MajGen (Ret.) Kelly McKeague, the Director of the Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency speaks to the incredible work of recovery, remains, and identification that the DoD goes through to ensure no one is left behind.
MajGen (Ret.) Kelly McKeague, the Director of the Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency speaks to the incredible work of recovery, remains, and identification that the DoD goes through to ensure no one is left behind.
every set of remains that comes into through our doors hopefully will be associated with an individual, an American who made the ultimate sacrifice. And for a scientists, they connect with these remains because again, they are there to hopefully use their talent, their passion toward identifying, and more importantly providing answers to families.
Charlie Malone:Welcome to Season Two of the policy that's podcast engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of Policy Development for America's veterans. With your host, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David Shulkin. And the executive director of policy that's Lou Celli. Today's guest Kelly McKay, the director of the defense pow Mia accounting agency.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, when you were a VA, I mean, you had an opportunity to travel. I mean, all over the all over the country. Did you ever get a chance to to go to the defense pow Mia, accounting agency out in Honolulu?
Dr. David Shulkin:No, it's one of the things I never got a chance to do. I knew about the great work that they're doing with all verb commitment in Memorial affairs, but I never got a chance to see that.
Louis Celli:Yeah, many of the veteran service organizations do an annual tour with with their with their leadership that comes through every year. And one of the places where they stop as a defense pow Mia accounting agency, and they do that in conjunction with Pearl Harbor Day. It's a moving event, you know, Pearl Harbor Day, but then having that visit, it just it really brings home the importance of reproof, repatriating the, you know, the the heroes that they gave their lives in defense of this nation and seeing really the devastation of the ship that was bombed on the day that Pearl Harbor was attacked. It really is. It's just immense.
Dr. David Shulkin:I think one of the reasons I'm so glad we're gonna do this podcast today, Lou is because so many people don't realize the efforts that take place behind the scenes. The people who work in the DPA aren't well known by most Americans, they don't understand what they're doing every day. But this commitment to honor respect, never to forget, to continue to never give up on anybody, I think is what makes the American military and frankly, the culture or comfort of our country so strong. And so hearing about what these people do, and why they do it is is a really important story that needs to be told.
Louis Celli:And what's really fascinating as is as technology improves our ability, not just to do this faster and better. But to do this with such precision. So recently, and I think we may hear this from from our guests today. They went and recovered all of the remains from the graveyard that was established right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor called the called the Punchbowl, which is a huge mass graveyard, right there at Pearl Harbor. And it was it was all of the remains of the sailors and all of the bodies that they just couldn't identify. They had no way of telling who they were. And they and they buried them right there. And recently, with all of the advanced equipment that they have now they went through and they recovered all those and notified all those families.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think you're right. I think that I think that the technology has really helped the DPA do a much better job, especially since their origins and Vietnam and Korea. And when you get to understand how much better we are, and making sure that everybody's accounted for in our more recent conflicts, I think people will be both surprised and really pleased to hear about the current state of affairs.
Louis Celli:I know that a lot of our military history buffs will already know this. But we've had conflicts all over the world, Africa, Asia, and we've lost service members that, you know, we're going back even today and still recovering. And it's an important mission, and it's a mission that the United States has taken seriously and continues to take seriously.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, I'm looking forward to hearing from the director and I think people are going to be really interested to hear what he has to say.
Louis Celli:Yeah, and I think there are a few people more qualified to do this job. Kelly McKeague not only is the director of DPA and has been has been there since I think 2017. But his last military assignment spent 34 years in the Air Force he he retired as a major general. And his last two assignments were working at the DPA. So I think the agency is in good hands, and I can't wait to bring them in.
Dr. David Shulkin:Great. Let's get started.
Louis Celli:General McKee, welcome to the policy. That's podcast. Thanks so much for joining us today.
Kelly McKeague:Low it's a privilege for me to be part of policy vets podcasts. More portly, congratulations to you and Secretary Shulkin, for the tremendous success response that your podcast gets, again, it's an honor and a privilege. Well,
Dr. David Shulkin:thanks so much. And, you know, we're really delighted to have you on our podcast today that DPA has really done some amazing work over the past couple of years, we know that you've been the director since 2017. But we want to get your, your understanding your sort of description of what the DPA is and how it became a federal program in the first place.
Kelly McKeague:Mr. Secretary, it goes back to after the Vietnam War, where this nation recognize that there needed to be a commitment toward finding its POWs, and Mia s. And since then, it's expanded to the Korean War, the Cold War, as well as World War Two, which was added in 2010. And over the years, this commitment, national commitment performed by the Department of Defense has really been emblematic of the values that we as Americans share, that here we are decades later, still searching, still finding, and more importantly, still identifying missing Americans who made the supreme sacrifice. So our mission is bounded by World War Two, and Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Louis Celli:Kelly, you know, first of all, I've always wanted a chance to say thank you, I've been fortunate enough to have visited your facility out in Honolulu a couple of times. And, you know, without a doubt that part of our trip was always the most inspiring, the most impactful, your staff and particularly the researchers really embraced their mission, as do you. The intensity and enthusiasm really are always very, very high. Is it hard to keep that up?
Kelly McKeague:Lou, you're absolutely right. And I'm glad you saw that firsthand. There is no more purposeful mission, and as a result for the privileged, military and civilian personnel that are part of DPA. And they come from all different skill sets. We have scientists who are anthropologists and archaeologists. We have historians, we have analysts, Intel analysts, linguists, military EOD technicians, Navy Corpsman, all coming together in this very purposeful, very unique mission for the Department of Defense. I've never met more talented, more professional, more passionate individuals in my entire career than these men and women that work for DPA. And so absolutely is is not difficult to sustain, if not advance the intensity and the passion, the enthusiasm for this mission.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well tell us a little bit about these staff. They do sound like amazing people. How many people are they? Are they civilian? Are they active duty? Are they volunteers? How does it work?
Kelly McKeague:Mr. Secretary, there are actually 725 individuals that work at DPA spread across the globe to laboratories, one in Nebraska, one in Hawaii. About 55% are civilian 45% are military. The military come from the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps. We also have contractors that come from academia. These are scientists, these are historians that augment the work at DPA. And then when we're actually performing work in the field, we go out to your European Command into Pacific Command for what we call short term individual augment tees. And this is where there is a great opportunity for us to again reach out and augment the talent these are particularly high demand, low density career fields, like Explosive Ordnance Disposal divers, linguists, and they come from all six services. We even had our first space, Space Force individual that helped us on a particular mission in I believe Southeast Asia. And we've also had Coast Guard divers that have helped us on underwater missions in the South Pacific. We also have volunteers. These are individuals whether they be Former service members or even veterans and civilians who volunteer their time and talents to contribute to this mission.
Louis Celli:Well, DPA does a variety of things. And we're gonna get into that. But, you know, one of the things that I found fascinating while I was there is that, you know, in addition to your military mission, you also help law enforcement. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Kelly McKeague:Right, Lou, so as part of the defense support to civil authorities, whenever there's a, an entity, government entity that request assistance from the Department of Defense, we a DPA are no different. And the two that readily come to mind is after 911, we provided scientists who were anthropologists, as well as otologist, forensic dentist to assist the New York Police Department, as well as the New York City medical examiner in that noble work of searching for and finding the remains of those who were killed in that tragic in that tragedy. Later on, we assisted the government of Indonesia, when there was that tsunami, whereby, again, because of the tremendous loss of life, we were called upon to send scientists, again anthropologists and otologist to help the government of Indonesia, in that humanitarian response. We also have the capability, in fact agreements with the National Transportation Safety Board, that should there be a mass casualty accident, we again, would supply and provide the scientists to help in those recovery and identification efforts.
Dr. David Shulkin:That certainly that certainly makes a lot of sense. And it's terrific to know that those resources are shared and made available. I want to go back to you had mentioned in describing sort of the origins of the DPA about Vietnam. And of course, that probably still is an a, you know, time in history that most people think about prisoners of war and people missing an action. Are there still opportunities to do additional recoveries from Vietnam? And is it possible that there still could be here who are people that are being held there that we don't know about?
Kelly McKeague:Mr. Secretary, when it comes to the Vietnam War, it's the conflict that we've had the most research done, the most that we know about the historical archives that we have had access to. And it's because we've been working with Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia 10 years after the war ended, and those relationships have grown over time. Right now with Vietnam, we're working on our 36 year. And it's something where we normally have four Joint Field activities a year with Vietnam. We have five with Laos. In fact, cooperation on this mission by Vietnam predated the reestablishment of diplomatic relations between the United States and Vietnam by 10 years. And so again, we had have had the most experience most research accomplish in Vietnam. toward your question about current p are their current POWs, everything we have found everything we have seen everything we have research points to no credible evidence of POWs in Vietnam or even in Korea, because that question often comes up that are there still prisoners of war from the Korean War. And again, there has been no credible evidence lended leading us to believe that there are live POWs that we do know of both from the Korean War and Vietnam War of defectors deserters. And we do know that there are some of those and the services. were tracking and have been tracking those individuals.
Dr. David Shulkin:Now, you mentioned Vietnam and Laos. What about North Korea? Is there any cooperation to try to find these, the same type of, you know, missing in action? And would the North Koreans work with us?
Kelly McKeague:Secretary Shulkin This is probably the biggest disappointment, at least for us in DPA and affect the entire United States government. There are 46 countries that we work with that cover the entire globe. All of them readily cooperate with the United States. In fact, many of them look at this as a privilege to cooperate on the United States with the United States on this humanitarian effort. Regrettably, North Korea is the one outlier and It's vexing for us from the standpoint that of the 7500 Mia is from the Korean War 5700 are in North Korea. And regrettably, this is something that is affected by the vagaries of politics, geopolitics. And more importantly, the intransigence of the North Korean regime. In the early 1990s, North Korea actually turned over 208 boxes that they had recovered over the years. We are still identifying individuals from those 208 boxes, it ended up turning out to be over 600 different individuals, their DNA in those 208 boxes. But this went on for four years. And finally, we the United States government approached the North Koreans back in the mid 1990s, and asked, Can we cooperate can we work together on joint field activities, and they allowed us in fact, we worked with North Korea, the North Korean army for 10 years from 1996 to 2005. And in those 10 years, we found and identified a number of service members that were missing. Regrettably, that was the last field activity in North Korea that we have had. And so when President Trump and Chairman Kim met at the Singapore summit in 2018, we were highly encouraged by the fact that one of the four commitments made was the repatriation as well as the recovery of missing Americans from the Korean War. That resulted in 55 boxes, you may recall that North Korea turned over to United States, we have identified 82 of those individuals, we believe there are 250 separate DNA sequences in those 55 boxes, and of the 82. In addition to the 82 that we've identified, we all have also repatriated 80 remains to the South Koreans that we believe to be of South Korean origin. We were allowed by the United States government to engage directly with a North Korean army. We did so on two occasions, actually at the DMZ. And again, regrettably, the last communication we have had with North Korea was in March of 2019. We always looked at it as a humanitarian endeavor. They all regrettably, have looked at it as wanting, knowing that this was important to the United States wanting something in return, which our government rightfully was not willing to give.
Louis Celli:Let's talk a little bit about how you, in fact, identify remains. I mean, I've, again, I've been to your facility, I've seen how they lay everything out, and I was I was just amazed at some of the equipment, I'm going to get it wrong. It was like a gas spectrometer or something, just, you know, ways of identifying DNA. I know a lot of our listeners watch things like the Forensic Files and CSI and, you know, that type of cutting edge technologies. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Kelly McKeague:It's interesting you say that, Lou, because for us in DPA, we would welcome the opportunity to solve some of these cases as CSI analysts and scientists do in the 50 minute program. But regrettably, some of these cases take months if not years to resolve because the remains have been exposed to the elements. In some cases, they've been treated with formaldehyde for those unknowns that we are also privileged to be able to exude, and more importantly, try to identify. Our scientists are extremely talented. In fact, they're world renowned. They come from various lines of specialties. I mentioned anthropology, I mentioned archaeology. But we also have forensic dentist and we have material evidence specialists and these individuals work looking for seven lines of evidence. DNA is one that readily comes to mind. They utilize three sets of DNA, different DNA, and then we work hand in glove with our partners at the Armed Forces DNA identification laboratory at Dover Air Force Base. They're the ones who actually use cutting edge technology. And they are well world renowned, having patented several techniques and technologies over the years. But our scientists also use dental comparisons. They use chest X rays, your clavicle is as unique as a fingerprint. And if they have a clavicle that we have recovered, they can take a picture of that and compare it against the X ray The service member had when he first entered the service. And so these various seven lines of evidence all work together toward what we hope to be the identification of a missing service members service member. And because of that, we spare no expense in terms of advancing the technology. We also started using something called isotope testing, and analysis. And what this is, is what you eat and drink as a as a baby, or even as a young as a young adult, marks you for the rest of your life. And with the isotope analysis, if we were to take an isotope sample, compare it against what we call ice escapes, which are isotope maps, we can literally differentiate where you grew up. And whether that be the Midwest, the northeast, or even a foreign country. We can ascertain where you were growing up, in which case, this becomes not necessarily line of evidence, but it becomes a what we call an exclusionary point where we can exclude certain individuals, and then focus on the more expensive, more time consuming DNA testing.
Dr. David Shulkin:Do you think there's ever going to be a time that DPA can say that they have found or they know a reasonable explanation for everyone who's missing an action? Or do you think that this mission is one that just is going to continue forever?
Kelly McKeague:Mr. Secretary? Regrettably, the short answer is no. From the standpoint that our two biggest enemies are time and numbers time from the standpoint that 66 decades seven eight decades or have passed, and these remains again exposed to the elements are degrading in some cases dependent upon the soil conditions. But numbers is our biggest enemy. From the standpoint that of the 81,000 81,000 Emi as from World War Two through Operation Iraqi Freedom, we estimate 38,000 to be recoverable. What I mean by that is for those deepwater, and this when I say deepwater, beyond 1000, foot depth, ships, aircraft, submarines, those are we considered non recoverable because, again, we don't we lack the technology with which to be able to find, and more importantly, recover those remains. But the 38,000 is a daunting number, particularly from the standpoint that our capacity and capability currently allows us to identify around 200 a year. And you can see that at 200 a year trying to get to 38,000. It is a steep hill to climb. But one that we are not daunted. We are not deterred by one that allows us to again, still focus on the abilities and capabilities, we have to be able to bring answers long sought answers to families that have waited for decades. And so we don't see this mission ending as much as it is continuing from the standpoint of working to provide the fullest possible accounting to families and more importantly, their their loved one. And for us, this fullest possible accounting takes different forms. Obviously, the ultimate answer is the identification and repatriation of a set of remains to a family. But in some cases, our scientists are historians may reach a point where we've done everything humanly possible, and there is no evidence of that individual being at that particular site. In that case, that analytical determination is what reaches the fullest possible accounting, not the answer that they want. But one that they know that this government, this United States, our nation, did everything possible to try to find their loved one? Well,
Louis Celli:in order to do that, your team doesn't just go to, you know, to Laos and to Vietnam. You go all over the world, isn't that right?
Kelly McKeague:Absolutely. Lou, I mentioned earlier that we work with 46 countries, countries in Europe, countries in all over Asia, as well as the South Pacific, essentially wherever an American fell in combat pain, the ultimate sacrifice for his nation. And so, again, we sent teams to the sub Himalayan altitudes of India. We sent teams to the jungles of Vietnam, the beaches Have Tarawa in the island nation of cure Bosch, and even the battlefields of Europe. This very day, we have a team in Sicily, working at a BT 24 crash site. We have a team in Thailand. And we even have a team in the Northern Marianas US territory on an underwater mission. So again, these men and women deploy for 45 to 60 days, depending upon the complexity of the case. I mentioned earlier that we augment our teams with individual augment tees from all six services that contribute critical skill sets to help us execute an investigation or recovery.
Dr. David Shulkin:Do our allies and their governments have efforts that are similar to the DPA? Or is this unique American commitment?
Kelly McKeague:Mr. Secretary, it's almost unique. One would think that countries that we share western values would have a similar scope and magnitude of effort. But for countries like the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, theirs is a reactive posture, from the standpoint that they do have small elemental units, that should someone tell them that they found what they believe to be the remains of that particular country, then they will send this small element the nettle Netherlands is probably one that comes to mind from the standpoint of, of having very good capability. But again, in a more reactive posture. The Republic of Korea, South Korea comes close to the United States in terms of its commitment, its breath and depth of this mission for the South Koreans. They're still looking for 300,000 Missing South Koreans from the Korean War. They came to us back in 2001 asked us to help them set up a similar capability. We've done that. And it is really eye watering to see what the South Koreans have done is probably not probably it is our most robust joint partnership that we have with our South Korean counterparts. We conduct joint missions, investigations and recoveries, they have found Americans over the years we have found South Koreans, we've repatriated our war dead to each other. And then the other one that's interesting is Japan. Japan actually uses non governmental organizations and they scour the battlefields of the South Pacific, and Asia, Japan is still looking for 600,000 of its missing service members. And what's unique about Japan is until recently, if Japan found remains that they believe to be of Japanese origin, they would cremate the remains on site, and then take the ashes back to Japan. problematic for us from the standpoint that if there are Kollek colocated losses, we would not want the inadvertent destruction of American remains. So we have worked closely with the Japanese Government for 1015 15 years actually, and finally got a law changed. That now requires them their teams to have forensic reviews accomplished at the recovery site, before the remains are cremated, which is a huge change. But once again, that speaks to the noble intentions and mission that finding our respective war did has.
Dr. David Shulkin:I just wanted to ask you about some of these 46 countries. Obviously, many of our listeners are very interested in the more recent countries where we've had conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan in particular, are we able to have active efforts underway and both of those countries
Kelly McKeague:Secretary Shulkin This is actually a good news story from the standpoint that we over the years have improved what we termed to be personnel recovery. This is where we actually recover the fallen soldier, sailor, airman or marine after the battle. Now, the numbers drop precipitously from the standpoint that 72,000 missing from World War Two, Korea 7500 As I mentioned, Vietnam 1600 and it drops even further after that. For current conflicts, relatively current conflicts. There are only six individuals that are missing from Operation Iraqi Freedom. Few contractors as well as service members Here's what's I think this is absolutely phenomenal, Operation Enduring Freedom. In Afghanistan, when you consider 20 years of conflict, in far flung places in remote places, the number of missing inaction from Operation Enduring Freedom is zero. Not a single American is Mia, from the Afghanistan War, which is absolutely incredible. But again, it speaks to the service's commitment toward combat search and rescue, toward personnel recovery, to ensure that no matter what the cost, no matter what the circumstances, no American servicemembers lost in Afghanistan was left behind, I find that absolutely incredible. I want
Louis Celli:to take you back for a minute to to the North Korea and the 55 bucks as a remains, because that was a bit of a watershed moment at, you know, at the moment, at the time that they were transferred over to the United States. And And this speaks, I think, directly to the skill set of your team, being able to identify not only the fact of whether it's a human remain or not, but what region that the, you know, that the deceased lived in what their diet was, can and can you talk a little bit about what was actually in those boxes? And is there anything left still yet to discover?
Kelly McKeague:Right, Lou, so you know, as I mentioned, the 55 boxes was a watershed event, and one that we thought would reinvigorate our relationship with North Korea, but more importantly, re starting, our ability to recover remains inside North Korea. 55 boxes actually turned out to be the DNA of 250 individuals. There were no complete skeletons in the boxes, they consisted of individual bones, I think the the most that we had for an individual was for bones associated with that particular individual. But our scientists were and were able to sort through all the remains, and differentiate, again, through DNA testing, isotope analysis, the fact that they represented 250 separate individuals. As I mentioned earlier, we repatriated 80 of those remains to the South Koreans. But here's what's, what's fascinating about this work, is the fact that every single set of those remains and to date we have identified at to represent an American represent an American who made the supreme sacrifice, and also a family whose grieving were was exacerbated by years of uncertainty. There was only one, what we call material evidence that was associated, in other words, a personal effect that was associated with an individual and this happened to be a set of dog tags. Now the remains when our scientists actually flew into North Korea, on a C 17. To take possession of those 55 boxes. The North Koreans were actually did this very well, they actually had on each box where the remains were recovered from. And it This turned out to be when are historians compared? What the scientists determined to be a particularly individual that it was where the North Korean said that they recovered it from but I mentioned the the unique stories that every one of these missing Americans have. I remember the first identification made from those boxes. It turned out the master sergeant who actually was a veteran of World War Two, Master Sergeant Charles McDaniel, who was from Indiana. He had two sons, who were, I believe, two and five, when their dad went missing in North Korea. And he was a medic, Army medic, when we identify Charles McDaniel, and again, he was the first from the 55 boxes. The one material evidence that was related to him associated with him was his dog tags. And wouldn't you know, his oldest son was a army retired Army chaplain. And it was, it was so gratifying for us because here's this retired Army chaplain who told us, you know, for years he was the one counts, consoling families who lost loved ones in Iraq and Afghanistan. And now he was being consoled. Absolutely phenomenal when you think about the fact that this nation does what it does to the degree that it does, and does it so well.
Dr. David Shulkin:That is amazing. Thank you,
Louis Celli:we're getting ready to run out of time. Before we go, I think what's really important to share for our listeners who haven't had the honor of being able to visit your facility, is you walk through the hallways, you know, just the hallways where your scientists work and walk back and forth to the break room. And in and out of the building. Up on the wall, there are some posters, and they've got names and faces. And can you tell us a little bit about those?
Kelly McKeague:Sure. So you know, Louis, this is something that that seizes every single one of us from the standpoint that we know that every set of remains that comes into through our doors, hopefully will be associated with an individual, an American who made the ultimate sacrifice. And for scientists, they connect with these remains, because again, they are there to hopefully use their talent, their passion, toward identifying, and more importantly, providing answers to families. So they become close. And so you know, the poster you're referring to was one of from the battle of Tarawa. So we have an active project in Tarawa, where it was a bloody battle where the Marines lost hundreds of individuals, and there are still a number of them still missing. So our scientists put together a poster and on the poster is a picture wartime picture of every single missing marine or sailor from the battle of Tarawa. And when they're identified, that creates such a joy, such a relief, that they recognize that identification on this poster. One that comes to mind is one of the early identifications from from Tarawa was Lieutenant Alexander bondman, who was a recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor. Tenant Bonnie Minh was from Knoxville, Tennessee. He had a daughter, who was one year old when he went off to combat and was lost in the Battle of Tarawa. His daughter actually, is her name. She's named after her father Alexandra. And she actually came out to Hawaii, she actually lived on Maui. And so when these remains were brought back from Tarawa, there were 34 of them. And Lieutenant Bonnie man had very, very unique dental work, and so are scientists who recovered him knew who he was, but he wasn't formally identified. And so here are 34 transfer cases, all draped with the American flag. Laying in a hangar at Hickam Air Force Base in Honolulu. We knew who which of the 34 belong to Lieutenant Bonnie men. And so after the ceremony that the Marine Corps ran, we told Alexandra, this is your dad, at what a heart wrenching heart warming opportunity to see her she had a lay. And she placed the lay on her father's transfer case. Didn't remember her father because she was one year old. But again, it just speaks to how passionate how incredibly enthusiastic dedicated. Anyone associated with this mission can be an is because of stories like that.
Charlie Malone:General mcag I hope you don't mind the interruption. Charlie Malone here, I'm just in the background. I'm wondering as a retired naval officer about Davy Jones locker is that 1000 foot depth limit really insurmountable.
Kelly McKeague:Charlie, our limit right now because of technology is about 150 feet. And so any ship or any submarine or even aircraft beyond that is is outside of our reach. Now, having said that, we do have a case here coming up in the summer, in off the coast of Papa New Guinea, where we are actually diving because the Navy actually has a capability called saturation dive. And this capability allows them the divers to reach depths of 1000 feet, and more importantly, stay down below for hours and not have to worry about decompression. And so we're very excited about what this might do. And so it's a it's a bomber called heaven can wait. It is again 1000 feet depth, and one that we're hopeful that should this mission succeed. It surely opens up and expands our reach our capability and more important our opportunity to look for aircraft ships submarines at lower depths, you find it interesting that we actually are going to have to look at this with with the Navy because for the Navy, and you know this, they look at this as their final resting place. And so every time we come across a Navy vessel, whether it be a ship or submarine or aircraft, we always need permission from the Navy to do this. And so we had done this on a Corsair. That was an airman naval aviator who was part of President Bush's squadron that flew off the San Jacinto. And he, we actually found his remains. But again, that was about 125 feet. But the saturation dive mission that's coming up. We're very excited about it, because there are 11, airman, US Army Air Forces, airmen that are missing on heaven can wait, bomber. And so we're hopeful that they'll find something and more portly, open up the capabilities and opportunities.
Dr. David Shulkin:Kelly, it's really amazing the work that you're doing, and you talk about the motivation for this, but behind every person that you identify is a story. These are real people with people who care about them and love them. So can you tell us about anybody in particular, a certain example of where this work really was impactful to you,
Kelly McKeague:Mr. Secretary, you hit the nail on the head. Every one of these missing Americans has such a unique story. And those stories are passed down from generation to generation. I mentioned earlier about the story of Master Sergeant McDaniel, and how his two sons received the ultimate answer from their father going missing when they're young boys. Another one that comes to mind and there are literally hundreds, but one that comes to mind is a story of Captain Lawrence Dixon, who was a Tuskegee Airman, and a member of the famed unit that fought in World War Two. He was a p 38. Mustang pilot. He was from the Bronx, New York when he went off to combat. He was on his second to the last mission. Before he was completing his tour of combat, to come back to the United States and crashed and was missing for many years. Due to the help of some local historians who got together with our historians, we were able to pinpoint the site turned out to be a crash site near the Austrian Italian border. And so we have partner private partnerships. In fact, we have 115 of them with universities and non governmental organizations throughout the world. We worked with the University of New Orleans with the University of Innsbruck on a field school, an actual excavation using graduate students of anthropology. And wouldn't you know, not only do they find remains, but they find his wedding ring, and they find his harmonica. He was an accomplished jazz musician, and obviously could not take his his trumpet into the P 38. Mustang. But he had a harmonica. And so his daughter Marlo was two years old when her dead, went off to combat and did not come home. Marla now is a mother has four children of her own adult children. I just distinctly remember being at the funeral at Arlington National Cemetery for this Tuskegee Airmen, the first of 27 that we recovered and identified and Marla wouldn't you know, had her dad's wedding ring around her neck on a necklace. Absolutely motional absolutely gratifying and more importantly, joyful for the Dixon Andrews family. But more importantly for the Army, Air Corps, Tuskegee Airmen and the nation. But again, just one example of hundreds
Louis Celli:general monkey I can't thank you enough for being here. This. This is really an important episode. I think our listeners are going to be be very riveted to to listening about the mission of the DPA. Thank you so much for being here that that's about all the time that we have for today. Is there anything that we may have missed that you'd like to say before we leave
Kelly McKeague:low Secretary Shulkin thank you again for the opportunity to be a part of your podcasts. What you're doing for veterans and keeping them apprised informed is extraordinary. And it's also a gratifying for us and DPA that you took the time and more portly allowed us to talk about this mission. I would just say one thing that This national commitment is one that speaks to America's values. It's one that is symbolized by as you know, the iconic black and white pow Mia flag, which flies with the words you are not forgotten, and that you are not forgotten is exactly why this nation through this department of defense does what it does every single day to ensure that families are provided answers, but more importantly, that our service members who are missing are afforded that opportunity to be found, and more portly, to return home. Thank you again to both of you.
Louis Celli:Great, thank you. Goodbye. And that is it. That's all the time that we have for this week. Join us next week. We've got a really interesting episode with Judge Haley Weinstein. She's a circuit Short Circuit Judge out of Baltimore who started a veteran's treatment court. You're going to want to hear her journey, how she got there, and what's happening now. We'll see you next week.
Charlie Malone:Thanks for listening to the policy bits podcasts. For more information about projects and other podcasts. Go to policy. That's dot org.