? Uh, what is your preferred expression of giving? What is your primary driver of giving? And then what is your underlying motivation for giving? And in my case, I'm an expressive problem solver, intuitive, and convicted giver. Well, that that's difficult to digest unless you have the context. And so appreciating that uh we'll just spend a minute on this, uh, more as uh an introduction, and again, folks can follow up to learn more through our website at wisegenerosity.com. Uh, these elements of personal giving identity in these four categories. First is generosity personality type. Well, there are four personality types. Givers are either focused, expressive, considerate, or disciplined. They're either get to the point, tell me what you want, and let me decide, which is focused. They're expressive, which means that they're story-driven, connective. Uh, they want to really be feel a part of whatever cause it is that they're involved with. Considerate givers are more thoughtful, compassionate, uh, definitely people-oriented and conscientious. They tend to take longer to make up their minds about giving. But once they give, they tend to be the most committed out of all the uh types. And then disciplined givers are like your engineers. They're very much process-driven, practical, and outcome-oriented. So imagine walking into a conversation with a donor that you don't know or don't know well. Armed with just that piece of information, you have a great starting point to make sure that that conversation is as productive and effective as it could be. And if you want to test that out for yourself, uh uh as an intro to the whole advanced platform that I referenced earlier, if you go to the Wise Generosity webpage, there's a resources section and there is a seven question quiz, uh, which is in essence a highlight of the overall personal giving identity assessment that allows you or anyone else to determine your generosity personality type. So I encourage folks to go there and check that out as an introduction into the system. The other elements, just very quickly, uh, your expression of giving, are you more people focused or more of a problem solver? In other words, are you more charitable or more philanthropic in terms of the giving that you do? Your driver of giving is how you make giving decisions. Uh, are you more head-driven or more heart-driven? You more emotional or more analytic in the case.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Well, and I would like to suggest. I would I'd like to suggest that it's it's never a hundred zero in either way. It's uh that it's a mixture, it's a scale, goes back and forth. Keep going. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Oh, no worries. Uh and you're absolutely right in that as well, Larry. In fact, that this basic output that I'm sharing here uh basically shows what the leading element is in each of these different categories. Um, there is a more sophisticated version, which uh we're in the process of finalizing that will actually break down all of this analysis uh into a more uh refined uh version where you would actually show on each scale uh from zero to ten, with five being in the middle, where are you? Uh and for instance, my expression of giving is very closely balanced between being people helping and being problem solving. Uh and a lot of others might be the same, or you might be really one towards one side or the other. Uh the the last piece uh of the four is uh motivation for giving, uh, which uh is a shorthanded way of evaluating how experienced and committed someone is to the giving process. And there's a hierarchy of four different uh outputs there: compulsion, connection, conviction, and compassion. And one of the wonderful things about fundraising, and one of the drivers of this whole system, uh, is the idea that as guides, and I used that word before, I believe, fundraisers in essence are guides. Again, our donors are the heroes on a grand quest to make the world better. And we have this tremendous opportunity to come alongside them and get to know them and support them in that uh effort and to help introduce the aspects of our organization that are going to be the most fulfilling to them in their in their generosity journey. One of the things that we also are able to do in that process is to help them get better at giving. Uh, and so motivation in particular is not fixed. As time goes on, and as people get more familiar with and more comfortable with their giving, it gets more wise, well-grounded, inspired, satisfying, and effective. And one of the great blessings and benefits that we have potentially as fundraisers is to help folks along the journey. And it's often not just an individual, of course, uh, it could be a couple or an entire family. And we've got variations of this personal giving identity tool uh that help to uh show how couples align or how whole families uh align in terms of their individual and collective approach to giving. And so all these are ways in which, again, we're putting the donor at the center of the process. Uh, we're enabling and empowering them to be as successful and effective as possible in accomplishing their objectives. And we we get to be part of that, and of course, our organizations get to benefit uh from really building those long-term sustainable transformational relationships.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Now, as I looked at this, uh in my mind, I was thinking, okay, uh, I can hear a nonprofit now saying, Well, this works well and good if you're just going for the quote big money and we have to start somewhere and blah, blah, blah, blah. I would think, and this is a question, I just just an idea. I would think that if you were sophisticated enough, you could actually develop different profiles of your of your um uh direct mail and social media work that would fit these things that would enable you to draw people with the different profiles.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Absolutely, Larry. Again, a great great minds think alike.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

Uh because see, that would go against some of the typical um ways of dividing your your larger constituency, you know, the the LIBON, Cybond, all based on renewal, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, that that works to a point, but it doesn't attack any of this, uh, which is when you get into the serious giving, because even the quote, serious givers don't start at that level.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

That's exactly right. So if if our donor development process is something of a you know, a funnel, uh, analogy gets used often. And you know, we're looking to put people in at the top of that. There, what is the intake and the input? Uh, and then how do we engage with them and work them through a process of getting to know them better, having them be more involved with our organization? As we get to know them better, we figure out who has the high capacity or high commitment. Uh, that would be uh those would be the relationships that we would want to spend the most time cultivating, and ultimately getting to the point where we're we're working on the transformational gifts, uh, which to some degree are the people that have the highest capacity, or I would argue the highest commitment. As you know, we all know that you know the classic plan gift profile uh is a donor that may have been given for years and years at relatively small amounts, but doesn't have children, uh and feels this high level of commitment to the organization. Uh, and as a result, uh is a perfect candidate for someone to make uh who might be interested in making a legacy gift. So we have to be able to figure all that out. But to your point, let's just look specifically at the generosity personality types, which is the best practice that we have been working with uh our partners and uh and subscribers now uh to help them implement. Uh, if you through different channels uh uh as part of a thank you for a donor who's made an initial contribution, uh, as uh part of the welcome package that you give to someone who's volunteered or visited your organization for the first time, uh, whatever it is, is you're beginning that process of engaging with folks. If you include the generosity personality type as part of that uh initial donor engagement process, and you uh encourage them to do the seven questions. Again, it takes 60 to 90 seconds. Uh, tends to be something that they're interested in and curious about. Our subscribers get an alert when someone has completed that process and are able to then file the resulting personality type into their uh donor management system. Uh and what we're working with folks to do is then to start to segment their communications subsequently based on these four different profiles. So rather than sending out a single generic uh end-of-year appeal, uh, for instance, uh, as an email or even as printed correspondence, uh, you would send four different versions, each of which would be focused on the particular personality types uh of the four different personalities.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

I love this. And you can actually um uh make this available to your uh giving constituency as a service.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

And um and I would think, and I'm just I would think that the uh what I would call uh uh the mission-directed organizations that would include faith-based organizations, uh, would find this very appealing to make it uh available to their to their uh giving uh constituencies.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Uh absolutely and and we have a set of resources that are developed specifically for faith forward organizations uh to uh align those sort of values-driven kind of spiritual frames of reference into this system. For instance, for organizations that are Jewish or Christian, uh we have a presentation that shows how the generosity personality types relate to biblical figures. Uh uh and so people can sort of picture themselves as a certain type of giver uh along with uh a character that they'd be familiar with uh from the Bible. Uh uh same thing can be done in other contexts uh as well. So uh I think you and uh our audience have the sense what what this is all designed to do is really help provide frames of reference uh that are donor-focused and donor-centered and that are going to enable us to do our work better, to communicate more effectively, to build relationships more quickly, that end up being stronger relationships that uh ultimately lead to larger gifts uh and more sustained success for our organizations. And at the end, these are the fundamental building blocks of having those types of transformational relationships.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

So uh when this when you have um a faith-based individual uh with means, um they um uh they they feel um a compulsion, uh sometimes a burden um to be mindful about what they're doing. Um and um you know, and you know, I'm I'm shifting slightly here. You know, a lot of the uh uh the uh wealth management uh community, uh the financial management community, this is something that they're not comfortable with. They don't know they don't know where to go with this because they're focused on the on the on the numerical. Aspects of it. And then a lot of them are just flat out ignorant of what's available in terms of the giving different vehicles, giving vehicles and how that would accomplish certain means. So if you have a wealth manager who's focused totally on tax avoidance, that's a very small slice of what these people are concerned about. In fact, I mean the numbers I've always seen place primary motivation for tax avoidance down around number 20 or 21. And that's why I always kind of smile to myself, Chris, every time they change the deductibility rules in DC, and there's a whole swath of the non-copit community that goes into meltdown. And I'm like, just just stop right now. Just stop. That is such, such uh, what is it? What's the word I'm looking for? Um you know, a red herring. It's such a red herring.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

I think the economists would call that a marginal driver of uh gifting decisions, uh, particularly for our more generous donors. But uh, I imagine many of our listeners have had an experience where perhaps they did build a strong relationship with a donor. Uh, and there was discussion underway about a significant gift. Uh, and that uh donor in turn took that outlined opportunity back to their advisor uh who dumped cold water on it for some reason. And often that's because they didn't really understand what was going on, they didn't want to be outside their area of competence uh or comfort. Um and uh uh and in extreme cases, there are even misaligned incentives uh along those lines. If you're a wealth manager paid for assets under management and you're encouraging clients to give away assets, that's uh somewhat counterproductive to your business. Uh so one of my major objectives uh is to be an advocate within the professional world among peers who are wealth managers or accountants or attorneys to help encourage and support them in being able to have these kinds of conversations with their clients more effectively, which in turn further reinforces the excellent work that so many fundraisers do in helping to create these opportunities and to work collaboratively and consultatively with donors. And there are groups out there uh like Plan Giving Councils in various communities. And I've been active here in Georgia, in the Georgia Plan Giving Council for many years. Uh, those are forums, if you're not involved with those already, outside of some of the other professional organizations that fundraisers might be involved in, the plan giving councils uh exist to bring professional advisors and fundraisers together uh to uh mutually reinforce each other's work uh in helping clients make substantial transformational uh planned or legacy gifts. Uh and so uh shout out to my friends in the in the uh plan giving worlds uh uh who are involved in those organizations because they do a lot of good. Uh, but there are many other advisors, to your point, Larry, that just don't understand this. Uh and part of my hope is that we can give them some tools and resources and a level of comfort and confidence so that they don't stand in the way of good being done through their clients being able to make substantial gifts.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Um well, I I'm an abundance guy. And one thing that I believe is that by being uh adopting an abundant frame of reference, whether it's directly related to money or relationships or opportunities, whatever it is, um that if you are uh feel that there's more than enough for everyone, and that by being abundant in your point of view, abundance comes back to you. Um but that can be a difficult sell to someone who's zero sum. Um and especially a financial advisor who sees it only in terms of uh near-term balance sheets. Um, and that can be difficult.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Um it is uh a challenge, uh, and I'll give you uh another example uh if I may, because uh that this is something that I'm concerned about uh with the the whole profession of uh professional advisory work uh is based on what I think is uh uh a misunderstanding of the nature and purpose uh of wealth. Uh so having made that provocative statement, uh I'll uh share another uh screen uh to illustrate the point. Uh if you uh are involved in financial planning, for instance, uh there's an underlying assumption into most financial planning uh that uh the purpose of the planning itself uh is uh to create a graph that looks something like this, uh, which is I uh I call the fallacy of limitless upward sloping wealth.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Uh that's a mouthful, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

It is a mouthful. Uh but I want people to kind of uh trip over that a bit as they process what it means. Uh perhaps uh our audience has participated in a financial planning process themselves. Perhaps they've seen the output uh of such financial planning models that uh people like me uh and my colleagues in the field produce. But many, if not most of them, particularly for people of considerable means, look something like this. Uh, where as they start out and as compounding takes over over time, the line keeps sloping upward and upward and upward because the person does not have enough money, I mean has enough money that they're not going to spend it all during their lifetime. Uh uh and uh they may have some amount that they want to pass along to family, uh, but depending on how much they have, you have to start asking questions about well, how much. Uh and the the whole point of this graft is to say uh is the point of you having wealth just to hold on to it so there is as much as possible when you die. Uh and then what?

SPEAKER_02 50:44

And by the way, when you say that, there are people who just, even though they would disagree with this statement, they tacitly believe they're not going to die.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Well, that's another topic. Uh but uh, you know, in in our planning work, we we try to to uh and again gently, carefully, respectfully introduce a couple of different concepts, which at their heart, uh Larry, are abundance-driven uh frames of reference. Uh the first working title of the book that became wise generosity was actually the abundance imperative, which was rejected partly because it was also a mouthful. Uh, but also uh the topic grew more broadly to involve generosity as a whole. But this idea of having an abundance mindset versus a scarcity mindset, I think, is one of the key decisions each of us make in life. And it is a choice. Uh, and it's a choice that we reinforce and and develop as a habit. But ultimately, we we get to decide whether we want to live with an open hand uh or not. Uh and uh part of that in the context of wealth, and I'm presenting this in part just as a frame of reference for our audience, as they're thinking about the clients with whom they're working, they may have had these thoughts themselves at one point, thinking, well, gosh, uh, I know, you know, you're you're writing me uh a check for this amount. Put aside the fact that it probably should be an appreciated asset rather than a check. Uh, but I'm, you know, imagine, or what my screening system tells me here is that you're worth vast amounts. I I think it might be easy for us to look down on the very wealthy uh who aren't as generous as they could or should be. Um, but a lot of it's because they just don't have the frames of reference that a lot of what wise generosity is designed to do, to both present them with a sense of identity and purpose around giving, but also in that potential giving capacity side to unlock the their sense of potential in their ability to give and not even sacrificially give, still accomplish the material things that they've decided that they want. Of course, the the most generous people are the people that give sacrificially and are willing to curtail their own uh needs and opportunities for the sake of benefiting others. Certainly, that those are many of the folks that I admire the most in terms of their generosity. But the idea of this graph ultimately is is this line just supposed to go up and up and up forever until it ends? Or are we supposed to start to use money for the benefit of those we care about earlier in life when they can benefit from it more than when we're dead? Uh, because hopefully, if we've lived a good long life, by the time we're passed away, our kids are going to be pretty advanced in age also. Yes. It would have been most helpful to help them when they were younger in life and might have needed more help.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

Uh and then Yeah, not now.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

Not now when their their financial circumstances are all pretty well sorted out, hopefully. Uh maybe it's kid grandkids or or great-grandkids at that point, but but uh even beyond loved ones, you know. Warren Buffett is retiring as the head of uh Berkshire Hathaway uh today, uh uh as a legend uh and one of the wealthiest people in the world. Uh he famously said uh at one point, and it should be the motto of any financial planner, uh, that he wanted uh, particularly the one who's working with very wealthy people, that his goal was to uh provide enough money for his children that they could do anything they want, but not enough, not so much that they could do nothing.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

Uh he was asked, he he was asked at one point when he made that pledge, that that that pledge to to bait Gates or whatever, you know. Um he was asked, Well, why are you not giving any more money to your children? And his response was, What? And make them crazy?

SPEAKER_00 54:48

So uh, you know, uh all of this gets back to wisdom uh ultimately. What is why? How do we treat ourselves? How do we provide for our families in ways that are thoughtful? Uh it's not too much and not too little. Uh, and then ultimately, how did we do good? Uh, because within this framework, there's uh there's a sense uh in which, and I think there's a slide uh here in this uh deck, which by the way was one I did for uh the local estate planning council here. This was a presentation earlier in the year for a group of attorneys, uh uh encouraging them to be as focused in on charitable and philanthropic planning as possible and giving them some resources to use in that regard. But this idea that most of our money is for ourselves with the family, and then maybe some going to other causes, that's how most people think. Uh but those that I know who are truly generous and who I would argue are truly wealthy kind of flip that script. Uh, they certainly, in most cases, don't deprive themselves and live perfectly comfortable lives, uh, but they're not extravagant. It's the old millionaire next door mentality. Uh they provide a legacy for their families, but one that's reasonable and in keeping with what will be beneficial to their children rather than detrimental. And if uh they have lots of money, uh, that leaves lots of money uh available to do good in the world. Uh and that's one of the great blessings and benefits of my professional life, is I get to help uh individuals and families engage in these kinds of planning uh uh opportunities in ways that uh produce what hopefully are truly beneficial outcomes, optimal outcomes for everyone involved.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

I was um um I'm thinking of people who um have um there are what I'd call um uh high-earning self-employed professionals. All right. Uh a big a big group of that would be physicians, as an example. Okay, now the medicine's becoming a little more corporate and this kind of thing, but still, uh I've talked to some people, or even people who own businesses, another crew, another group, um, where they have deliberately and consciously said, okay, I need only X to live on each year. And yet I'm generating X plus. Um, what do I do with the plus? And uh and I remember I'm thinking of a very specific gentleman who I worked with, um, physician. And at the time he, I forgot it was some specialty in in medicine. And he at the time, this was 20 years ago, he was generating like five or six hundred a year, and he said, All I need's 200 to live on or 150. So what do I do with the rest of this? You see, and he didn't want to just stack it up in the storehouse. Well, he was a Christian man. What what's what's the parable? Why do you need to build bigger and bigger storehouses? What are you gonna do with it? What's gonna happen? You know, uh uh uh don't you know that your your life's gonna be demanded of you tomorrow? Hello? Uh what are you doing this for? And he was already in tune with that. But I think a lot of people just haven't thought that far ahead, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

Yeah. And I think circling back again to our audience, I think it's one of the great benefits that really good fundraisers provide, particularly those who get to work in this higher-end gift planning space where you're having these types of strategic conversations with people of means, and you are providing them with an incredible service, enabling them to think through some of these questions and provide perspectives and frames of reference. Uh you're able to take advantage of some of the tools uh that are out there in the world to support the conversations, including some uh that are available through wise generosity. Uh and um, for me personally, that's the most satisfying work that I can do uh is to be involved in those higher level thoughtful conversations that are focused again on wisdom. How do I, and wisdom is is often a question of balance, right? There are there are current needs and there are future needs. There uh are competing influences and priorities. How do you account for all of those in a thoughtful, sensible way and orient your purpose so that it can achieve practical uh effect? Uh the subtitle of the Wise Generosity book is a guide to purposeful and productive living and giving. Uh, it really is about the essence of what makes life meaningful uh and worthwhile uh and hopes to be a reference. The book's not written for professionals, it's written for the public. Uh, it's written to give someone of any age or stage of life a sense of purpose and power that comes from being generous, and not just with money. Uh, there are five different types of generosity that are covered in the book. Possessional generosity is just the first of those, and frankly, the least significant. Uh, the others are personal generosity, which is time and talent, social generosity, which is everything from hospitality and manners to civic duty, uh, emotional generosity, which is getting close to home, being available and accessible and even vulnerable to the people that we're close to. And ultimately, all of those feed into the highest form of generosity, which was relational generosity. Uh, and really the uh the uh our our lives uh come back to the quality of the relationships that we have and the people that we're surrounded by, uh and uh to be uh a representative of a nonprofit organization that's able to build a relationship, kind of coming full circle in the conversation, uh, to draw someone into an opportunity to participate in the important work that our organization is doing, life-changing, life-giving work in many cases. Uh, that's an incredible gift. Uh, and I know there are, you know, folks outside the profession, many view fundraising as something kind of scary. And gosh, how could you do that? I I don't think there's anything that could be more fulfilling and rewarding than than than uh proper fundraising uh well done and and wisely done, because it it taps into everything that's essential and good about life. Uh, and again, it helps someone else fulfill a quest.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:38

Uh absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

Uh and does good all the while for for our organization that's doing something important and meaningful. And uh again, I I've I always found that to be incredibly rewarding. Uh, and I hope and expect that our audience does likewise.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

Well, um, you know, I I I I tell people that um the number one roadblocke to being an effective fundraiser, whether professional or lay, is having a dysfunctional view of money, not knowing what it really is supposed to serve, what it what's its what its relationship with you, with others. Um, yeah, they don't. Oh, and then in the more unsophisticated uh uh markets, um, what you know how money can be used uh and how it can be used in ways that are pretty creative and where literally everybody wins. Everybody wins. Um here I want to get in. I love what you've done. I love this. Okay, and we're gonna talk more about how we might work together later, but um uh my little shtick is what we call the triple wind, where we have the community up here, it's an Isoselis triangle, community here, you have the philanthropist or the donors here, and you have the nonprofit here, and all three parties um are involved, and they all should win, but for different reasons. That's right. For instance, the philanthropist is fulfilling something that's very essential to them in fulfilling their life, they have a reason for doing this by giving to a through, I like to say, a nonprofit, um, they are facilitating that. The nonprofit benefits because they can then execute on their mission. And then the community benefits because they're the recipients of that. So they all three benefit for different reasons. So I'll often add an uh I'll ask a nonprofit executive so who are your customers? And of course, I get a lot of what really are the people they benefit. You see, this whole idea of shareholders, stakeholders. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, your customers are the philanthropists who provide the engine of growth, the financial resources to make this possible. And that's who your customers are. You should be focused on focused on them in a way that make that possible, that makes that possible. And so as a result of that, you know, your those who benefit are your benefactors, your recipients, the people who benefit from this. So there you go. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:21

That may be a great uh place to end, uh, Larry and I uh often begin presentations with a very similar framework. And I love that model that you just shared. Uh we phrase a lot of what we do in terms of transformational generosity. Uh, and the idea about optimal giving is that it truly is transformational in ways that no other human behavior that I know is, because of the 360-degree benefit that everyone who participates in the process receives from it. So our framework is an upward sloping line. Uh uh, and at the at the base it says giving changes the giver for the better, it changes the receiver for the better, it changes the community of which they're a part for the better, and ultimately it changes the world for the better. Uh and that kind of transformational power really does make giving something that's uh a uniquely powerful and positive human behavior. Uh, I know uh I'm probably preaching to the choir for our audience in in terms of uh seeing the work that they do in those terms. Uh, but I'd like to tip my hat to our audience and just say to each of you, thank you for the part that you play in creating those opportunities for transformation through your work. And thank you, Larry, uh, for providing the platform and this amazing frame of reference, this uh transformational concept built around the eight principles that I know uh everyone would be well served uh to continue to focus on and adopt. And it's certainly been a pleasure to be here with you today.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

Well, likewise, Chris, it's been my pleasure. And I'm sure our audience will find it also of great worth. Um we've been talking to uh Chris Gabriel, who is the proverbial two-headed monster. Um, they do, he has wealth management, and then he also does uh uh this wise generosity, optimal giving. There he is. Hey, you look pretty good in that picture there, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

Here's our wisegenerosity.com website. Uh, anyone who's been uh listening who wants to learn more can can go there and check it out. But thank you uh again, Liz.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Well, you know, uh we're gonna be doing another one of these very soon, our audience. Um, and there'll be somebody else of uh who has a particular point of view and a particular story. And I want to thank you again, Chris, and thank our audience for the time that you've invested in us.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:56

Thank you for listening today. Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest. Guest comments and opinions are their own. The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.