Zia Ghafoori is a former Afghan interpreter who served with the US Army Special Forces for 14 years. The Taliban abused his family and the war ended high school when he decided to fight for his country by supporting the United States as an interpreter. Ghafoori earned a Purple Heart and is now a US citizen advocating for other Afghan workers who stood shoulder to shoulder in Afghanistan.
Zia Ghafoori is a former Afghan interpreter who served with the US Army Special Forces for 14 years. The Taliban abused his family and the war ended high school when he decided to fight for his country by supporting the United States as an interpreter. Ghafoori earned a Purple Heart and is now a US citizen advocating for other Afghan workers who stood shoulder to shoulder in Afghanistan.
Those people are very excited to be here. And they love they heard a lot of good things about the United States. And they love to be here. When they are coming over here, they don't know anything. They don't know about the culture. They don't know about anything going on in this country. So I request from every single citizen to help all these people. These people are the one like, fought shoulder to shoulder with the US Army and US Army Special Forces for the freedom of both country. So they are good people. They should feel free if they are in their neighborhood. They will love these people. We will love these things.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy beds podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your hosts, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion, Louis Celli, to those guests ziggu for an Afghan interpreter who supported the United States.
Dr. David Shulkin:Lou, I thought we were going to interview Ambassador Romani today.
Louis Celli:I know I had to postpone her interview, Mr. Secretary, why what happened? Ambassador Romani agreed to do the interview and would have joined us today. But while we were doing the pre interview and the sound checks, we started talking about her situation. And it's not my place to share any specifics except to say that, you know, there were some things that needed to be worked out before it would be advisable for her to speak publicly.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, listen, I think that makes sense. We certainly don't ever want to put anybody in a position where they might be uncomfortable speaking about what's going on. And given everything that's going on with Afghanistan today in the unstable situation, who knows, but I can certainly understand her wanting to be cautious
Louis Celli:now. And she knows that she's welcome to join us whenever she's ready. She's committed to doing that. As a matter of fact, she's not giving any interviews of any kind. And she's been asked, you know, by by many of the stations, well, I
Dr. David Shulkin:know that you and I really care a lot about what's happening over and Afghanistan and care about getting the interpreters over here and making sure that they're safe. And you and I recently had a chance to talk directly to the president of Afghanistan, in Washington. And so we wanted to focus the podcast on that topic today. So I'm really glad that we were able to, instead talk to a person who knows a lot about the subject of real Afghan interpreter.
Louis Celli:Absolutely. And, you know, an actually, it was our media manager, Danica, who bailed us out on this and was able to put this together and invite him.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, she's amazing. And that doesn't surprise me. So we're going to talk to Zia savoury, who was an interpreter with the US Army for 14 years in Afghanistan. He was assigned to the special forces unit, and he goes by the name, Booyah. And he started a non for profit foundation to help other interpreters called the interpreting Freedom Foundation. And he's been extremely active on this issue, and nobody knows a better. So really looking forward to talking to him.
Louis Celli:I know, I was able to watch some coverage about him, and he's been busy. Yeah, he's a he's
Dr. David Shulkin:a pretty smart guy. I understand. He speaks five languages. I can barely speak English. And this guy speaks five languages and does it under really intense situations like combat. So we want to talk to him about what his feelings are about what's going on there and mostly about what it was like to be interpreter and why it's important that we make sure that they're safe and their families are safe.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, I couldn't agree more. So let's get them in here and get started. Welcome to the policy. That's podcasting. Hey, thank you so much for joining us in such short notice, and by the way, it can call you boy. Yes, sir.
Dr. David Shulkin:Okay, well, boy, yeah. Thanks so much. And for everyone who's listening in today, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself?
Zia Ghafoori:Is there my name is Zachary is alhaja 40. And my nationality is Afghanistan. And I was interpreter, US Army Special Forces for 14 years. So I have been worked like 14 years or the US Army Special Forces back in Afghanistan. And we have been, I have been in all kinds of high value targets down there. When you're going to the mission so it has been like seven years that I'm in the United States.
Louis Celli:So, so boy, wait, first of all, how did you get the name? The nickname bullion when you were serving with the army? Shouldn't it have been Hello?
Zia Ghafoori:That was like when I first came to the third group. So I told my teammate like my name is Xia, Xia puri. So they told me like, we have to Xia here. So we have to change you guys name because we need to call you guys by other nicknames. So I told him like, okay, that's everything is okay with you guys. So they told me they put my name buya. So I got the name from my teammates with a nickname.
Dr. David Shulkin:Okay, well, fortunately, we only have one Zia with us here today. So I'm going to, I'm going to use your proper names. Yeah. And so I think that most people who are listening today have heard a lot about the issue of the Afghan interpreters, the people that have worked so closely with the US forces, and are very concerned about getting them over here and making sure that they're safe. But can you tell us a little bit about the way that after 14 years, you and your family felt after serving with the US military, whether you felt that your life was in danger? Or whether there were any threats to your family? And is that what led you to applying to come to the United States when you left?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes, sir. Unfortunately, in these days, the situation of Afghanistan, as you guys know, build and everyone else is getting worse and worse. So when I was working with the US Army Special Forces, I was getting trade, later, at night later, every single month or two months, they will doing an idolater like the tree training as like, don't work with the United States Army, leave your job, otherwise, we're gonna kill you and kill your family. So I was not thinking about myself because I was in frontline anyway. And I was fighting face to face with them. But the when I they brought my family in the middle, so they took like my weakness point. So from there, when I look at my kids, I said I have to leave this country. But I didn't give up in 2008 and 910 and 1112. I said, No, probably it will, we will have a piece. And we have a best army over here, best technology over here, like from all around the world, like 45 countries. So we will furnish all this kind of groups as a small group, so they cannot fight against us. So they will they couldn't fight against us. Anyway, we knew that. And you're in the frontline. But when we receive those kinds of trade, from the Taliban and Al Qaeda, so I told the plan to leave the country before they kill me or kill my children. But I was not thinking that much about myself. As I mentioned, like I was thinking about my children or my wife, my family. Before I applied for a visa that took me like six years to get my visa, it was a long process. And if you were interpreters, or you were any kind of workers in the United States military base, or you would have if they were cleaning over there, or they were doing laundry, but still they were working for the United States and for foreign auto, their life is in danger. Every single minute, they're not letting those people be safe.
Louis Celli:Right. So let me ask you, you know, for our listeners, how old were you when you when you first joined up with the US Armed Forces and what made you volunteer to serve
Zia Ghafoori:when I was a child, so that was like my first thing I saw, like Taliban group occupied Afghanistan. So that was like my first like, time I see like a different people in this country. So they were beating male, female, like, children on the street. They didn't have like any kindness on anyone. And especially the beat my brother. Inside the couple city, they beat my mom. So that that made me so like I was in third grade. So I remember when I was in third grade. So my father, and my mom told us we need to leave this country before any of our children get killed by this and felt. So we left the country. And but I had the plan to one day I can, I will join the military, and I will fight against them. But I didn't know what the United States will be there. And I will join the United States and fight against them. And that was my dream and dream. My dream come true when the United States came in 2001.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Zia. I think that a lot of people who now live in the United States, like yourself have a similar history, our families started in different countries and because of persecution, and because of conflict, ended up coming to America for a better life. So I'm sure we have many people who can relate to your story. And of course, it's never necessarily an easy story. You fought alongside the Americans for 14 years. And I understand that you were injured when you were serving. Can you tell us a little bit about that injury and how that happened?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes, sir. I, as you said, most of the guys have the same history because of their family and stuff. But in 2008, April 2018, shark Valley, we had a mission to capture and kill the third guy, author of summer. So that was a high value target. So we went there to complete the mission. But unfortunately, we got surrounded by 200 enemies. That was all hate people. And there was al Qaeda and Taliban everybody was like, so we were founded my teammate. podiatry, 3366 to seven member of our teammates got serious wounded. And we had one again, commando squad leader. He got killed. And one of my best friend CJ, he was interpreter. And he was not even a foot far from me. We were in the second assaulting. So he got killed by sniper right away in the first bullet hate him. Then after that, my captain he's a colonel right now we all that time he was a captain scatec our Walton he was What does so he was talking about the plane to drop bomb. While me and blade one have another interpreter that he loves in California right now. Me and him. We're carrying our teammates from the kill zone to the agency, including our best friend Seagate. The body. So
Dr. David Shulkin:Zia, just so I understand when you're an interpreter, it sounds like you're really almost right next to the, to the soldiers and, and the people that are carrying out the fight. Are you also carrying weapons? And do you have armor on you to protect you? Or do you generally try to stay a little bit further back from where the direct action is?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes, sir. We I, we had weapons, we had everything. And you were going to training everything that our teammate was known, because without those training icon, unable to complete the mission, so we were doing fast through from the Blackhawk. So we supposed to learn it before we go to the target. When we will go into the target. Our teammate couldn't speak the language with those people that they weren't targeting. So we were the one like going first inside the target to clear it and tell our teammates to get the people out and handcuff them. And we will also advising interpreting and we will showing them the train which way that we need to take plus we were finding like a soldier because we were in the middle of the firefight. So we couldn't able even if you back up a stand you have you will get shot from somewhere. So we had weapons and we were fighting like a polio. Like we we wouldn't consider ourselves like an interpreter or anything else like the same like as a team like a brother.
Louis Celli:Right? So when you were injured, you received a Purple Heart Did you not?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes When when me and labor carrying our teammates. So they will shooting at us with an RPG to finish us that we couldn't carry our teammates down to the agency. So the rocket head next to us, and the blast hate me and hate me to the valley. And we went all the way to the valley and I when I opened my eyes, I was in Bagram Airfield in Bagram base. So for a minute or so I couldn't remember what happened after that. Then after a minute, I remember like I wasn't the mission. When I look at my left and right, my teammates, and my other interpreters, my friend, he was also got injured develop Purple Heart, and me and ck was there and see the ball, he was there to that knee and blow to talk into their home.
Dr. David Shulkin:Right. Zia. I know, you understand just how complex the situation is in Afghanistan. And I don't mean this as a political question. But you know, you, you've spent your life there, and you put your life on the line. So how did you feel when you heard that the US is going to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan and what what's your What's your feeling about what that decision means for your country?
Zia Ghafoori:The first thing, when I got very disappointed, because we give a lot of sacrifice for both countries. So if the United States Army or any other units that they have been working there, Afghanistan, we have been lost a lot of our best friends that they were in Special Forces, US, US Army Special Forces. So their families living without their father, they are living without their mom. And same thing, Afghans that they will they're fighting, the same thing happened with them. When I look at it that way, with all those sacrifices that we have given, that was for nothing. That was like not mean, meant to us to anyone that leave back to those people that they attacked in line 11. So the that country will be the headquarter of Taliban and Al Qaeda in the future, if we live in like this. So it's gonna be a big trade for all over the world. And they that's what they want. They want. And that's what they wanted before, too. So they're trying to make, like the headquarter down there. But with all this, what happened in these days, that's completely disappointed for everyone for our gains, and for the United States Army.
Louis Celli:Yeah, so so that's actually my next questions. Yeah. Are you still in touch with some friends there? And how, what are they? How are they feeling? What are they thinking about this?
Zia Ghafoori:I have been at contact with the Afghan springs that they are in Afghanistan, and also with the US military friends that I have here. So the everybody's disappointed, they said, We fought over there, we took a bullet for both countries. And we brought these in, he stayed in Afghanistan. And today, we left them back to them. And like everybody's disappointed from this, like everyone, and now in Afghanistan, everyone is like leaving the country. Every single innocent people are dying. Why those 45 countries scientists at the bone compounds, so when they sign it to finish on either and tanima. But today, we hand over back to them. So that's that's not like, I don't know what to say.
Louis Celli:So So what are you doing now? I understand that you're you're currently you know, an activist on on this topic. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now.
Zia Ghafoori:I am founder and CEO for interpreting pm foundation. So it's a 501 c three organization that we started in 2018 that most of when I arrived in the United States, and I dropped off from the plane as airy go, this is the country and welcome. So I didn't know where to go buy a grocery. I didn't know where to go get a job. Where to get my documents, my ID like my license, my Social Security, nothing at all. So even I they put me in a homeless shelter. And a homeless shelter. That's like, I just arrived. I didn't know what homeless shelters is. I didn't know what does that mean? They took me there. And one of my other buddy barrows moment. blades. His wife got miscarriage in the public park, because they didn't have a place to live. Because we left everything behind. We couldn't bring our whole life that we have made in Afghanistan, we lifted, we couldn't bring our money, we couldn't sell our property, we couldn't bring our car. We couldn't sell it at all. We just took our clothes and came to United States. And there was no one to help us out. So we all got together. And we came with this decision to open a nonprofit organization, that we could help all these interpreters that you're coming to United States, and settle them, show them and teach in the culture of the United States, and teach them the language for their kids and their families that they are loving here.
Dr. David Shulkin:Now, Xia, I understand that this has been a very difficult transition for you and your family. But that you still are receiving death threats from Afghanistan. Is that is that what's going on now?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes, sir, every single time that I'm talking on a TV, or I have any interview with the TVs, I can track it, I can see like every single person's writing over there. And I have like a lot of screenshots from those trade that I receive from social media, that if you come to Afghanistan, if we catch you, anywhere, we're going to kill you and kill your family. So that's how we got to get through like every single day. You
Louis Celli:have the king hard, you know, for the US to relocate the Afghan interpreters, you know, out of Afghanistan, and I'm sure you've been tracking President Biden's recent announcement to bring 1000s of Afghan citizens to the United States. Can you tell us what you know about that?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes, sir. They, President Biden. Trying to, as I heard, is going to bring like 3000 families to the virginia tech company, and military base. But there's 15,000 more Afghans allies, or United States allies, that they used to work with them, and their life in danger. The Taliban announced like a month ago, if anyone work one day with the United States, that should be it should be get killed, should be get killed, and take a video of them and put them in the video. That's what they say. So there is a 15,000 more Afghans that they left behind. And they are begging every single night and they probably I will take two hours or three hours nap. Then at night, I'm working, I'm listening to their phone call. And I'm reading their messages and applying back to them. But they're in really bad situation. That's why I'm trying to I don't want them to feel hopeless.
Louis Celli:Right. So you're in touch with, with Afghan citizens that are not slated to be secured and brought over here. Are you in touch with anyone that's been notified that they have been slated to be brought over?
Zia Ghafoori:I can tell that, but definitely there will be. I cannot say they will not the people of those people are taking this advantage. These kind of people among entrepreneurs or put a bad name on these people?
Louis Celli:No, that's a really good point. And as we talked about, before we started recording, I just want to reiterate that if we touch on any subject whatsoever that you feel is going to put anyone in danger, please, you know, use prudence and and use your best discretion. And we and our listeners will absolutely understand.
Dr. David Shulkin:See, I do want to I do want to get your thoughts about what you think is likely to happen with the US withdrawal. Do you you know the US has spent a lot of time training the Afghan army and have provided them with equipment. Do you have any hope that they'll be able to keep the Taliban from coming into Kabul and taking over the government? Or do you feel like it's gonna be very, very hard to keep the entire country from being under the control of the Taliban eventually?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes, sir. At first, that was not the time for the US and for not to leave them right now. Because they didn't have in God that train that they supposed to get. They don't have those equipment that they supposed to get it. But they haven't understood they are not receiving the bullets and rounds and the front line when the soldiers are fighting. They're fighting without like With two, three times four magazine, I guess the Solomon, then when they are finished, there is no supplies for them to provide those aimo that they could able to fight against them. If the United States or other other countries don't support him, and then a week, they will take over Afghanistan, because that's not just Taliban from that country. These elements are, as I have been worked, and I have the experience of the way that I was there. They are coming from different different countries, not just Afghanistan. There's a lot of other countries involved in this one.
Louis Celli:Yeah, boy, you said, that's a really good point. So what's the message that you've been trying to convince lawmakers now and how has happened, how's that message changed in light of the US withdrawal, you know, subsequent decisions to bring the interpreters back to the United States or to the United States? What's your message to lawmakers now?
Zia Ghafoori:I guess, have a message to all our lawmaker, I respect every single individual that they work there, therefore, the UN our national security, and we appreciate that what they are doing. But if they leave these people behind, it will be very bad for our future. Like for, especially for our military, if they deployed to any other country in the future, nobody will trust Him, they will lose the trust. The people will never ever press the United States in the future. Because we promise them, anyone work with the United States, we're gonna take him out. If we break these promises, so nobody will trust us again, in the future. And it will create a problem for our military men and woman that they are working hard and securing this country. So they put in their life in danger. And they don't pay attention deeply in this equation.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yes, z. I think almost everybody understands that. And I know that the vast majority of Americans are really sharing your concern about not only what happens to Afghanistan, but that people are willing to help us in future times that we need help. So I think you're right, this is a big, big issue that people are really caring a lot about. So thank you for your advocacy on this. And thank you for continuing to fight for this issue. I wanted to ask you a little bit about what your experience has been like, since you've been in America and your family's here. It must be very different, where, you know, people from different religions all live together. People have very different perspectives on the way that they view different aspects of life. Have you found it difficult to adjust to the American lifestyle? Or? Or have you found it to be something that you now feel very American yourself?
Zia Ghafoori:So that's this really good question, sir. Yes, definitely. When I got to the United States, I saw every single people from different color, different religion. So we feel like my family especially feel really free. And they were very happy when they got here. So for me, because I have lived my life at 14 years, I have been working with United States. So I was already Americanized, that before that I get the United States. So I was in 11th grade when I joined the US Army Special Forces. But my for my kids and my wife, they were like so happy because they saw everybody that they are, if someone goes to the church, they can go let someone go to the mosque, they can go, they can go to the Buddhism, like they can go like anywhere that they can want. That's free. That's the land of opportunity. So we really like this country. And this is our country now. So yeah, I don't feel like anything. any different.
Louis Celli:And just to be clear, you actually are a US citizen now. Is that correct?
Zia Ghafoori:Yes, sir.
Louis Celli:Congratulations.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, you certainly deserve it. You know, I think that there are few people sacrificed as much as you and your family, certainly so many American families have, as well, so many have given the ultimate sacrifice. But, but, but you certainly were delighted that you're an American citizen now. So congratulations. Thank you appreciate.
Louis Celli:So born in the United States is is getting ready to accept in 1000s of Afghan refugees? What is it you want the American people to know about your country, then you're the people that are coming here that are looking to start a new life what what advice would you give to the potential neighbors of of these, these new citizens?
Zia Ghafoori:So, first of all, those people are very excited to be here. And they love they heard a lot of good things about the United States. And they love to be here. When they are coming over here. They don't know anything. They don't know about the culture. They don't know about anything going on in this country. So I request from every single citizen to help all these people. These people are the one like, fought shoulder to shoulder with the US Army, and US Army Special Forces for the freedom of both country. So they are good people, they should feel free. If they are in their neighborhood. They will love these people, they will love these families.
Dr. David Shulkin:Right, great. Well, thank you so much Xia for spending time with us and for continuing to advocate and fight and remind us all why this is such an important issue. And over the next several weeks, I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about the issue of Afghan interpreters, and, frankly, the whole situation in Afghanistan. And the more that we learn and get educated from people like you, the better we are. Thank you so appreciated for your time to be here with us and asking.
Louis Celli:And, and boy, you're once again, thank you so much for joining us on such short notice. We really appreciate you dropping everything to be with us and our listeners appreciate it too. So you know with that, that is all the time that we have for today. So again, I just want to thank you for being with us. Thank you, thank you is appreciated for inviting me. Well, that is all the time that we have for today. You are not going to want to miss next week's episode when we talk about how to participate in a $680 billion industry. Miss Barbara Ash is coming to talk to us about the program that she puts on that teaches veterans how to sell to the government. This is going to be an important podcast. And you're also going to want to hear whether she's going to be opening this program up to non veterans in the near future. Join us next week.
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