The Practice of Nonprofit Leadership
The Practice of Nonprofit Leadership
Encore Episode: Leadership with Dr. Jack Groppel
With the start of a new year, here is an encore presentation of an interview we did with Dr. Jack Groppel back in 2023 on Leadership.
Dr Jack Groppel, co-founder of the Johnson & Johnson Human Performance Institute and current professor at Judson University, Elgin, IL joins Tim and Nathan on today's episode. His experience in working with world class athletes and sports teams to coaching top business leaders, provides plenty of real world thought on the topic of leadership.
Our fascinating conversation is packed with insights that can help you become a more effective, impactful leader. From the discussion on Energy Management vs Time Management to leading as a "Corporate Athlete" and then considering the idea include Agape Love as part of our leadership, Jack brings challenge after challenge to our quest for effective leadership.
Dr Jack Groppel can be contacted on Linked-in here.
The Hosts of The Practice of NonProfit Leadership:
Tim Barnes serves as the Executive Vice President of International Association for Refugees (IAFR)
Nathan Ruby serves as the Executive Director of Friends of the Children of Haiti (FOTCOH)
They can be reached at info@practicenpleader.com
All opinions and views expressed by the hosts are their own and do not necessarily represent those of their respective organizations.
Welcome to Episode 92 of the Practice of Nonprofit Leadership. I'm Tim Barnes.
Nathan Ruby:And I'm Nathan Ruby.
Tim Barnes:Well, nathan, I'm excited about our episode today. You know, as leaders of organizations, it's important to be reminded of the importance of leading ourselves, making decisions about our health, how we manage our energy and our focus and the priorities in our life, and those contribute to us being a more effective and impactful leader.
Nathan Ruby:Yeah, you know, tim, I started. Well, you and I have been kind of focusing this year, just privately between the two of us, on some health things and eating a little better, and maybe we don't need Pringles every day of our lives. But this actually hit home for me. I started about 15 years ago and I was sitting on my couch in the family room minding my own business and my wife brought in a jar for me to open and I couldn't open it. And as no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't open it. And so I did some research and I found out that after you reach a certain age that you start to lose muscle mass, and I said you know what? I am not letting that happen to me. And so that was when I started lifting.
Nathan Ruby:That was, I think, 15 years ago, and have been doing that ever since. And then a little bit recently. More recently, I was in a conversation with my wife and the kids were around and I said oh, I'm taking tomorrow off. And one of my kids I think it was our youngest said oh, so you're going to work like every other day of the week, and it was like that's not true, I don't do that. And my other kid said, dad, you've worked on every vacation we've ever had. And it's like, oh well, maybe there's a bit of an issue there that I need to address. So yeah, it's something that is near and dear to me and something that I try to pay attention to.
Tim Barnes:Well, our guest today is going to share some insights that will help us do a better job of leading ourselves so that we can lead others, and our guest today is Jack Groppel. Jack is an internationally recognized authority and pioneer in the science of human performance. He served as the co-founder of the Johnson Johnson Human Performance Institute. And Jack is also a recognized authority in sports research, having successfully worked with numerous world-class athletes and teams. He's also the author of the book the Corporate Athlete, which we'll talk about in just a bit, and a co-author of the Corporate Athlete Advantage, and currently Jack is a professor at Judson University, located in Elgin, illinois, in the Chicago area. And, jack, there's so much more I could say, but we're so glad that you're here today.
Jack Groppel:Well, thanks, guys. It's really great to be with you. I really appreciate the invitation.
Tim Barnes:I have to tell a quick story, jack, about how we first got connected. So when I was, I was living in central Illinois and there was a big leadership conference that came to our civic center in central Illinois and so my friend and I went and we spent some time at that conference and all kinds of speakers, world class speakers and there was a guy named Jack Grapple that shared and, for whatever reason, I was really taken by what you were sharing and so I ended up much to the chagrin of my wife, I think I bought some of your materials and brought it home. But it was really, it was impactful, it was really giving me a lot to think about. And then, about two or three years later, we had moved to the Chicago area and we had found a church and we were at a church and after church service we were visiting with people and in the background I heard this voice and I'm like I know that voice, but I don't know how I know that voice, and I turned around and it was.
Tim Barnes:Jack Groffel. And so anyway, Liz, my wife says I'm a fanboy, but I just appreciate what I've learned from you and I'm excited for you to be here today and to jump into some of these topics.
Jack Groppel:Well, it's a privilege. I'm honored at that story. I don't know if you've ever really shared that story with me.
Tim Barnes:I think I don't know if I did or not, but it's great that we had the opportunity to connect. And I learned a lot from you over the years, and so I appreciate it. I didn't mention any dates, so we won't say how long ago that was. Yeah, let's not. But, Jack, let's jump into this. There's so many things that we could talk about, but I'm really intrigued by the book that you wrote. First of all, the idea of a corporate athlete and how leadership and athletics go together and what we can learn from that.
Jack Groppel:Yeah, and I think first of all let's do a little bit of a disclaimer, because a lot of people might be listening to us and they'll go. Well, I'm not an athlete, so this won't pertain to me. It has nothing to do with whether you played sports or not. This has to do with really the Greek definition of athlete, which is an elite performer. That's not necessarily physical, I mean, it could be mental. You could be a really astute human being who solves problems really well. That could be an athletic performance. That's what I'm getting at. It's peak performance in what your arena of life is. If you're a stay-at-home spouse, I mean you've got to perform. Your kids don't care if you're having a rough day. If you've got young ones, I mean, and that's kind of how life is. I mean we go through life and what happens is we start skimming across the surface of life and we're not able to go deep because we haven't we haven't really mined that inner self of, of of high performance. So I think that the corp. So now let's, let's understand how we develop the corporate athlete concept and I, the first time I ever let's understand how we develop the corporate athlete concept and the first time I ever I developed.
Jack Groppel:It was in the early eighties and I was at a conference in Hilton Head, south Carolina, and I was doing it with Stan Smith, the former number one tennis player in the world, wimbledon, us Open champion, hall of Famer and Stan was in the twilight of his career and someone asked him what do you plan to do after you finish playing? He said I'm going to use everything I learned in sport. I'm going to apply it to my life in business. And I went oh my gosh, corporate athlete. And Stan knew I trademarked it immediately because I'm going, I have no idea.
Jack Groppel:But then it turns out it was way before its time. Because I'm going, I have no idea, but then it turns out it was way before its time. The world wasn't ready for that. And I think it's only recently, probably in the last decade and a half, that the world got ready for it. I mean, even when my book came out in 1999, I mean, the publisher didn't know, do we put this in the business section? Do we put this in the sports section? And so I think the idea of a corporate athlete is being at your best, who is your best self at whatever it is you do. That's what a corporate athlete is.
Tim Barnes:That's really helpful because, you know, our podcast really is focused on small to medium nonprofit executive directors non-profit executive directors and sometimes when you have these kind of conversations it's easy to think about, oh, these big corporations or these big organizations. But it really is true. Even for those of us that may lead a local non-profit who's trying to make a difference in their community, those things connect even at that level.
Jack Groppel:Well, it's very true. I mean you can't lead. You said it earlier you can't lead others unless you lead yourself. So being a corporate athlete doesn't necessarily it doesn't depend on how large your organization is. It depends on how you find your best self and then, as a leader, how you encourage others to find their best selves. I mean, if we did that, I mean it would be incredible.
Tim Barnes:It's interesting because, Jack, I heard you talk about things, uh, you know, several years ago that I think now everybody talks about it, you know. And so, um, you know, one of those is the idea of you know of we talk about managing our time, but you talk about managing our energy. Can we dive into that a little bit? What does that mean to manage our energy?
Jack Groppel:Yeah. So the catchphrase to that is manage time, but don't manage time. Manage your energy, and the idea is that time is a finite commodity. I mean, everybody says I don't have time and I get it, but it's, and so it's not about finding more time. See, that's what everybody tries to do in time management. Time management never lived up to its uh, its posits. Time management said we'll get, we'll figure out how to teach you how to use your time. Never did it. Energy management, however, is how you use the time that you have. So when I work with people in time management, it's a 24 hour schedule. What are you doing with the time you have?
Jack Groppel:You can't have more time Now. How do you manage your energy and why human beings are biological. What we don't realize that energy is finite. Why human beings are biological. What we don't realize that energy is finite. We don't have infinite amounts of energy. In a very simplistic sense, why do you need sleep? You've got to recapture energy. Why do you need to eat? I mean not not having the wonderful Thanksgiving dinner I'm telling. Why do we need to eat? You've got to fuel the system. You've got to fuel energy. So food becomes a drug, if you will. I mean in many ways, how you fuel your brain and your body. You know, exercise, how you increase your capacity, has nothing to do with physical performance. It's increasing your capacity and, nathan, you're learning that by lifting weights, what you started with 15 years ago, you increased your capacity to open a jar. But again, don't go to the physical. It's about how we, as biological creatures, how we as biological organisms, recapture energy so we can increase our capacity to do all things in our life life.
Nathan Ruby:You know, jack, you're talking about managing energy, and one of the things I've learned in in my lifting and my working out is everything you ever read says oh, get up at you know 5.00 AM and get your workout done, and I can't. I can't do that. And I get up that early, my back hurts, my legs hurt. I can't do that. My energy level says for me to lift at about four o'clock in the afternoon. That's when I am at my best, and so that's how I work it into my schedule, and for years I felt bad about not doing it at five o'clock in the morning, but now it's like that's just. That's just, it works best for me and that's how I do it.
Jack Groppel:So I've got two things to say to that. Number one is you've got to do what works for you. That's number one. The idea that you figure out when is my ideal time. Now there are people listening that go, well, four o'clock, that's nice, nathan, that you can do that, but I don't have that ability, right right. So now we get to point number two that some would argue and I'm not saying this is your case, nathan, because you figured out what works for you at four o'clock, but what has to. But how others need to take this approach is that that four o'clock in the afternoon they say I can't do that. That's a counterproductive brain pattern. That's counterproductive.
Jack Groppel:So how do you create a productive brain pattern? Well, you've got to start small. Maybe you do need to exercise at five in the morning. Maybe that's the only time you have in your life where I mean, for some people, this is their spiritual time they have. The only alone time they have is five in the morning. So what you have to do is retrain your brain and your mind that it will work for you. Now that takes time for you. You went, okay, I did for me, I, by the way, I'm the same as you, I don't I I I played college tennis. I competed, you know, at a pretty high level and and I hated morning matches.
Nathan Ruby:I hated morning workouts.
Jack Groppel:But I also realize in today's world that the idea that I can't change is something that's not true. I'm working with a new company right now in a new field called NeuroLiteracy that we might be able to do another podcast on that, maybe in the fall. But that's literally dealing with counterproductive brain patterns and how do you build productive brain patterns so that you can actually coach yourself to change your behavior? So those are my two positions. But number one I agree with you that for me I'm the same, but I also know, like my father, I'll never forget. I wish I knew then what I know now. My father always said to me I'm stuck in my ways, I can't change. Now let's understand my father. Me and I were really estranged and he struggled in his life and it was really rough, but he literally dug his heels in the sand that I can't change, and that's not true. We can change at any stage in our life.
Tim Barnes:That's the field of neuroplasticity and neuroliteracy wow, we could go so many places with that. Can I, can I ask so? Um, I think this is along the same line, jack. So I've heard you talk about when it comes to energy management and we look at things like our physical or emotional or mental or spiritual some some things actually feed into us and some things take things out. I've seen you do like buckets and putting different things back and forth. Can you talk about how to understand that, like what gives us energy, what takes energy and how do we manage ourselves to make sure that's in sync?
Jack Groppel:Well, as leaders, we have to understand there, you know, our bucket needs to be. We need to figure out the things that fill our bucket, not the things that empty our bucket of life. So, you know, in in college, I mean, I love to say you know the there are. There are 10, 10% of the students that probably shouldn't be in college. I love them, still love them, but whether it's apathy, whether it's not academically ready, whatever it is, they're not there and it takes an amazing amount of energy to guide them.
Jack Groppel:Now, is that bad or good? I'm not evaluating whether it's bad or good. I'm not evaluating whether it's bad or good. What I am saying, however, is that sometimes you have to put so much energy into that that you can't take care of the 10 to 15% that are truly I mean excelling and truly have potential to make a difference, like right now and you're pulled so hard by certain areas that you can't, you don't, you don't have the energy to give. So what you have to do is step back and you always ask yourself this is my favorite question is what I just quoted on this just this week what matters most right now?
Jack Groppel:Always ask yourself that, as a leader, and sometimes it's yourself. What matters most right now is my self-care. See, we don't do that as leaders. We say what matters most, well, I got to take care of this team. No, no, no, no. What matters most very often is your own self-care, and then number two, if you have children, if you have a spouse, a partner, is your relationships. What matters most Because you've got to fuel the system. Again, human beings are biological organisms. If we don't fuel the system, the system breaks down. You know, a lot of people think they're stressed out. No, it's not the stress. See, without stress we would die. It's not the stress that kills us, it's the lack of recovery and the lack of recapturing energy that kills us, and that's a huge deal biologically.
Tim Barnes:Can you go a little further with the recovery side of things, because I think that is something that we, that we miss oftentimes.
Jack Groppel:Yeah. So you know again asking yourself what matters most right now is that that I have that I, that I take this emergency phone call, or that I take the emergency phone call in an hour and a half and get a quick workout in. I mean, honestly, I'm not trying to be the, I'm not a fitness nut. It's not about being a fitness nut, it's about the idea of how can you be your best self and without recapturing energy. So, for example, there's all kinds of little.
Jack Groppel:If I had you, if I had your audience, get a, get a mental picture of this that I have your held your arm out to the side and I put a, a three pound weight in it, I mean that's minimal. And I say, can you, can you do one set of 10? And they start laughing at me and I say, okay, now I want you to just do it for the next 20 minutes nonstop with a metronome. Trust me, that wouldn't go well. Or even this one hold your arm with that three pound weight in it, hold it out to the side, no problem, all right, I want you to hold it there for 20 minutes. It's going to be a real problem.
Jack Groppel:All right, I want you to hold it there for 20 minutes, it's going to be a real problem, it's going to start hurting. See, it's not the stressor, it was the fact that we didn't give that situation a moment of recovery. Now, if I built in recovery, if I said do one set of 10 every three or four minutes, you could probably do that almost nonstop. See, you see what I'm getting at? Sure, so without recovery, we break down. With recovery, we can go for a long time. So the idea that even I mean even a marathon, 26.2 miles, the greatest runners in the world, they know how to pace themselves, but they also know when there's a downhill, when there's an uphill, when they might draft another runner, they have little bites of recovery even though they're running a race. And these are world champion runners. They build mechanisms of recovery into their training and into their racing their training and into their racing.
Tim Barnes:I think I read somewhere or I heard someone say something that I think you have said the idea of you know, if you're sitting at your desk for hours after hours, after hours, if your job is that way and you never stand up, you never walk, you never do anything. That breaks down as well. Even just standing up brings some recovery right.
Jack Groppel:Yeah, we call it linearity, being linear in whatever you do. If you're linear, you will break down. We did a study in 2016. I can send you the link if you want your listeners to get access to it. But what we did it was a very controlled study by and we had it commissioned by the University of Denver Medical School, where it was three different groups, three different groups. One group had no activity whatsoever. They showed up at like eight in the morning. They stayed at their desk. They ate when they normally ate, but we controlled everything, but there was no movement whatsoever. The second group came in and as soon as they got there, they did 30 minutes on a treadmill walking on a treadmill, not breaking a sweat, but walking on a treadmill. Then they sat for the rest of the day. Then we had a third group that was the experimental group that we had doses of like five to 10 minute bouts of walking every like two and a half hours throughout the day. I mean the data show very, very clearly the intermittent movement there. I mean they data show very, very clearly the intermittent movement there. I mean they had more energy they had they were able to be more productive. Even their appetite, cravings went down. It was absolutely amazing. So we we were able to really, and we called it.
Jack Groppel:Then you need to build micro bursts of life into your life. So, whether that's movement, whether that's, you know, calling a child, you know it's funny if anybody that's ever had children imagine calling your child when your child was like three years old and the child picks up the phone and imagine this child goes hi and you go hi, bud, I'm having a really, really bad day and your three-year-old doesn't grasp that. That three-year-old does not care that you're having a bad day. But what do we do? Hey, how are you you doing? Okay, suddenly we totally change our body chemistry, we change everything about ourselves and I think those are the best word pictures that I can create when I get to those extreme levels, that when we build in intermittent bouts of recovery, we can go a long time and be very, very high performers.
Tim Barnes:One of the things that you talk a lot about, jack, is the idea of really leaning into our purpose leadership. I know it's a big big thing for you, yeah, how, why do you see that as so important, and what's the outcomes of really focusing in, identifying and focusing in on our purpose?
Jack Groppel:Yeah, historically, let's understand that when Jim and I were doing this, it was ourselves and Stephen Covey and that was about it, that was really talking about this. And we were doing this in the late 80s, early 90s and now to your point. Purpose is mainstream, everybody talks about it. We were shown the door, though in the late eighties it was very, very soft in corporate training and it took a real champion in the C-suite to really grasp what we were talking about. But why did we do it? Because, again, world-class athletes, if they're really, really good, there's a why to what they're doing. It's not about the money, it's a why Like I want to be my best, I want to be, I want to, I want to be, I want to get myself to this level we had.
Jack Groppel:We had the top athletes in the world, we had number five, number seven. Come to us and say in tennis and say I want to be number one, why You're making tons of money at number seven? I mean, are you serious? Why do you want to? And they go I just want to be the absolute best. And then and then world class Olympians will come to you and they'll say I've got to, I've got to break my own world record and I'm going what? And we're going because they don't get paid, they don't get their bonus money in their endorsements or anything unless they break the record or win the gold medal. So now we've got this situation where that's how we really got into the field. We had the best of the best coming to us and say I've got to get better. And at first you go wait what? And they go, yeah, you don't understand. And then when you get that, you say, ok, now how do I help you? It's not about your skill, it's not about, it's about your mental toughness, it's about how you find your best self when it matters. And that's what we learned and we did then. We worked with the FBI, the Navy SEALs. We did so much work with, you know, emergency medical teams. It was really incredible.
Jack Groppel:But I think, tim, can I just continue just for a moment? Because Can I just continue just for a moment? Because the historical perspective is key. I've been asked I did a program for Stanford about two years ago and I did it two years ago and last year because it was so well received two years ago and I proposed that. I think the next step beyond purpose now. This is really sensitive for a lot of listeners is agape love. I think agape the word love, is very frightening to people. They go love in the workplace not a chance, because then they suddenly start thinking sexual harassment. You know, because that's in English. We have one definition of love. Really it's erotic love or romantic love. No, I'm talking about agape love.
Jack Groppel:The Greeks had many different forms of love than the ancient Greek Agape is unconditional love for other people, and it's not about you don't have to be, it's not about being a friend. It's about showing unconditional love towards someone. And I truly believe that. If we understood why purpose? Because it helps you answer what matters most. It helps drive Purpose, provides the navigational coordinates on why you make decisions.
Jack Groppel:Nathan, you said that 15 years ago you couldn't open a jar. Well, you go. This isn't acceptable, so my purpose is not to do that. So now I'm going to get on that. Then you had to get into the four o'clock in the afternoon, but your purpose was no, this is not who I'm going to be. It's still my purpose. And you're better for the people around you. You're a better leader. So everybody has to find out what matters most. But then understand it doesn't just stop with that. It stops with how you look at other people. And, Tim, I know this is controversial, but if we were able to get this into our world today, we would be in a lot different place than where we are.
Tim Barnes:And it's interesting because the kind of work that so many of our listeners are involved in, we're trying to make a difference in our world, whether that's, you know, a local food pantry, or whether that's you know, whether that's a global. You know, Nathan leads an organization that's focused on on Haiti and medical issues in Haiti. I mean, so we're we're kind of built that way. I mean we want to do something beyond ourselves, right, but, but sometimes we have things like professional distance and some of those kind of things that come in that we we wrestle with. I mean, to get to get love and get really care. Fueling that is that's huge for us.
Jack Groppel:It is. It's, it's your, it's your underlying, foundational principle is agape love when you're in a not-for-profit. Because, for obvious reasons, I mean, and maybe it's the not-for-profit sector that starts changing the world. I mean, I've not really thought about that before now, but maybe it is because the idea of unconditional love toward another human being, you know, and this gets so. This is way beyond all the politics we deal with. I mean, there's so much hatred in the world right now. There's. No, we've lost the, we've lost the ability for healthy debate, we've lost the ability to have this conversation in many circles, and I think, if we can come from you know, a lot of people say well, we have nothing in common. No, that's not true. That's not true. We're humans. Let's start with we. I have nothing in common. No, that's not true. That's not true. We're humans. Let's start with we have to sleep and we have to eat. Let's start there. We are humans, we're here, we're on this planet. Together, we can start from, we can find common ground.
Tim Barnes:It's a matter, I mean, it's just a fascinating situation that I find I see we find ourselves in right now. So let's take it another step then, jack. What, practically, are you calling our leaders to do then? What are you saying, practically, this is how we should be approaching our leadership.
Jack Groppel:Well, I think you start with what matters most to me, what matters most to others. Understand, I mean, the whole idea of, of emotional intelligence. Let's even step back from that. You know, in in in school we learned to read, we learned to write, we learned to spell, we learned to type, because now it's all dependent on computers. We still are. We never learned to listen. We don't. We don't ever learn to listen. Think about that. Where did you ever learn to listen?
Jack Groppel:I mean, psychologists make millions every year on marriage, counseling, teaching, listening skills, active listening. I mean it's a very common thing. We don't really listen to what other people's needs are, where they are in life and how do we expect to lead if we can't listen. You know, it's like John Maxwell talks about this a lot in his most recent book. I used his book in my leadership class called Leader Shift, and he talks about are you a ladder climber? Because you want to climb the ladder, but are you also a ladder builder? And I think, if you start with for other people to climb their ladders and I think and I teach this a lot and I think it's it's fascinating when you, if you think about the fact of being a ladder builder instead of a ladder climber or a ladder demolisher. It changes the entire landscape of what you're talking about.
Tim Barnes:Wow, it's really, it's really insightful, it's really insightful.
Nathan Ruby:Jack, is there a connection between purpose? And I'm not exactly sure how to ask this, so you may have to put the pieces together for me. So if I'm leading an organization and I can bring agape love to work with me to my relationships, to my spouse, to my kids, that's a choice. I either am going to do that or I'm not going to do that, and I could do that every single day, and that's a choice we all have that we can make.
Nathan Ruby:Is there a connection between living our best lives and having a stronger purpose if the organization that we're leading is a better fit for us as opposed to? Because I think a lot of our, some maybe not a lot, but some of our executive directors are in organizations that, for some roundabout way, they ended up in the seat. They ended up in the executive director seat, and it may or may not be a great connection for them, but that's where they are. So can you maximize? Can you be the best leader? Can you live your best life in an organization that's not the right fit for you?
Jack Groppel:Yes, it's difficult, though, to be very honest. I mean, it's like the round peg in a square hole kind of an idea, and you have to be a little bit careful. I'm all about. You know, at Judson I did a presentation in the fall for the students that I believe doors open in your life, and are you going to be ready to walk through those doors when they open? The idea that we prepare ourselves for the next step is key, and I think listening is where it starts. So let's say, you're an executive director and it may not be the greatest fit in the world. Well, start listening. I mean, start listening to not only other people but your own heart. See, sometimes we just let our brain work and our brain's not our best friend. Our brain will circle the wagons until we rationalize, and our brain? That's why I'm so interested in this neuro literacy and neuroplasticity area, because we've got to start identifying what's counterproductive, because what our brain always does is circle the wagons and I'm stuck here. I'm stuck here. This is all I can do. Okay, is it? You know it's my question, is it? And then I, then I shut up, I let the person talk. Is it really your? Is it the?
Jack Groppel:The, the final end of the chapter. You know, here I am at my stage in life and I'm getting ready to start something new. My son is getting ready to go to college and he laughs at me. He goes Dad. You do realize. Most people your age are retiring. And I'm going dude, as long as God's got my brain active, I'm not retiring. By the way, do you know? In the original Hebrew the word retirement doesn't even exist.
Jack Groppel:There is no, there is no retirement in the Bible, and there is no vacation in the Bible, there is no retirement in the Bible and there is no vacation in the Bible. Those two words don't exist in the original Hebrew. Why? Because you didn't need a vacation. They were the normal routines and rhythms of life. Why not retirement? Because the elders were given different roles in the tribe.
Jack Groppel:So the idea that we have this is a westernized concept, that we need a break. Yeah, you do need a break, but so do it. I mean, think about how you maximize yourself and always be thinking about how you can grow. If you don't think you're in the right fit, number one ask yourself okay, is that my brain working? Maybe I am in the right fit, but my brain just doesn't like the day-to-day Change, the day-to-day. If you're the executive director, I mean, I'm serious, I push back pretty hard on this, and then again I go all the way to the other end of the continuum Okay, you're not in the right place. What does that look like? What's your dream?
Jack Groppel:You've got to really listen to your heart, and that's where change occurs. It's the spiritual dimension where change we did, we did say HBI, and in a very, very secular world. Change happens in the spiritual dimension of why we train, though, from the bottom up to your situation. Nathan, you had to train to open that jar. It hurt your heart that you couldn't open that jar. Yes, it did. It hurt your heart. Your brain may have gotten angry, but how many people have done things that their brain gets angry and they don't do anything? Change happens in the heart. So then you train, so you leave from the top down. We had a performance pyramid at HPI that I think they still use. I've obviously retired four years ago, but you change from the top down, the spiritual down. But you, I mean, I'm sorry, you change from the top down. You train from the bottom up, which begins with the physical, and that's really key. I hope that's helpful.
Tim Barnes:Very helpful, you know. I just I think that we are so, we're so geared to not take agency in some of our, some of our decisions, because we feel like, ok, we're in this, we're in this box, ok, I'm an executive director of an organization, all these things need to be done and I and I don't take the opportunity to say, no, I'm going to do things differently, the way I work during the day or whatever. I just appreciate what you're saying. You know, sometimes we just need to change, we need to make decisions, do things differently, rather than feel like I have all these expectations that I have to meet up to in some way.
Jack Groppel:You know we've become a society here. Let me start with a question which is easier? Is it easier to check off the box and get things done, or is it easier to be an innovative leader? It's much easier to check off the box, and that's who we've become as a society, as a culture We've become. We've become transactional in how we lead. So, check off the box, check off the box, check off. We've not become transformational. See, transactional is too easy. And then we get stuck. Oh, I didn't get this done, I didn't get this done. Oh, my gosh, I got my to-do list and by the end of the day, my to-do list is bigger. Yeah, be a transformational leader. Yeah, you might have things to do, but make sure you've got time to work on transformation.
Jack Groppel:Don't get stuck in the woulda, coulda, shoulda. Who do you want to be? What's the purpose around this? And start there. Start your day every day with why. What matters most, most today, is it getting things checked off the box, maybe for the morning, but maybe the afternoon is getting to, getting the group together and just connecting. And I'm not talking about getting around the fire and singing kumbaya. I'm talking about what matters to us. Why are we doing?
Tim Barnes:what we do? Probably two, two more questions, jack, and then we'll wrap up One of the things that just occurred to me as we were talking. You are standing in front of a new generation of young people. As you think about where they're headed and the leadership and impact in our world, what are the things that you're focused on as you stand before them?
Jack Groppel:Well, it's interesting. I'm a baby boomer and here I'm working with Gen Z and they're, by the way, mostly minorities, and I'm the old white guy. And I'm just going to be very open and transparent and I will tell you the one factor they love me and I love them, and I'm very close relationships with these people. Now, that means that love, though, is tough love, but I love them all. It's agape love. That's how I start every class. When I tell my students I love them, they know I really mean that it's not anything beyond unconditional love for them as a human being. But then, if they don't turn an assignment in it's not that Dr Grapple's this really nice pushover no, we're going to have a problem Because I love you. We're going to have a problem, and I think it all starts with the fact that it's love between. I'm four generations from them, I'm old enough to be their grandparent, and yet I'm close to them, and they're minorities. So now see, our culture doesn't make that whoa, that doesn't. No, no, that's not the way it's supposed to be. Yes, it is who says that's not the way it's supposed to be. Yes, it is who says that's not the way it's supposed to be. So I created that environment in my classrooms and every interaction I had.
Jack Groppel:One young man I'll never forget this Two years ago I've been at Judson almost four years and two years ago, sitting in my office having a great conversation, all of a sudden he goes why do you care about me? And I just paused. I said because I love you. And he's kind of started tearing up because we're not showing that to people. We're not showing that to people and it sort of angers me that we're not showing that to people. So, yeah, okay, you may not be me, that may be difficult. What I'm explaining for you, you don't have to be me. This has to work within your situation. I didn't tell Nathan that he was not strong enough to open a jar. He came to that of himself. He drove that himself. I'm just giving him the mechanism by which it happened, so nobody has to align.
Jack Groppel:I climbed Kilimanjaro four or five years ago with my I've got artificial knees. I climbed to Mount Kilimanjaro. My son was 12 years old. People will sit there and go well, I'm not you, yeah, but you've got mountains ahead of you. You've got huge mountains. They may not be like Kilimanjaro, but you've got proverbial mountains in front of you and you climb them the same way that I did with my son. You train for those mountains and you live for those mountains. Then you will be transformational in your leadership and not transactional.
Tim Barnes:That's really good. I'm ready to start climbing. Let's go. Oh man, well, jack, I appreciate your time. Do you any last words you want to leave with our, with our listeners?
Jack Groppel:Well, I think, start every day what matters most and also then, if you're a leader, what matters most for my people? How can I show them agape love? How can I? It's not about what can we get done today, that's transactional. Be a transformational leader. That would be my hope for every listener.
Tim Barnes:So if our listeners want to find out more about you and your resources, or connect with you, what's the best way to do that?
Jack Groppel:Probably connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I post quite a bit. I mean, when our podcast comes up, I'll repost it on LinkedIn. So if people want to follow me and what I'm doing because I am going to be up to some really cool things in this neuro literacy arena in the next few months so, yeah, follow me on LinkedIn. That's probably the best.
Nathan Ruby:Yeah, can you come back in the fall and talk about that and what you're?
Tim Barnes:doing For sure, for sure. That would be great.
Nathan Ruby:It'd be a pleasure Sounds good Well, thanks so much.
Tim Barnes:I appreciate it. We'll put your LinkedIn address in the show notes. Oh, great. Yeah, and thanks so much for joining us. It's been great.
Jack Groppel:Well, tim, I've always enjoyed our relationship and I appreciate. Nathan, it's nice to meet you and I appreciate everything. Sounds great, thanks for everything you guys are doing.
Nathan Ruby:Thank, you Well. Thank you for listening today. If you are benefiting from what is being shared on this podcast, we would like to ask you to share a review on the platform on which you are listening. Let us know how the podcast is benefiting you. If you would like to get in touch with us, our contact information can be found in the show notes. That's all for today. Until next time.