Join Dr. Shulkin and Lou Celli as they speak to Reuben Keith Green and Gloria Dent. Keith is the author of "Black Officer, White Navy", and Gloria is a small business owner. Both had long careers in the military and have a perspective on race in the military that is especially important considering recent events.
Join Dr. Shulkin and Lou Celli as they speak to Reuben Keith Green and Gloria Dent. Keith is the author of "Black Officer, White Navy", and Gloria is a small business owner. Both had long careers in the military and have a perspective on race in the military that is especially important considering recent events.
my platoon sergeant came into my room in the middle of the night. And of course the minister tried to sell me sexually have sex with me. And so what I, the next one, and when I went to report it, my first surgeon, you know, he was white at the time. He explained to me that, you know, I was already borderline causing a lot of problems in the organization, because if I brought this forward, then you know, it would only show that I really wasn't fit for the military.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy bets podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your hosts, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion Louis Celli. Today's guest, Reuben Keith green, for retired naval officer and author and glory adept, a retired Command Sergeant Major and CEO of a woman owned small business.
Dr. David Shulkin:Lu, today we're going to talk about something really important. And I know it's going to make some people uncomfortable when we talk about it. I'm talking about racism. And the reason we're talking about it today is because the way we handle it, it's going to have big implications for our country and for national security.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, I'm really glad that we're that we're doing this, although I gotta tell you, admittedly, I'm feeling a little sheepish, you know, I mean, it's, we're two white guys talking about racist behavior. let's admit it. While I'm sure that that whites have been the victims of racism, the vast, overwhelming majority of racism happens to non whites here in America.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Balu. It's been quite a year, I think the events around the death of George Floyd really got many people thinking about racism in a whole new way. And so much has happened since then we've seen a dramatic rise in racism. And we've seen the attacks on Asian Americans, we've seen the rise of anti semitism. It's just been quite a year of an awakening.
Louis Celli:Really, really good point. And in the grotesque public displays of hate, only seem to be getting worse lately. I mean, so that's a physician who's run major hospital networks, as well as the VA, were you able to identify trends of racism in the practice of medicine, yellow,
Dr. David Shulkin:I've always served in communities that have been underrepresented and have really lacked the adequate health care facilities. And when you work in those areas, you're aware of the racial and the socio economic disparities, just for simple access to care. In fact, in medicine, the single strongest predictor of your health outcome is your zip code. In other words, where you live makes the biggest difference in how long you're gonna live and how healthy you're going to be.
Louis Celli:So I grew up in Austin. It's one of the annexes of Boston. And we were part of the force busing movement back in the early 70s. It was a hugely controversial time, and I remember our school bus being held up by white protesters, and we were white in the bus and, you know, having things thrown at the bus. And once we got to school, though, it was like a safe haven. I went to school in Roxbury, Massachusetts, it was a black neighborhood. But our school was new. Our teachers were mostly young and caring. It was part of a social experiment.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think it makes a good point. I think the way that you grow up and the way you've experienced the world influences your current worldview about race
Louis Celli:No, 100%. Yes, absolutely. My parents didn't pre programmed me with ideas about what to expect. They just sent me to school. My two best friends in school were Curtis and Renee, Curtis was was black. He had a huge Afro and Rene was Filipino. I just knew them as kids I hung out with
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I can understand that. You know, given my experience in the VA system, I felt like the VA had done so much to try to reduce these issues and eliminate the barriers to care. After all, everyone who serves and sacrifice for the country is equal. And the military, I've always thought of as this great melting pot in our society, where people get to spend time together live together that normally wouldn't. Or at least that's the way it's supposed to be.
Louis Celli:So that's exactly what we're going to hear from our our two guests today. Reuben green and Gloria dent. Yeah. GLORIA retired from the US Army a couple years ago as a Command Sergeant Major, and now she's the president of her own women's own minority company. And Ruben is a retired naval lute Talent commander who wrote a book called Black officer white Navy. You know, I actually met Ruben when he made a comment on one of my posts on LinkedIn. I innocently I posted a picture of my basic training platoon and commented on the diversity in my unit. And then I compared it to today and the investigation by the Department of Defense into extremism into the military. rumen Ruben mused on my post about the perspective of the black soldiers in my platoon or the gay ones. I went to basic training in 1980. My unit was about 55%, white, about 40%, black about 5%, Hispanic, we had about six or seven women in our platoon and a couple of gay soldiers and our drill sergeant was black.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah. Well, Lou, there's a lot to talk about here. And there's a lot to unpack. So why don't we get right to the podcast?
Louis Celli:GLORIA Rubin, thank you for joining us on the positive x podcast today. We really appreciate you being here. Thank you. Thank you.
Dr. David Shulkin:GLORIA. Why don't we start with you. You spent nearly three decades in the army. Can you tell us a little bit about why you joined and weather your expectations lived up to your experiences?
Gloria Dent:Yes, thank you. So good morning. I'm really appreciate you all taking the time out not only talking about this important, tough subject, but it is something that's near and dear to my heart. So I joined the military in 1984. straight out of high school, I was 17 years old. And I wanted to be an aviator, I wanted to be a pilot. And so I looked at all my opportunities that was there. And I got a scholarship to the University of Alabama. Because I'm from Greensboro, Alabama, I got a scholarship to the University of Alabama, to be a become an agriculture specialist, which means that I was going to have to go back on a farm. No. So I weighed my options. And I found out that the army was allowing females now at that time, I'm in rural Alabama. And although when I now know that there were plenty of females, I didn't know that at the time. So as a result of that, I joined the military at 17 years old. And I went into my my wonderful recruiting officer. And he explained to me that I could join the army. And I could be on as many places as I wanted to. And he put me in this MLS call 77 Foxtrot, which is a petroleum supply person. And I seriously expect it to be flying aircrafts, because that's exactly. He said, Oh, no, you'll be on the aircraft all the time, you'd be out on the field, you know, on airstrip. And the one thing that he said is that when you get to your duty station, you will be in aviation. That's what we call that in the army. And I was so excited. So out of all the stories that he told me, the only thing was I was absolutely in aviation. So I was happy to hear that question. But then after you I overcome that, I realized that, you know, the army was a place that can definitely better the quality of life that I was living, which is on a rural farm, and that I could become successful by doing exactly what I've done on the farm, which is doing what I'm told. And so I didn't make it a career. And I spent 26 years I tell people all the time, the best time the best decision I ever made, was to come in the army and to retire from the army. So I'm happy to say today that after 26 years of being in the military, I have no regrets.
Louis Celli:Glory. I'm sorry, but that's kind of funny. So, so Ruby version of this. So Ruby, you spent about the same amount of time in the in the Navy as an officer. When you join the Navy, you know, was your career really reflective of what you expected it to be?
Keith Reuben Green:Actually, it wasn't it wasn't I to join the Navy, as a 17 year old, dropped out of high school at 17 wanted to become a naval officer. I knew that was a very narrow path. But I knew I couldn't get there washing dishes in a mental hospital and picking oranges in Florida Orange Grove. So I called the Navy recruiter, my father's told me he would not sign the papers for me to join the Navy because the Navy was too racist. I went around him and had my stepmother and my mother actually sign the papers and have to recruit her and I finished lying to each other. He signed me up to be a mind man. And I went to my m&a School in Charleston, South Carolina. Fast forward nine and a half years later, I've completed a associate's degree, a bachelor's degree, and I applied for the third time to get a commission which was via OCS. I was one of the few people in my OCS class that actually put myself through college in my spare time and then and then became an officer. So once I became an officer at the almost the 10 year point is exactly where I wanted to be. But that was where I really began to experience some of the pushback from some of my peers and some of my subordinates, but I wound up doing once I got to see on my first ship I stayed at sea for four consecutive seat tours. One is a division officer And three as a department head. And then I went to my first shore duty job. My father was right that there was racism in the Navy, but he was wrong, and that it wasn't so much that I couldn't handle. It wasn't until my last tour and my first shore duty as an officer that I really encountered some serious problems.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, Rubin, you ended up writing about your experiences in the Navy with a really excellent book called Black officer, white Navy. You know, I wrote a book too. And the reason you write a book is because you have an important story to tell and something that you believe in. But it probably for me was that my time in as Secretary got cut short by a presidential tweet. So that for me was the moment where I decided, I'm definitely going to write this book. Was there a moment for you? Was there something that happened in all of your experiences, where you said, I'm going to write a book about this?
Keith Reuben Green:I looked around for many years trying to find first person accounts of people that have served in the military after the Vietnam War, particularly minority veterans, there are almost no stories first person accounts written. So when I couldn't find one, I decided to write one. And the real catalyst for me was the lead up to the 2016 election, I started seeing some signs that we're about to enter another cycle of divisiveness in the country. And that always reflects in the military. So I wanted people don't understand what a career in the military might look like from a minority service person or officer perspective. So the more research I did, the more I realized it was critical that someone start telling this story.
Louis Celli:So glory, I'm sure that you were witnessing even victim of prejudices of many kinds, both duty your race and your gender, can you tell us a little bit about some of your experiences,
Gloria Dent:so experienced in the military has been the Lone Ranger, as I like to call myself, so I told you that I came into the MLS, which is petroleum, which is predominantly male. And so I was placed in a way that I grew up around a lot of boys. But I also understood the dangers of wanting to be all you can be, but not being made. And so at the time, there was a lot of gender bias. And so I really had a double whammy, I had the gender problems that I had to try to work hard to overcome. And then I also had the color barrier coming into aviation, I was unique, if you really want to think about it from the perspective that there were a lot of females in my unit, but I was one of two African American women that was in my unit. The irony of it is, is that I again, and never ever experienced racism in a manner that I did at my first duty station. I actually was put in a room by myself, because of the amount of racism that was going on in the ideation. And I don't know if the justification for that was because I was stationed in Texas, or if it was just simply, you know, really not understanding who I was. And so I spent the first year deciding if I was going to stay in the military, and then I finally decided that, no, I'm not going to get out of the military and or force someone to allow someone to force me to get out the military because I am a good soldier, and I do my job. And there's no reason justifiably on why, you know, I should continue to not be I'm sorry, continue to not stay in the military. So about a year into it. I had a major complaint of my platoon sergeant for sexual harassment. And at that time, I lived as I'm sharing with you in a barracks by myself in a room by myself in the barracks, and so they the first sergeant allowed platoon sergeants at that time to have keys to your rooms. And so, it the practice actually didn't stop until the letter later 90s there's always this one person that's got a key right and so the tone sergeants will go sign for the keys and they into the worst. And, and best case scenario, if you will, because something came out of it was my platoon sergeant came into my room in the middle of the night. And, of course, the Minister tried to assault me sexually. have sex with me. And so what I, the next one, and when I went to report it, my first surgeon, you know, he was white at the time, he explained to me that, you know, I was already born in line of causing a lot of problems in the organization. And if I brought this forward, then you know, it would only show that I really wasn't fit for the military. And so That didn't sit well with not only me, it did sit well with my spirit because one thing I knew I couldn't change was being black. And I knew I couldn't change being a female. And so I just made a decision just like I did to come into the military was to stand and fight. And, to his credit, I had a warrant officer, who, who was a white, Caucasian male, I was out on the airfield and he was coming. He was a crew, he was a Chinook pilot. And he said, What is he said, Wilson, what's wrong with you. And I actually told him everything that was going on. And that is the first time that I had anyone that not only listened to what I said, but he moved me within 24 hours, moved me out of the room that I was in, moved me out of the organization that I was in. And from there, I actually started to exhale. And I thought that racism and sexism had went away for a very long time. And then, of course, over time, my I had a lot of interactions. But that actually gave me what I call is my power. Because I didn't run, I actually stood and took my power. And I knew that if you get to the right person, you can make the change. So I will tell you that, in a nutshell, all of the racial tension, and racial experiences that I have, there is nothing compared to the things that people go through in their lifetime. And so for me, racism has been something that I don't agree with it, but I've learned to live with
Dr. David Shulkin:Gloria, that's, that's such a powerful story. And I can't tell you how much I admire your bravery and willingness to share that because so many people I think, have experienced this. And by you sharing it, it's helping others. You must hear from a lot of people that are currently serving, do you feel that the situation in the military today is different than what you experienced? Or do you think these are still real issues?
Gloria Dent:No, I absolutely believe that they're still real issues. And I do hear from from a lot of the younger generations that are still in the military, I still have a lot of soldiers that contact me to you know, because they're sharing some of the same problems, nothing has changed with the biases. And a lot of the times what I can tell you is, isn't getting better. I think that in the last year, I would say that the senior leadership in the military has really turned on a or open their eyes, if you will, to try to see what's going on, and then to accept the fact that racism is real, and that it's not something that you got to run away from. But I will tell you, right, wrong, good, better different. But this is just Gloria densen. opinion, the military has structured itself, by demographics, by the entry, the entrance exam, the aspect. And so because of the way the military has changed over the last, I would say last 10 years, where they're allowing women to go into Combat Arms and molasses, and integrate them in integrating women into those fields. For the gender portion that helps. But when it comes to racism, you can't take the test and decide that you can go into a career field and you got to get a balance of power. You have to do this deliberately, you have to look at the demographics. And you really have to say, Maybe she did score, he did score under 100 on this exam, but can they do this thing? And so I do think that is changing his eye has hasn't changed since I was in the military left the military. Yes. But I do think that racism is we haven't even touched the tip of the spear for racism.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, and Ruben Gloria had mentioned that it really was a white pilot that took the time that listen to her and acted in and really helped change her situation for the better. Do you find that there's an openness now to people listening to what you're saying and beginning to understand that these are real issues that do need to be addressed?
Keith Reuben Green:Well, what disappoints me the most is the people that try to invalidate my life's experiences, my research, all the data that's available to show that the things that I write about are actually real and are still happening to people today. And that's a disappointment, or the ones who tried to downplay it. And some of them are just outright hostile. I've been called a racist more in the last two years than ever in my whole life. And it's sort of amusing, because the People that are calling me a racist have never experienced racism in their life. They want to talk about reverse discrimination. And but they don't really, they aren't interested in learning about how racism impacts both the individual the unit and the national security.
Louis Celli:Ruben, you write a lot about racism issues and articles on LinkedIn. In addition, you know, to your book, what would you say disappoints you the most about people who just don't understand your message?
Keith Reuben Green:Absolutely, I get messages and calls from people, I had a 94 year old Jewish guy, send someone down to my house and leave a note on my gate wanted me to call him and I called him up. And he went into great detail about the anti semitism he experienced in 1952 in green Cove Springs, Florida, not too far from here. And I've had serving white, active duty officers contact me I've had everyone from e4 to you know, flag officers reach out to me to have discussions. And I really do think that this is the first time since the service chiefs and Secretary defense were aligned in opposition to ronald reagan when he was railing against affirmative action. And the service chiefs all lined up and said we need for this to happen. Now I'm seeing the same thing today in the pushback against the extremism training that Secretary Austin and his leaders are trying to put forth. So there is a potential for this to turn the corner. But we have to be careful that we don't get sucked into the cult culture wars, and get sidetracked by what the DOJ is actually trying to do. They are much more aware of how deep the problems are than the general public. So I think the fact that they're talking about this, and pushing to resolve some of these issues is an indication that they're worried about the national security and political implications of racism and extremism in the military.
Louis Celli:GLORIA early, you talked about some of your experiences with racism in your career, and how you dealt with it and how you've lived through it. And you know, how it's made you a little bit stronger? Do you? Do you feel the same way Ruben does about you know, how people interpret your story? Are you getting the same type of pushback? Is it different? Maybe it's a different form, from a woman's perspective than it is from a man's perspective or an enlisted perspective versus an officer perspective? What is your perspective? After you've heard Ruben talk about how they've called him a racist just for bringing up the topic?
Gloria Dent:So a great question. So for me, I have not had anyone call me a racist to call me anything. I have not had that that occur not only in my career, but in life. What I will tell you is that I'm unapologetically genetically black, I am not going to ever and I learned that lesson early on from the story that I tell, there's two things that I said that I can't change, I can't change being black, and I can't change being a woman. And by the way, I don't want to change being either one of those, those being either black or being a woman. But I am open to a conversation, I have never hid from the fact that color is a reality in the world. And I remember in 1997, becoming an ag inspector general in the army, and I was in first Cavalry Division, which is predominantly male, and predominantly white, very few minorities are in the infratry MLS is as it stands. But coming into the IGA office, it just kind of took me to a different level of understanding. And I remember one thing that I've always learned from inspect the job, and when I went to school, he said, as an inspector general, you have the responsibility of not granting the lines, not walking the line, but ensuring that no one crosses the line as well. And you cannot sit up and talk about a person and not really tell them what's going on. someone talks to you about racism, don't sit up and say, Sergeant so and so Colonel Sorenson is a white male or black male, and do not try to hide away from race because race is real. And it's a Do not hide away from sex, because sex is real. And I thought, wow, out of all the things that I learned, he was absolutely correct. And so when I went into my leadership roles, I was always cognizant of having a real conversation about real problems with real people, and a dialogue with several of my peers. But the first thing I explained to them is that if I can't tell you about it, say a white male or white female or black male, then you probably don't want to talk to me because that's the reality of what we are. And so I think I'm tougher station is worth heavy. And I'm glad that we're having this conversation today for that very same reason.
Dr. David Shulkin:Ruben Gloria talks about having conversations and you referred to Secretary Austin, beginning to address these issues in the military, as you know, he's called for a 60 day stand down in the military to address extremism. What do you think of that approach? And do you think that it's likely to have an impact?
Keith Reuben Green:I think it's a good approach. But I also think it's, it's, it's jumping a step, because what he's talking about is behaviors. Some people try to frame this as going after people who have different thoughts than you do and what have what have you. But what he's talking about is behaviors. And racism and discrimination are behaviors, the most likely person to engage in those behaviors is someone that has extreme views. So you're looking for extremists, but what you ought to be looking for his behaviors from certain individuals, and how that impacts the unit. And we've seen multiple examples of how one individual can cause a lot of problems in a unit. Well, I was a, an engineer in the Navy, and I knew that that's just a little bit of contamination, my fuel could ruin the whole system. So you don't need much to have a large impact. So I think Secretary Austin, and and the rest of the service chiefs need to come up with some really good definitions. What exactly are you talking about? What does extremism mean? How does that manifest itself in behavior? And they also need to go back, you know, back to Truman's executive order talking about discrimination and racism, that hasn't really been clearly defined in the services. So until we all are working from the same sheet of music, on what cost what this definition constitutes, then it's going to be a difficult conversation.
Louis Celli:Gloria, you're recently retired, but What say you, man?
Gloria Dent:So I. So I echo, not only what Ruben has just said, but so for me, this is the one thing that I'm cognizant of is what is racism? And then what is a racist? I think the definitions are absolutely critical. When talking about race and race relations. The one thing that the army did, is they have the Equal Opportunity advisors that are in all of the organizations and they go around that you have the race relation training. And so those trainings are very scripted. I think that we have to have a very open conversation and a very frank conversations, and I think the decisions that are have to be made need to start at the entrance, I think the services needs to completely revamp the ads valves and the various different tests to make the difference in this this process. And I think they have to relook at the promotion systems that are in the military. I don't think that by going around having a 60 day stand down, and you still have the same processes that are occurring, it's creating the institutional racism, it's got until you make that change, you're really not going to fix the outcome. The 60 days down down is a start the work that they're doing it, you know, West Point and the various different councils that they have that they put together. I think those working groups are going to be a great conversation. But I think the entire military structure has to be relooked at in order to make the difference.
Dr. David Shulkin:Glory, I think your point about making structural changes is really important. And we may be in a very unique time in history, given what this country has gone through in the past year and a half, you know, the environment in Washington. Do you think that there is a legislative fix here? Do you think that there are public policy initiatives that need to get done in order to help move some of those structural changes?
Gloria Dent:Absolutely. It is really going to start with not only public policy, but it's going to start with legislation. it no matter how we talk about racism, you got to put something in a pen and a piece of paper for someone to carry it out. It's really as simple for me is no matter how many people that knew that. The COVID virus, you know Coronavirus was contagious. You needed the government, the government to say put on a mask, you know, and so it's as simple as if you do this, you will be prosecuted for it and I need a rule in order to prosecute you. So yes, I absolutely that the legislation has to be and I also believe that it will happen. I happen to know quite a few people that are actively involved in making sure that legislation get before Congress and I do believe this Congress and everyone generally wants to change the direction of where race is going in our country.
Louis Celli:Ruben we're hearing a lot lately about woke People about critical race theory. Can you help explain exactly what that means?
Keith Reuben Green:Well, woke depends on which side of the argument you're on. Woke means basically being aware and understanding social justice and racial issues. Whereas on the opposite side of the spectrum, it's used as a derisive term to downplay the political correctness and things like that. I'm not a critical race theory expert, but I'm pretty knowledgeable about the boogeyman. And to me the critical race alarmists are using the same scare tactics that have been used in the past. There's a very good definition of critical race theory on Wikipedia. Even the people that are practitioners can agree on what it what the actual definition is. So I would encourage anyone, rather than listen to the you know, the sky's falling talk, understand how it originated, why it what it relates to racism, and the law and how that affects our country, how the laws that were enacted, affect people of different races differently by design. And there is a long history of that, that goes back to the founding of the country. But it is not teaching people to hate each other, as our as my Florida Governor says, and it is not anti white, it is not unconstitutional is not anti American. You have to once again, we all have to make sure that we're talking about the same thing with there's a certain number of facts that you use in an argument. But when you start covering up those facts with opinions, and diversions, then it muddies the waters. But I would strongly suggest that anybody, just Google, you know, the definition of woke and then critical race theory, and look at it not from your own partisan standpoint. But what do the words actually mean? According to the dictionary?
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, that's really good advice, Reuben, you know, glory, I wanted to talk a little bit about the veteran community. And, as we've seen, both in Charlottesville, and also on the January 6, assault on the Capitol, we've seen a number of veterans get caught up in those events. Do you think that that tells us that we need to be doing more with our veterans, to be able to address these issues to make sure that people who have served in the country aren't getting caught up in things that that could ultimately lead to a divide in the military and the divide in the veteran community.
Gloria Dent:I absolutely believe that the veterans population leave the military. And they forget, because they don't have the training every month, every year to remind them to do the right thing. But there's a campus that everybody that served, they have, it's almost like the handshake, that's not really even there. The camaraderie that goes on between the active duty reserve, no matter what branch you came in, we all end up veterans. And so no matter how the career started, this is where we all get, I think that the opportunity for us, from the VA from everybody that can touch a person that has served in his military. That means you got to multiply that by millions of times that you can educate the community that you serve. And so as a community, activist, community leader, I would love to see an opportunity through the VA or anywhere else that could actually educate veterans on racism as well, similar to what we do with suicide prevention. And you know, the other things that affect veterans because this one thing that we were talking about racism, I just want to add one comment that about the veterans on that, when you are in the military, you're held accountable. So you're less likely to do those kinds of things. Unfortunately, if you when you are a veteran, and you're out of the military, if you end up in the justice system in the incarceration system, that system is much much more unforgiving than the military. So not only do we not lose the veteran to suicide, PTSD, or any of those other things, now we're losing the the veteran to a social issue, one that we can talk about, and we can resolve. So I would not like to see any other veteran get locked up or have a criminal record as a result of not knowing. And I would just like to say that and again, in addition to what route is it? I don't understand the term walk. So I haven't figured that out. So I would hope that at some point while we're doing definitions, someone can explain to me what woke me.
Louis Celli:So, Ruben, point blank. Do we have an extremist problem in the United States military today?
Keith Reuben Green:I can give you my opinion on that because I'm not privy to the data. But I certainly do believe that we have an extremism problem in the military today. The behavior that is manifested, in that the Coast Guard officer that was caught with our arsenal and a hit list of, of politicians and individuals that he wanted to kill, there was just a Marine, who. He's a young PFC. So we're talking, he had a bunch of weapons, and he was a part of a white supremacist group, you always understand that the actual numbers that are not representative of the problem, same way with sexual harassment, sexual assault in the military, it tends to go deeper than what's actually being reported and acknowledged. So I think there is a problem. I don't know the extent of the problem. I think the Department of Defense is trying to find that out. But they're alarmed enough about it to know that we have got to turn this around and get people focus back on the basics of service. And that starts with your oath of office. And the the laws are enforced in this nation, that prohibit people from treating people differently because of their race or their ethnicity.
Dr. David Shulkin:Gloria, you had mentioned earlier about some of the things that the VA could do, to try to help educate and inform veterans. I wonder whether you or Ruben, whether you have had any experiences in the VA system itself. And whether you've seen racism in your experiences in the VA, or whether you've talked to veterans who've experienced racism in the VA health care system?
Gloria Dent:So my answer is unequivocally Yes. on a regular basis, I help veterans work with them to do their VA claim claims and also help them get into the VA health care system as well. It says, As late as yesterday, racism actually had to enter colic, a patient advocacy representative because of racism. And it was really sad, because the individual really didn't need to help everybody was entitled to the help. And they were simply told that the things that occurred to them in Vietnam, one of his claims was overt racism. And that was one his plight, and because the claim was substantiated it but it did not give him a 100% rating. So he can only go to the VA for what he's rated for. And unfortunately, the medical system don't treat overt racism. And I said, That's not true. That's a mental health issue. And the problem he's having his mental health. So how dare you make the leap that you know you because you don't agree with overt racism, and you don't believe that he experienced it in Vietnam doesn't mean that he is less entitled to the mental health system. And so for me, a lot of changes has got to be made not only in the active forces, but also in the VA system with how we deal with veterans. I cannot tell you how many teenagers that I have. When I'm having Vietnam veterans tell me the things that they've experienced. It makes my eyes look very minor when they talk about their experiences in racism.
Dr. David Shulkin:RUBIN Rubin, how about you any experience with the VA system?
Keith Reuben Green:I'm fairly new to the VA system for 20 years after I retired, I wanted nothing to do with the VA or the military, I was licking my wounds, trying to make sense out of what had happened to me. I had been diagnosed with depression in my last year in the service, and it was because of the racism the blatant and unrelenting racism I was experiencing from my commanding officer. So I avoided anything to do with the VA. And after I wrote my book, I had a buddy of mine called me after we read the book, and he said, Keith, he said, You need to file a claim with the VA. He said, I've been getting compensation for years, he says you definitely qualify. So I had one of my I had one of my shipmates that I'd known for 30 years submit a letter of support. And this is a Navy Captain jag officer, we started out as Surface Warfare officers, and ended our careers on the same base. He was well aware of what had happened to me in certain instances, and he also read my book. So I submitted a buddy letter, which was very helpful to me getting a disability, I did have an experience that's not related to the VA but is related to healthcare. And I think it's important because it shows that my experiences from 25 years ago, are mirrored in what's happening to me now. I told my one of my doctors at the Naval Hospital in the TRICARE program that I'd written a book about my experiences in the in the military, and he didn't like the title of the book. And you know, the body language was very clear to me. So the next time I came in to see him, I was laying on the exam table getting ready to have a biopsy and he walks in and he accuses me of having improperly scheduled my biopsy without his knowledge or permission. I don't know anyone who's ever done that. But that was accusation made against me. And I insisted that I hadn't done it and I filed a complaint against them on Martin Luther King Day this year. It took me 110 days, three separate investigations, and I G investigation traquair grievant, and two letters to his command to get an acknowledgement from that command that I had done nothing wrong. I do believe that race was a factor in the way that he had treated me. And I asked his commanding officer, when she called me This is a full commander. She said, we never thought that you'd done anything wrong. I said, Well, apparently, two of your doctors did, because his boss said that, technically, when you accepted the appointment that we offered you, you did Schedule your appointment, so it was all dancing, and all this dancing around the issue. But I explained to her, I said, I want to know why this happened to me. And she said, we may never know the answer to that, well, that's a leadership problem. If you have an individual who is mistreating someone, and that is brought to your attention, you are it is incumbent upon you to find out why these behaviors are happening. So until the leadership gets behind, trying to nip these incidents in the bud, we're going to continue to have these problems. I found myself fighting the same battle that I fought at the end of my career, having mental health issues, while I'm sitting there trying to find out whether I have cancer or not. And the doctor who was responsible for conducting that test was causing further psychological harm. This happened 11 days after the January 6, nine days after the January 6 insurrection. So it was very distressing to me to have an angry white man standing over me getting ready to do an invasive procedure on me and accusing me of something that I had not done. My goodness,
Louis Celli:before we go, can you can you tell us? Is there hope for an end to racism? I mean, and if so, does that come from education, discipline, you know, greater community integration with glory? Let's start with you.
Gloria Dent:So I think it ends with changing policy. I think that to x a person, what color they are, what race they are, it just needs to stop. Why do you need to know that? If you if you stop separating me on these kind of demographics that he has not changed, we're not one thing since we've been putting them. You know, since I've been filling out a form and it's not changed one thing, it didn't help to treat me better in manufacturing, but 99% of time I get treated worse. So I think that if you had American, I don't think you need to be Hispanic American, Native American, I think you need to be an American, until that's the only thing that you need to ask me. Am I a citizen, or non citizen? That's it. So I think if we want to end racism, we very well can. There's a lot of smarter people much, much smarter than me, there's a lot of smart people like, you know, Mr. shulkin, and everyone else that are really, really high level, I think there's that needs to get into a thought leadership operative form, and really figure out how to end it. And I think it's really simple by treating all Americans the same, not not whether they're color or gender.
Keith Reuben Green:If racism is going to end, it's going to be because of people like the warrant officer that rescued Gloria, when she was having all those problems. I do have a story like that there was a master chief petty officer who went to bat for me when I was finished getting my bachelor's degree, getting a lot of pushback, because people did not want to see me succeed. He stood up for me and allowed me to complete my bachelor's degree. And that's what set me on the path to being a naval officer. His name was Daniel J sapiro. And he always hates it when I bring up his name, but he is a hero to me. And I want people to know it. People like those two individuals are what are going to make the difference. And they usually are white people that have to step up and say, what I'm seeing is wrong, and we need to fix it. And I so often, when I would present problems that were happening to me as an officer, so many people just refuse to acknowledge what was happening. And that made it worse, both for me and for them.
Louis Celli:Ruben Gloria, I really want to thank you for being here today and sharing your personal stories, and exposing yourself. You know, this isn't something that people stand on the street corner, and just, you know, just a spouse. So I think it's an important conversation to have, as both of you have mentioned. And, you know, from from the Secretary and myself, thank you so much for being here today.
Keith Reuben Green:Thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.
Gloria Dent:Thank you.
Louis Celli:Well, that is all the time we have for today. Thank you so much for making policy. That's podcast, one of the most listened to podcasts in America among all nonprofit organizations. Hey, join us next week. When we are joined by one of our board of directors Phyllis Wilson and Lucy Delgado. Want to talk about sexual assault in the military, and how this affects our national defense posture. You're not going to want to miss this. Join us next We
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