Thank God for Being Unreasonable

What if the skills forged in chaos aren’t flaws to fix, but the strengths our brittle systems need? 

Art Wilson knows chaos intimately. He’s lived through homelessness, addiction, and incarceration—and discovered something most leaders miss: excellence doesn’t live in the safe center. It’s born at the edge of chaos, where complexity scientists say we're most adaptive. 

Through raw, lived stories, Art reveals how chaos trains the skills most organizations and communities desperately need: rapid trust-building, instant threat assessment, and finding resources where others see nothing. He explores the “edge of chaos”, that fertile zone between order and disorder where innovation and resilience emerge. 

Wilson brings lived experience from both sides of this edge, from years of homelessness, addiction and incarceration to an MBA and leadership in nonprofits and business. Drawing on work in shelters, prisons and reentry programs, he offers a clear systems lens for staying adaptive without losing structure. He is a graduate of Nebraska Wesleyan.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Eight Principles Voices. Conversations with those who are making a difference. I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles. Now join me as I welcome this week's guest as they invite us to come along on their journey. Hello, everybody. It's a pleasure to have you back today. And I'm really going to have fun today because I have a guest with me who's going to tell me like it really is, Art Wilson. And I'm not going to tell you too much about him because I want him to tell you. Okay. But let's just say he can be called the author of chaos. Now tell me about that. All right. And he's, I want to I'm going to ask him a little bit about his background. I want to give in his own words. And then uh then we're going to have a nice open conversation about really how you overcome adversity and how you move forward from it. Um, so welcome, Art.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Now, now you've just recently written a book, or you're going to write a book. I know you recently wrote a book, right? Correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:06

I've not, no. I uh I recently did a uh a TEDx talk.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

That's what I'm thinking of. Yeah. And that was what is living through what was the name of that talk? Living through chaos?

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Excellence at the edge of chaos.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Ah, okay, just right on the edge, you know, not jumping into the full-flown thing. All right. Well, you know, obviously that didn't come out of nowhere. Okay, so uh tell uh share with the audience a little bit about just who you are, very briefly, and how you came to be who you are. That's as much as the other.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, absolutely. Uh so currently I am a leadership coach. I live in the Midwest. I do a lot of different things with my life. I enjoy working with incarcerated individuals. So I am an adjunct professor for a local community college. I teach classes at the prison, really enjoy that. And then I work with a local nonprofit as well, helping incarcerated individuals get careers in the culinary industry. So I really, for some reason, is just being inside of a prison is just my vibe. I really enjoy it. I really enjoy working with these people. They're some of the most brilliant and honest and kind people that I've ever encountered in my life. And there's something about that atmosphere that I, you know, there's just no pretense, I think is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

They're not so tell me, you're working with hardened, violent criminals.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Oh maybe. Honestly, I don't I don't know their background.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

All right. So, but you and you're telling me they're kind and compassionate. Now, the comment the the public would go, What, what, what? Um, now what kind of prison are you working in? Is this high security, medium security? What is it?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Uh, the state penitentiary here in Nebraska. I I believe they have you know higher security areas and lower security areas. I believe it's a a high, medium, and a low area facility. The actual like maximum security facility would be in Tecumseh. So that's that's 45 minutes away from from Lincoln where I'm at.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Okay, so that's that's where they keep the really bad guys.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

You know, I've not I've not been there. I uh I've met a guy who teaches classes actually down there and does work down there too.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

So okay. So you said you like the atmosphere. What is it about the atmosphere you like?

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Well, as I said, I think it's just the there's there's no pretense, right? They're they're not trying to impress you. They're not, you know, I teach classes and they're not I've I've taught classes, you know, on the outside in in schools and at uh in a university and at community colleges and things like that. And students are often earbuds in their ears on their laptop during class.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

They're not paying attention. They're just there, you know, asses in the seat to get the grade, to get the degree, to go on to whatever's next. The students that I work with, they're there to learn. They show up, they have ideas, they've read, they've read the material. Like it shocks me that they actually can't say that, Art.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

They've actually read the assignment.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

We have great discussions. Currently, I'm teaching a class on professional selling, and so all my all my students are incarcerated, and we talk a lot about selling things like drugs or cars, or you know, just it's life, it's real life, you know, and we can talk about that stuff there. Whereas, you know, in a college setting, feels like you have to act professional. When you're behind the prison walls, I mean, professionalism kind of even that question of because the class it's called professional selling. The first day they said, What is professional selling? What does professional mean? And I said, You got me, I have no idea what that means. We're gonna talk about how do you sell stuff, right? And it's much more about how do you build relationships with people rather than selling stuff because it's all about relationships anyway.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

So, how do you get these guys to accept you? Because I would imagine that they have what I call a very sensitive bullshit meter.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Okay. How do you how do you get their trust?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Well, you know, I I come from I've never been in prison. You know, I've been incarcerated in a variety of ways. I was actually just thinking about this the other day. Like the first time that I was incarcerated, if you use a strict definition of it, I was in eighth grade. I got arrested for selling pot at school in the eighth grade. And I was I was taken to the police station and I was put into a holding cell, and I was in there for like six hours until my parents came to get me. And I was I was thinking about this for some reason earlier, like yesterday. I was like, when was the first time I actually experienced like being put in a cell and held against my will? I was in eighth grade, and it was only six hours.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

But for someone who's eighth in eighth grade, you're that's pretty doggone young, Art. Six hours felt I mean that says to me you were on the fast track to juvenile delinquency, young man.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Well, at that point, I was I was full-blown juvenile delinquent getting arrested at school, selling drugs. Uh that that was my first and only experience really selling drugs after that. I clearly wasn't good at it. So I I gave I I gave it up. Uh but yeah, so I I you know I tell them a bit about my background. I've I've gosh, I started using drugs when I was in fifth grade. By the ninth grade, I was I was using methamphetamines. I dropped out of high school, I was you know living on the streets at 14. I was homeless and in and out of juvenile facilities. You know, I never, like I said, I've never been in actual prison, adult prison. Uh, but I spent quite a bit of time in and out of the juvenile facilities as a child. I actually was incarcerated in a juvenile facility for I think it was 95 days total. That was the maximum amount they could give me because they let me out on my 18th birthday. And they handed me $2.50 and my property and said, here you go. And I I got on the city bus and rode the bus home to my mom's house, which I ended up getting kicked out a few days later, anyways. So so I I I give them a brief, you know, hey, I've been there, you know, I've not been in prison, but I've been a drug addict and I've been homeless and I've been incarcerated in a variety of different settings, and I've been in jail as an adult plenty of times, usually a couple of days here and there, never, never long stretches, because honestly, I hate it. And I I grew up in California. The reason I left the state and came to Nebraska where I currently live is because I was gonna end up either dead or in prison. And and honestly, I hate I hate being locked up, and being dead sounded better to me. So I left the state. And a lot of my friends from back then ended up in prison, and some of them are actually dead, and and so it it wasn't a far-fetched that it was gonna happen to me, and I got out because I just I so when you left California, where did you go? Nebraska, here in Nebraska, where I am currently.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

And this is your home state, this is where you grew up, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Uh no, my my mom's family is from Nebraska. I was I lived in uh Kansas for I don't know until sixth grade, and then we moved out west, lived in Arizona a little bit, and then mostly mostly California, most of my life.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

All right. Okay, so so they see in you um have been there, done that sort of realism, and uh um they and you're not going to bullshit them because of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Um I think so. I think it's also you know what I appreciate about it without you know, it's just the lack of pretense, right? Like they're not there to impress me. I I also don't have that in the classroom. I'm not there to convince them that I know everything or that I'm smarter than them or accomplished or that I'm right and they're wrong. I'm just there, honestly. I'm just I'm not I'm I'm not one of them, right? Because I am the teacher and I do have to remain as the teacher in that role. It's a teacher-student relationship. We're not friends and and that kind of stuff. But I I treat them as as people. You know, sometimes when I'm walking out of the facility, the the COs and stuff at the front desk will be like, hey, how was your class? How's it going? Whatever. And I'll tell them, you know, my students, they cr they are craving human connection. And they, you know, because they don't get it from the staff that work in the prison, right? They actually it they it breaks my heart how how atrociously uh incarcerated individuals are treated by staff members in these facilities. And sometimes me too, just as a as a volunteer. Like I get I get treated that way sometimes. Uh like you're not a real person, like you're just a piece of dirt, you know, a piece of trash, a piece of shit. Uh, you're just uh inconvenience to them, whatever it is. Uh so they're craving human connection. And I just I get to go in there and I provide that for them. You know, and teaching in in the prison system is, I mean, the whole teaching handbook goes out the window. Like this is finals week. Today's our actually our last class. And last week we had, you know, a bit of quite a bit of snow here in Nebraska, and I I get a message probably an hour before I'm supposed to leave my house to go to the prison to teach, that there's no school today because the heat in the school building is not working, so we can't have school. It's an old the the state prison here is I don't know, 100 years old. It's super old. They're building a new one, uh, which you know there's a whole lot of shakeup about them building another prison. So but it's an old building, so crap breaks all the time, there's no heat, we can't have school. And then Thursday I was sick, so we missed a whole week of school, and now this is finals week, and so stuff just goes out like there's three or four assignments, like, hey, we just we don't have time to do them because it's not like they can go home and hop on a computer and watch a Zoom recording, or you know, they can't they can't make up work like that because they don't have access to technology, they get some lab time where they can go into the school and use a computer. Uh, but then I got a message on Monday that all of the computers and all of the facilities are being sent to somewhere for some IT upgrades. So they can't even get on computers this week either. So there's no do any of these assignments that should have like a there's a final exam and a paper due, and and it just all goes out the window, you know. Due dates don't exist within prison teaching because places get locked down, students get put in solitary, they can't come to class. It's so much out of their control that essentially, you know, having what I would say is like a punitive consequence attached to that when it's not in their control, you know. I had one student, the CEOs took his textbook early in the term, and he has no idea where it went. Right? They they went into his cell and they tossed it and they took his textbook. And and how's what's he supposed to do about that, right? And we've asked, you know, the school has asked the facility, hey, this textbook, uh, they said you guys took it, where is it? And it's just never come back.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

And so it's an interesting it went into that dark hole to which all things government go usually, um, wherever that is. Um, so how long have you been teaching in the prisons?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Uh currently, this this adjunct role that I'm in the the last year, I started in January of this year, and this is the last day of of winter term, and I'm taking next spring term off. Uh my wife and I are having a baby in you know, May-ish. So I don't want to, you know, if our kid comes a month early, I wouldn't be able to finish the term. So taking off the next term and then probably summer too, because we're gonna have a baby. Uh so I won't it, I won't be teaching again until probably the fall of next year, but I've been doing it all of this year, so twice a week, you know, spring, summer, and now fall term.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

So is this your first child?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Uh no, no. I have I have older children. My oldest lives out in California. Um, and then my middle child lives in Arizona with her mom. And then my wife and I have a toddler, and then what we're having another one.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

So congratulations.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Four for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Okay. All right. You look like a happy, happy dad there. Um tired.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Tired.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Oh, just wait till the baby comes. You think you're tired now. Um, the um um you're back to sleep, you'll be back to sleepless nights again. Um, I am so glad I am past that. Let me tell you. Um, I have three grown daughters, and I do remember those times. Um, my oldest, um uh she there there were times that she, a couple of times that she would wake up in the night and simply could not be comforted. And the only thing that would work was putting her in the back of the car and driving around the neighborhood, literally. And then she would go and go to sleep. And that's when we were living in uh Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, and we lived in a nice suburban community that was very mindful of cars wandering around the streets at 2 33 in the morning. And so on this one evening, this the policeman pulled me over, and I and he came up and I said, and he looked and he said, Oh, okay, have a nice evening, sir. And he just left and I was able to go, so that's a great story. It is. I mean, and nothing would that you know, it'd be one or two times that nothing but that would would soothe her. I don't know what it is about running around in a car in the middle of the night. Um, and uh, but um, and it was it was winter, so the car was toasty. Had to get it nice and toasty for her, you know. So uh I was like, so uh anyway, so this edge of chaos thing, where did that phrase come from?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yeah. The edge of chaos is actually a concept from complexity science, which is like way high. People who are much smarter than me actually understand what this is about. Uh but it its origins are in like cybernetics and computer systems and and how complex systems work with one another. And the chaos is this idea that a complex system is most adaptive and creative and resilient, not when it's completely stable or when it's in complete chaos. So when there's too much stability, a system will stagnate, which is why you know animals in a zoo lay around all day and don't do anything because there's it's too much stability for them. They get three meals a day fed to them, they get toys to play with, you know, it's such a perfect life.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

But what a boring existence.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Well, for a wild animal, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, what a boring existence.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Exactly. So they they stagnate, right? And then too much chaos, absolute chaos, right? The system just collapses. And so either way, if there's if there's too much stability, it eventually will lead to death. The system will will die, it'll stagnate, it won't grow. If there's too much chaos, it will collapse. And so both sides of that are are actually bad for for a system. So the edge of chaos is this space between stability and complete chaos, where you are thriving, you're growing, you are adaptive and resilient and able to overcome whatever life throws at you. And and this is it sums up my life experience because I've I've lived in utter chaos where everything just collapses. You know, I've I've been on the streets and I've I've been in and out of jail, and you know, just losing you, you get a job and it's gone the next week, you you get a place to live and it's gone the next day, just just absolute utter madness type stuff. I've been there and and there's no way to live that way. Like it leads to death. It really does, which is why I said I left California because I was gonna end up dead or in jail. And I've also like when I got sober, which you know was 20 uh 14, and of end of 2014, I I thought stability was the thing, right? Like I'm gonna go to school and I'm gonna get a job and I'm gonna do all the things that that our life, our culture, whoever is out there that kind of society says, you know, get the degree, get the the job, get the car, the house, the family, save up money, like do all of that stuff so that you're stable. And I aspire to that for for many years and realized that shit'll kill me too. That's why you gotta go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

You said that's something too.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I said that shit will kill me too.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, too much stability will uh I'll lose my mind. I will, because I I just can't I need and so I don't need complete chaos, I don't need to completely blow up my entire life, which I'm more than capable of doing, right? Uh, you know, uh when I get that old, you know, sense of feelings coming back up like I used to have back in the day, and I want to punch a hole in a wall or or or light something on fire and just literally cause some chaos, that is usually what landed me in jail back then.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

So I I don't do let me ask you a question about that. See, and I'm I'm this is an honest question because you and I are very different. Um but but I know boy I know guys like you. Yeah, all right. I'm thinking of one in particular, and what is it that would motivate you just to do something crazy? I'm gonna go out and just punch a hole in that wall, or I'm gonna wreck this car, or I'm gonna start that thing on fire, or uh you know, I I mean, I presume you weren't just always starting fist fights. I'm gonna stay a little bit, but probably you were in some of those. Um so what was it? Was it the desire to be different? Was it the desire just to just to raise hell? Uh was it was it frustration? What was going on, Art?

SPEAKER_01 19:55

I you know, it's uh uh all of the above, you know, even even recently, you know, I I told you my wife and I are moving. Yes, not by choice. I mean, it is it is at some level by choice. We are choosing to move, but we are moving because of of the landlord wanting to increase our rent by like six hundred dollars a month, which we can't afford. So essentially being forced out, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:21

So it is our choice not to stay here and you're avoiding bankruptcy by changing your residence. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

But it feels very much like we're being forced out, and the because it's not of your it's not of your you wouldn't have done it otherwise.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

You were happy where you were otherwise, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

And so there's a lot of emotions attached to this. You know, our our daughter is almost two, and this is her home. This is all she's ever known, right? And so there's some some grief around that. Like, this is her home, like she's she's lived here her entire life, she doesn't know anything, and and it's not anything that she has done that has caused this, so she doesn't know what's happening. It's just very sad, but then there's the anger of it. Like, the landlord knows we can't afford that. Like, what are you doing? And there's no conversation about it, it's just a here's the thing, here's what's happening. And so the feelings that come up for me in this, I was talking to to my coach about this, and she says to me, Well, what do you want to do with it? I said, What do I want to do? I said, I want to burn the fucking house down. That's what I want to do. Because it's like, oh, you like you wanna you want to force us out of the house, like you're mad at me for something. Like, I'll give you something to actually be angry about. Because in our in our estimation, in our percepts and uh perception of it all, we didn't do anything to warrant this. You know what I mean? Like, we didn't we didn't do anything to deserve this treatment, and there's not been an explanation behind it as to you know the economy or or taxes or anything. It was just, hey, the rent's gonna be this month starting January. And it wasn't a we were told this like three weeks ago, too. January 1, it's gonna be this, it's six hundred dollars more than it was. I'm like. Like shit, you could have told us like give us some time, something, but it was it was just so my immediate response, just for some reason, this visceral experience of of how I've lived life is oh, I'm gonna give you something, a reason. I'm gonna burn the house down, right? I'm gonna, you know, you don't want us to have it, you ain't gonna have it, right? But that only that ends up with me suffering and my family suffering and me being in jail. So I I don't know exactly what it is that that stirs that up.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

But you've got to the point that you can pull yourself back from that and make a rational decision, uh that's more long-term than providing you the immediate gratification of sticking it to him. Uh, then the idea is okay, well, now let's look at this more longer term. What's this gonna do for me? So it's the ability to think more strategically than impulsively.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Um yeah, and that's essentially where this edge of chaos comes in, because that's chaos, burning the house down.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Yeah, I'd say that.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Yeah, and so stability is when I feel, and and maybe that response is because I feel some sense of instability by by being forced out of this home, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Like, oh, of course you do. It's it's something that just kind of landed in your lap, totally unwelcome and unexpected. And um, it's with you, but yeah, you have to deal with it, and you've chosen to deal with it in a productive manner. Um, I would like to think that being married has something to do with that. Um, you feel and you have children at home, so you feel that protective parental desire uh and to provide for your wife and your family and all these kind of things, very normal masculine things to do. Um also normal masculine things is to raise hell sometimes. And um look at that smile on your face. I I, you know, you are one more hellraiser. I can just tell that right now, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Um break shit, man.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Uh now I'll, you know, I have a well, he's deceased now, but he for many years he was a very, very good friend, and he was a lot like you. And um he and I were very, very different, but we respected one another. Um and uh I'm I'm the original Sunday school boy, like uh art. Okay. I never did, I was such a good boy. Okay. Now, now that I'm my age, I'm thinking, I wonder why didn't I do a little more hell raising when I was young, you know? Because but I was just like, you, you know, I was the doobie, you know. You would have probably said, Oh, who is that creep over there? You know, I mean, so you know, I was the the doobie all the time. But guess what? Secretly, I was envious of you guys because there was something about you, wow, this guy's really enjoying stuff, you know. And now, fortunately, you kept it from going completely out of control, and that's where you end up in prison, addicted, dead, all these other things that are not very positive outcomes. Um, you were able to restrain that back in. So, what was it that enabled you to do that?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Uh well, restrain is maybe not the correct term because I I I was addicted, I was addicted to drugs for 15 years, and I was homeless off and on for most of that time too.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

But at some point you made a change.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, you know, I I and this is my experience, and I I imagine most people who who used drugs don't want to use drugs, especially, you know, I was I was using methamphetamine and putting needles in my arm, type of using drugs, right? Well, that's I imagine people in that situation don't go about their day and say, yeah, this is the this is the life I wanted, right? At some level, I knew like doing drugs is something I don't want to do, it's bad for me. I I some I I have this idea of a different life that I should live. I just don't know how to get there.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

I don't know how to get there. That's the phrase right there. What do I do? How do I make this change? How do I, you know, what's that first step? And the irony of it is that's what you're enabling these prisoners to do, if they'll take you up on it.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Yeah, absolutely. I get to go in and and be a symbol that life life can be different. It can. But also, I do try to share as much as I can. As I said, I have to remain as the teacher in the role. Some of it's like similar to what I shared here, you know. That the old me uh still exists, right? That person's there. The guy who wants to burn the house down is still there, right? So, yeah, you change and you can make different decisions, but you as a person, and it doesn't mean anything about him, it doesn't make me a bad person that I want to burn the house down. I mean, as as you just said, uh, you were envious of the bad boys, and I I firmly believe this is why people love to hear my story, that everybody's wants to know what that feeling's like to take a match and throw it on a pile and walk away and just be like, like, what is that like, right? To get into this fight, like to actually experience people want to experience that. They're afraid of it, obviously, because they don't go out and start fist fights, right? But they like people like me, they like to hear my story because it gives them a glimpse into this other side of life that they secretly want to experience, but obviously don't want to burn their their houses down because nobody really wants to experience that. Not really, it's the results. But setting a match to something and walking away is is it's enticing, it's intriguing. People are that's why people are fat. What's the number one thing people listen to on podcasts, right? It's like true crime and serial killers. People are enamored with the dark side of life because it's it's part of who they are, but they don't want to acknowledge it. So they want to listen to how other people engage in the dark side. And so, you know, I don't pretend it's not there when I talk to my students, like, hey, who you are and what you've done in life is you know, they always ask, is someone gonna actually hire me with my background? Are people gonna want to work with me when they find out that I've been in prison? And I tell them they're gonna want to work with you more, probably. And if they don't, you don't want to work with them, honestly. Because if somebody's gonna judge you based on that, you don't want their business, you don't want to work with them. It's off I've I've led with that in job interviews. Well, tell us about yourself. Well, I was homeless and addicted to drugs for 15 years of my life, but let me tell you what it taught me, right? Because I learned a lot of shit living on the streets that you can't learn in an NBA program. Let me tell you, because that's got back that's quite the opening.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah. Um, and here's what that does. I suspect, no, I know, that will disarm most people because they're not expecting that from you. Um, if they're expecting anything at all, it's sort of a gloss over and a strong defense on why that's irrelevant. Instead of embracing the experience that you've had and using that as a constructive step forward. There is a difference.

unknown 29:48

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

You see. And, you know, if a man would come to me like you do, I mean, I'd be very, I, you know, I, you know, I'd be really, really, what's the word, attracted to learning more about well, why? And tell me what you can do for me. How what do you want to do in life? Um, you know, you know, my what I do is I work with um, I work with philanthropists primarily. And above a certain level, um, they don't need another thing. All right. They can buy the things they want, they want something that's far more elusive, personal self-fulfillment. And philanthropy is a way that they can do that um if they happen to be uh engaged by the right uh organization. So many organizations they treat them like ATMs or bank accounts, and that just frustrates them more. But so I will when I was working on the institutional side, not the not the coaching side, I would ask someone, Art, I'd say, so art, what is it you really want to accomplish in life? And these people are already successful financially, monetarily. By the way, uh was it like 80 or 90 percent of all the millionaires and billionaires in this country are self-made? It does not come from inherited wealth. Uh, does not, um, there are a few, but not that many. Um, so they've it's by their own effort that they've achieved this. Uh, and um and oftentimes that's when you begin to hear the things that are really important to them. Yeah, I made all this money, but here's what really is something that's on my heart I'd like to share with you. And if you can um give them that and whatever form that it might take, um money's no object, Art with these people. Money is no object because it's not about the money. See, it's really not about the money. And with you, it's not about all the all the damn credentials, it's about your life experience, it's about what you've done and what you're gonna do with that. You see, uh, it's we know before we started recording, I um, you know, I mentioned to you the man Charlie Munger, who was, as you know, uh Berkshire Hathaway coach and co-founder and friend of uh Warren Buffett. You know, he had a very difficult life early, and he had an opportunity, he could have either gone down a rabbit hole and died early from all of his bad experiences, or just endure and keep going and see what happens. And he was a bright man, and he had some opportunities and he took the most of those. See, that's what you've done, my friend. You know, you've had some issues. Well, okay. I actually respect you more for having endured this and come out of this on the other side, you know. And this, you know, I don't know you that well, but here's what I here's what I'm thinking. You're the kind of man I can trust. You're a man I can trust because I don't think you're gonna bullshit me. Um, and you don't really need me for your life, okay. And so uh that right there gets my attention. You know, what is it that would motivate you to be, you know, if I were hiring you for a job, what it what it would motivate you? What would and then of course I'd ask you, what is it that brings you satisfaction? What is it that brings you fulfillment? Um, and so so now you got you did the TEDx talk, you're doing the teaching. Um what the hell next, Art?

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah, uh so I've spent the last almost year of my life engaged in a coach training program. And I I've been a coach for about five years, and and as as you mentioned earlier, is you know, when you're young, it's about honing your craft and your skills. So I'm I'm working on you know building my coaching skills and building my own coaching business. That's what's next. That's what the next year holds for me.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

I do a lot of work, you know, working at the community college as an adjunct. I work for a local nonprofit, running their program and and supporting incarcerated individuals. My my vision for the next year, what I'm working on, is is I'm gonna work for myself and building my own coaching business and working with, as you said, people who who kind of need that person who is gonna give them the truth, not bullshit them. You know, there's a lot of coaches out there you can hire and they they'll they'll tell you what you want to hear. Uh I'm the guy who who's gonna tell you, wake up, why the hell not? Right? Anything could be possible for your life. The dream that you actually have that's behind the other things you're talking about is achievable. I mean, and part of that's about my own experience, right? Look at look at me, right? Like I used to be homeless, I used to be a drug addict, and I get to do so many amazing things with my life. That is true of anybody.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

People have the capacity for greatness, but you'd also be very candid and truthful. For instance, you probably say to me, you know, Larry, I know you got the desire, but I just don't see professional wrestling in your future. Yeah, and and okay. Um, are are you familiar with the film Chariots of Fire?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Very familiar with it. I've not seen it.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Well, it do you know the story?

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Uh oh, it it eludes a true story.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

It's a true story, and it's about two young men who compete in the 24 Olympics. Um, and what both are runners, one comes from a privileged background, uh uh he's Jewish, one comes from a Scottish background, very intensely religious, faith-based. Um and uh uh the the faith-based guy, Eric Little, is actually he's a he's a long distance runner, and he's he's probably the at that time the fastest man in the world. And um, and he and the a and uh uh Abrams, the the Jewish man, is more of a sprinter, and there's this sort of dynamic that's put up between them. But Abrams desperately wants to be little. He desperate and little he's he's he's lost a little several times. Well, there's this one scene just close to the Olympics, because they're both going to go to the Olympics that represent Britain. Um, and uh he has a meeting in a pub with this professional coach, a man by the name of Masson Bini, and uh he's saying to him, you know, will you will you help me? And of course, first Masson Bini says, Well, you know, I don't know about you, but in my world, it's it's the groom that asks the bride, all right. Mean to work with him, and he said, But I but okay, he said, you know, I'll look at you, I'll see what you've got. But I must warn you, I cannot put in what God left out. And I think that is a wonderful phrase, you know. Well, God did not bless me with athleticism, all right. Um, I've come to terms with that, but I'm still pretty fit for my age, and that's that I can do. But so yeah, you you you're the kind of guy who would say, you know, right, I just don't see that in your future. But you've got other skills over here, you've got other things we can do, you know. Um, and see you you've got this grin. You've got like, yeah, I know, I've been there, I've done that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, you know exactly what I'm talking about, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

I do, yeah, yeah. Uh I've I've done a bit of career coaching in my in my uh my coaching career. Uh I spent a couple of about a good year working for a corporation doing career coaching. And yeah, sometimes yeah, you get to talking to people, what would you like to do? What do you think? What kind of money do you want to earn? And and they start giving you a list of things, and you're just like, okay, yeah, maybe not this year, right? Uh I I talked to, I remember uh very vividly having a conversation with a young man, and I said, What's the what's the end goal? What's the job title you want? And he said, a CTO, chief technology officer, because he's getting into this was an introductory like tech uh certification program. And I said, Tell me about that. Like he said, I love working with my hands and I love technology. And I said, You know what, do you know what C-suite people do all day? And he said, No, I said they have meetings all day. That's the CTO is not working with his hands, he's not touching technology, probably at all, right? He has assistants who actually probably handle his own personal technology. Uh, and so he he just and and as I laid that out for him, he he kind of changed. Well, I don't want to do that, right? No, I don't know. Maybe not most C-suite level people probably don't want to do that. No, because it's a lot of meetings, right? And it's a lot of stress, and it's it's it's actually not what you think it is. And so, what do you really want? What's what's the desire behind that, right? Like, well, if you told me wrestling, I'd say, Yeah, what tell me about it? Like, what about wrestling gets you excited? And let's find something else that has that same excitement for you.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Because if you like smashing the guy's head into the end of the mat, that's what gets me excited.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Okay, all right. Well, you don't have to be a wrestler to to get into a physical altercation with somebody. I mean, there's a boxing gym probably closer to you. Yeah, there is other ways to fulfill this.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

See, I like that about you, I really do. Um, I spent most of my fundraising institutional career in higher ed and um two little stories. Uh I worked with uh the gentleman as a donor who was at that time the uh uh group vice president of General Motors that ran uh Chevrolet. And I don't know what you know about the the uh the uh auto industry, but it was a it's a pretty no-holes, barred, rough and tumble industry. It's it's cleaned up a little bit, but not that much. And so um he and his wife endowed a scholarship at the university, and he wanted to meet the students that his scholarship had benefited. And um, I remember first taking him the resumes and the photographs of the ones that had been selected, and he sat there and in his office in Detroit, and um just tears came to his eyes, Art. This is a rough and tumble auto guy, you know, and you know, the kind that tells you, don't let the door hit you on the way out, you know, that kind of guy. And he says, Well, I want to take this home. And he mentioned his wife's name and showed this to her. Well, then he came to campus, and these kids, these engineering students, you know, oh wow, you know, the CEO is gonna sit here and have lunch with us, and blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, they got a chance to ask questions. And one of them said to him, Mr. McLernan, how do you get to be CEO? All right. He gave them an incredible answer art. He said, Here's how. He said, You take every job that you're given and you do the very, very best you can. And then when the next one comes along, you do that. And sooner or later it will happen. The very not out here, it's one step at a time, your very best effort. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And I thought to myself, well, I hope these kids know the advice they just got, how valuable it is. You know, I hope they understand what they just told them. Um because that's not the popular perception, as you might imagine, you know. Um, and then and then at one point I was uh, well, I had four vice presidencies, and at one college I was vice president for advancement. And you know, we I met with a student council when I was first appointed, and this really young man puts his hand up and he said, Well, Mr. Johnson, I know you're a vice president, but what is it that you do? What do you actually do? In other words, how do I spend my day? You know, and I told him essentially what you said in a lot of meetings. That's sort of what I do, you know. I I'm not out there on the front lines doing that much. I do some. Uh, but uh, and that was kind of a hmm, hmm, hmm, you know, because somehow they don't see you in that light, you know, that your life is so ultra so terribly boring. You know, this this is what I do. So anyway, uh, this has been delightful. Now, I'm gonna challenge you. I think one of your next steps is to write a book.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Yeah, it's it's on my list of things I'm I'm planning to do.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

All right. I won't I want you okay. I want you to write a book, and when you start talking about that, let's talk again. Okay. And then when you actually write it, let's talk again.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

All right. I want to follow you and what you're doing. Um, God bless you, my friend. Um, you know, now how old are you?

SPEAKER_01 42:50

I'm gonna be 40 in about three weeks.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

You said that like you were about ready to get a sentence. Uh believe me, 40 is when you start living, Art. Let me tell you. 40 is when you start living. Um, and uh so congratulate, congratulations on your upcoming birth with you. And uh and you know, and I know you're moving, so you and do you have a place you're going at?

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Yes, yes. We uh, you know, since this was short notice, thankfully there's a couple from our church that's gonna let us live in their their basement for the foreseeable future. We're planning on buying a house in the next three to six months. So okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

Well, I certainly hope the house, let's hope the housing market and the uh and the rent and the uh uh mortgage market improves. There was a quarter point decline, 25 points came down uh uh yesterday on, and so we'll just see what that does for you over time. And uh so well, but let me give you a little uh that will that will make you feel better. All right, maybe. I bought my first house in 1984. All right. That was during the Carter years when there was so much. Well, actually, it was the result of the Carter years, all the the high interest rates. I had a quote buy down where the the bond would buy the the rate down to 12 percent. Okay, so you know, I don't get real excited with some of my you know very young friends that are whining about seven. Now, I understand that the prices have uh inflated quite a bit, yeah. And I get that. Okay. I mean that house I had and what I paid for it in 1984 has more or less quintupled in price.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

I bet.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Okay. Um, but still that that first mortgage, of course, we refinanced as soon as we could. Uh, but uh so there's hope. That's what I wanted to say. There's hope. I'm hoping. Yes. All right. Thank you, Art, uh, for being here. Uh, I want to thank the our our guests and our audience. Um, if they wanted to reach out to you, where would they go to reach out to you?

SPEAKER_01 45:16

You can find me on LinkedIn, ArtWilson. Uh, you can email me, art at artwilson.com. And hopefully in the next two or three weeks, I'll have my website up, artwilson.com.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Okay. All right. Well, thank you again, Art.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Yeah, thank you for having me. It's been it's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

All right, people. Enjoy. We'll do another one of these next week. And now you know how to reach this young man. He's going place. Thank you for listening today. Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest. Guest comments and opinions are their own. The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.