Dr. David Shulkin and Lou Celli speak with Ms. Danica Thomas, who shares her story about her husband Army Staff Sergeant Allen Thomas; how they met, what happened to SSG Thomas in Afghanistan; and the tragic afternoon he left the VA and murdered two people he had never met thinking they were enemy combatants before taking his own life.
Dr. David Shulkin and Lou Celli speak with Ms. Danica Thomas, who shares her story about her husband Army Staff Sergeant Allen Thomas; how they met, what happened to SSG Thomas in Afghanistan; and the tragic afternoon he left the VA and murdered two people he had never met thinking they were enemy combatants before taking his own life.
So I absolutely believe that he thought that he was at war and he thought he was clearing a home and the fact that he wouldn't even turn around and look at me. He wouldn't even acknowledge me. Yeah, I certainly don't believe that he was in his right mind and that moment caused so much pain for other people, more pain than I could ever carry, because at least I could try to understand the why. And these innocent lives that were taken that day, their families have to sit. Without the wise they have to sit with Alan Thomas the murderer.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy vets podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your hosts, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion Louis Celli. Today's guest, Danica Thomas at the Susan Tillis Foundation, Danica is a longtime ambassador of the independence fund and a goldstar wife.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, when you were at VA, did you keep track of the numbers of veterans who died by suicide?
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah Lou, I don't think anything impacted me as much. And knowing that when I first got to VA was 22 veterans a day and then it eventually got to where it is now. 20 veterans a day, I would often take out my calculator right in the middle of a meeting with other VA leaders. And when we would talk about this issue, and it would take weeks, before people would want to get back to me, I would sit there and very visibly, punch into my calculator. Well, that's 20 people, times, 14 days. And that means we're going to have another 280 people who have taken their lives. And I would use the absolute horror of this amount of people taking their lives as a real push for us at VA to just be relentless about finding ways to help. So this, as you know, was my single top clinical priority when I was at VA.
Louis Celli:Yeah, you know, and each one, each veteran who takes their own life, they have a story to tell. I mean, each one is either a daughter or a son, a father, mother, sister, brother, a friend, a co worker colleague, and you know, we lose one just about every hour of every day.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think we're going to hear that in our podcast. Today, we're going to hear the real story about how each one of these people held affects the lives of so many others. And that impact doesn't stop once a veteran takes their own life it is with the family for the rest of their lives. And so this is a really important issue that we're talking about today.
Louis Celli:Yeah, and I think that the numbers aren't even accurately reflected. I mean, we don't count will VA only counts the number of suicides that are recorded by the coroner, as suicides, but there are veterans who, who overdose or pre plan auto accidents or some other intentional act. And I can tell you, I had the terrible duty of helping a family clean the suicide scene where a veteran killed himself with a shotgun. It was it was horrible. And, you know, it's not it's not necessary to go into the details. But the reason I bring it up is because the commander of the time will did an accident. Right. I asked him why. And he explained that his argument was that the veteran wasn't sure whether or not they wanted to go through with it. But at the very last minute, accidentally put too much pressure on the trigger. And if he had ruled it a suicide, his wife wouldn't be eligible for the soldiers life insurance.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, there's no doubt that this is under reported under counted issue. This is this is really at the, you know, epidemic level of a public health emergency. And of course, we know that with veterans. This is happening at much greater rates than in the civilian population. You know, I remember my most difficult conversations were with family members and people like Danica that we're going to hear from, but I remember when I first got to VA, I got a call from summers family who lived in San Diego who asked if they could come to Washington to meet me. And when they came into my office, they handed me their son Daniels letter that he left for them right before he took his life. And they asked me to read it. And I've kept a copy of that letter with me at all times. Because it really reminds me of how great a tragedy, this issue of veteran suicide is, and the impact on the families as they go forth. And they feel the guilt of what they could have done. And there's so much to learn from each one of these stories.
Louis Celli:Well, Mr. secretary you mentioned, you know, today we have one of the most important, captivating and resilient guests we've had on this podcast so far. She's She's a mother. She's a goldstar widow. She's a survivor. And she's actually integral part of the policy. That's family.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, that's right. Danica is our social media manager. She not only does this for policy bats, but she works with other amazing veterans organizations. She's Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Susan Tillis foundation. She is a longtime ambassador for the independence fund. In fact, you and I were with her not too long ago, just a just a few weeks ago in Washington, when we watched her stand up to address the president of Afghanistan as a goldstar mother, and watched as she held her hand over her heart and talked about the sacrifice that she and her family gave to make Afghanistan a better place. And to make it a place that, you know, that people in Afghanistan could be free like we are in America. And of course, her husband, Allen ultimately gave his life because of what happened in Afghanistan. And she's just truly an amazing person.
Louis Celli:Danica is a truly amazing caregiver, an advocate and a survivor, who's dedicated to being there for servicemembers and their families in need. Now, while working every day to prevent the tragedy that she lived through.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think also, her story is really important to those that are working to make the VA system stronger and better every day, her husband, Allen, sought help at the VA, they turned him away, because they were too full. And then, as you're gonna hear, by the time that they reached out, to tell them that they had room, it was too late. And you know, that's the reason why I felt strongly and I worked very hard to implement same day care at the VA, if you show up today, like Alan did, back when he needed the help, you're not going to be turned away, that just can't happen. And there are too many terrible stories out there where we as a country failed, those that needed our help. And so this is a really important story. It's gonna be emotional for people to hear low, it was hard to sit through. And we've heard Danica story before. But it's important that people listen to this.
Louis Celli:That's right, Mr. Secretary, well, you know, let's get her in here and get started. We really have a lot to cover. Danica, welcome to the other side. So you're usually on the administrative side of the podcast business, making sure that our listeners know when new episodes publish and, and putting it out on social media. So welcome.
Danica Thomas:Thank you so much for having me. I feel very honored to be here with you guys today and on this side, and be able to talk and have a real conversation about some not so pretty things, share the story of my life, my husband's life, and how me and my daughters have moved forward after his death
Dr. David Shulkin:Danica I also want to thank you for all your hard work. It's really behind the scenes, but without you and the rest of our volunteer team had policy bets. There's no way to Lou and I could do the work that we're doing. And so I always say when you need something done, ask a busy person to do it. And I can tell how busy you are juggling so much.
Danica Thomas:I am but it is something that means a lot to me. Like I said, I'm honored to work alongside of both of you and I want to be a part of change and a part of movement and I want to be a part of making our veterans feel like they are completely supported. And so I'm happy to be on this side. But I'm also just truly grateful for the opportunity to Work with policy bats.
Louis Celli:So, Danica, you've already told your story publicly or else we never would have asked you to share it here. So since you've already shared that, can you tell our listeners a little bit about Alan?
Danica Thomas:Absolutely, um, Alan and I met right before his third combat deployment to Afghanistan and I was completely smitten by him. He was six for 260 pounds, this big man, I called him my barrel chested freedom fighter. And he had a loud personality, he was cocky and confident and often said he was the smartest person in every room. And he had goals and dreams. He loved his country. He loved the mission. He loved his brothers. And he just, he always had this leadership mindset. And I never wanted to be in the way of it. And I certainly understood that his his heart and his head was in his mission. And he just he could light up a room, he could walk into a room and smile, and the entire room would light up. He just, he was a very positive happy person. And, and yeah, I just instantly we had a connection, fell in love and the rest was history.
Dr. David Shulkin:Danica, tell us a little bit about what happened to him when he was serving. And tell us about what that was like when he came home. And he was injured the way he was.
Danica Thomas:He went to Afghanistan in 2009. And as soon as I got over there, we didn't hear a lot of communication. I certainly did not like I said his head was always in the mission and December 2009, the guy who introduced Alan and I was actually killed out on a patrol. Alan was his squad leader. And he came home shortly after that. Allen came home shortly after that and had r&r and we kind of got to see each other love on each other and, and unpack the struggles of his his guy getting killed in front of them. And so from then it was kind of like, I thought that was his one time to be taken out. And that's that's certainly not the reality of what happened. In March of 2010. I was pregnant with our first daughter and Alan was on a patrol in Afghanistan, and as soon as a bomber came out of the wood line, and as soon as he dropped to his knees, he detonated his suicide vest was packed full of quarter inch ball bearings that went through my husband's chest. The Brunt was so strong that it went all the way through his chest left third degree burns down his back. It blew him away. So he ended up hitting his head had a traumatic brain injury. It took out both of his lungs. One of them collapsed and the other one mostly had to be removed. He had cracked ribs and pneumonia and he actually flatlined I was told they did several needle decompressions. up he was put on the bird he flatline they stabilized him. And he underwent emergency surgery and was sent to Walter Reed and DC which was actually in his backyard. He grew up in that area. His parents lived a couple of miles from Walter Reed. And so days after the suicide bomber blew up, blew up his life, his career and ultimately, our family. We welcomed him into Walter Reed.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Danica, you know, this is what we hear over and over again that when somebody goes off to serve, it's really the whole family. So how long have you been married? And what happened to your relationship now that he's in Walter Reed? And how long? How long was he there before he came home?
Danica Thomas:There were a lot of ups and downs. I welcomed home somebody who was completely different than I sent away. And I don't think anybody could write a handbook for what what they bring home with them. I sent him off and I thought dead or alive. I I never imagined that I would receive him injured and let alone the injuries that he sustained. He was a different person. And it was very, very tough to navigate. I I didn't know what each day would bring. And I was young and pregnant and I had no clue how to be the person that he needed me to be. But I tried and and we toughed it out. We were at Walter Reed for several months, a little over six and then we transition down to the Warrior Transition battalion at Fort Bragg. He was told he would have to medically retire he wasn't a Want to go back to the fight back to the mission back to his brothers, and it absolutely crushed him. When I say that that suicide bomber destroyed every hope he had left in him, I mean that to the core. I lost him that day in Afghanistan. And as much as I thought that there were going to be better days. They were few and far between. And there were times where I saw glimpses of him again. But he, he, he lost a lot that day. And so did so did me and my family,
Louis Celli:Danica, Can you share with our listeners the last two or three days of balanced life?
Unknown:Yeah, I can. The last few months leading up to his death, he had a lot of concerning behaviors. He was off things were things were odd. And I made at the time we were living in in Virginia, seeing we were going to the Richmond VA, and I made the decision to move back to Fayetteville and and try to get the care there in Fayetteville knowing that there are a lot of veterans and, and he would be wrapped around and taken care of. And so we we sought help when he needed it. But he was also going to a counselor outside of the VA through TRICARE. And so when when I would see these behaviors that were concerning, of course, I, you know, called his counselor right away, made him call, sat down with him calmed him down. He had a lot of panic attacks, he had a lot of brain, things going on. He had migraines often and it would mess with him. And he had anxiety. And so the last few months before he died or difficult for our family. We tried to navigate it the best that we could. But it was a struggle. And the day that he died. I look back and I think I don't I don't know how, but he was so calm and and it was like we had a great day. And we we went on like a lunch date with his best friend. And we laughed and we told jokes and things were so good. And in fact, right before he left our home, we were actually getting ready to go out on a date together. And my my husband told me, he loved me, he gave me a kiss and he walked out of the room. And moments later I heard him pick up a gun and leave our home. And he ended up running and I ran after him and I called after him and I screamed, and he wouldn't even turn around and look at me. He wouldn't even acknowledge that I was standing there. It's like he wasn't there. It's like he he had no clue of his surroundings. And he ended up leaving our home and he had what clinicians later described as a psychotic break and he cleared the home of random neighbors in our neighborhood in our residential neighborhood. And like he like he would have in Afghanistan. And he ended up taking the lives of two random neighbors and their dog and then ran down the road and turn the gun on himself and and killed himself. That's and that certainly wasn't who my husband was. He came home My hero and he died a villain
Louis Celli:Danica when when you shared the story with me before how, you know help us understand what what you believed that Alan was thinking at the time he was going basically door to door.
Danica Thomas:I believe that my husband thought he was in in war. After I sat down and and talked to detective the first the first police officer that approached me, asked me what happened. And I told him everything that I had heard because when I say every last gunshot that went off, I heard them, down to the last one. I described it all to the police officer and He basically looked at me and he said, Do you think your husband had a flashback? And I said, Yes, I absolutely do. Because my husband was not, not somebody like that he would give you the shirt off his back. He, he mentored children, and then in the neighborhood because he wanted them to have a figure in their lives, that that could serve the community. And so I absolutely believe that he thought that he was at war, and he thought he was clearing a home and the fact that he wouldn't even turn around and look at me. He wouldn't even acknowledge me. Yeah, I I certainly don't believe that he was in his right mind. And that moment, caused so much pain for other people, more pain than I could ever carry, because at least I could try to understand the why. And these innocent lives that were taken that day, their families have to sit without the wise they have to sit with Alan Thomas, the murderer,
Dr. David Shulkin:Danica, we can all hear the pain that this is causing and recalling all this. And so your strength in your bravery in sharing this with all of us, in the hopes that other people are helped is really remarkable. You had talked about that. You you and he were seeking help at the VA. Can you tell us a little bit about what that experience was like and what you learned and what others can learn about doing better when people come home and they seek help from the VA?
Danica Thomas:Absolutely. When Alan was experiencing panic and anxiety and some of his odd behavior, we promised each other that if that was gonna, you know, if it happened, we would seek help and and he was doing outside counseling, but also, I took him and drove him to the Fayetteville emergency room. And they wouldn't allow me to go in with him because I had our six month old with us. And he called me two hours later and said, I'm ready to be picked up, they gave me a prescription. When I dropped him off that day, I was prepared to not receive him back, I was prepared for him to have to stay and do impatient, and that they would keep him and evaluate him. And when I picked him up, I thought well, they know what they're doing. They evaluated him and they're sending him home. But the reality of the situation was they didn't have enough space available for him. They didn't have the resources there for him to get the help that they needed. So they sent him on his way. And they said that they would call us with an appointment for him. And by the time they called us we had buried him.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, Danica, I, I truly do believe by you talking about this and telling people your story that you are helping other people making this a story that isn't repeated. So when when you left the VA emergency room that night after you picked him up, when was the next time that you heard from anybody at the VA?
Danica Thomas:I think it was like about two months later they had called and said that he had come up for a PCM appointment. And I mean, if you could understand the anger that I had, knowing that two innocent lives were taken while he was waiting for a PCM appointment or an appointment for mental health that that they're counting casualties of the war that my husband brought home, waiting for him to get help. It was disappointing. It was upsetting. There's no I mean I have no I was so angry. I was I was I was just beside myself.
Louis Celli:Danica, you talked about you talked about your little let's talk about your your girls for a minute. Tell us a little bit about your your two girls.
Danica Thomas:Well, I have a 10 and an eight year old, two daughters. They are the absolute world to me. They are spitting images of their dad. They're smart, kind resilient. They are headstrong Sometimes to their my, you know, doesn't work in my benefit. But they're just there, they have every good quality that he and I both have motion to two little tiny people, Lily was almost three when he died. And Mila was six months old on the day we buried him. And I have done my absolute best to raise them to be strong and independent, and know that they can come out of this, something really bad could happen to us, but we are strong enough. And as a team, we can come out of it. And you know, I share the ugliest parts of my life, in hopes to just say one life. And sometimes I think about it and I I hope and pray that my children never have to feel the heartbreak and and hurt that I do. But even if talking about it and sharing the story and talking it through with them saved their life or my life, then then we've we've done our job, I think having an open conversation about things is important and sharing with them that there there can be two parts of their dad there can be the hero that came home, catastrophic, Lee injured, fighting for his country. And then there can be the other side of him. That's not so pretty. But every day I think putting one foot forward and being able to move in a positive manner to make sure that it the what happened to those two innocent people and their dog never happens again. My 10 year old gave me probably the most chilling, she said something to me that I will take with me forever. And I think about every single day. She said to me, you know, what daddy did is not my burden to carry. And it is such a powerful statement because she recognizes that. What he did, doesn't define who she is. But it helps me because I often carry this this burden, I shoulder, I shoulder the brunt of what my husband did. And as much as I tried to turn it into how we're going to save other people and help other people. It's a lot, it's a lot to think about. It's a lot to carry. But I just I just feel like I could have, I could have done something different. And I would have been able to save those people.
Dr. David Shulkin:You know, Danica, I'm sure people listening to this are just visibly are really upset and hearing. This story is just incredible. Many people probably have never interacted with a goldstar widow like yourself, when people meet you and they hear your story. What What message do you give to people? And what can they say to you that makes you feel heard and comforted? And how can people who are just listening help.
Danica Thomas:I just want I want to share the message that you can absolutely be bigger than the situation that you were given. You know, my knock at the door came in a different form. It came in the form of a detective identifying my husband's body after he did something really horrific and I have tried to get out of bed every single day look myself in the mirror and say you are bigger than this. You're bigger than the situation that you were given you were you're bigger than then than the burden that you carry. So with that being said, I tried to do everything in my power to help veterans and work in the community and talk about mental health and talk about suicide prevention and talk about that empowering ourselves and having the confidence to move forward out of really really tough situations. I would just say to anybody, you we all have it within ourselves to to do a deep dive and and find that empowering feeling to be bigger and move forward and just kind of get yourself out of that that funk.
Louis Celli:I want to take you back just for a minute to the part where it sounded to me like you felt responsible for this is, is that what you carry?
Dr. David Shulkin:It is, in some ways, I feel like I could have done more if I would have you know, rioted in a VA emergency room if I would have stayed and and begged and pleaded for him to get help. If I if I would have just done one thing different maybe, maybe I could have saved those lives. I know that ultimately, there was nothing that could have been done. But I would give anything to be able to make this right. I don't, I don't want to sound like I would ever want my husband God. But some days I just wish it would have been him. Just him. Like why did two innocent people have to die? And their dog? Oh. So yeah, it's something that I do carry. It's something that I still struggle with. But I the work that I try to put into making it right i think helps me greatly. You know, what I often like talk about saving other people's lives. But like being able to work on this kind of stuff has helped me tremendously find myself and find my bark and find my way through navigating this really ugly, ugly situation.
Louis Celli:You had, you had said to me when we first started working together months ago, that you you feel a sense of responsibility to kind of make up for what happened. And you know, through your volunteer work, being an ambassador for the independence fund working for Susan Tillis foundation? Do you feel like you're there?
Danica Thomas:I do, I feel like every step forward and in trying to help improve the life of somebody else helps me take that off of my shoulders. I've said before, like I wish I would have reached out to his brothers. And that is, you know, being able to be at a program like operation resiliency through the independence fun helps me watch the bond of brotherhood that I knew my husband had with other people. And, you know, maybe I maybe I could have called and done something different and shared what was happening within our household with one of his brothers, maybe that would have changed. You know, and working for the Susan Tillis foundation and being able to impact families like mine, when my husband was serving it, it helps me pour myself into something that is greater than me. And it just empowers me, and it helps me carry the burden of what my husband did. Because I am able to help other people, I've always said, If I can just save one life, then I've done my job. You know, it's something that means a lot to me, and I want to continue doing it. And I want to show my children that they can put themselves into something else that's bigger than them and impact other people. And I just I don't ever want to happen, what, what happened with, with my husband and the innocent victims, to have an ever ever again. The person that I am today is somebody who Alan always wanted me to be he and I talked about earlier, he always had these big goals and dreams. And he would often say to me, what do you want to do? What are we you know, now that I'm out? What do you want to do? And I would say, Well, I'm a mom, I'm a caregiver. I'm a wife. I couldn't see past the end of my nose. I thought those were my three things. Those were my claim to fame. And his death rocked me in ways that I could never even describe. But they also motivated me to be the person that he wanted me to be and it wasn't he wasn't trying to mold me he was trying to motivate me and he always just wanted me to have a vision of life and and something to work towards that was more than just my family and so the person I have turned into through his his death. And the tragedy of this this family is, is somebody who is all of those things that that he always saw for me, and it has, you know, I'm proud of who I am today. But even more, so I'm, I'm thankful and grateful for all of the people that I have met Pope, you know, after his death, that have inspired me to be this person who can help who is strong enough to be there for other families who, who's strong enough to look a veteran in the eye and say, we're gonna get you help. And who's strong enough to look at two little girls who never asked for this life, but live it every day. And it's my job to make sure that they live it to their fullest and that they are happy. And that they never have to carry the burden of what their dad did. So I really just have happy with who I am. Even though all of this all of this really, really crummy stuff has happened?
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, Danica, let, let's stay on that for a second and think you know about your work in making this a better place. And you've seen the system and its failures, the gaps in the system firsthand. And you and your daughters are living that. When you think about where we are today, with a lot of progress behind us and both the VA improving its access to mental health in the legislation that's gone through in recent years. Are there things that you want to see still happen? Are there new legislative efforts that you think are still needed? Does the VA still have more work to be done? Well,
Danica Thomas:I think nobody's perfect. And We have certainly fought hard to make changes within the VA system. And we have made changes and I'm, I'm grateful for those changes. I say, you know, back in 2010, when when our servicemembers were coming home, severely injured, it was a lot, you know, Bravo Company to 508, we kind of joked that we had our own wing at Walter Reed, because every Friday, there was a new guy brought in and I don't think anybody was prepared for what was coming home, you know, back then, and then fast forward to 2013, where there were weightless and not no availability for our veterans to be seen. And then, you know, you jump forward to now, and there's a lot of changes that have been made, and we're still working on more changes. And I think it's, it's wonderful, I think we don't stop, we have to keep going. And, you know, when we look back, we think about, you know, who's dying by suicide and why. So I think there's a lot that we still need to unpack, you know, with, with our combat veterans, with, with the VA numbers of combat veterans that are dying by suicide, and kind of continue to unpack all of that baggage and just work forward to make the VA system better. Like I said, nothing's perfect. It's not, it's not going to be perfect, but we can't stop we have to continue to be that driving force be the voice for our veterans. And like, both of you do, you know, working in the community, you're incredible leaders in this community. And, you know, with all of us being able to work together, it's it's incredibly impactful. But I have no doubt that with all of the powerhouses that we all work around that that we can continue to make the VA system better and our community, our veteran community incredible.
Louis Celli:Okay. The first thing I want to do is thank you for sharing your story here today. It wasn't easy for you, it's not going to be easy for our listeners. And this is this is the time and the part of the podcast that I get the most criticism over because we are about out of time. And what I want to do is, is give you the last word, I just want to know if there's anything that we didn't get a chance to cover. Is there anything that you want people to know before we sign off?
Danica Thomas:I just I'm gonna go back to what I said about people having the ability to wake up every day and just say like, I'm bigger than the situation I've been given whether it's a Gold Star family member, a veteran who's struggling, you know, children in the veteran community. Nobody knows what Exactly they're signing up for, there's no handbook for how to navigate all of this. But there are people that care, there are people that work every day 20 473 65 I know them, you guys know them. We are here. And we are here to make our veteran community a better place and be helpful and impactful and resources and advocates. And so I really just want to, you know, bold and highlight that there are resources, please, please, please use them. It's incredibly helpful when you can finally open up and express that you need help or need somebody to talk to and you never ever know who you can impact by opening up and talking to one person about how you're feeling. And, you know, with with that, I think that we can continue to see open conversations and dialogues within our community suicide prevention, and whatever it may be. So I just, I thank you guys so much for having me on. On this side. It's, I've, I just feel so grateful. And I could never express how much your support means to me. I just really thank you for always having my back and being able to work with you guys and having me on and having a conversation that for a long time a lot of people didn't want to have. But here we are. And and it, it means something. So thank you guys.
Dr. David Shulkin:Danica, thank you so much. We greatly appreciate you spending the time with us. We want people to know that if they need help. There are people out there to help them. The VA Crisis Line phone number is 1-800-273-8255. That's 1-800-273-8255. And that's 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
Louis Celli:If you even think that you might need to call that number then you need to call the number. So as the Secretary said it's 1-800-273-8255. Well, that was by far, one of the most powerful podcasts we've ever had. You're going to want to join us next week when we cover a very difficult subject racism in the military. Our guests are going to be naval officer and author Keith green, and Command Sergeant Major.
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