Sherman Gillums joins Secretary Shulkin and Lou Celli to talk about Veteran Service Organizations (VSO's) and what they need to do in order to ensure veterans continue to have a voice. Sherman has served as a veteran, VSO Executive, and now as an advocate.
Sherman Gillums joins Secretary Shulkin and Lou Celli to talk about Veteran Service Organizations (VSO's) and what they need to do in order to ensure veterans continue to have a voice. Sherman has served as a veteran, VSO Executive, and now as an advocate.
VSOs may be a little out of touch, you know, women make up a larger portion of the vs of the of the veteran community. And it should proportionately show up in the numbers in the VSO space. But it does it when you go to a, you know, a big six meeting and every leader looks the same. There's a problem. There's no representation there and people who would be a client that join something like that have to see themselves in that space or they're not going to join it.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy bets podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your hosts, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion Louis Celli. Today's guests. Sherman Gilliam's Sherman is the former executive director of the Paralyzed Veterans of America and the Chief Strategy and advocacy officer for m vets. He is currently a veterans advocate.
Dr. David Shulkin:Blue How long were you in the American Legion?
Louis Celli:10 years, Mr. Secretary.
Dr. David Shulkin:In that time, I bet you saw a lot of change.
Louis Celli:I did. You know, some was good. In my opinion, some wasn't as good as it could have been, you know, during all your time at VA, how did you think about your relationship with the VSOs?
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, you know, you have to remember I was the only secretary who was not a veteran. And I really took that seriously, I understood that it was my job to represent the 20 million American veterans in this country. And I had never been in that role. I didn't understand I hadn't lived it so that the VSOs, for me were absolutely critical to everything I did, because I wanted to understand and represent the perspective of the veteran. So Frankly, I couldn't have done almost anything successfully without my relationship with the VSOs. And in fact, I'm so grateful to the VSO community that now I actually serve as the Chairman of the Board of one of them the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America and continue to help support them in their fight, make the lives of veterans better?
Louis Celli:Well, you bring up a really good point. And and that is that the you know, the VSOs can certainly have a powerful voice, especially when they band together, you know, but separately, it's hard for policymakers to know who to listen to and and what veterans really want, as opposed to the protestations of just a small DC contingent.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I always felt that the VSOs did a very good job of making sure that their points were understood by Congress, they would often testify it most of the hearings that we had. I actually thought though, that the congressional testimonies were so important, they often weren't heard. First, you would hear from the panel that usually I would sit on where it was the secretary or the representatives of the VA giving their comments, then there would be a break. And then there would be a second panel of the VSOs. In my opinion, we should have reversed it, the VSOs should have gone first, because you put the veterans first, this is a Congress, this is a VA that should be responding to the voices of the veterans. And all too often the cameras would leave after I would stop testifying. And I feel like saying no, you're about to hear the most important part. So I hope that they actually begin to reverse the order and let the veterans testify first,
Louis Celli:I think that's an excellent point. We've we've always felt that way. You know, I can tell you from my experience, and granted now it's it's been compounded by the pandemic. But VSOs as a group are struggling for relevancy. And, you know, which is why I'm so glad that our next guest is with us today, you know, to talk about his time and experience in the advocacy community.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I have to tell you, I'm excited to talk to Sherman gums. He's, he's a unique person in the veteran advocacy community. I have to tell you, Lou, when I first met Sherman, I had just become Undersecretary. And he called me he was the head of the Paralyzed Veterans of America, the executive director, and they had held a conference every year in Florida to train the people in charge of the rehabilitation programs in the VA about how to be sensitive to the needs of veterans with spinal cord paralysis. And of course, if you don't know Sherman was injured during his time of service and has a spinal cord injury. So he's in a wheelchair. And the VA at the time had refused to send Anybody to the conference where the PVA was going to tell them what they needed to hear. So he called me and I said, Well, that doesn't make sense. Of course, we need to be there. And I authorized travel for all of our heads of our rehabilitation centers. And we get to the meeting, and Sherman opens up the meeting and I thought, I'm brand new, he's going to be nice to me, he's going to thank me for authorizing travel so that we could be there to hear him I was there, personally, to be part of this conference. And Sherman got up and gave the most honest, brutal description of the problems in the VA and attacked the leadership of the VA for being responsible for this. And he was so direct, and so well spoken. But frankly, you could hear his anger that when he was done, he just wheeled out of the auditorium and left for the day. He was he left it on the court, and I thought, wow, this is my introduction to Sherman gums into the VSO community. But you know, that was the gift that Sherman gave he, he didn't do politics, he he sat there always as an advocate, and he wasn't afraid to tell you when there was a problem. And I began to rely on him as a person who would tell it like it was if we were doing it right if we were doing it wrong. And that's exactly what I needed. So I am, I am really your to talk to him today.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, you could not have introduced Sherman kilims. Any better I almost want to stop here. I just want to let people know, though that, you know, as you said, he was the executive director for Paralyzed Veterans of America. And after that, he went to American Veterans he left and that's last year to become the chief strategy and Operations Officer of Nami, the National Alliance of mental health.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, the only the only other thing I would say, Lou about Sherman is is that, you know, while he, you know, is now working for Nami, this guy doesn't stop when it comes to advocating on Veterans issues, he continues to say it like it is. And the way that I know that is is that my wife follows Sherman on Facebook. And almost every day, she comes running up to me with her phone, saying, you have to see what Sherman said about this issue or, or Sherman's interview on this. And he just he continues to be relevant, he continues to be a voice that is willing to speak out for those who don't have the voice. And I know he's continuing to make an influence.
Louis Celli:Now, I couldn't agree more. Sherman is a great follow. He he just recently gave a speech for the opening of the annual conference for for nanny. And it was riveting. I enjoyed it a lot. So hey, let's get him in here. And and start talking to him about policy. That's good. Looking
Dr. David Shulkin:forward to it.
Louis Celli:Chairman welcome. And, you know, thank you for for joining us on the podcast today. But most importantly, thank you for being one of our policy that scholars.
Sherman Gillums:I appreciate that. Lou, it's always a pleasure to do any kind of work with you. And Secretary, we've gotten a lot done over the past few years. And there's a lot more that needs to be done.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, thank you, Sherman. It's great to be with you again. And, you know, we have had a chance to work together over the past number of years. But for our listeners, would you mind just telling us a little bit about your military service and really what's happened in terms of your career and your advocacy after you left the military and being involved in the veteran community over the past number of years.
Sherman Gillums:Mr. Secretary, this has been a great journey I've been on for the last I'd say 20 years, I started my military journey back in 1990. I joined the Marine Corps at 17. And just get out of Buffalo wanted to go see the world and I served 12 years before I was injured while serving stateside and I'll be honest with you, I never saw myself becoming a veteran advocate and and probably looking back on it, though, it was what I was meant to do. Because it was through the work of an advocate through the just know what it felt like to have people support you and give you a voice that became part of my identity and my purpose later on. And I think much of the work that I've done since that time since I got out of the Marine Corps was informed by my experience as somebody who needed to get help getting out of the hole. And I started with Paralyzed Veterans America became the executive director of that organization, which is what I met you and Lou went on to work for American amvets American Veterans is learning. And and I continue that work in the not just in the veteran space but in mental illness. So it's been a good, good. Two decades of advocacy.
Louis Celli:Yeah, Sherman, you and I have known each other a while. And we were both executive directors of veteran service organizations in a group known as the big six in our community. Can you tell us what that means?
Sherman Gillums:Well, the big six, it's sometimes it's a little bit difficult, because it depends on who you ask. But it's generally the venerable service organizations that started around World War Two, for the most part, I think maybe one or two of them started around the world war one era. But it was those organizations that stood up at a time when veterans were honored when they were all fighting, but not a lot was happening when they came back home. So back in those days, they became a powerful, basically an advocacy advocacy group, a lobby, to get a lot of laws passed that we still benefit from today. And they're generally the ones that have been around since that time.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah. So Sherman, I just have to ask you, now that now that we can both speak more freely when I was, first, the Undersecretary for health, and then later, when I was the secretary of the VA, it was part of my responsibility to meet on a regular basis with the big six leadership, we'd have breakfast together, we'd meet my office. And from my perspective, I always saw those as open and candid conversations. But now I want to ask you, you know, to be open with me, were those meetings really, just from your point of view, obligatory meetings, that you had to just come in and meet with the Secretary, where you felt like we were managing you and controlling the dialogue? Or did you really feel like those were good open dialogues where we are getting stuff done?
Sherman Gillums:That's kind of a loaded question, because it kind of depended on the occasion, Mr. Secretary, there were times when I felt like we had a meeting on a schedule, we had to do it. But we made the most of those meetings, and I'll be honest with you, those meetings were an opportunity for me to set the stage for other things that we had to get done. It wasn't just about the meeting, it was about the relationship that had to be in place. I remember your very first day as Undersecretary for health. I asked you a question. Why would you want this job? This was after, you know, the big six, it basically pushed out the previous Secretary after after the feeding scandal. And, and, you know, it wasn't really about your answer. It was about seeing who you were in three dimension. So it was important for us to have that access to you. And then when you became secretary, because we had that relationships in some of those meetings, where we're, you know, we're part of our engagement, it was very easy to continue that work with you when you moved up to the, to the tough work.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yes, Sherman might my recollection, when I met you was that you did not give me an easy time you were, you were loaded with things that you felt really were broken in the health system. And you were pretty direct with me. And and in some ways, I thought this guy's going to be a handful. But But, you know, it wasn't my intent to handle you is my intent to try to fix those problems. And, you know, you became a real partner from my point of view, in trying to be a true voice in figuring out what we needed to do to fix the problems. Well, if
Sherman Gillums:you recall, your predecessor in that Undersecretary spot, and who knows this, I won't say his name, we don't need to go into that. But it was not a good time. And we're talking about years of it not being a good time. So I had that going into the relationship we were building with you and you it wasn't the man. It was a position that I was really focused on, because we didn't know who you were, you know, you had been approved by Congress and all those things were were swell. But there were a lot of things that were broken that had to be repaired. And you can get lost in a lot of that when politics is at play. And so in that moment, it wasn't really about me, it was about the men and women you would eventually come to meet at PVA you would go to the games and you will see all those people that generally disregarded and voiceless and society. So when I had that opportunity, every time I have that moment, I have to be vocal for that. So I felt like I was embodying a lot of the frustration that folks felt at that time.
Louis Celli:You know, Sherman, you in the secretary, you really bring up, you know, good points about tough questions about, you know, the relationship being open and candid. And one of the things that I've noticed and it really it's only been exacerbated, you know, by the pandemic is at the VSO community doesn't seem as unified as it used to be. I remember the EDS, especially the big six, working pretty closely together on policy issues and having joint meetings, sometimes even having lunch together at least quarterly. You know, I'm still in touch with a lot of the EDS that I served with his Is that what you're seeing as well.
Sherman Gillums:I do see it. I'm not as attached to the community myself, personally, because a lot of those folks are. It's not just that they're new. But there was a sort of a generational divide. That's, that's there, you and I were very fortunate because we came up when the what they might be regarded as dinosaurs today, but they were the champions. I mean, they were the guys who had done it and done everything. And he passed along a lot of that, you know, Homer Thompson, well, even then, you, you were at the table with him. And we watched him work. He was my mentor, you know, and Bob Wallace and Gary Augustine at requirement and all those people who if you ask a lot of the folks today, they hadn't heard of these people. So and we were the youngsters, and we were the ones that they were passing the torch to. And I'm afraid at some point, that divide gets too big, and you don't get that knowledge transfer. So they have to kind of learn along the way. And they're kind of recreating or re relearning the lessons that we learned a long time ago. And that's unfortunate, but that might be what we're seeing at this point. And that may be a consequence of the political divisions as well.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I do think that's a really important point. When you look at the history of the veteran community, we tend to repeat the mistakes, the same mistakes each generation. And one of the things that really impressed me about the Vietnam Veterans because they were treated so horribly when they came back. They were and still are passionate advocates for our more our younger generations of veterans, for them not to repeat that experience. And I think what you're saying Sherman, that makes so much sense that the lessons of leadership need to be passed along from from generation to generation in the VSO community as well. So I wanted, I just wanted to, again, reflect a little bit, given your position now that you've stepped away from that community, the formal aspects of that community, it seems to me that you got to see several administrations you got, you have a chance to interact with a number of different secretaries and under secretaries. And it must be that some were more receptive to the voices of the VSO organizations, and others were less receptive to hearing what you really had to say. Do you give it can you tell the listeners just a sense about the difference that you experienced between various administrations and various secretaries in terms of wanting to hear your voice?
Sherman Gillums:One thing you learn eventually? Well, they're all different for different reasons. One was a four star General, your medical doctor was a corporate executive of a big corporation. And so they've all got a different constitution to them. And we know that quite and we don't, you know, but what doesn't carry over though, is is the same intention, the same view, worldview. I mean, some some folks come in and they think they're doing something new. Others just want to survive. Others want to be politicians, you know, and still, others simply want to make one person happy at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, that's their only goal in life. And I'm speaking broadly because I don't want to indict one individual's intentions specifically, but but everybody brings in a different mindset. And we have to quickly figure out what that mindset is while trying to also leverage our influence with those people. So y'all, we have to handle them as a calm and if somebody comes in and wants to basically roll the VSO community in those days, we would we would quickly show them you're a public servant. This is a your personal Empire, it doesn't work like that. And a lot of folks come in into that job specifically not understanding that it's much different than a lot of what they've done in life. And some of us have seen it for a long time over the years. That's the one thing about the Vietnam Veterans is their long suffering, and they're willing to fight that Agent Orange battle, I hope the burn pit sort of effort. You know, advocates are learning from that, because you have to be long suffering to win in this game. And if you're not, you know, if you're not if you're one of these instant gratification kind of people, it's not going to you're not going to get to your goal. But But back to your original question. Everybody's different and it's, you know, it's par for the course we have to figure them out and, and hopefully it's a it's a good dance.
Louis Celli:You know, but that said, it only makes sense that that the VA and the VSOs have a symbiotic relationship, right? I mean, VSOs act as a critical, critical advocates pointing out areas where where VA can improve and defending VA when they come under unfair or uninformed attacks, you know, and strong VSO voices will be appreciated by veterans who will then want to join and lend their voices, you know, to that important advocacy? How have you seen that relationship work?
Sherman Gillums:Well, it's, um, I mean, we don't win. And I've said this to you, Mr. Secretary, many times, your success is our success. We are we are bound to each other. So when we see an attack on the institution itself, that it doesn't just prop us up, we this is our lives we're talking about, this isn't a political football, you can just toss around. So when you, for example, when you cut off the head of an organization, you're weakening the organization. And I've said that publicly, you can't, you can't do that and expect things to go well, unless you just don't care. So when you have secretaries who have come under attack, for good reason, that's one thing you have to do what's right, but when it's a political game, then it's just basically going to cascade down and hurt everybody. And that's what I've seen happen at least a couple of times in my career, where it had nothing to do with the person at the top. It had everything to do with everything going on in the ecosystem. And it's just not right, because the VA is one of those institutions, where everybody's supposed to love it. Why Why would you want to hurt that institution? And but that hasn't been the case. It's been treated like a political football. And to me, the
Dr. David Shulkin:VSO community has had such a huge impact in helping veterans. And it seems to me when they're unified when they speak with a single voice that to the Congress, to the administration to the secretary. It's almost unlimited the impact that they can have, but there clearly have been some issues that have been challenging to get a VSO consensus on where where we just haven't yet been able to find the answers or, or get the get the action to fix the issues. Can you think about some of those challenging issues that you wish that there had been more consensus among the VSOs on where you had worked better together to get something done?
Sherman Gillums:One of them was a support for caregivers, where you saw post 911, pre 911. That divide there wasn't very helpful. You know, we we generally start out probably not agreeing on a lot of issues, and then you find ways to compromise. Some of the agent orange stuff was about either the law didn't go far enough, so we're not gonna support it, or, you know, we've got other things we've got to focus on. There's this protocol in the community that you have to just have to know the rules a little bit. I think where there have been major divides, I think when American Legion steps out and they do their thing, a lot of times it's, they're independent of the VSO community. We've unfortunately had to within the VSO community, govern each other in ways that were pretty harsh. I was I was at the table with Bob Wallace. And Gary Augustine wouldn't be here to basically dismiss a VSO, one that I later go work for, because of some internal issues that were not fun to deal with. And it had to do with politicizing. You know, we were talking at that time, we were talking about privatizing the VA and there was a lot of different you're a lot of different views on what that meant. And but that was a very high profile example of where we weren't a monolith. We're clearly not a monolith. And that was very stark in that moment.
Louis Celli:Sherman, I remember you telling me once that PVA was the only veteran's service organization that no veteran wanted to earn their membership in. Overall, VSO membership across the board has been dwindling. And when I started with the Legion, they had 2.2 million members. And I remember that, because I started including that number in all of our testimonies, and that was really just to remind Congress of the voting bloc and power that we represented. I just checked the latest numbers for the just for the Legion, and as of August 2021, your membership had dropped down to one and a half million members. I mean, what is the decline in VSO membership really say to policymakers in DC,
Sherman Gillums:which says to some policymakers, especially the newer ones, that they don't have a lot to fear with, with with the VSO monster when it comes for you, you know, Richard Burr, um, you have people that clearly were hostile to VSOs and they pay no price for it. It also says to them that VSOs may be a little out of touch. You know, women make up a larger portion of the vs of the of the veteran community, and the men and the military community. And it should proportionately show up in the numbers in the VSL space, but it doesn't when you go to a, you know, a big six meeting and every leader looks the same, right? There's a problem, there's no representation there, and people who would be inclined to join something like that have to see themselves in that space, or they're not going to join it. So I have seen progress. I'll be honest with you, I've seen a lot of progress. I was at senior leader. And we've seen VSOs get better at that. But in terms of membership, you can still go to parts of America where you go into a meeting a post. And you'll see one one demographic in there. And that's a problem.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Sherman, I think the issue about diversity and looking like the complexion and the and the makeup of our military is so important in terms of representation. What I often hear is people say that the big six VSOs represent the older generation of veterans, but not necessarily the newer generation, and that the newer veterans are looking for different things from organizations. So do you feel that the big six VSOs need to reinvent themselves?
Sherman Gillums:Definitely, I think any corporation, any any business that's been around for a long time, they've had to find ways to come around, I think the tobacco industry, then they just come out against reducing smoking. I mean, that's the tobacco industry, you know, they're figuring out what some companies and organizations don't figure out until it's too late. And by reinvent themselves, they need to invest in their future leadership. One of the one of the ways that, you know, this will be a dinosaur is if you don't have people running right now, or being groomed for leadership by blue, and like I were, by the people that came before us, if you don't see that, now, that's the canary in the mine, they're not going to be that older person at the top with that commanders cover on, if they're not even in the, you know, at the table at the ground level. And, and there's so much holding on to power, we see how these people don't go away, they don't let it go, they hold on, and stay there for so long, that it becomes a disincentive to even try. And I'm afraid we're seeing a lot of that happening. And with the, you know, the rise of newer organizations that are giving opportunities and alternatives to these younger folks to be in leadership positions, that's also going to make it hard to see a lot more longevity if that doesn't change.
Louis Celli:You know, Sherman, you and I have have been really involved in in some major change at the Department of Veteran Affairs. We've been to a number of bill signing ceremonies together and we spent, you know, great, a great deal of our time advocating for that. Do you think that we would have been as successful if we hit didn't have the collective voices of our membership behind us?
Sherman Gillums:Not at all, I think that the one thing that the lawmakers and policymakers think about AR and this is back in the Vietnam days, all those veterans on the steps of Congress, or we are when we stormed the hill, every year, all those veterans walking through Capitol Hill, it is not a good look, if you're on the receiving end of the wrath of that entire community. I mean, you really have to have messed up if you have the entire veteran community and the millions that are represented. And it's not it's not as if we've got all 20 million veterans behind us. We don't need that many. You know, PVA didn't have a large membership, but you don't want to 100 wheelchairs, you know, ticked off at you because of a policy. You know, for example, the not giving severely wounded veterans fertility assistance. Mr. Secretary, you were you were very instrumental in helping us reverse that decade's long, travesty. And we were finally able to get that bill passed. But now we're telling. We're telling folks that we love We love the troops, but you're not going to help them have children when they get their, their limbs blown off. That's not right. So So yeah, there were there's definitely still something to the idea that when you get the United VSO community focused on one thing, you better you know, get in line and and do the right thing.
Dr. David Shulkin:I know that I struggled with one of the groups concerned Veterans of America when I was secretary. They're the group that is funded by the Koch brothers and they represent themselves as a veteran service organization, but in actuality, they don't have membership. And at first, I really tried to take the Input seriously, I knew that they were critical of many things in the VA. But you know, that's the way you get better by listening to your critics. But after a while, I just felt that their input was actually more harmful than helpful and that they weren't playing a fair game. And so it became a problem for me, I just wonder what your view of them was and how the other veteran service organizations viewed concerned Veterans of America?
Sherman Gillums:This is an interesting question, Mr. Secretary, I met PSF, before anybody knew who he was, when he was executive director of CBA. They came to our office and they wanted us to look at their, you know, this, this big plan, they had to redefine the VA. I didn't, I didn't fault them for the idea. What I did say, though, is that I represent a lot of men and women who you don't see in this plan. For on that basis, alone, I can't there's not only can I not support it, I will be hostile to this plan. So come back to me, when you have something where you have contemplated what it will mean, for somebody who lives in this system, it's a this is our life. And, and then they put me in contact with during something for the first time. That's when I first met there. And they and you know what, they made honest attempts to do that, in fact, I was quite satisfied with the dialogue we'd started. So for that reason, I didn't I didn't feel the threat. I did, I did feel like the threat was real, though, when the White House had hit change administrations. And I immediately saw this, the rise of this, I will call it a VSO there, see for burger lobby, I don't think that's a that's lost on anybody. And they didn't represent voices, they didn't know that you could sit and talk to mark and Dan, at the time, they didn't know anything about that they weren't there for that they were there to build this platform. And eventually, you know, Trojan horse in this entire wave of how to redefine the VA, and they were fairly successful, to the extent that they were good at the fight. But I'll be honest with you, I think we underestimated that as an opportunity to have a real dialogue, because a lot of people were unhappy with what they were seeing in the VA. And I went to the table with him many times and had great dialogues with him all, it didn't end well. And I was not happy with how things were handled. But leading up to that point, we kept them off our back and they stayed off of our back, or I stayed off their back. Because we did have a lot of talks behind closed doors at reproductive.
Dr. David Shulkin:I also wanted to ask you a little bit about the work that still needs to be done in the veteran space. And, and I know that you're now working on the mental health issues, and one of the things that I feel is just still so important to work on. And unfortunately, we just haven't made a lot of progress on is the issue of mental health and veteran suicide. And that's, that's not to say that there's not a lot of really good work going on in the VA. In fact, I think the VA is the best and most comprehensive behavioral health care system in this entire country. But we still are seeing high numbers of veteran suicides and regardless of value, change the numbers, we're still at the same level of 20 veterans a day taking their life that we were a few years ago. So when you look at and you continue to advocate to make this improved, to improve the current situation, what type of work do you think we still need to be doing?
Sherman Gillums:Well, we know it's not a money issue. We know it's not a want to issue. People want to fix it. I think we're still not honest about what the problems are. In many cases, you know, we say 20 a day like that matters clearly won't be 20 A day after this pandemic is over. You know, the fact that it's a two year lag and how we count suicides is problematic for me, because we're not going to fight until 2022. What happened in 2020 if it stays on the same course that it's been on, but I think the biggest missed opportunity and it may be rectified soon is not investing in peer engagement, not having more veterans deployed to take care of veterans. There's a peer specialists act of I think it's 2021 where it went from 800 which was called for in 2009 to where it will be doubled or tripled or whatever. But we need more people who have been there and been in a hole to To get trained and to be given access to these veterans in some way, shape or form, and the and I think we're kind of doing that with, with the advent of community care where you've given veterans more options to reach out to different places of care to get the care. I think that was that was helpful. Having that mission, that pass was very helpful. Unfortunately, the pandemic kind of changed the contours of that, but but I think we if we stop thinking that medicine can fix everything, the therapy and look at other ways that veterans, can you. And that wasn't the case last year, last year, it was just, I don't know, it was just sort of weird thing where not even last year, the year before that as well, where anything else complimentary or alternative nature, we couldn't have camera conversations about cannabis. Not that I push cannabis, but we couldn't have honest conversations about things that seemed like areas we needed to at least explore. And that suggested to me, well, you're still not getting, you're still not understanding what the real problem is.
Louis Celli:So I like what you said about peer support and peer networking. And I think that that's critically important. I think a lot of people do. I mean, each of the VSOs have their own annual conferences where they get together, you know, they conduct the work of the organization, elect new officers collect their annual reports they hear from administration officials, is that enough?
Sherman Gillums:Obviously not. I mean, you know, maybe it's maybe a nice continue. But we've we've got to adapt to the demand. We've got to listen to the people we say we represent more, I don't think that happens enough. And we we get when I say we I'm certainly collective, we we've, we've just become used to doing things the way we've done them. And I don't see the desire to change much of it, because it'll then become unfamiliar. And different. You know, one big example is the way we do benefits, you know, you and I came up under the paradigm where you were a national service officer, you did the benefits the way you did them, you took care of everything, got them set up, when our veterans want to do it themselves. The trade off for them is we'll get a less complete grant. That's a lot faster than having to wait years and fight for it. And our you know, our makeup is what, why would you want to do that? Why not go for everything? You know what, cuz I'm trying to be happy. I know, you think, you know, and I have these conversations with veterans all the time. So I had to sort of rethink how I look at things like he benefits and how veterans are being empowered. I thought at first, well, they're being empowered at our expense, you know, you're giving them the benefits, because you don't want nsos making trouble for you in these virals, these VA regional offices. But I had to rethink that. Because when I talk to veterans today, they don't want to fight appeals for two, three years, even if it means more money for them. They want to move on, they don't want this attachment. So I had to rewire mouth. But I'm not sure if I had to rewire and rethink my own way of looking at it. But but I'm not sure if we've caught up to that yet. So we still have a ways to go before we catch up to the desires and demands of this ecosystem we're operating in and you've got a whole new generation of veterans, we don't understand whose needs are going to be far different.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, one of the reasons why we started policy vets is because we have a real concern that the significant issues that still remain to make sure that we're honoring our command to our veterans are just not getting the attention that they need. And if you think about it, we have a somewhat of a perfect storm, we have a national health emergency. We have a lot of big political fights going on, like the infrastructure bill, we have our troops coming out of Afghanistan for the first time in 20 years really coming home. And veterans issues, while important to many people seem like they may be taking a backseat. And so one of the things that we want to do is, with the waning of the influence of the VSOs that we've talked about on this podcast, we want to make sure that the voices are heard, that those policy issues are really ritually debated, and get the attention that they need. So we're thinking at policy events of trying to do a meeting where we bring everybody together around some of these key policy issues. I just wonder what your thoughts are on the need for this and whether this seems like it's a good approach. The easy answer is yes, there is a need for it.
Sherman Gillums:The way we do that, is by ensuring that folks know what the heck they're talking about. You got to know what you're talking about all, you know, we do a lot of, you know, we everything we see on social media must be true. We see a data point, and we think it must be true because it was on, you know, whoever the author was, of the of the tweet happened to be. But a lot of the work we did, when I was coming up, we had to know what the heck we were talking about. And we held it, we governed ourselves in that way. You couldn't be in the room with you, or any of the other secretaries. I say something and do have that look on his face. Like what? Well, something doesn't sound right about that is at the union. Do you know what you're talking about? So we you know, all the work we did with the independent budget, with with the all those VSOs that required a lot of research and digging in, we need our advocates to get back to that. And any forum that allows for that knowledge transfer is going to be great. So um, so yeah, I think this is definitely timely, given the gap that we've talked about here. And, and our desire is to undermine the VSOs we're not we're not throwing criticism at VSOs, just for the sake of it, we've lived it, we've lived and breathed that life, and we see what we see, we have to call it like we see it, you know, that's that's the way we operate. But I think this will help them if they if they look at this as a tool to create a pipeline, maybe a pipeline back into their leadership folds and ways to get people back into into the VSL space is through these types of conversations and opportunities. Sherman,
Dr. David Shulkin:I just wanted to ask you a little bit about this passion, that you have to continue advocating for veterans, I you know, many people put their time in service and then go out and, you know, do things and put their military life behind them in some ways. You of course are paralyzed you, you are constantly reminded of your injury during time of service. And now even more important, maybe your daughter is serving. And so this is clearly going to be a part of your life in your family's life for a long time. Can you tell us just a little bit about what it means to continue this type of commitment to advocate for veterans? Well, a
Sherman Gillums:lot of us who join the military and more specifically the Marine Corps, you live for the fight. And one thing you miss the most when you leave is the fight. It's why people stay in politics, their entire entire Delta that they can't give up. That's that rush you get. And we've been in some of the same we've been in the Roosevelt Room directly engaging the president or at the at the table testifying, I've sat next to Lou testify and and you're there to your purpose is just you realizing your purpose. That's what you were born for these moments. And then when you get away from it, you go you get rested up and then you come back for more of it. And that's just how you're wired at some point. And I'm wired that way. I think if I have to give it up, it'll it'll have to be a health issue or something that won't be willingly. But it's also because I still go through society seeing people who could never be heard. And it's just wrong. You know, I grew up as a kid who hated bullies. I just hated bullies all my life. And so maybe it's just more about that, you know, taking on big systems and making sure that people who see themselves as too small. So I call them like the fire ants, you know, takes a bunch of fire ants to eat an elephant. That's the only thing that can eat an elephant is a group of fire ants. And so I'd rather be the fire and have the rest of my life and live off by yours doing that if I can.
Dr. David Shulkin:And tell us about your daughter.
Sherman Gillums:My daughter Kayla is a in her second year as a midshipman at the Naval Academy. She just spent the summer she's still in Camp Pendleton right now. flew in a backseater of a t 39. I don't remember what the name of the aircraft was. But I posted some pictures on social media. When she went into her second year at the Naval Academy, she won her they have a brigade boxing match tournament last year that she had, she wanted her weight class. She's on a Dean's list. You know, she's doing all the things that I probably wish that I was good enough to do. But I would always fall far short. And I'm proud to say that because she's amazing. And I'm just glad to watch her rise because it gives me the energy I need to push for changes, like women in the military not having to worry about getting raped by their peers, things like that. Is she gives me that that purpose every day.
Louis Celli:Sherman, you know, first, I just I want to thank you for your friend. Brother, you know, we've been we've known each other a long time. And we've always been able to be open and candid with each other where we are about out of time. But before we go, I want to give you the last word. I want to know, first of all, if there's anything, you know, that we talked about, where we may have missed a critical issue, or if there's anything that you'd like to add before we before we sign off today,
Sherman Gillums:I'll just say that we have to we have to do better by women who serve in the military today, not just because my daughter. And I think we have a big opportunity in this moment, given what happened to Vanessa again, and to the rain down in Virginia. I want to see that change in my lifetime.
Louis Celli:All right. Well, thank you so much. And we really appreciate you joining us today.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, thanks. Sure. Thank you, gentlemen. Good to see you. Good to see you too.
Louis Celli:Well, that is definitely all the time that we have today. Hey, listen, I really hope you enjoyed our conversation with Sherman gilens as much as we did, and found it as as informative. Next week, you are not going to want to miss this show. We're going to be talking with Brian sandbagger from Cerner Corporation who's going to be taking us through the implementation of the VA and the DLD electronic health records modernization, it's going to be one you will definitely not want to miss. Join us next week.
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