Sarah Verardo is a national advocate for wounded Veterans and their Caregivers, and CEO of The Independence Fund (https://independencefund.org/). Her husband Michael was catastrophically wounded in Afghanistan in 2010, in two separate IED attacks that took his left leg, much of his left arm, and left him with polytraumatic conditions that required more than one hundred surgeries and years of speech, visual, physical and occupational therapies.
Sarah's compelling story delves into the impact of the war on Afghanistan, getting personal about the impact on her husband, her children, and of course, herself.
Sarah Verardo is a national advocate for wounded Veterans and their Caregivers, and CEO of The Independence Fund (https://independencefund.org/). Her husband Michael was catastrophically wounded in Afghanistan in 2010, in two separate IED attacks that took his left leg, much of his left arm, and left him with polytraumatic conditions that required more than one hundred surgeries and years of speech, visual, physical and occupational therapies.
Sarah's compelling story delves into the impact of the war on Afghanistan, getting personal about the impact on her husband, her children, and of course, herself.
I know that when Michael deployed, he had two scenarios and that he was going to war and coming home or going to war and not coming home. I don't know if it's a blessing that we never considered the middle ground. It's where we live. And there is far more sickness than health. There are far more challenges than we could have anticipated. But I don't know that no one that I would have ever begun to understand until I actually had to stand in it and figure it out as you go.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy bets podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your host, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion Louis Celli. Today's guest Sarah vardo, CEO of the independence fund, and a veteran caregiver.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, and I've heard you say many times that it isn't just a service member who serves it's the whole family.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Lou, during my years when I was at VA, I think I've met with hundreds of wounded veterans and their families. And in fact, that's how I got to know our guests today. In that way, Sarah and her husband, Michael came to my office to tell me about how their family had been impacted by their injuries and by how the VA was treating them.
Louis Celli:It's amazing. I've literally worked with 1000s of veterans, and many are reluctant to advocate on their own behalf. But it always seems they always seem to step up when it comes to advocating on another veterans behalf.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, that's been my experience too low. I would speak to disabled veterans advocates who would tell me their stories, but it was always most powerful. When I would hear directly from families, I remember Lou, a mother came to see me in her office and her son, a veteran who had been injured, needed to be categorized in you know, where to goes up into the bladder, four times a day, yet, the VA would only give her 30 catheters a month, because that was the rule. And, you know, when I just would hear stories like that, that would help me in going back and changing the policies and really changing the way that VA operated, because there just shouldn't be any barriers to care like that.
Louis Celli:Now, you know, and interesting, you don't really hear that much about the caregivers, you know, that the family members whose, whose loved ones, their lives have been changed forever, when the wife or their husband or a son or daughter, father or mother come home, they're just not the same person as when they left?
Dr. David Shulkin:No, I think the entire family changes how they spend their time, but also the emotional impact the, you know, economic impact on families. So this is really a big deal when you think about the responsibility that we have as a country, to those who went and sacrificed.
Louis Celli:Now and considering, you know, the amount of time that the United States has has been engaged in armed conflict, the first time that caregivers started seeing any real national attention was until 2013. And that's when the RAND Corporation published their preliminary report, military caregivers, cornerstone of support for our nation's wounded, ill and injured veterans.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, we've come a long way since that report, but I agree with you. That's why it's so important that there are advocates out there studying these issues and talking about them. I took over a little bit about a year after that report was released when I was under Secretary for Health. And I remember the impact that that had, and I remember that became my introduction to Senator Elizabeth Dole, who just became my inspiration how she was out there, not waiting for the VA but starting her own foundation to assist military caregivers and she raised millions of dollars, but more importantly, she's trained and supported 1000s of caregivers now, and just affected so many people's lives.
Louis Celli:Now that that study was the foundation for a lot of different pieces of legislation. I remember working closely with Rand, when they were doing this research, and I was helping them locate military caregivers to interview you know, that's when I first met Terry to nelion, who, you know, who led that research and as you know, She now works at the White House is a special advisor for the President.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yellow Terry and her team did a really good job and that became the foundation for the legislation that we supported and ultimately got passed in signed into law to support our caregivers and really make the VA a model of support for Caregiving around the country.
Louis Celli:Almost a secretary, that's why I'm so glad that we have served rodder today as our guest. You know, reading a report is one thing. Let's face it, you know, only the people reading the only people reading the reports like this are policy wonks like us. But it's clearly another thing to hear this story from someone that walks the walk and walks through, you know, this stuff every day.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I agree Lou. So let's hear directly from her.
Sarah Verardo:Sarah, welcome to the policy vets podcast. Thank you for having me, Secretary shulkin. And Lou, it's an honor to be with you,
Louis Celli:Sarah. And you know, thank you so much for joining us today. But really, thank you for being one of our very first policy vets.
Sarah Verardo:It was such an honor to get that invitation from both of you really unexpected, but excited about the work that you continue to do and the advocates you both continue to be for so many people.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, Sarah, thank you, Sarah, you and I are friends now. But I remember the first time that I met you in my office, when I was secretary and I was thinking, I knew a little bit about your story and Michael's story. And I was thinking if I was in their shoes, I'd be so angry at the VA. And this is my chance to really give this guy a piece of my mind. And frankly, you would have been justified, but you didn't. And you and Michael calmly told me your story and the frustrations that you had with such calm and dignity. And that really helped me in understanding how we could do a better job of reforming the VA to make sure that people didn't experience what you and Michael had gone through. But can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your family?
Sarah Verardo:I would love to. I'm the proud wife and caregiver to a retired Army infantry man, he served in the 82nd airborne and loved every minute of it, until of course, is catastrophic combat injuries in April of 2010. So we're a decade plus removed from those injuries. And we have three little girls, our oldest just turned seven. And we live right outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. So
Louis Celli:sorry. I mean, so you hold down a full time job you're caring for for three adorable little girls. You know, you're a caregiver for your husband, you also work for an organization called the independence fund. So how did you become affiliated with them? I mean, did you see a job opening online and apply? or How did that work?
Sarah Verardo:No, my involvement with the independent spend was very organic, really early on during Mike's medical recovery initially recovered at Walter Reed, which of course, we know to be the absolute best chance that our nation's severely wounded have or getting better. And then because of his burns, he was transferred to Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio. And very early on, he heard about these track chairs, they were brand new. And just like all of the other guys were covering at Walter Reed. He desperately wanted one. And we got involved with this mission that had, at that point, just this desire to provide mobility devices to severely injured vets. And the mission has continued to grow. And I've been really blessed to be part of it since very early on post injury for Michael. Yes, sir. You
Dr. David Shulkin:just weren't part of it. Now you lead that effort. And you're helping veterans all across the country. So that's, that's amazing in its own right. But I want to go back if it's okay, a little bit to talk about you and Michael. like to hear a little bit about how you met when you were married, when you found out he was deploying? And what happened right after you learn that he was hurt and injured. What happened next.
Sarah Verardo:So Mike and I met when we were 14-15 years old, at a very small little school in Rhode Island. And we were there with our classmates, of course during the attacks of September 11. So you can do all the math on how old we are. And it was when the towers fell that he made a pact with two of his high school buddies, our high school buddies, and it was actually as far as high school pack, though not a bad one. They they all wanted to join together, bring the fight to the enemy keep terrorism off of our shores. And what's really remote remarkable, Mr. Secretary about Michael is that he had a pre existing condition that he had to have several painful surgeries to correct before he could enlist. And it's surprising and shocking, really, when you hear of course, what he's gone through, during and post service that he endured so much just to be able to join. So we decided to wait to get married until after he was medically retired. I didn't want the army telling us when when we could get married. But that was that was also just that the blessing During his initial injuries I found out about, actually from his mother, we weren't yet married at the time. And so she let me know, what was also really just made the situation even more difficult is that Michael had been injured the first time, April 10 2010, he was awarded his first Purple Heart, he was medically evacuated. And he was given the choice to go back to the United States to heal or to return to the fight with his unit. And he chose to go back to the fight. And on his very first foot patrol back in action, he was the eighth guy, they were taking a wall. And it was an old Russian landmine that the Taliban had connected to to 15 gallon jugs of homemade high explosive gameover imminent death status on the immediate loss of his left leg. Much of his left arm burns about 30 ish percent of his body and a brain injury, which I'm sure I'm sure we'll get into the invisible injury part. But that wasn't immediately clear how severe that would later become. And I just remember when I was finally going to be able to see him. He really wanted his mother to make sure that I understood the extent of his injury. And I would later learn Michael's very shy, he's, he's very humble. This wasn't a life he wanted for me and I, in looking back at it now, I think he knew before I did, how much longer and harder that whole road would be.
Louis Celli:Sarah, so for context, let's, let's put a marker in the conversation right now. So for our listeners, so how old is Michael today? And what's his activity level, say, as opposed to the guys he went to high school with? How does that compare?
Sarah Verardo:Sure. So we're both 36. And, Michael, we had we have three children. And but I was blessed to tell you a little bit about, we were able to have our children post injury, Michael's injuries early on, were very physically apparent if you were to meet him. And in some ways, he's lucky when we get into what it means to have to live with these catastrophic injuries and people people do take him for a service, they acknowledge and understand how difficult it can be. Although for us the most difficult injuries for Michael at this point are the ones you can't see. And that's, that's really his his severe traumatic brain injury. Michael sleeps a lot, it is very tiring for him to get up and do regular activities. Within the space, of course, we would know that to be activities of daily living, or his ideals, Michael feeds himself. And otherwise, for his day to day, hour to hour, he needs the help of a grown up to do both the executive functioning, and to get himself clean and ready. Understand what the weather might be like, prepare his food supervise. Michael does require help throughout the day.
Dr. David Shulkin:Sarah, I do want to talk a little bit more about Michael's condition so people can understand this. And I remember when you and I and Michael met my office, you talked to me about your experience in trying to get his, his prosthetic leg fixed, and the challenges you had with the VA. And I remember getting so visibly angry just hearing about that. And if it's okay, if you get angry telling us about it now, but could you tell our listeners about what your experience with the VA was in trying to get Michael the care that he needed?
Sarah Verardo:Absolutely. So we're both lifelong Rhode Islanders. Now, of course, we live in the south. But post injury, the hope was that Michael would be able to return to Rhode Island. And I was so excited and just really ready to have him home. It sounds naive now, but I thought he was going to get a prosthetic leg and get fixed up as best they could. And we'd be on our way and that life would be as normal as possible. And there were some very rough moments during that transition time. I'll never forget the kindness of a VA doctor who was actually at Fort dam, putting her hands on me and saying the most difficult part is yet to come. And all I could think was, oh my goodness, what now What else could be more difficult? And she said you're going to have to help him learn to survive surviving. And it that stays with me constantly. So we return to Rhode Island, and I called the Providence Rhode Island VA. And I thought, well, this is going to be easy. They'll get us in get him an appointment. And the VA had no information on Michael no ability to quickly get a man with a primary care physician. And during that time, we didn't have a home that was remotely accessible. So my dad and the fire department were at times helping me carry him in and out of the house. I was Just distraught. And then finally, after about seven weeks, I had gone on YouTube. And I learned how to pack my spoons myself because he had open wounds. And they finally told me we could get a primary care appointment, and his prosthetic leg broke. And I remember sharing the story, Secretary shulkin. And I remember how angry you were when I when I share the story about the clear failure. But we had a piece of paper, I guess it's probably known as a prosthetic repair card. And it's that on someone's desk for 57 days, I'll never forget that, waiting for signature, I mean, nothing else that waiting for a signature to authorize the repair or replacement. And we ended up meeting a great prosthetist in Rhode Island who finally said to heck with this, I'm going to do this and I don't care if VA pays me or not, I mean, which the process it felt I have, and I don't ever use a term like pts lightly. I have such anxiety. And I and I do go to a really traumatic place when I think back to that time, because I felt so ill equipped to handle it. I felt like I was failing him I was failing us, it was so much harder than I ever could have thought it would be just getting this very basic care.
Louis Celli:Sherif. Michael's dignity is is very important to us. So in this next question, I we really only invite you to answer you know the portions of it that you're most comfortable answering, but I want to read something to you and and I want you to tell me if this truly explains what your daily responsibilities are like with Mike. So according to Rand, they, they published published a report in 2013. I'm going to quote here, military caregivers perform a wide variety of roles and functions that are often complex and burdensome in part, because the number of the number and severity of wounds, illnesses or injuries, as they as they navigate the complex healthcare system. So in summary, you know, they're faced with providing health care and support to their loved ones coordinating care, navigating between and across complex bureaucracies, providing emotional support assistance with legal and financial planning and acting as advocates on behalf on behalf of those for whom they're caring. Does that does that really fully give our listeners a deep understanding of what it's like to be you?
Sarah Verardo:I don't know, Lou, that until someone is in this situation, they can begin to understand what it is like to be fully responsible for another adult to think for two people all of the time. And then of course, you add children into that mix, and trying to navigate a way that that does have the highest level of dignity for Mike. But also, of course, authentically sharing what this is really like. Now, there are 5.5 million military caregivers. So much good work has come out of the RAND study and the Elizabeth Dole Foundation, they're doing really incredible work on identifying what it means to be a caregiver. I would say within that caregiver space, I'm part of a pretty tiny population. And as you know, Secretary shulkin, from your time at VA and helping us through many hurdles, Mike actually qualifies for nursing home care, he lives at home. And but his condition is, is that extreme, that severe that he does need help both in a clinical environment, of course, and also with just getting through every every part of the day. So although I think that description, probably is the tip of the iceberg, I don't know that anyone can understand what it really means to hold your breath constantly, constantly wait for the next medical emergency to happen, or just the next emergency it truly being responsible for another adult in every facet is something that has changed for us over time as the injury has changed over time. But it is certainly the honor of my lifetime to take care of him. But I can't sit here and say it. It's not the most heartbreaking and difficult thing I've also ever been charged with.
Louis Celli:I just really want to run back to something you said that, according to the Dole Foundation is 5.5 million caregivers. You know, according to ranz estimates, there there are as many as 1 million Americans that have assumed or are currently assuming these multiple roles shouldering these burdens for for our most recent generation of veterans, often with little warning or recognition. But that doesn't even count our Vietnam or Korean Korean community.
Sarah Verardo:Absolutely. And those caregivers, they are so inspiring. They've been doing it for decades and decades it It always puts me in a situation where it's hard to to complain because our era of caregivers does have so much more support and and so much, so many more resources and awareness and education than the generations that have gone Before,
Dr. David Shulkin:Sarah, I want to bring us a little bit more up to date about the situation that you're currently facing and that other veterans and caregivers and Michael situation is currently facing. But just just to give our listeners a sense how many surgeries as Michael had now,
Sarah Verardo:he's had 120 surgeries post Afghanistan. He's the last surgery was in April of 2019. And he actually on his ninth alive day. pretty remarkable. Yeah, we did have future surgery scheduled, but Michael is not able to tolerate further surgeries. And so that was also a medical decision of the more surgery, the reward is not worth the risk.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah. Well, as incredible as that sounds, I hope that it gives people a sense about just some of the medical care that you and Michael have have undertaken. And we've talked about how the VA has, in the past, really let people down and, and you know, the bureaucratic nature of it. But I know that you've found a VA closer to where you are in North Carolina, where you've developed a good relationship with the leadership there. And can you talk a little bit about the changes that you've seen in the VA system over the past 10 years or so since you've been using it, and also about some of the changes that you've seen in support for caregivers, with the recent legislation that has tried to improve the programs, particularly for the post 2001 generation, the post 911 generation?
Sarah Verardo:Absolutely. So we're really blessed to be enrolled in the saulsbury. va. The medical care has been incredible. I keep 100% of Mike's medical care in VA, I know how important it is to have that brick and mortar structure, not only for morale, and for veterans to gather, but also because every medical interaction we've had at VA has always been the very best I could ever hope for where, where I still will stay in this, this will probably put my face on a dartboard. But what I will still say is prosthetic for us. And for those that we represented the independence fund for the casework we do. prosthetics is still where I think hope goes to die. And and I'll say that bluntly, you know, I'm an open book and an outspoken advocate for reform to certain systems. So the prosthetics process is still is still lacking. And there have been times where it's been a lot better. And I do remember, like, it was yesterday, sharing that story with you about what happened to us at the Providence, VA. And you demanded answers. I mean, you called medical center directors, and you wanted to understand other people's situations like this. And, and I know that you weren't happy with a lot of what you heard, which is why you did create so much reform to that process. It does, like many things at VA seem to vary wildly from medical center to Medical Center, even at times within the same visit. And when it comes specifically to prosthetics, I have gone through the process a lot, Mike has lost a lot of weight, not, not on purpose. And that's just where we are health wise right now. And he he needs a new socket. And so I called in February, I called our prosthetics department. And I think he received the socket. We're mid July right now about a week or two ago. And and that was probably expedited, as expedited as it can be when you are dealing with a system that is clunky. The rest of VA, though, has been very supportive and helpful. I think there's been morale change in some ways. among employees. There's a deep desire, of course, I see it with every interaction I have with those that work at VA. They're there because they have a servant's heart or caring for those who have worn the uniform. And in many cases, they've worn the uniform themselves, and they know and they know the level of excellence they want to provide. So we'd really I'd love to see we'd love to see as an organization and I know a lot of my caregiving your stand with me and as we'd like to see national consistency to some of these systems that are really difficult to navigate if you do have to move or change hospitals or you're even dealing with maybe a different Caregiver Support Coordinator one day, streamlining that would take lives that have we have no margin and I caregiving life that's so full and just make it a little bit easier. Hey, real
Louis Celli:quick. Didn't one of your daughters just have a birthday?
Sarah Verardo:She did too. But why have two July birthdays? Yeah. Good July.
Louis Celli:I want to I want to ask you a question about a conversation we had last week and if you don't want this aired, we will we will cut this out. share with us what happened when you know when you called and in spoke to Michael and prompted him to wish his daughter Happy birthday.
Sarah Verardo:So Michael is he's always been the most selfless person I've ever known. That goes back to our high school days, he did all my biology dissections for me. I mean, he's always just been a very, very good man and a man of deep faith. It's heartbreaking to see the dad he has to be now because of his injury because I know it's not the dad, he'd want to be. I, we've had so many changes medically, in the last several years. And it It feels like a different lifetime than when we did welcome our children, particularly our first daughter seven years ago. Because although of course, he had a prosthetic leg and a lot of medical issues, even back then, there was this deep hope for our future and how normal which is a silly word, but how normal it would be. And so even as recently, as our oldest daughter turned seven, and we, I had taken the girls back home to visit my family in Rhode Island, and just calling Michael because, of course, he's not really following the date and doesn't know that it's his daughter's birthday. And my daughter is at an age where she will ask me a million times if, if her dad has called. And we talk a lot about that having a sleepy brain and doing the best he can. But he hadn't called and so I facetimed him and I said, Hi dad, we have a birthday. And he said, it's your birthday. And he was so excited about it. And I said no, it did his birthday. And there's there's just really no awareness that I know there would be there wasn't such a severe brain injury, to celebrate and and run this family. together. It's certainly not what we planned or hoped for.
Louis Celli:If, if you could hold a seminar, and in the audience, it was composed of you know, military spouses and caregivers and family members and military members, and it was prior to them deploying. And, you know, they all came back suffering a variety of related illnesses. What would you say to them? What advice would you give them, to prepare them for what they're about to go through?
Sarah Verardo:No, I don't know that you can be prepared for it. I know that when Michael deployed, he had two scenarios and head he was going to war and coming home or going to war or not coming home. I don't know if it's a blessing that we never considered the middle ground. It's where we live. And there is far more sickness and health, there are far more challenges than we could have anticipated. But I don't know that no one that I would have ever begin began to understand until I actually had to stand in it and figure it out as you go. Because people can say there's no Handbook, there is no handbook. There's plenty of great resources, but it's figuring out, how do you access them? What makes sense for my family? Is this the best we can hope for and I know several years back things, things felt like they took a pretty sharp turn for us, I would say, three and a half or so years ago. And I think that at that point, I didn't I just kept praying, he'd get better, he'd get better, he'd get better. And now I just pray, please let him stay how he is please let him stay how he is I know. There's no hope for medical improvement for Michael Michael reached the term maximum medical improvement. years ago, I do understand that. And so the best we hope for is maintenance. I don't, I wouldn't change a thing. In some ways, though. I'm so glad that I had that hope that I maybe it was misplaced. Maybe it was misguided about how life could be.
Dr. David Shulkin:It's just amazing listening to knowing you as we do that, not only with everything that you go through to keep your family together and to support my goal and take care of him that you're out there all the time advocating for others and in the independence fun helping others that need help and always being there to speak up on behalf of families and caregivers and other veterans. One of the things that we've gotten to know about you, you developed a special relationship with the ambassador to Afghanistan. And I just wondered whether you would talk about how that relationship developed and what that's meant to you.
Sarah Verardo:Afghanistan is something that for those of us that have family members, loved ones that served in Afghanistan. It's deeply personal. I don't know that I that I can do it justice. I'm not a veteran. I've never worn our nation's uniform. The best I can do is try to provide that care to my husband who has and that's my own way to serve. We got connected originally With the Embassy of Afghanistan, gosh, probably three or maybe four years ago now, even longer. And I didn't know much about Afghanistan, I knew that it was where Michael loft I knew that parts of him forever be there. He was haunted by some of the experiences. But in some ways, I think he would also tell you, they were the best days of his life. He was with his brothers, his body's doing what he felt like he was born and meant to do. And so that relationship with the embassy provided a lot of closure for me on what we were doing there, the people of Afghanistan, why we did make a difference, so much more, of course, than the most important reason to keep that terrorism off our shores. And so as the relationship in Afghanistan has changed, Ambassador roya Romani, she has recently vacated her post, but she was there for the last several years. And I realized how healing it was for my family, to hear from her about the progress in Afghanistan, and to hear what we're doing in Afghanistan, and why Afghanistan matters, and why our American soldiers matter to the people of Afghanistan. And she provided that and she's continued to provide that to independence fund veterans, when we reunite them for suicide prevention. She joins us and she speaks about the progress made in Afghanistan. She has been a living testament to that the first female Ambassador Afghanistan to us. Really incredible role model.
Louis Celli:Sir, that's an excellent point. Do you feel do you do you think that the average American gets it? Do they understand?
Sarah Verardo:I don't think the average American can begin to understand and in some ways, I'm glad for them that they don't, right. It's a, it is a calling that you take to put on our nation's uniform. And what's happening right now in Afghanistan, I find myself refreshing the news constantly looking for updates about Afghanistan, and what's happening there. And, you know, will Afghanistan stand on its own? And what does that mean? every veteran feels very differently. And I and I know the studies show the majority of veterans have long felt that we needed to, and the endless war in Afghanistan, my husband felt differently. And I really can't speak for how he feels now, because it's not a conversation we've had in recent years. But I know that even two or so years ago, he wanted to continue the mission, he would do it all over again, in a heartbeat. The men that he loved so much, took their final breaths there, it had to matter to him, he wanted to see mission success. And it's very, very personal to see is our lives, these precious lives that sacrificed so much in Afghanistan. What happens to that now? And people have asked me over and over again recently, was it worth it? I can't begin to answer that question. And I think it would probably have to vary again by day because my husband believes his fight in Afghanistan was worth it. And I hope that it did contribute to keeping terrorism off of our shores. Was it worth it for me? for caring for him? Now? It's an honor. Was it worth it for my children? I don't know. And I think that they're going to have to grow up living with the consequences of a war that they'd never ever volunteered to sign up for. But very proud of the fact that they're dead dead.
Louis Celli:Sure, that's, that, that's hard. You know, it's hard. It's gonna be hard for people to hear. And I'm sure it's, it's even more hard, you know, for you to have to navigate. So, we are we are at that point in the podcast that I get the most criticism about. And that's the point where I have to say that we're, we're out of time for today. I just I really want to thank you, you know, for sharing your story. It's been, it's been hard, you know, to to sit here and navigate through that with you. And it was an extremely brave thing for you to agree to share with us today, especially considering your extremely public profile.
Sarah Verardo:Well, Lou, thank you. I know we're running out of time. And Secretary shulkin of course, thank you. I in recent years, I have I've done I've done a lot of media sharing why I think this legislation should be passed or why I feel a certain way about policy. I very rarely speak so candidly about, and I don't think I have spoken really this carefully about what goes on in our home because most people just don't want to know it's something that they can't live with. They can't bear to understand that many people, many caregivers, many veterans who have suffered catastrophic or life changing visible and invisible injuries are living with that for long after they come home from the battlefield.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, Sarah, thanks again. And our Our thoughts are with you every day and please give our best to your family and to Michael, thank you so much.
Louis Celli:Hey, that's all the time that we have for today. But Join us next week when we have a very special guest. We have the former ambassador to the United States from Afghanistan. She recently left her post. Tune in next week to find out why.
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