Eight Principles Voices
Conversations with those who make a difference.
Host Larry C Johnson invites humanitarian leaders and changemakers to share where they’ve been, where they’re going and what drives them forward.
When you meet them, you recognize their spark and vision immediately. There’s no mistaking the positive, lasting difference they’re making in the world—their world. These leaders—trailblazers all—know where they’re going. And they invite us along on the journey.
Each week, Larry Johnson, Founder of The Eight Principles, interviews leaders and change makers from across the globe. Podcasts are available here, distributed to our Eight Principles family, and on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music and YouTube. If there's a particular person you'd like us to interview, let us know. Email info@TheEightPrinciples.com.
Eight Principles Voices
Assembling Talent for Impact
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James Misner is the founder and CEO of The Kipos Group. Over his career, he has facilitated the raising of 100’s of millions of dollars to support nonprofit organizations. A trusted expert in the realm of fundraising strategy, staff, culture, and implementation, he and The Kipos Group bring a sharp focus on small and mid-sized organizations engaged in direct service.
Welcome to Eight Principles Voices. Conversations with those who are making a difference. I'm your host, Larry Johnson, founder of the Eight Principles. Now join me as I welcome this week's guest, as they invite us to come along on their journey. Hello, everybody. It's Larry Johnson, your host for A Principles Voices. And I'm really thrilled to have with me today James Meisser. I think that's how he pronounces his name. James, is that right? That's right. Okay. And and James is a kind of a cool dude because he's got his priorities in the right order. Number one, he says he's a he says he's a father. Uh, how many kids do you have, James?
SPEAKER_01We have three, 10, 8, and 5.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's wonderful. And then he also is the founder. Oh no. Secondly, he runs a cut flower farm, which is which he's growing. And then thirdly, he's talking about what we're going to talk about today, and that is his company, Keepos. Now, I know when we talked before, uh, James, you told me what kepos meant. And I know it's a Greek word, a Greek term. Enlighten me again. Enlighten our audience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So kepos is the Greek word for garden. Okay. And so kind of fits with the farming, you know, thing. Of course it does. Just a little bit. Um, I've been a professional fundraiser uh for 25 years now. And deeply truly believe that the best way to do it is to help organizations and their audience, their donor base, grow things that are beautiful out of their relationship together. Okay. So it's not just about extracting resource, it's about co-creating something uh that brings beauty and food and rest and peace uh into the world.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, that uh that floats my boat. All right. And how long have you been doing this?
SPEAKER_01So we've been doing this for uh four and a half, five years now.
SPEAKER_02Okay. All right. So I always like to know the origin story of how someone became a fundraiser. And I don't think you're going to tell me what people tell me more these days, and that is I decided in high school and I went to college for it. Oh, please don't tell me that.
SPEAKER_01No, that's not the answer at all, uh, Larry. How did I become a fundraiser? I went to school to be on the program side of things. My undergraduate degree is in the politics of African development, okay, of all the crazy things uh that you can have a degree in. Um, I met and married my wife. Her family is from East Africa and started working on international development projects. Okay. Very quickly, as like a 22, 23-year-old, realized the folks that I'm working with on these projects are way smarter than I ever have the ability or capability to become. And I ended up becoming the resource guy. Okay. Um, you got that, you got that, you got that. Okay, I guess my job is to go get money uh for this. So it happened by accident because of a deep love uh for the projects and the people and the places where we were working. Um, and then realized, okay, this is actually just as important as the program work. Because without the money, nothing happens on the program side. So if I truly love these people that we're serving, the best thing I can do for them is to learn how to do this fundraising shtick.
SPEAKER_02And um, you said you've been doing how long in fun in fundraising have you been all together?
SPEAKER_0125 years now.
SPEAKER_0225, yeah, you told me 25 years. So at what point in your career did you realize that it's really about the donors?
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna say year two or three and do it, okay? So, you know, years one and two, especially when you're young, like I was, okay? You're thinking hot shot, let's learn all the marketing stuff, let's put the let's put the pitches out there, let's get the messaging right. And by the way, those things are actually really important, okay? But the number one thing is that this is the donor's money and what their passions and priorities are matter more. Okay. I think the first way that I learned to articulate this, probably as a 25, 26 year old, um, imperfectly, obviously, was um if the donor cares about something else so deeply that they're gonna talk to me about it over coffee and we don't do it, and I know somebody who does it, I'm gonna put them in touch together. That was my first articulation of it. Okay. If we're not the right fit for them, I will put them in touch with somebody I think is. Um, because that's how quickly and how deeply I learned that it's all about them. You can't twist somebody's arm into giving. Okay. Maybe you can a little bit, but they're not gonna give a second time. They're not gonna give a third time, they're not gonna give you a, you know, biggest and best gift. It's about them and what they want. And yes, there's education in there, yes, there's brokering in there, yes, there's all these different things, but at the end of the day, you're helping them write the story of the type of person, business, foundation, family, what have you, that they're trying to become.
SPEAKER_02Um I was gonna say that um if you most people will probably give you something, but it's something I call the hush and go away gift. Here it is, it's done. Please don't come back.
SPEAKER_00Please don't come back.
SPEAKER_02And um, but here's here's the irony. When people don't understand what you just said to me, and let's say it's a you know, it well, it happens all the time. They're speaking with someone and they're not aware of what's going on, and they do get a gift, and maybe it's ten thousand dollars, maybe it's fifty thousand dollars, and what they and they're so happy with that, what they don't understand, it should have been a half a million dollars. That's right. And so they were getting the equivalent of a hush and go-away gift, they're giving once, just don't come back. And um what do you think are the are the qualities uh that are required in a person who does fundraising professionally?
SPEAKER_01Um, I get asked this question a lot, and my answer my first answer is always the same. It's curiosity. The person has to have a genuine sense of curiosity, of being curious about a person or a business or a foundation or a house of worship. Uh, they have to get to know them. And you don't get to know somebody unless you're curious about them. Okay. So I think curiosity is number one. Um, I think drive is number two, actually. Um, I don't think that you can teach somebody to wake up and think, how am I gonna go find five new people to have meetings with today? No amount of metrics, lead and lag indicators, KPIs, okay bars, none of it is gonna teach somebody how this to have Hutzpah, you know, every morning when they wake up. Um and I think that is so important because we're not talking about small problems, right? We're not talking about nice to do type things. We're talking about people who don't have homes, people who don't have foods, people who are refugees, displaced people in poverty, suffering under injustice. This isn't a nice thing to do, okay? If you want a nice career, go go in tech sales. I don't know, do something else.
SPEAKER_02So then you're uh most of your career, and now that you have this firm, your clients are in the social service sector.
SPEAKER_01Is that what exclusively, but very 90% have an end user that benefits from the programming. Um, that's not a higher ed student, that's not an arts, you know, uh patron, it's a a person at the end of it who is in need of some type of service.
SPEAKER_02Okay. All right. I I'd add one other one other quality, and that would be emotional intelligence. That's right. It's a good ad. And being able to um perceive what's going on, being able to understand what the person is saying, what they're doing, you know, right down to the way they're sitting. One thing I tell people uh when I was when I was in this business directly in institutional life, uh, I would do it myself, and I would say to other giving officers, you want to have face-to-face meetings at your the the intent of the the potential donor in their in their uh environment on their turf. And they would say, why is that? Well, first of all, you don't want it in a restaurant, that's the worst possible place. You don't get anything done there. But when you meet on someone's own home space, if you're observant and you look around you, it will tell you a lot about the person. You know, what's in the room? Are there photographs of family? Are there books? Are there other things? You know, how is it arranged? You know, uh, have this has there been thought going into this office, usually if you're meeting if you're meeting business people. Oh, haven't thought of that. Well, yeah, and also it's a wonderful opportunity for a conversation starter, you know, like, oh, I see your pictures back there. Is that your family? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, yeah, it is. You just get to know the perfect way.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely of doing that.
SPEAKER_02And so I always try to do it on the home turf. But yes, you have to have curiosity, James. Uh, you know, what really makes someone tick? Um, why are they, you know, why are they uh the way they are. Um, now I've had the I've met a lot of um uh uh leaders in business, uh, some scientists, a lot of be a lot of beaters in business that were scientists that are both scientists. And what I've discovered about those those people, uh they tend to be uh very much on time. They don't keep you waiting. You you you better not keep them waiting either. That that goes both ways. And then there they are themselves are very curious, and they are inveterate readers, James. They read constantly. I think I read a couple of years ago that Musk reads a couple of books a month. Um, now he's not exactly a person with nothing to do, all right, and yet he finds time for that. And the other thing I noticed, and this was back in the days when it wasn't online, James. Um every morning I stayed in hotels that usually delivered the Wall Street Journal to me. And I always made a point of scanning the journal before I went to my first meeting. More often than not, the person I was meeting had already read the article that I was bringing up. Now think about that. These are people who are incredibly busy, they don't waste a minute, and yet they have time to read this newspaper every morning because they know there's source material in there that they want to gain. So I just yeah, I that and I've enjoyed that immensely. Um, and the other thing is I met a number of I was young once, not now, but I was young once, and I met several people that were old enough to be my father, and um I learned a lot from those guys, and they were if you were curious, they were more than willing to share it with you too. Yeah, um, and I'm like, I'm sitting here, and this is true. I'm sitting here in the CEO's office at General Motors, and I have him for 90 minutes to myself. Oh my goodness, you know, well, I can learn from this guy, yeah. And and get to know him and what's important to him. And um, so anyway, but this this interview is about you, not me. But I just get I just love doing this work and uh still, but I like to share what my so your clients are mainly uh the social service sector related to that. Okay, it was is that on purpose or by accident, or I think it's on purpose, you know.
SPEAKER_01And I think of I think all nonprofits serve a really valuable social, you know, solution to something. Okay. I love the arts, I love theater, I love if I could be a full-time student, I would probably be a full-time student. I love it. But at the end of the day, when there's people involved in it, moms who can't find meaningful employment, people who have been forced to flee their home, uh, poverty, hunger, those types of things, these are problems that governments have never been able to solve in the history of humanity, and that big business has never been able to monetize. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I wonder why. We could have a whole interview on that.
SPEAKER_01Keep going. Um so these are intractable generational problems, okay? And we are living through a period of human history, and this isn't political speak, this is just practical data speak over the past 20 years. There's been more upheaval than there has been in generations, okay. Part of that is just there's more of us, you know, than there was during the great world wars by a by an X factor, okay, by a multiple, uh, which is why you always hear this is the worst XYZ. Well, it's always going to be the worst. There's more of us right now. Second, there are more wars today. We're talking about this during the Iran, you know, war. Um uh, but there's more wars today that most of us don't follow: Congo, Sudan, Southeast Asia, uh, than ever before. You have more natural disasters happening, hurricanes, floods. You have greater gaps between the ultra-wealthy and the ultra poor than ever before. And so these are solutions, these are problems that don't have easy solutions. Okay. And if I'm gonna spend my life working with organizations and working with people to solve these, I want the problems to really matter. So that the solution to the problem also really matters. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Um I'm gonna say something about that. Oh, yes. Let me shift just slightly. Um, now you have this is uh your own consulting firm. Now, are are you built on the same model as the legacy firms?
SPEAKER_01Tell me what the legacy firms are built on, or what your view of that is built on.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it's called uh the dollars per second model. And what I mean by that is um the uh the the cost is generated on the length and how much space-time they have with you.
SPEAKER_01No, so we're we're really unique, we're small, we think of ourselves as a boutique firm. Uh there's nine of us, and we prefer end-to-end solutions. Okay. If somebody needs, because of an innovation, because of a problem, 10 extra hours with us a week. We have clients in Lebanon right now, uh, again, war. Um, I'm not charging them extra because they need more FaceTime to figure out what to do in fundraising. And so then we have this agreement.
SPEAKER_02Let's so they're so they're priced by project, and the amount of time is on your end is somewhat flexible because the goal is to get the project done.
SPEAKER_03Correct. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Now you said there are nine of you. Now, um, that's a pretty good sized firm, James. Um, do these people are these your friends and family or people that came to you, or you had to go search for them, or how did it work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I as a rule, I don't do family hires ever. Um uh just never my wife and I said when we were young and got married, we're never gonna work together. Uh it's been almost 20 years and we've been we've been good to that. Um these are people that I have worked with in the industry firsthand. They've been on my teams before, or we've been colleagues, and I've seen that they provide an exceptional service. Okay. And what I have a deep belief in is that I don't want to rob the talent pool of nonprofits by taking their staff and having them become full-time consultants. Okay. I want them to stay embedded in these really amazing nonprofits that are providing transformational services uh to the world, but I know they can't do it at the at the price point those nonprofits are able or willing to pay right now. So I've chosen the best people that I have worked with, the best strategists, the best writers, the best, you know, data folks, and said, Hey, I know you want to stay at XYZ organization. I know you have an extra kid now, and it's probably really hard to do it. How about you do 20 hours with us, stay there, and you get to spread your wings and spread this amazing stuff that you know to other organizations doing great things, but we're not pulling you out of an organization that deeply needs your skills right now.
SPEAKER_02Right. So then these are people who are working who are fully employed elsewhere, but are part-time or additional time with you. Correct. That's it, that's a different model. Uh, you get much pushback from uh organizational leadership?
SPEAKER_01Uh they all have permission from their organizations. That's one of the requirements uh to work with us. Our clients all know that this is the case. Um, and it allows us to offer pricing that is more competitive uh because we're not carrying the overhead of full-time employees.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So um, and tell me about the uh the service portfolio. What are what are the sort of things that I could come to you for?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so uh number one is strategy. Okay. People don't often know why they're getting the results that they're getting. And we like to go in and we call it our strategic fundraising accelerator, pull back the curtain, do a deep dive, and say, here's exactly why you're getting the results that you're getting, and here's what you can do to get better results.
SPEAKER_02So this would be this would be like the classic audit. The legacy firms come in and they do this assessment. And so this would be something like that.
SPEAKER_01It's classic like that, but we try to do it quick and down and dirty. So we're not charging people for six months of work when in reality it takes about eight weeks uh to do it. Okay. Um, so we do that, and then from there, we offer a number of different uh services. Our most popular is a year-long uh do with you model where our team comes alongside an executive director, CEO, and their fundraising marketing team, and we actually help them to implement the things that we talked about. Everything from major gifts to foundation to annual fund and everything in between. We're actually like right there with them every week helping them do it.
SPEAKER_02Depending on where they are now. Um, so I presume, I'm presuming here, you do this assessment, then is is there some sort of uh um um strategic or operating plan that comes out of that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it's a very high-level one. We are big believers that 200 page 200 page binders or PDFs end up in a file or on the shelf, okay?
SPEAKER_02But but that's what informs your work. Where do we go next? Where do we go next? Correct. Where are the holes? What do we have to attend to? Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01We tend to keep that at medium level, okay? Uh, because things change as you go.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah. Really? They actually change, James. Let me tell you, I want to know when I've gone in there, bam, you know, what do you say to someone? I I'm I'm not, I don't want I want to get away from this group, but I want to ask them. So, what's your response when the person, when the E D or someone says, Oh, we've always done it this way. Or the other one, well, we've never done it that way before. How do you handle that?
SPEAKER_01I ask, do you want the same results that you've always had before, or do you want different results?
SPEAKER_02But you know, and I know that a lot of that reluctance is pure emotion. It's this pure emotion. It's this lack of they're scared shitless to do something different. They don't understand it. And so, and Cynthia, here's something else. You know, fundraising is a relational business. I get it. That's how I've lived my career. However, it's a bottom line business. There's got to be um growth, there's got to be real income that develops, and they're and there are ways of measuring whether you're on the right track for that. You know, not you know, I just I say to people all the time, goals are floors, they're not ceilings, but there are ways, and you know, there are ways to measure the capacity of a fundraiser capacity of an organization and see how you can grow it. Now, it's been my experience in your in your vertical on the social services. These people uh either don't understand that they're a business, or they actually have this aversion to the fact that they're a business. How do you deal with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we did. I'm gonna answer the question, but I'm gonna back up first because this is the question, okay? Um we did a research project end of 2025, into 2026, where we interviewed and surveyed nonprofit leaders in this space, social services, human services, okay. Um and we found some amazing things that get at the problem you just mentioned. 82% of them report that they can't sleep the night before a donor meeting because they are that afraid of it. Most of these leaders came from the program side of the house, right? Program side of the shop. Um a lot of them have views on wealth that are probably not aligned with their donors because they've given their life and service to people, by and large, living in poverty. Okay. Number three, they feel that if a donor says no, then it's actually a condemnation of them as an individual. Not that it is a I have a different priority. I care about trafficking and you're in food security. Uh they view it as a personal rebuke. And so we partner with the neuroscientist. Well, the other thing about part of the brain. Oh, go ahead, Larry.
SPEAKER_02Thing about that no, I tell people is first of all, the no's you get in this business are the nicest nose you'll ever get. All right. And they're often not, no, they are not for this thing, not in this way, not for this amount, not at this time. You see, it's not personal unless they make it personal. You know, and uh the uh I'm gonna get to this, I want you to get to this other thing, but see uh a lot of these people in your sector, they don't really appreciate the fact that they're running a business that requires a workable funding model, you know, it's not a matter of going out with your handout and hoping for the best. And I know you're way beyond that. Um, and then you also you were very careful in politics, and I'll just say it because I'm running this podcast. There are a lot of people in your area that have very negative views of people with resources. They think they either got them somehow um, you know, um inappropriately or that they're not being generous, or yada yada yada, or just because they're uh have resources, they should be giving it away.
SPEAKER_01I mean, the a lot of that's out there, and as you know, that is it is out there in the ether and it's a strong current in the and it's very counterproductive to engaging serious donors.
SPEAKER_02Um, because you know, people who are who have means and who are philanthropically inclined, I don't mean the jerks, there are plenty of jerks, keep moving on. Okay, I'm talking about the people who philanthropically inclined, they feel a great responsibility to use this money wisely, correct? And that they're looking for it to be productive in a way that they define what that means, you know, and then it it's it and that's it, they're being good stewards of what they've been given, you see. And by the way, in my in my career, and I've been in this a little longer than you, I have found what I call reverse snobbery far more commonplace than the other part. You know, oh he's rich, let's hold our nose. Oh no, no, it's the other way around, usually, you know, it's it is so we found actually three things that were really fascinating.
SPEAKER_01One was the higher the stakes that the CEO thought that they were engaging with, the more anxious they were, which kind of makes sense, right? Like if I'm trying to solve this problem, help these people, the higher the stakes, or the larger the growth ambitions, the more anxious they were about asking for money. Okay, that was number one. Number two, we partnered with a neuroscientist. And the same center of the brain that operates when you're about to anticipate physical pain, when you're about to go under for surgery, when you're about to get into a car accident, that same center of the brain was being activated before donor conversations. The brain, they were allowing their brains to wire itself so that donor conversations and the social no, the social threat of being told no was triggering the pain centers of their brain, the threat center of their brain, something that must be avoided at all at all costs, right? And number three, and this gets to what you called reverse snobbery. No, I'm not saying that, folks. Larry's saying that. Uh, but uh he is he's right about this. They were very afraid of telling stories of their program participants because they thought that it was not honoring to their program participants.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that is so upside down.
SPEAKER_01So let's let's unpack this a little bit more because I'm passionate about this, okay? But do you know who they never asked about it? Okay. So the program participants, and I used to be in direct service for a long time. I know how this works. They don't want to be exploited for a dollar. They don't want bad pictures of themselves being put out there on the internet. But I have never met a person who did not say, I would like, if it's possible, my story to be told so that others don't have to face the same thing I'm facing. And this reverse snobbery, okay, uh, this almost ivory tower elitism has kept people in the space from telling ethical stories about the work that they're doing in a way that a donor who wants to change the world can understand. Okay.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it's taking those people's agency away.
SPEAKER_01Correct.
SPEAKER_02That's what it is. It's like, well, you don't understand, I'm gonna protect you from this big bad guy over here. And so, yeah. Uh I did a uh I I guess well, this was oh, it's been 10 years now. I did a campaign for um a regional mental health uh system in Colorado. Uh they had a hospital and maybe 17 or 18 clinic sites, and they did everything from outpatient, inpatient, everything, drug rehab, everything. Uh, and uh we were doing a campaign, and of course, a part of that is to do uh small group meetings of pre-selected potential donors, uh usually in the donor's home. Uh, we're talking about people with significant ability, and the CEO, um, delightful lady, she was your classic uh social worker, same attitude. Oh, we can't possibly listen, Sharon, you've got to do this. And I said, trust me on this. And so, you know, we we got people that were, quote, ready for prime time and were willing to do this, and they get up there, and the first time she did it, um, we were in Vail, um, and I think I forget the guy's name, but uh, he was the lead guitarist on one of these heavy metal bands, and he was he was attending because his son had gotten into into drugs and he was he was interested in this. So, well, we put someone up there. Uh, I forget this lady had um you know tried to kill herself two or three times, and finally they were able to correct the issue, and she got out on her own. When she was done, there wasn't a dry eye in the place. There was so much silence there and the impact of what that had. Well, let me tell you, that turned Sharon into a maniac. Then she was like, Okay, this is what we're gonna do. And she she was raising money hand over fist, that she connected, she understood what the need was, and she put the people in their position where they could understand it as well. You see, that's what it was all about, and then and then the person loved telling their story because then they were validated. Look, look where I've come from. I've come from near death, and it was this group, this mental health holidays that put me there. Wow, and then she was eternally grateful. There you go. There you go. Don't take people's agency away, let them be themselves.
SPEAKER_00Don't do it.
SPEAKER_02No. So um, do you do capital campaigns?
SPEAKER_01We do capital campaigns every once in a while. When we built the company, there was a sense that there was enough capital campaign uh consultants out there, so we wanted to get into the the longer-term brick and mortar, you know, uh everyday fundraising activities.
SPEAKER_02So, what's the um what and I know there's nothing that's typical, but but what is the typically uh the length of your engagements with the cut with the client?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, about 12 to 18 months is our typical.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01It's enough that you actually can build something meaningful, uh, but not so long that you get stale and bored of each other.
SPEAKER_02Now, you've got, I'm just curious how you do this. You you're working people part-time, all right, and do they ever make physical visits to the client or is it all virtual? How does it work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so we very rarely go on site, and one of the reasons why is that many of our clients are already distributed geographically, so they have their staff spread out all over the country or all over the world.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um, so I can think of only a handful that have headquarters uh anymore. Um, the rest have pretty virtual cultures.
SPEAKER_02So um what what's the typical um size organization in terms of uh uh how much money they're currently raising andor uh total program revenue? What's this typical?
SPEAKER_01Our typical clients are in the two and a half million to 15 million space.
SPEAKER_02Or uh fundraising or overall operations?
SPEAKER_01For overall private revenue, not including government grants.
SPEAKER_02Okay, no, that's a that's a Faustan bargain. Um and you were uh I wanted this just came to me when you said um uh well in all these all these histories, you know, uh government hasn't solved these problems, blah blah blah. Reminds me, and you're not are you old enough to remember Ronald Reagan?
SPEAKER_01Yes, okay, all right. I'm also a Washington, so okay.
SPEAKER_02Well, one of his one of his favorite lines was if a man comes to you and says, I'm from the government and I'm here to help you, his response is run like hell. Because you the person needs to have a solution that comes from them. You see, having something imposed on them from the outside never solves the problem, and uh, but something that they can create on their own, and then that they can use private funding or organic funding to do that. Um, now what do you think about this? Uh, do you do you know the guy, a man by the name of Russell James?
SPEAKER_01I've heard of him, but I don't know much.
SPEAKER_02Well, Russell James is a good friend of mine, but but more importantly, he's a very, very thorough um um uh statistician in the philanthropic community, and he's done all this study on uh where where wealth is, how it's engaged, you know, and and and back the way we've used him here at the A Principles to demonstrate some of the things we do, but that's a different question. But here's one thing he said, and and if you're interested, I can provide you an introduction with Russell, he's a nice guy. Uh overall, for any nonprofit organization, anyone, okay, not the whole sector, they're only accessing about 15% of the funds that are actually available to them. Think about that.
SPEAKER_00I I would buy that any day. That sounds about right to me.
SPEAKER_02And and the primary reason for that, he says, is that number one, they're they're going for short-term cash, they're bottom feeding. And so those gifts will only get so large. And because most of the wealth is not in cash, it's in assets. And so unless you're engaging assets uh which take a higher level of relationship, a longer relationship, uh uh, you're not getting anywhere close to what you could raise if you want to. And I suspect, correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that your clients, not that a good number of your clients would be afraid of assets. They wouldn't know how to deal with them. Am I right?
SPEAKER_01You are absolutely wrong about that, actually.
SPEAKER_02All right, well then fill me in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so they they are not afraid of it. They want it at the same time when you have a person in front of you. Cash now is better than a bequest in 20 years. Okay. So they're trying to assets or other assets, I think. Yeah, they are trying to thread the needle, right, with the money they need today to serve the people they have in front of them. Um, with the how do we build the future? Okay. And there's some horror stories out there, right? Hundred million dollar capital campaigns that were all asset-based, and at the end of the campaign, there's no money to do the work next year. Uh, so there are some big horror stories out there. I try to teach them that they need to create blended portfolios with donors. Okay. Part of it has to be cash, part of it has to be stocks and bonds, part of it has to be other assets that they have, which is why they have to have a horizon of 10, 15, 20, 25 years. Oh, yes. You're not trying to build a one and done relationship to extract resource. And usually these relationships start out in cash. People aren't getting uh their their non-cash assets right away. Okay. But it's very, even for a guy my age, it would not be unheard of for me to say, okay, here's your cash gift this year. And oh, by the way, you're a beneficiary of a life insurance policy or a will or uh, you know, whatever. Um, and I think that the more people get accustomed to the both and nature of plan giving, the better they'll become. I don't like when people uh pit cash versus assets because actually the organizations need both. Uh they need cash gifts now. Uh so I always tell them blended portfolio over time, uh, with the the larger asset gifts coming later in the relationship.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's as you said, you heard the it's what I call the tyranny of the urgent. I'll take a cash gift now, thank you. Now, what you really want is both. Um, you want what what they can give now, uh, because it's uh uh giving is a habit, being connected is a habit. You want to get that relationship, but then the the asset gifts be it a um um uh a material asset, uh tradable securities, real estate, whatever it might be, uh, and then there's the other pieces, the the trusts and the and the insurance and all that, uh, that comes later. And so have you found that most of your clients uh are willing to uh create the infrastructure it takes to process those gifts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so on the on the smaller side, they're very willing for the brokerage account type thing. And then I find that it's not until they get to be about five and a half to six million in in revenue that they start saying, oh wow, I really need to create much better infrastructure uh for more complex gifts. And we have a list of preferred partners that can help them, help them do that.
SPEAKER_02Okay, all right. Well, I live out in the uh in the Boise Valley, and we've had a lot of growth in the last, well, since I've been here 20 years. Oh, 20 years. And so there's a lot of land here uh that has been farmland for a long, long time that's now being developed for one reason or the other. And so you essentially have zero basis land sitting out there that's tripled, quadrupled, quintupled in value. All right, and so um you'll find this interesting. This was a few years ago. I was uh I was asked to work with a uh uh uh independent school on their capital campaign, and I came in kind of midstream, James. So I would have this would have never happened if I'd been in the beginning. But they had some farmers that were get this selling selling, hold on a minute. Okay, oh he's leaving a voicemail, good um that were selling selling zero basis land and giving the proceeds to the school. I was like, what you're doing, what and the school was accepting this, they didn't know any better. And and the true irony of this is these guys, James, were very conservative Dutch farmers. Taxes, I don't pay taxes, and so at the end of that tax year, when the tax man came came calling, well, all of us income tax, capital gains, all these things. And I just think no, all they had to do was give it to the school. Well, then then what do we do with it? Well, you can do anything you want to with it, you can sell it and use the procedure and do anything you want with it, you see. Oh well, see, there was this lack of sophistication, lack of knowledge, yeah. In dealing with that, and so I don't know what happened. I said stop right now, don't do any more of that. Inform your people you don't want them to sell anything because it was it was zero basis, James. You know, essentially, yeah. So, well, we've covered a lot of territory, but I always give you the top opportunity to add something. So, what would you like to add that we haven't talked about? I know you're a nice guy, so we don't have to sell that anymore, but what would you like to add?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you asked me in the beginning the traits that I think make a great fundraiser. I want to add to it as we close. Sure. And I think I would add courage to the list, yeah. Okay. Um, the world we live in is not the easiest world, you know, out there uh right now. The political divides, the cultural divides, social, there's just a lot that tear people apart. And fundraising at its core is about bringing people together to solve big challenges. It should be so to the curiosity, to the drive, to all the things that we mentioned, courage. Uh, I don't want people listening to lose heart because something is hard for a season. Okay. Stick with it, get five percent better every year, learn as you go, get out there and do the work, and things start paying off.
SPEAKER_02Well, if you can manage to get five percent better every year, I mean you're gonna be at the top of your game in five years.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, do it.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01I try to get five percent more productivity out of my farm every year.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Why wouldn't I? By by pruning, by cutting, by fertilizer, by weed control, you know, all these different things. That's a farm where I sell flowers for fun to like florists and wedding planners, okay? It's uh it's a you know, on-the-side hustle that maybe will help me put my kids through college one day. Uh, we'll see. If I'm trying to get five percent better at that, and you, nonprofit leader that's listening, are solving one of those intractable problems in the world, you better be trying to get at least five percent better every year.
SPEAKER_02All right, okay, James. Well, I've just thoroughly enjoyed this. This has been a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01It has been. Thanks for having me on, Larry.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's my pleasure. Um, if uh send me an email if you want an introduction to Russell. Uh, he's lit, he's out in Texas, and he'll share all of his information with you. He's really, really open about that. So well, you know, I've had the delightful conversation with James Miss Meissner, and uh and I want to thank him for agreeing to be my guest today. And I also want to thank you, the audience, for taking some time to tune in. Uh, you know, we're on um YouTube and we're also on the audio channels. So again, thank you. Next time, somebody thank you for listening today. Join us for our next episode when I'll have another thought provoking leader as my guest. Guest comments and opinions are their own. The recording is copyright by the eight principles, all rights reserved.
