Collaboration Done Differently

Brian Sarrazin is Co-Founder & CEO of Synanim, a startup that offers an online system for collaboration and connection. A longtime business and technology strategist, Brian has worked with emerging technology companies for over forty years, first as an employee of UNISYS and in various startups and later as a management consultant with clients including PBS/KQED and Apple. Brian invented Synanim based on research into cognitive science and social constructivist learning theory.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to A Principles Voices. Conversations with those who are making a difference. I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles. Now join me as I welcome this week's guest, as they invite us to come along on their journey. Hi everyone, it's Larry Johnson, your host for A Principles Voices, and I'm gonna have a wonderful time today. I have in front of me Brian Cesarin. Cezarin. Did I get that right?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Cerizin.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Cezarin. And he has got a really unusual story and one of a kind nonprofit. And I don't I'm not even going there to describe what this guy does because I would totally botch it. So I'm going to leave it up to Brian to inform us and you know we'll guide it along the way. But uh welcome, Brian.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Larry. Well, it's great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Well, it's my pleasure, actually. So can you just for to get us rolling here, give us maybe a 60 or 90 second kind of reel of um of uh your your your bio here? I mean, who kind of who you are and where you came from.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Okay. So I um well, we'll just start professionally. I uh studied to be a CPA and found that was just not in sync with who I am. Uh so I then joined some a startup in San Francisco, and there I found my calling, which was new technology, new innovation, bringing new ideas into the world. Uh from there I created a technology called synonym. Synonym is uh two root words, synchronous, and enim for mind and spirit. So it is synchronous mind and spirit. It enables thousands of people to come together synchronously, anonymously, to develop consensus and connection.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Well, that is quite uh that like up here. The big idea is what this is. Um, so tell me about you personally. Where were you born? Um, how big of a family are you from?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Uh yes, I was born in Worcester, Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Ah, Worcester. I've been there.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah. And uh so I lived there till the tender age of three when uh our family moved to California. And my first memory was uh, you know, back in the day of cars such as this, it was an old Merck. I would stand on the transmission in the back seat and be able to put my hands on the back of the bench seat looking out. Oh, I remember my siblings, and my siblings, uh two siblings, would push my knees in and I would go like that. That was the fun ride from Wusta to Fair Oaks, a suburb of Sacramento in California, where I lived to the age of 10. And then we moved to Minneapolis, Minnesota. Minneapolis. It's a beautiful place. The people there are wonderful. Uh, we're seeing much of this in the news, how they're pulling together. And uh, but there's this whole weather thing that I found uh, should we say, not appealing. And so I um that's when I left to join the startup in uh San Francisco. Um that was shortly after college. Okay, and um, you know, was there until I moved here uh in uh Santa Fe, New Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

All right. Um I know the first time I visited um uh Minneapolis was none in the winter, but I noticed something a little unusual about the parking meters. They had plugs for block heaters, and I thought, oh my god, boy, I can't imagine the the cold if they've got a plug that plug in your block heater so it doesn't freeze while you're in shopping or whatever, you know. It's just like okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

It is a different world, and you know, imagine the uh 10-year-old uh, you know, in our family moving there. We moved there in February, and the week after we arrived, it was 28 below. So yeah, and they're and all the cars were plugged in, they're block heaters, right? And you know, this 10-year-old is like, what is this now? Right, and uh yeah, 28 below zero. So my joke looking back is that uh, you know, my father was guilty of child endangerment.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Yeah, uh-huh, yeah. You got a long way with that, didn't you, Brian?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, right. Uh but yeah, so that was such a dramatic shift from you know, the the the the height of winter in Sacramento is maybe you wake up, you walk to the end of your block for the school bus, and there's just the thinnest layer of ice on the puddle at the in the uh gutter.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Okay, that's uh that's winter in Sacramento.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

All right, right. Quite a difference.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

So now tell me about this startup you have. I mean, you're living in New Mexico now and you're based there. So and you mentioned the um it's sync synchronous. What is it?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Synonym.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Synonym.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Synonym. All right, so I didn't take my prayer.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

All right. And give us sort of a uh you gave us a big picture. Tell us what it's what it's created to do. What's its purpose?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Well, I um the point of my creating it was to synchronize mind. So it you know, I did a deep dive into learning theory. Learning theory, um, one of the principles within it is uh social constructionism and social constructivism. Social constructivism refers to the learning aspects, and um Vygotsky was famous for his zone of proximal development and so on and so on. And there are many concepts I don't want to bore you with, but the bottom line is that we learn quite readily when we see other minds doing and saying things in sync with where we are or just outside of that range. That's the zone of proximal development where our brains are able to understand a thing, but they need a slight push to get there.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

And when you know, so we let's delve into that. And and please use lay language, Brian. You're talking to a person who's barely educated here. So um uh the proximal to something we know. Can you give me a common example of what that would be? Just an everyday example.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Uh, okay. The um the zone approximal development is a you know it's a learning theory term, but what it refers to is like if you uh let's say you're studying mathematics and uh you know the teacher instructs everyone to count to 10, then the teacher says, okay, now if we put a group of two oranges here and a two group of two oranges there, well, okay, that's let's see, I count them up and that's four. Well, what about two plus two? Wow, two plus two equals four. So the ZPD for short refers to the concepts that might be grasped by a mind when they are presented based on what that mind has already understood.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

So the mind, see what I mean. And the ex the example you gave me was the difference between a physical reality and an abstract idea. Is it always like that?

SPEAKER_01 8:21

No, not always, but uh, you know, very, very often. Uh, you know, the ZPD refers to anything that that's how we learn. The aha moment is how is how I is there's your layman's term for it. Aha, some friend you're gathered round, and some friend says a thing that didn't occur to you, but you understand enough about the the discussion to see the truth of what is stated. Oh yes, I never thought of that before. That's all that it is. It's that's uh you know, science speak for a and that's how we learn. We go forward with a new realization, a new realization built on the prior understandings. That's our life, and that's learning. And then in society, the term is social constructionism. And some experts believe that 90% of the knowledge that we interact with on a daily basis is socially constructed. So think about so gravity. If you let go of something, it falls to the earth, that's science. That is not typically in the realm of social constructionism. Which side of the road do you drive on? Well, we in this country drive on the right side, go to London, and you'll find out things are very different. Why? They've constructed an understanding that the driving should be done on that side of the road. So it's a social construction of how things are.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

That is all. Let me explain, let me expand on that again. One of the things I teach, and um uh you know a little bit of what I do, I do I teach people how to uh uh raise money, how to be how to interact with philanthropists. Okay. And that uh the other thing I say to people is most, well, certainly more than half of nonprofits are operating from what I would call a faulty paradigm of what's really going on in philanthropy. So this would be kind of like that, is that they're they have a certain paradigm, a certain construction, and that it's not terribly productive for them for various reasons, because it doesn't hit the mark. And then if you kind of flip that or mold that into a new paradigm, a new way of looking at the learning, this is where you get the gain. Is am I am I going there?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yes, yes, and the this is all uh, you know, so you know, some people look out into our world today and see some serious uh societal issues. That's all based on groups constructing a perspective of the world. We do it together. We are social animals. Uh connection is extremely important to us. Uh, research finds that our health uh diminishes. In fact, we're much more likely to die if we're feeling isolated and lonely. Connection is and it's right there on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, too, belonging. It's is it's just above, you know, food and shelter. So this is a thing that we need to have connection with others. That need then drives that seeking out. And you know, to go back to science again, that's theory of mind. That is where we but the easy term for that is empathy. I seek to understand what you're thinking and feeling. That's a normal, natural human drive, and that's how we connect. Empathy. So synonym then enables well, let's just cut quickly to the chase. In the fundraising scale uh scenario, your first principle, donors are the drivers. Amen to that. And synonym then can enables an extremely efficient way to reach out to your constituency, your stakeholders, your donors, or you know, people you think should be, could be your donors. It enables them to come together and to construct perspectives from shared values. So it the difference I should say between synonym and other technologies that have helped nonprofits is an extreme efficiency. That it and also it's it's completely unuh duplicated in the actual real world, right? It is so you know, so much of technology is just a digital way of doing something in the let's say analog world. And synonym it says, no, we're gonna do it this way.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Um let me go back. I want to talk about that for a minute. A digital representation of something we do in an analog way. Now, I don't want to get too brainiac for our for our listeners, but okay. And the thing just gets too complex and the whole thing just crashes. All right. And and so one thing that's always sort of bothered me or annoyed me is that uh there are those who will create a system or whatever that they think is a perfect model for this sort of behavior. And I'm going, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not. And yet, and yet not profits will just latch onto this. And then something that's coming on, well, you know, there are a couple different kinds of AI, but the AI that uh is not the large language model, but certainly the one that the model where they're trying to monitor or predict human behavior. Um the even with huge, huge databases, you know, uh, you're unlikely to get one anywhere close to the size uh that would be meaningful for a particular constituency that you're trying to model. And so so for these things to claim that and and I don't I don't think I'm being uh over the top here. Um I didn't I don't like to you know bring brand names and products into this, but I can tell you that I've seen uh emails. I I get all kinds of stuff, Brian. I read it all, you know. I read it all. All right. In fact, I'm having to have another another email address now just to be able to read the stuff I have to read. Um and so because I don't unsubscribe, let's just see what's out there, you know. But there are there are firms that will say, more or less, you use our product, and we will be able with this product to identify who to ask for how much, when, where, and how. And I'm going, that is impossible. Just impossible. Because as you know, there's a certain irrationality to humanity. You can't predict it. You know, instead of the the approach you're talking about, which is to look for a for a for a synonym and allow that to naturally bubble together. That's what you're telling me, correct?

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yes, yes, it is. I completely agree. And so much uh uh you know, technologies, their agendas uh are not necessarily aligned with the organization. So here we have though a system, and I will describe it. It is about the minds in the room, as it were. And this synonym then directs those minds in a way that maybe some are uncomfortable with, um, but that enables certain effects to occur. So, and and I should say firstly that um the most important aspect of synonym is besides the the iterative nature of it, is the design of the project. Because each project can have a different path of steps, it just depends on what you wish to accomplish. So, for instance, one path um very uh uh irrelevant to this conversation is um we did a uh session for uh a nonprofit to enable their stakeholders and constituents to write a mission statement for the organization. They felt there were uh you know disparate views, they wanted to align those views, so we that's like hurting cats, Brian. It is. In fact, my partner Rita says that very thing that hurting cats, so how do you do it? Well, synonym is how you do it, and uh we wrote, or I should say they wrote collectively. I think there was a just about 300 people who created a mission statement, and I just got in touch with uh one of those folks uh who said she thought the experience was amazing and just amazing.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Let's unplack this for a minute. 300 people created a mission statement for a single organization. All right. Now, and I presume this mission statement um was not the length of War and Peace, nor did it have the density of an IRS form. Am I correct?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

You are correct. It was uh, you know, uh it was so we again, it's project design, right? We beforehand, we set up a project design that would lead to you know a standard mission statement for a nonprofit organization. So we hunted around, looked at some mission statements, and you know what is what is included, what is not, what must have been considered, and we then have steps that are presented for the participants to go through to get there. And the largest uh we've done uh this was not a mission statement, it was a declaration of uh made by 13,600 people.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

No, so again something something else I want to bring up to this. If I understand this correctly, you're not bringing any preconceptions to the table so that the tool is totally um content agnostic.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Am I yes, yes, the content comes from the minds, as I say, in the room, period, full stop. It is the the magic of synonym is the minds and understanding how to should I say poke and prod, uh inspire those minds toward a particular result. That's it. That's the essence of synonym.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

So and now you and your co-founder, uh, you developed this.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

I developed this, and then um this was so I developed it many years ago, and um I met a you know, I was at a uh there was a large organization I wanted to plug into because you know, synonym is not for one person or two people, it's for many, and so I needed many people to plug in to see if what I'd created had any value, right? So there was a split-off group and uh uh uh you know many glazed eyes as I was talking, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Oh, Brian, never, never, never, right? Okay, now tell me, was this at about two o'clock in the afternoon?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

Uh actually, yes, but there was it was about two o'clock, and but there was one person burning a hole in me with her gaze, and that was Rita Nakashima Brock, and she said, Can we talk afterwards? And we did, and we formed a nonprofit group to deliver synonym to the world, and that's where we did that uh large uh you know declaration with 13,000 people. We've done, we did a number of others as well. Um, you know, here we are now today, because so at the time, um, you know, in the startup world, you need to get that train rolling or you run out of money. Well, that happened. So it was set aside, and then years later, this nonprofit reached out and said, Hey, can we use it to write a mission? statement. And you know, one thing that, you know, so an adage from the startup world is make sure your service product is a need to have, not a nice to have, a painkiller, not a vitamin. Well, synonym is perceived okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

I love this bar. I'm I'm enjoying myself immensely, by the way. So in the startup world, you want to make sure that your product or service is a must have or a need to have, not a what was the other name? Not a nice to have was what she said.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

A need to have a painkiller versus a vitamin, yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

A painkiller. I'm writing that down, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

And I have written well these are you know don't quote me since I'm you know stealing it from whoever came up with that those terms.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Oh back in the O'Brien I'm I you know very little in our world is original. All right. In fact on the shoulders of giants. When I was at uh when I was at Yale I had a um professor that said to me you know Larry there is nothing fundamentally new in the world since the ancient Greeks and Jesus of Nazareth that's it and it's like okay you know so you know and that's really pretty true. You know all the all the basic tenets of thought and civilization were all put in place by then no matter where you were what we were doing. So and in fact uh every once in a while I'll watch one of these programs about ancient uh science the technology was pretty advanced it it it just didn't have an electronic look to it other things but the the concepts were there um and um you know the the self-supporting bridge was uh developed by uh da Vinci in what is it the 15th century 16th century and um it's a very simple thing how you put things across and we go hmm so so I don't so if someone tells me this is brand new and original I kind of go okay okay yes right keep talking keep talking yeah sure it is yeah exactly um oh so this is um yeah okay so so yeah so that the fact that so so yeah no I should say that you know we um we are the original group myself Rita and um uh Lee Lambert Lee's um from the you know financial side he uh he was the founder of Samsung's corporate venture group founding manager he also founded uh Deloitte's mergers and acquisitions practice in Los Angeles heavy guy uh so he Rita and I uh you know we brought the band back together and here we are now um you know because we believe that the nice to have is shifting to a need to have why is that because the connection so we've seen um the effects of technology are pulling us apart uh we used to have you know uh I I don't know if you are familiar with Putnam's work bowling alone um it's uh a great work it's uh you know it it charts our course as a society from you know say the Kiwanis Club bowling leads uh you know even churches too have suffered where people just don't gather together in community anymore and that is in part the reason for our you know malaise and uh you know anxiety is you know some say is uh now an epidemic and it's because of technology. So you know I suspect Brian that we're you know reasonably close in age. I'm not gonna ask you how old you are you if you want to tell me you can but um when I grew up in in Nashville in the 1950s and early 60s um it was a very community oriented town. You know I you know belong you know our church uh my my boy scout troop uh these various civic organizations yeah um it was it was fun and there was a sense of of well it it was the day when you know my mother would say we'll be home by dinner and I I was free pretty much to roam the neighborhood uh yes and I remember of course of course I would test that a little bit there was a very large public park about six blocks from my house and so me and the other boys the neighbor we we'd go down there and they had creeks and everything else to play in my well you know my mother wasn't the least concerned as long as she didn't know what I was doing right and so and as long as I made it back at night by five o'clock all was well in the world you know and then the other thing is there was a lot of self-policing that happened if one of our neighbors saw me up to no good well it got back to my parents you know absolutely yeah and and I had hell to pay when I got home you know and and and I mean that was a community holding together yes yeah yes yes yes and uh it's you know we you know it's uh mixed blessings uh because there's you know so lifespans have been uh increased and so many good things have happened from technology and um innovation throughout our human history uh but uh it pulls us apart and I think it was Nesbitt in uh Megatrends talking about the high touch high tech high touch dynamic where the technologies and I think uh in pursuit of loneliness was another good uh work sociological work um about how technology pulls us apart how does it do that well in the very early days back when we were say hunting with in groups by scaring say uh buffalo over the edge of a cliff right well you need to have a larger to do that that's really early you're no guns here we're talking about really early right I'm trying to go even before you know many will say oh with spears well no I'm going before that where truly prehistory Brian prehistory where we need exactly we need to be with a group of say 30 people to scare a creature uh you know off a cliff that's how we get our meal for that day and if it was just one of us not gonna work yeah and in you know and and you know much and anthropologists will say that if you were alone in those early days you were not gonna live so we really needed to pull together. Your image of the buffalo um makes me think of you know I live out in Boise and and Yellowstone is just six hours from us and uh it's a beautiful park and you know and a lot of Americans are just not either knowledgeable or aware of of the wild world. You know we're out here and it's an outdoor place and this is what people do out here. And if you don't like it go back to the city. But um I remember uh on one on one of our trips to Yellowstone um the um some of the tourists well they acted as though these animals were in a zoo and they're not right and they're not domesticated animals and then in the case of the buffalo you know you might see them you kind of uh kind of plodding along out in a field but they're actually very quick and agile animals yes and they can move at 30 miles an hour um they're what a ton and a half at least is what they weigh and those little feet can really move and um and you know inevitably you know there's some tourist that gets gored or something else because they got too close or and they just thought he was just a a big cow in the middle of the field. Right. You know um and but yeah it's that uh you if you're gonna if if he's gonna be your dinner you got to have some force behind you.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

That's right. And so then technology started we started you know the spear for example bow and arrow and forward to today where technology has helped us uh you know again back to Maslow's hierarchy well that very low thing we need food water shelter food what well the technologies have been helping us gather those things right and then as a society make money so that we can buy some of those things well they have this the sense the tendency to so that uh I think it was in Nesmet the eight no it was in the pursuit of loneliness the ATM is is one of the examples he uses to uh highlight how they pull us apart so we used to go down to the bank we used to know the bank tellers by name and it was a kind of a community feel right well now you just go up to the ATM you stick a piece of plastic in there you type in some numbers and boom you get what you're after that's a real good example of how technology though it's helpful it pulls us apart because we don't need each other as much as we did back then and the more technology and so now we see uh you know criticisms of social media because they're pulling us apart and they're make they're they're attempting to make us uh reliant on them so that you know all our attention they call it some call it the attention economy is pointed toward their devices so that they can monetize us.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

See you have just hit upon the I believe the number one criticism of that stuff called social media is that the algorithms are actually designed from a psychological perspective to draw us in and to addict us if we're not careful. Yes and and I'm really pleased that all my I have three daughters and uh even the youngest one really no she was like what 12 or 13 before the small the smartphones ever really came out. It's only been what 20 years or so a little over 20 years. And I remember I can still see the the the the the the film the the the film when Steve Jobs is on the the stage talking about the iPhone and the and the damn thing didn't even work yet and he's up there promoting it. You do a little little little hand in mirrors here to make it work you know but um uh and that's not been that long that's been a very short period of time yes yes um and I think about you know I'm I mean I'm older but I'm not you know I'm not Methuselah and I know when I was in in in graduate school my roommate in graduate school um uh would go when he was younger uh he lived in Pittsburgh he'd go to he'd go to downtown Pittsburgh to the rooks brothers and to get some clothes and he'd use his parents' account and inevitably the salesman would say did your mother know you're down here I mean people knew each other sure yes community right and just because he had a card or something didn't make a damn the difference to them like do you are we doing this right here so and that's sort of that human connection is what you're telling me that's being lost by these conveniences and this efficiency.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Yes yes so it you know it it's it's a bit of a you know intellectual stretch to see how synonym connects people um because it's anonymous but what is it that connects us when someone walks in and they have well I don't know I don't want to be political here so let's say you know you're a a Denver Broncos fan and someone comes in with a Philadelphia Eagles hat on oh boy you know I don't want to hear a word that person says right well someone with a Denver Broncos hat comes in and says hey let's talk let's talk what is what is driving that is a sense that this person shares my values and perspectives and that's what synonym projects do. The very first thing or at least we hope they do I mean the presumption is because they're wearing the logo uh but uh yeah uh is something well it's a presumption exactly and that's that's what I'm speaking to our brains are wired for developing theory of mind that is under trying to understand that mind over there that is a deeply deeply uh important function of us as humans is uh that's that thinking out of what is that person thinking intention right so we see that how so we think oh whoa well the first thing synonym does in any project design what we do is let us immerse in shared values and you know many uh theorists believe that we have universal values as humans and I am one of those people that believe that people go through shared values they they present their values they look at what the group says they see that they are now sharing values with this group and then they proceed to build ideas upon those values and they see the progression of ideas based on the very core of ideas which is there's the values we're all everything we do is to improve our lives presumably and or those we care about so that those actions we take are built upon values and some of us have developed different strategies and perspectives that's just what life does synonym says let's start at ground zero and build up from there so that it's completely fresh.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

So you have some perspective that's over here some perspective over there but if we start with those shared values those perspectives will align so it's truly building a consensus so we hear that term a lot let's build consensus well I really don't know of uh any system that actually builds consensus mostly it's just look you drop that idea and I'll drop this idea and then we can agree right that's not building it's called um zero sum compromise is what it is yes yes but synonym actually builds it from scratch from the core values and so if you say a thing in the a later steps you need to anchor it in the values that came before otherwise people don't listen so it's uh it's about building building building and that's how you build a mission statement you ask your constituents what are those values so what are the core human values the point of that is to um connect the participants around the values that they most cherish the next step let's say in a mission statement is what values are most important to this organization and so you start to see you start to funnel it toward the conversation the goals of the particular conversation if it's a mission statement for a nonprofit organization then we need to understand what goals we should be addressing in this nonprofit then you go to strengths weaknesses uh what are the threats out there um etc etc and then you work through all of that and create a statement so people then come together they come together and you as a nonprofit and as you as a nonprofit um that data is available to you you know let me say this Brian send me the data absolutely let's say you know um it typically um from the time say uh let's just use this example that someone the ed comes to you and says Brian we want to create a mission statement for organization and you say okay so between that conversation and a finished product assuming that things go along reasonably well um how much time is elapsed well the the each session we you know we target an hour per session you know we think folks uh you know their capabilities to you know continue on start to wane after that so each session is an hour um the in the case of you know 300 or 13,000 people uh because you can't have that many people in a group so synonym uh slots people into randomly assigns and again it's anonymous to groups of six then your actions in that group determine a point value and the point value reflects your abilities to understand your group and to speak to that understanding in a way that gets folks to say yeah that I like that entry so I'm looking at six entries after each step and I'm tasked with selecting one of those and carrying it forward.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

So based on that activity you identify a representative leader and that representative leader is chosen again based on their ability to understand the group and to speak to that understanding that person goes forward to another session until there are just six people who then create the final document and in the case of a document right but in learning scenario we would just remix them so six so this go to another group of six.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Is this like a month six weeks two years tomorrow? Well so it could be tomorrow it uh so uh it you know it depends on how many people are there right but if there are 13000 people well that's we had six it's a lot of people we had six sessions we were a little shocked by that but uh Jerry of Ben and Jerry's ice cream he had a a forum that he announced it on and so we jumped from I don't know like a thousand or so to 13,000 in a day that was a little frightening but it worked out tremendously well their declaration was presented in uh Manhattan got a standing ovation so what was the time elapse for that six sessions so six sessions and you know we also had the fear that you know people would drop out when people were identified as the leader they really felt a responsibility apparently and each of these sessions are an hour correct okay so six hours of elapsed time and then I guess there was some time involved to uh uh to produce the results and the administrative stuff that goes with this and so uh a couple no those six hours that was it no that was it that's the document that comes up the document that came out at the end is the polished finished document is the polished finished document yes that's how we design the project okay well see that's what I was trying to see I I look at this you know I come from the project manager world and I'm trying to figure out okay where is the dead time where are the other things you know where does it all fit together and you're just saying telling me that it's a series of meetings that are sequential and depending on the number of people it could be two or three sessions it could be six sessions it could be more it's just a matter of the numbers okay that's what I was that's what I was after.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Okay right so just the very just the numbers of the people as we make a you know a pyramid toward the one person.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

In the case of a do let me ask you this so you've got this product it has you already you've already tried it out and it works all right and you're getting takers on this now are you still a nonprofit yourself we back in when we started we were a nonprofit this time around we are an LLC. Okay a for-profit let's not think about being a for-profit I'm a for-profit okay the question is what do you do with your profits in fact I like to tell my nonprofit clients some of them are a little bristly about being called a business I'm like oh no no wait a minute you are a business you have to have a business model to generate revenue the only difference in fact your nonprofit is not a is not a business type it is a tax designation that's all it is you've got to have a model that works and um and the difference between the the nonprofit and the for profit is how economic That's revenue is distributed. That's the only difference, you see. And they kind of have to wrap their heads around that. Well, it's true. Sure. All right. Um, right. And and with and for a nonprofit, it you know, at least some, sometimes a lot, of the revenue comes from philanthropy. Okay. But but there's can also be fee for service and these other things. And if you're in LLC, there's a fee for your service, obviously. And so um what's what's the sweet spot of your market? What size nonprofit are you really looking for?

SPEAKER_01 44:33

So we and also, too, I want to speak to the revenue uh model you mentioned. We do not have a specific this is what we charge. It depends on the scenario. Uh, we have right now a number of projects in the works that are free for donations. We uh ask for donations for the organization uh with which we're working. Um we feel that uh, you know, so one thing that was noticed uh is that though you know we are a uh thought of as a nice staff, when people use us, they want to use us again. And the um I mentioned the mission statement that came from someone who did was part of that 13,000 group. Oh they suggested to their board that the board use this technology to create a mission setup to rally together to round up their diverse, their very globally diverse organization. Round it up. This is how we'll do it. Let's use this technology. Well, then out of that, a political consultant who was part of that came to me and said, we want to use synonym to write legislation here in Brazil. Because in Brazil, yeah, in Brazil, they allow their constituents to present legislation. And the, you know, of course, how how would they do that? Well, synonym is one of those ways. Well, we were proceeding with that, it was going forward, but then Bolsonaro was elected, and uh that kind of put the kibosh on it. So the point, though, is that when people experience it, they want to use it again. And okay, so the point is then from the that that spun out of a revenue conversation because we believe that if we could just get enough groups using it, you know, no worries, right? And if somebody just comes forward with a plan that we think should be monetized, um, we will do that, right? But for now, uh, well, for a mission statement for a nonprofit, um maybe we'll ask for a tiny amount. It depends as which size organization could be any size. Um, we are able to accept in six steps. We've learned from the 13,000 that six steps works. Uh okay. What is the maximum amount in in multiples of six? 46,000 people. Well, this is 46,000 people.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Okay. This this sounds like um you you sort of pick and choose your clients.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Well, if the phone rings, we'll answer it. And if they want to use synonym, we will use it. So we do pick and choose, we do pick and choose who we reach out to, yes. Um, but if you know, we will not pick and choose going forward. In fact, this woman I spoke with uh from the organization who did the munition statement, um, she says, Well, wait, no, you need to have both sides of the conversation involved. So if it's a political conversation, we need to have the right and the left come together. And I completely agree with that because we can see how those shared values produce a positive outcome for everyone.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Well, they're sort of the fundamental component to make the whole thing work. Um, and you know, otherwise you get sort of a one-sided kind of myopic view of things.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Um, you know, but in most nonprofits, you have folks who recognize the values that your um that your organization represents and the activities that you seek to promote. So that attracts a certain type of person. However, synonym enables synonym enables EDs to reconsider their constituents. So so many times um an insightful founder of a nonprofit comes together, comes forward, and they have a very clear understanding of an attitude and a need. But those things shift, as you've said, and you know, they shift, they shift, they shift. And now today, does anybody fully understand what's going on in the minds of America? You know, maybe not. But well, it's like this is a way to find out.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

One more thing I want to mention. I want to now the mission statement. One of the things that I find um uh frustrating with a lot of nonprofits is they will come up with the mission statement, but it's not a mission statement that communicates to the uh intended uh what I call investment constituency, or otherwise known as donors, okay? Because donors are making the investments here. Uh and they they do expect a return. It's not a material one. And this is something that a lot of non-profits have a hard time wrapping their head around. That uh, yeah, they expect something to come back, but it's not money, it's not material. It's really a connection with them, who they are as people, is what it is. So will this produce a statement that it that is that is appealing or reflective of that?

SPEAKER_01 50:16

Absolutely. Again, it's dependent upon the goal, and it need not even produce a document, it can just be a process of bringing constituents together to share their values. So, like I say, in a learning design, we remix sticks, sticks you know, the identification of the leader, uh, we still want that sort of thing, but it's of the presentation of the document of the of the writings, not of the person. So if you go to another session, everybody continues, but mixed in different groups. So the idea though is do you see what I mean? So that's an option. So uh really this is a way for uh nonprofits, you know. I've I've said so much about a mission statement, but it's really about a way to connect with your constituents. Ask them what we should do, you know, ask your constituents, what should we do? It could be on any topic. What are your perspectives on uh you know American leadership right now? What are your perspectives on profit of profit tiers or what have you, right?

SPEAKER_00 51:32

And and so this is this is where it becomes important that you have representations of your investors because they're the ones that are going to have these ideas that come up. I mean, they're the ones gonna fund this thing. And say I'm a fundraiser. Can you tell that, Brian? Um anyway, uh well, we could go on forever talking about this, but before we uh bring it to a close, how would someone reach out to you? How would they contact you?

SPEAKER_01 52:01

The site, well, my email would be the best way. Uh on the site is there's an info at synonym.com. There's, but my name is Brian with an I, B-R-I-A-N, at synonym.com. Or give me a ring, 510-282-4155.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Now there's a brave man putting his phone number out there, but okay, that says that you're really straightforward and forthcoming. Uh, of course, when this is uh when this is published in your bio, it'll have a link to your uh to your company. And so you've just given us everything else. But um, so I might want to do this some more of this. Can we have can we do another one of these sometime?

SPEAKER_01 52:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Okay, okay, great. Um, so I've had a delightful conversation with Brian, and he has taught me a lot, and I'm always willing to learn. Um, you know, it as Aristotle said, Brian, uh, the beginning of wisdom is the admission of ignorance. Um, and I wish more people understood that. Um it's it's whenever someone says to me, I the any equivalent of I know it all, I just go to go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Keep going, keep going.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

It's like when you're a parent of a young child or a teenager. Oh, dad, all the kids have this and everyone says this. You know, well, superlatives, no, I don't go for that. That's like an alarm bell. Uh uh, something's not right here. You know, so but um, but this has been delightful, Brian, and I want to thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_01 53:37

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

And your wisdom. Um, you know, everyone, we've been talking to Brian here for an hour, and I think I'm gonna invite him back again. But in the meantime, I hope he'll reach out to his firm and uh see if you can't interest him in doing a project for you. I'm sure he'd be agreeable to an extent anyway. So uh so thank you very much. And everyone, thank you for your time and that you took to listen to us today, and you know how to reach me. It's Larry at theAprinciples.com. And um, let us hear from you. Thanks, Brian.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Thank you, Larry.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Thank you for listening today. Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest. Guest comments and opinions are their own. The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.