Join Dr. Shulkin and Lou Celli as they speak with Phillis Wilson and Lucy Del Gaudio. Phyllis is a retired Chief Warrant Officer 5 and Policy Vets BOD member, and Lucy is a Military Sexual Assault victim who works to advocate for other Military Sexual Trauma victims. Different eras, different experiences, same problem - is it getting any better?
Join Dr. Shulkin and Lou Celli as they speak with Phillis Wilson and Lucy Del Gaudio. Phyllis is a retired Chief Warrant Officer 5 and Policy Vets BOD member, and Lucy is a Military Sexual Assault victim who works to advocate for other Military Sexual Trauma victims. Different eras, different experiences, same problem - is it getting any better?
I went from being a very high performing soldier to a soldier that became very belligerent. I didn't want to do some of the duties that I was asked upon, especially for those who were involved in. I want to say the cover up. It was very hard for me to trust. I went directly to them to report it, and nobody did anything. And they were trying to find every single action against me. The retaliation that was put on forth was just unbearable.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy bets podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your hosts, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion Louis Celli. Today's guest, Phyllis Wilson, president of the women and military service for America Memorial Foundation, and Lucy Delgado, a US Army veteran and sexual assault survivors advocate.
Dr. David Shulkin:Lou, I'm sure you know, women are the fastest growing segment of today's military recruits.
Louis Celli:Yeah, Mr. Secretary, you know, I know that and that's why I'm glad that we're talking about such an important issue like military sexual trauma today.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Lou, it's a serious topic. And it's an issue that not only has a real tragic human element to it, and then injustice. But let's just look at it from the focus on the military force that takes that focus away from the warfighter mission and weakens our national defense posture. And of course, this issue not only affects women.
Louis Celli:Yeah, you know, that's a really good point, Mr. Secretary, and you know, the thing about the national defense posture, that's huge. We touched a little bit about a little bit on that last week. And I think you're right. You know, this week's topic on military sexual assault strikes a deeper moral injury for victims, it changes their lives forever.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, that's why I think this podcast is so important, because we hear directly from two individuals who have the courage to tell us their own stories, and you can hear how this steals their whole entire military experience from them and many cases as long lasting impacts on their self esteem and their psychological state.
Louis Celli:Yeah, and, as I think some people might know, but we'll hear today in a great many cases, you know, the attacker isn't some random stranger stalking through the night. It's it's a co worker, it's a supervisor, it's, you know, it's someone they thought they trusted a maybe a friend.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, but in fact, they're actually predators, they prey on victims that they believe that they can physically and mentally dominate. And of course, I'm through this power and really abuse what the military system is about.
Louis Celli:So So let's talk about that for a minute. Right. So let's talk about the Department of Defense's research. In the most recent research, the Department of Defense God has issued and I'll quote now, do the authorities receive reports on sexual assault involving service service members and victims and or alleged perpetrators this year, of the total of 7816 reports received by God and FYI, 26,290 involved allegations from service members for incidents that occurred during military service. This is up 1% from the 6236 service members reported into FYI 19 reports from civilian victims and service members are growing. So this is up 1% from 2019 Listen, this is up 1% from 2019 it's up 1% from 2019
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, it's really hard to believe that with people now have been talking about this topic for years, you would think that we would have made more progress and in fact, it looks like we're going backwards.
Louis Celli:Yeah, you know, I'm not so sure.
Dr. David Shulkin:I it's hard to know low but what what why do you think that this is not making more progress than it is?
Louis Celli:Because however, we've been addressing this issue so far, it just isn't working. You know, the numbers are going up. So it doesn't matter what God is doing. They're getting it wrong, and and the men and women in uniform that are being sexually assaulted more than at any time over the past decade. As a matter of fact, sexual assaults in the military have gone up every single year consistently for the last 10 years in a row. So now I want to hear what God is doing. about it I, I want to hear what Congress and the administration plan to do about it. Because, you know, it's obvious God doesn't have the skill set to handle this. And they probably just don't even have the stomach to handle it.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, I do think Secretary Austin's taking a fresh look at this. But there's no doubt this is going to take everybody willing to look at the very hard reality that we're not making the progress we need. That's why we have Phyllis Wilson and Lucy delgadio. With us today. We want to explore the issue with them, and talk about how lawmakers and senior federal executives can dig in to figure this out, because we just have to do this differently.
Louis Celli:You know, and unfortunately, it takes a young soldier like Vanessa, again, to be brutally slaughtered, before there's enough outrage to get the attention of lawmakers.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, you're right, people like Vanessa and other victims. They're really why we owe them the responsibility to dig into this issue. And as well as exploring the military justice system and the President's support of taking jurisdiction away from military commanders. When it comes to sexual assault cases. There's just this system needs to operate differently.
Louis Celli:Yeah, well, Mr. Secretary, so so let's get back to our guests. Right. So Phyllis is not only the president of the military women's Veterans Memorial here in Washington, DC, but she's also one of our board members here on policy bats.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, she's an amazing person as as our other guests Lucy delgadio, who was sexually assaulted by superior noncommissioned officer when she was in the army, and that noncommissioned officer was never convicted of assault was allowed to retire. And yet Lucy was forced to retire out that they are me. And a couple months ago, she told her story into a congressional subcommittee in the wake of the Vanessa again, inquiries. Mama, Secretary,
Louis Celli:let's get him in here so we can get started. Okay. Phyllis, Lucy, thanks for agreeing to join us here on the podcast, the policy that's podcast today.
Dr. David Shulkin:Thank you so much. Thank you. Lucy, why don't we start with you? Why don't you just tell us a little bit about your story where you're from? Why did you join the army? How many years did you serve? What what what rank did you achieve?
Lucy Del Gaudio:So thank you so much. It's an honor to be here with you today, sir. I joined the military. Basically, out of necessity. I grew up in northern New Jersey. And in 89 1989, my father passed away and my mother could not afford two daughters in college at the same time. So I sat them both down and ask them what what would they think would be the better fit for me, I went with the army because of the shorter boot camp. I'll be very honest, if I didn't think I could hack 1212 weeks. So I went to the army. My brother was my recruiter. He was a recruiter at the time in the Bronx. So I left out of Fort Hamilton. And then from there, I served eight years for actor for reserves. And I reached the rank of specialists due to the way I want to say the way my reserve service was primarily served. I was inactive. So I didn't reach the rank I that I really wanted to reach. I really wanted to make it a long term career, but based on what happened to me, I, you know, stopped I paused at a certain time. You know,
Louis Celli:Lucy, I want to say, hula, thank you for your service. And I was glad that you joined the army. I'm just I'm not happy about what happened. So Phyllis, how about you, you actually made a career out of the military and you you, you worked for general Milley before he was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, back when he was still the Secretary of the Army. Is that right?
Phillis Wilson:Absolutely. I did make a career of the military, also the army who and when I joined in 1980 went to basic training early 1981. It was a very different military than when I retired ultimately in 2018. But I will tell you, I had two careers simultaneously. I did my first four years regular active duty, met another soldier got married had two little ones and we just decided it was just problematic to do to military careers.
Dr. David Shulkin:Phyllis, you actually achieved the highest were an officer rank available WO5. How were you selected to work at the Pentagon for general Milley.
Phillis Wilson:Well, I served certainly for total of 37 years. But at the point that I was selected to serve as a senior fellow for the chairman, Chief of Staff, well, not the chairman, the Chief of Staff of the Army, before he became the chairman. It was quite a, an, basically a nationwide army wide search, they put out the applications or the, you have this massive packet, you have to submit and then you wait, with bated breath, if you will, to see if you get selected. That was a one year fellowship, which was in in john Millie's first year as the Chief of Staff of the Army. And we looked at issues that were going to affect the army and the country out to 2050. And really tried to help envision, what was the world going to be like? And how did we need to set the conditions properly for the army to be successful? well into the future. It was an interesting ride, and I was the only army Warrant Officers selected that year.
Louis Celli:Wow, that that's a great story. Lucy, you started out this podcast by alluding a little bit to some troubles that you had, you know, while you were in the military. And so you've told your story to Congress, you've been interviewed by a couple of different media outlets. But I'd like to ask you something a little different. Can you tell us what your experience was like, actually, before you were assaulted? And then after, you know, what was it like, you know, with between the two.
Lucy Del Gaudio:So I mean, my military career started very wonderfully. I mean, yes, I experienced, you know, a few racial slurs here and there, a sexual innuendo here and there. But as to performance wise, and my service, it was really high performing, I really thought I was going to really make it a career. Once I got to Germany, that's when everything really changed. And I was on station and had out. And that's when I started realizing that it was going to take a different direction. At first, the person that ultimately assaulted me was put on to become my mentor. We both had the same MLS in our in our unit, so they thought it would be great for me as a lower ranking, and CEO to be mentored by a higher ranking NCO. And at first, it was a very good working relationship, I really was taking a lot of notes from him. I was learning a lot about my MLS, and the experience were very positive. And then about six months into the mentorship. That's when I started seeing a little bit of a different take. And the experience happened the first experience happen during being taped, measured. The way he taped measured me was incredibly inappropriate. And I had said something I said I felt incredibly uncomfortable. And then a few weeks later, he ultimately assaulted me. And and then I then everything just changed from there.
Dr. David Shulkin:Let's see. Were you sensitized to this issue before this happened? Were you aware that this was a risk to you? Had you talked to other women are others who have experienced something similar?
Lucy Del Gaudio:Absolutely not when it came to the assault to the harassment? Yes, there was a multiple young women at and actually young men in my unit that had experienced some sort of harassment, but nothing about assault and that was where I was incredibly thrown off. I was I just didn't know how to react to what happened to me. And then the steps forward even became more of shocking to me as it you know, as everything started to take, you know, effect it's painful and
Louis Celli:Phyllis, you also shared publicly that that you were sexually assaulted as a soldier Can Can you share share with us what happened?
Phillis Wilson:Yeah, sure. So again, basic training young and dumb, you know, join the army and you just have this thing it was the be all you can be era of the army and I wanted part of that and in basic training one evening, four of us basic trainee females were shuttled over to one of the the permanent party the guys that lived there all the time, but the office spaces and we were to go in and tidy up these officers areas and it was just this rotation It was our turn to do it. And that evening, well, I'm we will all in different office rooms cleaning, but as I'm doing it, they one of the male sergeants that was the one that brought us over, he closes the door unlocked and he starts walking towards me and he says He's on zipping his pants. You've been here for five weeks, you know you want it and it took me a second. But of course with his pants being unzipped, I had a pretty quick, but luckily, I have brothers and I like Lucy, I, you know, I wasn't always the best sister. But I didn't know how a knee to the groin would feel based on how I had done it to my brothers once upon a time, while I employed the same technique dropped into the floor, hands shaking and hollering for my other three battle buddies. And we hightailed it out of there with all of us. You know, again, the lingo of sexual assault. And we'll talk about this a little bit more in detail later, you know, was not raped. I was scared to death. Absolutely. And we ran two plus miles, probably, I would have said a land speed record that night. But we reported it. And we just, again, young and dumb, nobody ever came back to tell us what transpired. But our drill sergeants were so incredibly angry. And I just had never seen them like that, you know, this was the era where they could cuss at you and do everything else. They and we had one male and one female drill sergeant. So I'd like to believe certainly, that there was that but again, because my career was much more Army Reserve. And so I have 16 years as a registered nurse, working in civilian hospitals outside of being a soldier the rest of the time. And I can tell you that it's not set aside only for the military, it seems to be the social problem is a societal problem. And but you know, those of us we have that expectation within the military that that trust factor, and once it's broken, it's very hard. And I think that's that goes back to Lucy's issue. Yep.
Dr. David Shulkin:Phyllis, tell us a little bit more about the reaction of the army after you reported this. You said that there was anger? Was the anger directed towards you? Or was it directed towards the sergeant that attacked you? And was there support offered to you throughout the process?
Phillis Wilson:Oh, support? Goodness, no, I were a backup. And I this was like, 930. At night, you just couldn't wait to get to bed basically, you know, we all made it back. We were I can't say we were traumatized. We were certainly it did something to us, no doubt. But the good news was there were four of us. So the corroboration was there. We weren't alone. So all four of us came back telling the exact same story. We never heard anything more of that we just had to, you know, we were in basic training, you were back at it at Oh, dark 30 The next morning, and that was the end of it. We never heard anything back of what they chose to do or not do with those four, and CEOs, one for each of us. They all went into a different room where we were done with, you know, cleaning up behind somebody. But boy, yeah, we did not hear anything further. But again, this was early 1981.
Louis Celli:And not only that, Phyllis, it was early in your career. So I want to ask you a two part question. And the first part is, you know, I asked Lucy a few minutes ago, what her world was like before the assault and what it was like after you were still in basic training. Can you tell me not only you know, what it was like for you before and after and your impression about what military service was like for you. But then, throughout your long and prestigious career? Were there any other instances where you know, you just knew that that it was wrong?
Phillis Wilson:Well, I think we all have been exposed to when we know it's wrong, right. But I will tell you that as a young basic trainee was I turned 21 and basic, I was not completely naive. But nonetheless, that have somebody in a position of power. I mean, we were scared to death. I was a private and NCO a star, any five was like God, whatever they told you to do, they totally drop and do push ups, you did push ups, if they told you to run around the building, if they told you to do whatever they told you to do, you did it. And so this just, it was the hardest to our core. But at the same time, we had a sisterhood. We were one platoon of females, three platoons of males all in the same company. Um, so we saw guys all the time, these were not the offenders. But the problem is, again, when they wear the same uniform, you wear theirs, they're supposed to be like your brothers, you can run to them and know that you are safe and not that they will abuse that, that that trust factor. That was the biggest thing. Yes, I had one other time in my whole career that I was very fearful that I would be would come to a very bad ending. But I finally realized, get a grip girl, you know, and, and was strong enough to do something about it. Of course I was in Warrant Officer Candidate School at the time. Again, this is when it seems to happen. But in my mind, it's when there are somebody with a position of authority and power over you. When those training and advisor warrant officers that were in charge of us. They knew they held our careers in their hands. If we screwed up, they could wash us out of the program. Yeah, finally, I remembered I'm married to another Warrant Officer, the same rank as you, who do you think you are, but I had my back against the wall. And he was, I finally came up out of it. But not everybody gets I mean, deer in the headlight. That's what it feels like, it was horrible.
Dr. David Shulkin:We'll see. Listening to both you and fellas, we can hear the impact this has had on you personally, and what this does to you as a human being. And, you know, it's a it's an incredible experience to go through. But I wondered whether you might be able to, in some ways, just describe to us what experiences like this after an assault, how it impacts your ability to perform your duties as a soldier in the army. You know, how does this impact the way that the military actually works from a from a personal perspective?
Lucy Del Gaudio:Well, for me, it became very, I became very, I went from being a very high performing soldier to a soldier that became very belligerent. I didn't want to do some of the duties that I was asked upon, especially for those who were involved in, I want to say the cover up, it was very hard for me to trust those that were in my I was the unit clerk. So I was within those walls, I went directly to them to report it, and nobody did anything. And you know, I would constantly ask, like, Is someone doing something about this? Are you going to report it? I don't see any paperwork going through the system? When is something going to be done? And then it was, it was always a question like, you know, private Shinya, are you sure that happened to you? Are you sure you understood what happened to you? And I was like, Yes, I did. And and then once I would question it, well, here you go, you're becoming belligerent again. And they were trying to find every single action against me. And it was, it was very difficult. The retaliation that was put on fourth was just unbearable. And again, as the build up to them, discharging me and becoming active to non active reserves, it was a very, it felt like forever. And the treatment was just every day was worse and worse. And I remember leaving the post, and I took like, this deep breath of fresh air, but it was still heavy, because I felt very tarnished. I felt like I didn't complete my obligation. And I felt like I basically, I didn't do what I set out to do. And I felt like a failure. Yeah.
Louis Celli:Phyllis, the issue of sexual assault in the military has been around for as long as we've had a military. As someone who has worked at the highest level of our military at the Pentagon, what are we doing to get it right? I mean, are the numbers getting any better?
Phillis Wilson:And, you know, sadly, I'm not seeing any evidence that we're, we're improving at all. You know, whether it's, you know, there's all kinds of anecdotal information as to what could be part of the causation. I will tell you as a soldier after 37 years, when you give us the same tired blocks of instruction on sexual assault, sexual harassment, year in and year out, year in and year out until you just glaze over and don't even listen to it anymore. It's the same craziness. We've got to do something that's more like a Scared Straight in my mind. We've got to do things that that will really empower and encourage these men to think about what if it was your sister, your, your mother, your daughter? That was in these situations? Would somebody bow up and say something to stop it? I just met a girl the other day, that was visiting the military women's Memorial. And she mentioned that her unit overseas, too. She doesn't feel like she's being sexually harassed. But she's being gender harass women shouldn't be in this in this kind of job specialty to be doing this. So she's I don't know what to say. I'm like, What have you let him know yet that you that makes you feel uncomfortable? And she's like, no, he outranks me. And I think that's one of the bigger problems we have within the military as opposed to the civil sector. We can't just say done out of here. You'll be a wall. I mean, you I have a top secret clearance, you would lose your security clearance for leaving after Somebody may have done something traumatic against you. And when you tell your unit, I mean, we've got to have that sense of trust. But But again, sadly, there's a two sided coin, these men and or women that make false allegations bring every one of these true allegations down a notch. And we've got to make sure that, you know, we hear every one of these, and we go through it. But we've got to make it where, you know, if you break your leg, nobody says anything about well, why didn't you get treatment? Why didn't you go to the doctor? Why didn't you, but if you are sexually assaulted, and you, you feel so dirty, that you cannot possibly go and be seen until you've cleaned yourself up? They're like, Well, why did you do that? Well, you have no idea how that woman or man feels as a result of what just transpired. So I think those are a lot of the things we're gonna have to dig deep, we're going to have to rip band aids off and find ways because I'm not seeing anything other than a sound of basically using medical things here. We're saving the situation as opposed to, you know, the light of days, daylight is the best disinfectant. I think that's what we've got to find.
Dr. David Shulkin:Lucy, I wanted to follow up on something that Phil said referred to when she was talking about that, that, you know, this is a issue that could happen to men and women, I think most people think about sexual assault of a man assaulting a woman. But I know you speak to people who have been victims of sexual assault, can you tell us about whether this is happening to both men and women? I think
Lucy Del Gaudio:you know, right now, assault and harassment in the military does not discriminate. It's affecting every single male, female, um, you know, the LGBTQ community in the military. So it does not discriminate, and we are seeing higher numbers in men reporting. And that's again, you know, there's that hazing concept that a lot of people have used the term of hazing when it comes to men. You know, hazing is assault, to me, whether you want to see it that way or not. And it is it's, it's very clear that we were, it's a pandemic, it's really affecting multiple, multiple layers of the military. We witnessed it during the IRC with the independent review, that men and women testified about their experiences. And in the culture, it's, I think it's a big cultural change. This, this power that higher ranking officers and CEOs have, and their abuse of power. It's just a very toxic culture. And again, it affects males and females alike.
Louis Celli:So I gotta tell you guys, I'm I'm doing my best to keep my language here in check. Right. Phyllis, I want to round back to you for a minute. You talked a little bit about false allegations. You talked a little bit about a story of a young woman who, when she told you about her, her situation, you know, you said, Well, did you mention it to him? And her response was, and you know, having served 22 years in the Army, I get this right. Her response was no, he outranked me. There's a couple of things. And Lucy talked about culture change. I'm really glad you brought that up. You know, we've been talking about culture change for 50 years. At some point, you know, that is no longer an excuse. So what I want to say is this, when you don a uniform, when you raise your hand, to defend the ideals, and the Constitution of the United States of America, you take on a higher standard of behavior, you are held to a higher standard of behavior. You have real authority. You don't it's not a civilian workplace environment, like you said, fill us with a person who can get up and leave. You have real authority over the people under you. So yes, the standard is that when you feel uncomfortable, you're supposed to say something. But that does not let the person that is a senior off the hook for the behavior that they are that they are exhibiting. We need to be held to a higher standard as noncommissioned officers and as officers in our military. And that's where the root of the problem is, and if we're not going to be held to higher standards. And I don't want to end with a statement. I want to leave a question. If we're not going to be held to a higher standard than we are no different than people who do not have a contract for their military. How do we change that? Phyllis?
Phillis Wilson:That's a really great question. I would say that we, you know, we always have had this ethics and, you know, what is the military profession? And how do we professionalize the force? How do we, you know, people we were, they say, we're a microcosm of the American society, right? We come from all walks of life, all backgrounds. And so when people come in, but but people that have always done well, even before they join the military, are just as likely it seems to abuse other soldiers and service men and women. I'm not trying to be an army, only personalized service men and women. It just, it seems like, in so often, a lot of the studies have shown the person that is the model, military, I mean, poster child for what you would think you want everything about that person to be in the military, is in fact, the person that commits these offenses. And it's just the easiest way to hide in plain sight, it seems to me and we've got to find a methodology, and a coding process that is not nearly so problematic. What Lucy does today in the civilian sector, God bless her that she does amazing work for a major firm, and she looks at diversity, and inclusion, and and all of these things, but you know, she was excluded, because somebody did something to her. And this we should never stand for. We, you know, I worked in the Special Operations community. And one of the things for our green berets is free the oppressed, we have them within our own ranks, that we, you could say are being oppressed, and we won't free them. But we'll go to another country to free those people. And we've got to find a way to fix this in a mannerism. We've got to find people that are dedicated to the cause. Rhonda cornum was a POW in the first Gulf War, both arms were broken when she was taken by the Iraqis. And she had all ideas and sure enough, she was raped by the Iraqi soldiers that found her. And she said, You know what, in her head, though, she dealt with that, as best she could, because she knew they were the enemy. The problem is when sexual assault happens, by somebody that wears the same uniform once wears to the same constitution as we do. That's where all contracts are broken. And we, and then you break that individual that they did to
Dr. David Shulkin:Lucy, I think that both you and Phyllis have been very articulate about why this issue really degrades our capabilities as a military and with 6% of all women servicemembers experiencing sexual assault last year, this is a big problem. So in your case, the noncommissioned officer that attacked, you was never convicted was allowed to retire. What do you think we need to do to fix this problem in the military?
Lucy Del Gaudio:I think one of the first things we have to do is report on change the reporting mechanism, it shouldn't be reporting to your chain of command, because your chain of command, nine out of 10 is the problem. Because again, they're going to protect those that have served longer than you. And that's what happened in my case, you know, my, the person was affiliated with the chain of command, and of course, they're going to take their side. And I think that's one of the biggest things that that that would help greatly. Again, I think the cultural changes to make it known that culturally, this is not acceptable. You know, harassment and assault shouldn't be a workplace hazard. And we have to do that mind shift. And, again, with, you know, Secretary, Secretary defense, Austin, commitment to doing the 90 day commission that was very bold, and I was very, very, I have to say, the last year has been an eye opener for me, because we were very aggressive with you know, when Vanessa again, and how we all moved, it was it was an eye opener for us, because we we saw we're like we can't take this anymore. This has to change. This shouldn't shouldn't take place in our military. And then with, you know, the bold move of doing the 90 day commission, and seeing and hearing our voices, because that's another thing that changed culturally in the last year, they started listening to us, they weren't listening to what happened to us. And once they started listening and seeing that it is really a very systemic problem. We started seeing that now. People are looking at it the right way. I mean, when I was assaulted in 92, one of my mentors was testifying about tell tale Hawk, and then it still continued to happen. So 92 tailhook 92, I'm assaulted, I'm testifying 2020 because of a young soldier being murdered. And it's still taking place. So we again, there, there just has to be changes. But I think with the biggest change would be reporting outside a chain of command. I think that's essential.
Louis Celli:Phyllis, what about you?
Phillis Wilson:Yeah, you know, I've read the legislation that's currently being debated. And, and I think certainly for the sexual offenses, I can see where that coming out of the chain of command. There are a few other things within that the current language, as I've read it, though, that that is, has nothing to do with sexual conduct any sexual connotation whatsoever. And I think that, you know, if the chain of command is we know how the military works, if that is taken away from them the authority to to administer judicial, you know, military to just punishment, whether article 15, or move it to a courts martial. In those cases, that, in my mind, I feel they should stay. But I'm with Lucy too, because, you know, I never got to come back on what happened when I was either a young soldier or as I was making that transition from being an NCO to becoming an army Warrant Officer. Well, and to be fair, to be honest, I did not report the second time, I didn't think it was going to go anywhere, I was savvy enough within the organization to No, shut up, keep your head down, get through this. And by then it wouldn't, what would it have done? It was wrong, and I wish I had done a better job, but I was still in my 20s. And you're looking for that career. And and it's so sad, whether it's in the civil sector or the the military sector, you know, what are we willing to accept as reasonable pain, physical and mental pain, to achieve and to still prove that I am a soldier, dammit, I'm good at this, I can I can make this happen. And so, you know, I found a way to navigate through. But I think you find a way also to not that you always have a battle buddy with you. But you get smarter as you get a little bit older on how to get through some of the more tense areas of a military career. And not, ideally not leave yourself in a situation but it happens at all ranks, you get it? It's not a young troop, only that these things happen to you. I wish I had a better answer. But I think that's why everybody, including those on Capitol Hill are still grappling with how do we get this right. But we know we haven't gotten it right so far. So I think a change of process is at least worth exploration at least for three to five years. And let's see what happens. You know, I don't want to say it can't get any worse, because it certainly could. But we are not where we need to be. And how do we encourage these young men and women and older men and women to be honest with you to to hold up their end of that bargain when they raise that right hand and swear an oath? They better mean it or they need to leave? Yeah,
Dr. David Shulkin:I wanted to ask you both about the treatment side, if you're a woman or a man who has experienced military sexual trauma. What advice do you have to seeking help? Whether it's in the Department of Veteran Affairs, the Department of Defense outside? Lucy, I know you've turned to running as one way of trying to work through this experience. Can you both just talk a little bit loosely, maybe with you about what advice you have for others?
Lucy Del Gaudio:Sure. So thank you for asking that because I I hid after I was discharged from the military. My discharge called with no benefits, I had no benefits. I still don't have any benefits, no benefits to the VA. My GI Bill was denied for me. So right now I'm in the process of actually getting all that in place. And I'm going through all my VA processes right now. Therapy is one of the best mediums for me. Again, I I hid for such a long time, I became very med dependent that really was causing a lot of other health issues. Once my doctor told me that a I was becoming I was about to become diabetic, I was hypertensive. I was really not taking care of myself. And I started I decided to be practice holistic running is one of the one of my holistic practices. I meditate I do yoga. Again, no meds whatsoever. Ever And then therapy, that has really changed the course of my, my self healing. And then now utilizing the Vet Center here in New Jersey that I utilize, it's been a world of good. For me, I just think that, again, the self healing process, not everybody heals the same way that others do, um, you really have to find your container and how you heal. But again, therapy, I tell everybody that therapeutics that I receive here in my Vet Center are just amazing. They are very knowledgeable, they do help me with all my, all the issues that I'm facing, because it's it's an ongoing I, every day have some sort of, you know, feeling. But also, you know, when I do have that trigger, and I have someone there to support, but also building a really great support network, I have a really incredible support network of other women, men that served with me, that have experienced them, different veteran organizations that have been very important to me. And I do have a very strong bond with others that they had experienced the same thing I have, but also are there to help me and to support me. So again, you know, therapeutics I, I totally recommend, but also building a great support network around you that helping grow.
Phillis Wilson:Yeah, absolutely. I think that we all find ways to get through the things that that have traumatized us, whether it was, you know, combat zones, just, you know, saying losing your friends, knowing where they're buried. Now, those kinds of things. I mean, I run for the same reason. It's an escape thing. It's a it's a, we all find our own things, I guess, being army, they ran us enough, it just seems like it's a fallback plan. For us, we just find those things that that give us some degree of comfort. And, to your point with having that that support mechanism around you is so incredibly important. I've been victim of myself at times where I will. Because I'm done with work, I go home, and I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't want to see anybody, you know, and I can do it for an entire weekend if I'm not working. And you know, it's just one of the things which is so detrimental to us. And so I think that's one of our calls to action here is really to encourage other people when you know somebody is, has been through a bad situation of any kind that let's talk about the sexual assault, it may have been 20 3040 years ago, there's a smell that will trigger it, there's a sound, there's who knows what the sensation is, that will cause you to go right on back. And they've got to know that somebody's got their back, you know, and don't let them get into that funk of hiding out for days and weeks. And you know, and many people, myself included, highly functioning, you're gonna see me at work every day, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do. But boy, when I get my downtime, I don't want to see a soul. We've got to find a way to work through that. Now I do get all of my medical care through the VA Medical Center as a retiree. And I can tell you I because I look at it from a different lens, being a senior person, I know who I can turn to within the VA system, to let them know if there's any shortfall. But again, to everybody that does utilize the VA, certainly, you know, give them their kudos, because I think they're doing a pretty good job. But But if there's something they can improve on, and trust me, every business, every organization always has room for growth and room for improvement. help them understand what it is they're not providing to you as a as a veteran speaking care, let them know what you need, because they can't just intuitively know that there's this other therapeutic, that works well for you. But the VA isn't offering it that would be one of my big challenges is maybe we could spring up some new programs across the across the tire VA programs. But in New Jersey, we're Lucy's out at the vet center. I mean, I think those are great lessons learned how do we continue to do that so that those outreaches are there and people know that you don't have to drive to a major military installation or post in order to seek care coverage.
Louis Celli:So Lucy, Phyllis, I mean, first, I want to thank you both for sharing your story. It's hard to expose yourself publicly, to help other service members so that they don't have to go through the same thing. Phyllis, I really appreciate what you said about the VA doing a good job. On the other hand, I hope that the VA never has to see another sexual assault victim ever and doesn't even have to provide that service. So with that said, we We have covered this really just the tip of the iceberg. And and we could go on all day. But unfortunately, this is, as I've said before, this is a part of the podcast that I get the most criticism about, because we're out of time. So we've got to wrap this up. I want to say thank you to both of you. The Secretary felt strongly about making sure that this was a podcast that we that we did, and that that we explored. And that's all the time we have for today. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.
Phillis Wilson:Yeah, thank you so very much for giving us this opportunity to tell the story.
Louis Celli:Thank you so much for joining us today for this really important topic. Hey, join us next week. As we talk about what it really means to be a military caregiver. We've got our guest, Miss Sarah berardo, who's going to give us really the day to day and inside, behind the curtains look of what it really means to be a caregiver of a military veteran who has come back with serious injuries. See that?
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