Putting Leadership Success in Your Way with Rob Hatch - Part 1

So many demands on your time and decisions to make.  

How does one get everything done and experience leadership success as a Nonprofit Executive Director?

On today's episode, Tim and Nathan share part 1 of their interview with Rob Hatch, co-founder and President of Owner Media group.  Rob is also the author of Attention!: The power of simple decisions in a distracted world.

Rob shares about his journey as a Nonprofit Executive Director and what he has learned about leading yourself and your organization.  Among other practical wisdom, Rob talks about  3 Key Principles:

1. Willpower Is Limited
2. Decisions are a Distraction
3. Habits are a Powerful Force

You can contact Rob at https://robhatch.com.

Tim Barnes serves as the Executive Vice President of International Association for Refugees (IAFR) and can be contacted at tim@iafr.org.

Nathan Ruby serves as the Executive Director of Friends of the Children of Haiti (FOTCOH) and can be contacted at Nathan@fotcoh.org.

They can also be reached at www.nonprofiltleader.online.

All opinions and ideas shared on the podcast are those of the hosts and do not represent the opinions or ideas of their respective organizations.

Transcript

Timothy Barnes  0:08  
Welcome to Episode 24 of the practice of nonprofits leadership. I'm Tim Barnes. Nathan Ruby will be with us in just a minute. Well, Nathan and I are really excited about our episode today. Just about a year ago, we reached out to someone who we had followed online, for whom we gained a lot of wisdom and encouragement. We asked if he would provide some coaching to us, to help us figure out where we were and how we wanted to go forward with some of our ideas. One of the outcomes of those sessions is this podcast. Well, that person is Rob hatch, and he's going to join us on the podcast today. Rob is a co founder and president of owner Media Group, which he runs alongside Chris Brogan. He's also a highly sought after business coach and advisor, surveyed executives and owners of organizations large and small. Most recently, he is also the author of the book, attention, the power of simple decisions in a distracted world, which both Nathan and I have found extremely helpful. Rob is also a husband to Megan and an award winning photographer, and is the father of four children. We had a lot of fun recording this episode. And Rob shares so much practical wisdom about leading, in particular leading ourselves. And the fact that Rob actually got his started the nonprofit world makes it even more insightful to the work in which we all are involved. So here's part one of our interview with Rob hatch. Well, Rob, thanks for joining us on the practice of nonprofit leadership. We were just talking before we started recording that it was just a little less than a year ago, we Nathan and I reached out to you to have a conversation about some coaching. And we spent a few sessions with you, you asking questions and challenges us encouraging us. And here we are 23 episodes later on this podcast. So we're, we're glad you're here because you're we want to share what little joy we have here with you. So Rob, Thanks for Thanks for being with us today.

Rob Hatch  2:17  
Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. It's good to see you again.

Timothy Barnes  2:21  
You too. Well, I was really encouraged as I as I got to know you a little bit and I read some of your your book. And we're going to talk about that a minute. But I was I was encouraged that you actually started in the nonprofit world, which is really beneficial because that's who we're talking to small to medium. Nonprofits, executive directors are trying to figure their way through. And so you bring some of that experience to this conversation. They maybe tell us a little bit about what that what that look like.

Rob Hatch  2:49  
Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, I got into the nonprofit world, by way of being in early childhood education. That was where I started running childcare centers actually being a teacher at some point. But I wanted to move to Maine and then bring that skill of running a business, you know, of the business of childcare. But thinking that that that focus could be really well applied inside of a nonprofit. And I just got lucky enough that it was a child, an early childhood focused nonprofit as well. So that was called the Child Health Center. And at the time, it served children, families, with special children with special needs and their families. So spent about eight years leading that organization as the executive director, it was some some of the best experiences of my professional career for sure.

Timothy Barnes  3:47  
I'm curious. And I'm sure we'll talk more about this. But as you have had your feet in both worlds, are there? Are there similarities are the challenges, similar the things that you know, that you wrestle with? Or the struggles that you have? Do you find that similar to the business world as well as nonprofit world?

Rob Hatch  4:05  
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it's similar. I mean, it is running a business after all, but for me, the best part of being in nonprofit world was being mission driven. That that changed everything. When I especially when I came in, I inherited a mission at the Child Health Center, focus, having that focus, and be the driver of the decisions that you make around what programs to take on how to serve, who to serve. It really clarified things I could always balance it against the mission and say, Are we actively, you know, serving children and families in the way that we say we do. You know, we wanted to I can't even remember the mission because I said it so many times. It was to improve the lives of children and families by providing skills, knowledge, and support to help them achieve their goals in life and I always anchored to their goals in life. This idea that it wasn't our goals for them, they got to say what they wanted. And then we got to gather around them and support them. So having that as a driver thinking about how do we shape programs that come alongside families, rather than, sort of top down, we know what's best for families, how do we get to do that, but also bring our skills and knowledge and support, you know, to the table, because we do have some specialized skills that, that maybe this family doesn't have, but it all has to come from their goals and, and teasing those out with them. So I love that that was my favorite part of this,

Nathan Ruby  5:39  
you know, the taking a vision and mission like that for helping children's and families to achieve whatever their goals are. It is that sounds rather simple, maybe are easy to attain. But it is incredibly difficult to, to take what that family is looking for. And then bringing alongside board members and staff and leadership and donors and the community to bring everybody behind that all going in the same direction. It is it is difficult, and it is exhausting for a nonprofit leader to do that.

Rob Hatch  6:23  
Absolutely. And, you know, there are ways in which I feel like we nailed it. And there are many other ways where I feel like we didn't, and you mentioned board and donors. And that's that was the biggest challenge in it all. For me. So the the thing I don't miss about the nonprofit world was chasing down money. Now, in a business, you're always looking for sales still, right? There is the element. But trust trying to find money. And watching the political landscape from year to year, we had we had much of our money was Grant foot grant funded. And then we also, by virtue of the specialized pediatric therapies we offered, we could build the state, you know, for certain certain therapies, but finding quality people paying them well, and getting you know, reimbursement is just and having to watch that from year to year was That was exhausting. And so I the areas that were most challenging for me it was was the board involvement. I mean, I had a good support, they supported me really well to be entrepreneurial. And that was fun. But I didn't, you know, my failing, I think is that I didn't lean on them or let them lead as much as they just gave me permission to do what I wanted to do, which I was like, Okay, this is fun. But, but when I needed a real board, I failed at, you know, pulling that together building that board relationship, I didn't feel like I did that as well as I could have, you know, upon reflection.

Nathan Ruby  8:02  
Yeah, you know, sometimes when Tim and I are doing a recording one of our sessions, and we're talking about whatever the topic of the day is, and we start to think about it and either before the show or after the show, and we realize what we're talking about today, that's like, you know, that could be a full time job. And then next week's episode, well, that could be a full time job. And that could be a full time job. And for a lot of our of our listeners, you know, it's just them or maybe, you know, full of volunteers or something. And and so that constant struggle of where do I put my attention? Where do I put my focus becomes a daily issue for them?

Rob Hatch  8:40  
I absolutely. And often, you know, you hear the phrase, you know, the executive directors wear so many hats, and it you know, it gets overused or whatnot. But it's so true. I mean, there were entire stretches of, of days that I spent in Augusta, Maine, which is where our state capitol is just having to do a lot of communication lobbying work around the issues that were central to our organization. And that was both fun, but it is exhausting. I mean, a lot of great opportunities. I was fortunate enough to through that work. I got nominated to be the co chair of a legislative subcommittee that got to shape the policy around specialized pediatric therapies and maintenance, special education in Maine. That's really exciting. But also that's a lot of work and a full time job. And I still had an organization to run back home. But this was it was critical to get, you know, make sure that the system was in place, but the fact that my executive director has to be mindful of keeping an entire statewide system in place in order to serve the children that they serve is insane. Well,

Timothy Barnes  9:53  
you know, one of the as we've talked about, I think one of the biggest challenges as an executive director of an organization is is managing themselves in some ways trying to decide, where do I put my energy? How do I have the biggest impact some of those kinds of things? And I reading the book, your book and attention was a game changer. In a lot of ways. For me, Nathan, I have talked about that. Maybe just even talking about where that book come from? Was it out of your experience?

Rob Hatch  10:23  
Yes. A lot of it is out of my own experience. And, you know, it also comes I wrote the book, because I had it in me, you know, for a while, and I'd had the pieces in me I had a course that was that was similar way back when that I had developed, that many of the the elements of the book are drawn from. But it also, interestingly enough, is tied to my mission. You know, my personal mission, literally write it out every day, which I borrowed from the child health center pieces of it, is to help others do their work better. And again, their work, right, I don't know what it is, that's important to them, but I need to come alongside them and help them do it. So that model for me, is in my mission. And with attention, I have felt the pain of being pulled in a million different directions of being completely scattered of not knowing what to do, when to do it. Of trying to always be available to the people that I supervised that or the to the board, or whomever I was, our organization had about 45 employees. And I would be on site every single day. And I was one of those managed by walking around folks. I was I was a door open always manager. I regret a lot of that, to be honest with you. I think I did. I did. Okay, I made it work. But the idea that I would allow those interruptions in my day, you know, someone who would walk in just knock on the door, and I would drop everything and focus on them. What I realized, eventually, before I left that organization was I was splitting my attention, I still had something I was working on on the screen for let's say, you know, maybe I'm writing a grant, and you knock on the door, and you come in, and I say sure have a seat. I am not giving you my full attention. My brain is still working on that grant. And I'm trying to give you everything but I cannot do it. And so now I'm failing in two areas, the grant and and in you. So I started one of the first, you know, realizations there was to say, I can't right now. And you know, can we can you come back and started to set up some of those boundaries for me realizing that my attention would get split, and that I wasn't going to be honoring the person or the work I was doing. So it's I had to make a choice. All of this really comes from a couple of different things, but an experience I had on vacation when I was away with my family on Cape Cod. And I still, like many of us bring a little work on vacation. And wish wish I didn't. But I did. I mean, it's unfortunate that I did because it was the kernel of the book. But I had some work that I needed to get done. But I made some really clear decisions, I was gonna get up before anyone else. So I didn't interrupt my family's vacation, I was only going to work on three things. I set some rules for myself around not checking social media and not checking email, because that would pull me in. So I just did three very specific things. I knew exactly what I was supposed to do exactly what I was going to get done. And exactly a limited amount of time that I could get it done. And before everyone started waking up. And I did it every just about every day of the vacation. But after a few days, I got to the beach with my wife and I said you know, I've accomplished more. In those couple of hours before anyone woke up than I've ever accomplished in an entire day in an office. It's just remarkable how, how much I was able to get done. And what I came back and I have a good friend who we coach each other we have for about nine years now we have weekly conversations for nine years, which is amazing to me. Her name is Becky McCray, and Becky and I kind of teased apart why that was true. She helped me to kind of pull it all apart and figure out what what made that work and why. And then I started to do a little bit more research into those elements and put it all together. So attention is really driven from this idea that we're overwhelmed and I want to help people create some space. I want to help people do their work better. And doing your work better means being able to decide where you're going to put your attention and on what and on the important things and prioritizing, so creating that space. And it came from that next experience really of realizing that and now I've replicated that I've that's the the end of that story was how do I replicate what happened every day in an office? gets back to those boundaries and making the decisions the night before? So

Timothy Barnes  15:16  
well, I if you haven't picked up the name of the book is attention and the sub the subtitle? Can you remind me, Rob, the subtitle is?

Rob Hatch  15:25  
Yes. Wow, I can't believe I just stumped on my own. Subtitle there the power of simple decisions in a distracted world. Wow. Working this morning, yeah, simple decisions. That's the other thing. I don't want things to be complex. I want it to be easy. I am not a I don't know. I'm not a work harder person. I'm a work Work smarter person. And if I can find not a shortcut, but if I, if I know somewhere in there, that there's just a better way to do this, do something. I want to figure it out. And then so yeah, simple decisions. In a distracted world,

Timothy Barnes  16:04  
what data you were talking about just the hustle culture that we're in? Why don't you?

Nathan Ruby  16:09  
Yeah, you know, in the know in the world. And I even get it with some of the some of the people I talk to on a daily basis, some of my friends, even some of my neighbors, and you get to people and hey, what's new, what's going on? And it and it always goes back to Oh, I'm so busy. I'm doing this and this and this. And this. And, and it's a in our culture right now, at least in the American culture, it is, the more you work, the more hours you put in, the more busy you are. It's like a badge of honor. And at at, you know, closer to 60 than I am 45. I don't I don't I don't want to work longer harder. I still want the output. But I don't I just I don't want to do that anymore. And so for me, that culture shift in my head, it's been difficult, because that's been ingrained into me for decades. And so how do you make that shift in your head that, you know, I don't have to work 14 hours a day, six days a week to be successful in my chosen field?

Rob Hatch  17:11  
Well, I mean, it's hard because one, you know, if we grew up in this culture that sort of ingrained that that hard work is, is how you make it in this world. Right. But that got twisted even further with that hustle and grind culture that you're talking about. And, and the sort of badge of honor that it became. But I think it takes some stepping back. And I, I had hoped, and I believe still that that, you know, the pandemic kind of caused a little shift, I need to be noticing it in advertising. There's a new ad for, I can't remember which car I believe it's Volvo. Where in which they're saying, yes, we want to work hard. We want to strive for things, but we want it done on our terms. And I was like, oh, that's there, they're playing on this shift that's happening, that people are kind of fed up. And maybe rethinking what their priorities are. So that's the silver lining, and one of the silver linings, I think in, in forcing us to shut down is to look at, look at what really what's important. And if we can carry that over much like, you know, I did at the from the beach to daily work like hot. If if we really if that felt good in any way. Maybe start talking with someone about how you can continue that and not get sucked right back in hard and fast paced culture, hard to do in, in a and you know, when you're wearing all those hats and a nonprofit. But at the same time, it, it's so much more rewarding to think I'm working on things that are really important right now. Not filling my time with busy, busy work. And some of it needs to get done. But there's ways to shape that I just, it's about reclaiming your time, just enough to make a decision that that reclaiming that space between stimulus and response. When you see something, you can just pause for half a second before you react. And think about Wait, how do I want to react, if you start practicing that little thought just a little bit, you start getting more and more space, you get a little bit more control, you can start aligning those decisions with your value. You don't have to buy, you know, the sale item just because it's on sale. You know, for example, like wait a second, this doesn't align with my personal budget. This doesn't align with my personal values. It's a good deal, but it doesn't have to be a good deal for me right now. You know, things like that simple things.

Timothy Barnes  19:42  
I think that's a real shift because it's easy, I think, as a particular small, nonprofit executive. To feel like I don't really have much choice. I've got so many things going on. I forget that I actually do have have an opportunity to make decisions and choose how I'm going to lead how I'm going to live out my life in this situation?

Rob Hatch  20:08  
Well, it makes me think, as you're saying that, I think part of the culture is that we always feel like we're behind. Because there's always more to do tomorrow, and the next day and the next day and the next day, so we never actually catch up to anything. So if we can accept that we're never going to catch up, like there's always more to do, you can pause for a second and say, Alright, well, what, what is a reasonable sustainable effort here? So let's think donors for a second and the relationships that you want to make with those donors. And you always feel like, you got to do more, I wish I did done more. And I gotta send out these cards and thank yous and supposed to, you know, have 12 touches before the next Ask and all of these things, you know, if we could slow it down and just say, Okay, what, what am I going to do this week? And for how many people? You know, I, if I reached out to five of my hundreds of donors, just this week, it's one a day, how am I going to do it, I'm going to do, you know, five phone calls of 10 minutes just to say hi, catch them up on with some of the new developments. Thanks them again, that's it, or I'm going to write five note cards, it's better than doing nothing or feeling completely pinched. Because you were caught up in everything else that you never get to it. And now you're really, really behind. But that you, I don't know what it was, in your words, that just made me feel like that. That's part of the problem is just feeling like we're always trying to catch something. And we're never if we acknowledge that it's not going to be caught. And just think, what what do we need to do right now? What's the most important thing for me to be doing? Right now,

Nathan Ruby  21:51  
I just was going to add the end what I think that happens, it happens to me, I know and other people that I've talked to, when you get so far behind, and you feel like you're just you know, circling the toilet bowl as you're going down. You just quit or you give up or you you get this defeatism? And then that's a self perpetuating, you know, mind concept.

Rob Hatch  22:14  
It's, that's yeah, I mean, so many bad things happen when you find yourself in that scenario. It's also in that moment when, and this is sort of where I wish I had been better with my board. Creating a culture where I could be a little bit vulnerable with them, to let them know that I was a little overwhelmed without fear of losing my job, because that's real, right? I mean, we say we don't do this for for, you know, for the money, you do it for the mission and everything else, that that somehow justifies us taking crappy salaries. But but the, but we got to feed our families. I mean, this is this is important. So, you know, having the ability to have a support network inside that, inside that organization, somehow, even if you're the solo person, or if it's got to be outside finding someone that you can that you can speak with another nonprofit executive. Years and years ago, Chris Brogan and I tried to start a, you know, an online nonprofit executive director community called 501 mission place. And it didn't work out really well. But the idea the concept of executive directors needing support, particularly outside of the circle that they're in, because I don't know about, you know, you but sometimes the competition among those nonprofits that are local, is a little cutthroat. And I don't miss that I tend to, you know, there's a lot of collaboration on certain things. But really, if I can take an extra 5% On my side, I'm going to do it because it serves my organization, you know,

Nathan Ruby  23:58  
comes a zero sum game. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Rob Hatch  24:01  
But we need support is really it.

Nathan Ruby  24:04  
Yeah, I don't think there's anything more isolated than a small organizational Executive Director. They just they're isolated, and there is no place for them to go to vent or to for support, or sometimes even for help you have

Timothy Barnes  24:19  
some key phrases in your book attention, and that I grabbed onto him. But one of those Well, let me just say this first. I appreciate that. You talked a lot about creating frameworks, kind of systems, and kind of just instead of just waiting for things to happen and actually taking initiative, but one of the phrases that you use a lot is putting success in your way. Yeah, you talk about that. That's, I just appreciated kind of your thoughts around that phrase.

Rob Hatch  24:48  
Sure. Put success in your way. I still think about it every every single day. The basic idea comes, but success in your way is based on a principle based on three elements, willpower is limited. So we don't have an endless supply of willpower throughout the day, it kind of runs out decisions are distractions, much like willpower, you know it, for every decision we make, our ability to make subsequent decisions is degraded. And that habits are a powerful biological or neurobiological force that we can actually leverage. So taking those three elements, if we, if we can just agree that those things are true for a moment that I'm going to run out of willpower, that having too many decisions in front of me, is going to tap my energy, and that I could actually build some habits that would make life easier. I mean, one example. I mean, what would we, we don't have to think about tying our shoes, right? I mean, it just, it is so ingrained, that it's just muscle memory at this point. So if we had to spend any time thinking about how we tie our shoe, or how we brush our teeth, or any of those ingrained habits, it would be exhausting. So our brain wants those things in place, those sort of easy things. So if we take that, and we sort of look at applying that to the idea, the principle of put success in your way, it's how do I avoid tapping my willpower? How do I avoid making too many decisions? And how do I rely on on some habits, the example that I use in the book that I like, because it's just so simple, and so real for me was whenever I would, you know, if I'm, if I'm taking up exercise, going to go out for a run or whatnot, that's hard to the hardest part for me is getting out of bed. And getting outside, if I can get outside, I'm going to run, there's just no two ways about it, I will move my body in some way, shape, or form. But the distance from my bed to the door, outside is huge. So if I have to think about where my clean socks, where are my clothes? Where are my headphones, where, you know, what do I need to wear? Is it cold? Is it hot? Where am I going to go today, all those things will trip me up. Those are a lot of little tiny decisions that will exhaust me and tap my willpower to get get out the door. So rather than using willpower to get out the door, I would put success in my way, by gathering everything that I would need the decisions made, I'm running at this time I'm going this far, here are the clothes because I checked the weather is right next to the bed, my shoes are there, everything I need is there. So really, all I do is sort of fall out of bed into my clothes, now I'm out the door. And I didn't have to expend any of that energy. Trying to get there in the morning, I can now use the willpower to push myself on my run a little bit. Which is a to me a better use of my willpower. So you take that to work. And we'll talk about the story, you know, on vacation there. The night before I before I leave for my day to go back home or back into my life, because I work at home, I decide what I'm going to work on the next day I get really specific, particularly around three, I have a two hour block of time and I choose three projects of about 40 to 45 minutes. And they've got to be really specific for me. So the decision is made and the things that I need are available. And in that way, I don't have to worry about making decisions or applying willpower to do it. I also have some rules. I don't check email before that block of time. If I do, I'm done. Email is this is a phrase borrowed from from my business partner, Chris. Email is the perfect delivery system for somebody else's agenda. And I'm I want to have some control over my agenda for at least a portion of the day. So this is where I think it had I done this more as an executive director, I think it would have been even more successful and better a better servant to the mission to the people that I was around. If I had set that up and just close the door and work for two solid hours on three, moving three projects forward. And then went into my day and made myself available walked around checked in. I you know it would have been much easier to handle and you start to see the progress. Because you decided the night before last night guy as I like to call them got everything ready for me. So tomorrow guy when he wakes up he's gonna have everything you need to think about it decisions made. And there's a clarity in making that decision than before. You kind of stepping back a little bit because you're not in it. Right? You know, oh my gosh, the day is just beginning. What do I do? What do I need to do? What's Oh crap, you know, this email came in from so and so let me respond. shut it all down. Take 510 minutes at the end of your day. Choose and those rules are really important not not allowing those interruptions. I even I wanted to answer a phone call from my wife. We have a little rule or, if I'm in that success block is what I call it. If she calls me, I actually will ignore it. If she calls me twice, that's the bad signal and I better get up and answer the phone. Because something important has gone on in and but that's just how we've set it up.

Timothy Barnes  30:18  
Thanks for joining us for part one of our interview with Rob hatch. Part two will be coming next week. Rob's information, along with a link to his book attention will be in the show notes. If you're appreciating what you hear on this podcast, would you take a minute and leave a review on the platform you use to listen to the podcast. If you'd like to get in touch with Nathan or myself. Our emails are always in the show notes or you can contact us at nonprofit leader dot online. That's nonprofit leader dot online. Leave a comment or voicemail and let us know what topics you would like to hear or that you would find helpful. Until next time

Transcribed by https://otter.ai