Recent Afghanistan Ambassador to The United States Roya Rahmani sits down with former Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs Dr. David Shulkin Executive Director Louis Celli to describe the final days of democratic Afghan rule as the Taliban move into the Presidential Palace.
Recent Afghanistan Ambassador to The United States Roya Rahmani sits down with former Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs Dr. David Shulkin Executive Director Louis Celli to describe the final days of democratic Afghan rule as the Taliban move into the Presidential Palace.
There was lack of leadership. The Afghan army handed over this checks, provinces and to the Taliban because they were told so many of them misspoke and said that you would get calls as we are at the front line and trying to push the Taliban back to stop to hand over. And then and then who handed over Kabul to the Taliban. Unfortunately, it was our former president. By leaving the palace. He created a vacancy that they should come and take over. There is no shortage of guns, no shortage of bullets, no shortage of bombs and no shortage of people who are however, experience looting. So some of the politician, as I understand, called in the Taliban and said he has left then there is no settlement come and take it.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy vets podcast engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void and support a policy development for America's veterans. With your hosts, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion Louis Celli. Today's guest Roy Armani. She's an Afghan diplomat who until recently served as Afghanistan's first female ambassador to the United States.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, we promised our listeners that we would have Roy Romani on here, the ambassador to the United States from Afghanistan, and during this special edition of the policy, that's podcast, we bring her to our listeners tonight.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, hello. I think like many people, I've been glued to the TV. I've been listening to a lot of people comment on the situation Afghanistan. But I think this is the highest ranking former Afghan official to really tell us what's going on. And to tell us the impact of what we're all watching on TV.
Louis Celli:No, you're exactly correct. And what we heard tonight, was was pretty shocking. She speaks directly to President Biden in response to his speech.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I don't think people realize what's happening. But she tells it like it is she has lived under Taliban role. She's hearing directly what the Taliban are doing now. They're ripping young girls aged 12 out of cars, from parents hands and arms, to send them off to be married. She's telling us why the army didn't put up a fight. And she's telling us about her former boss, President Ghani, and what she thinks about what he did when he fled the country. This is truly amazing to hear this. And most people are going to be shocked when they hear her talk about this. Well, Mr. Secretary, this
Louis Celli:is the longest podcast we've ever done. But there was no way that we could shorten it. We could not we could not shorten her words. They're, they're too meaningful and impactful. And I think the veterans of the United States certainly are going to want to hear the story.
Dr. David Shulkin:And she has a special message for the veterans and families that have served in Afghanistan. And that's why we do this podcast. So let's get going. Ambassador Romani, thank you so much for joining us today. We're greatly appreciative of your time, this is a day where you have been speaking to so many people. And we know that the American public is there with you in their thoughts about the people of Afghanistan and for everything that you've done for the country. So thank you today for spending just a little bit of time with us.
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Thank you for having me, Mr. Secretary.
Louis Celli:So madam ambassador, it is an honor to have you with us today. And, you know, for our listeners, those who have not been fortunate enough like the Secretary and I to have actually spent time with you and met you. Would you mind telling everyone a little bit about yourself and your family and how you came to be the first woman ambassador to the United States from Afghanistan.
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Thank you for this opportunity. As you mentioned before, it's a very difficult day. It is a tough day for us Afghans but also So shared by so many of our friends, so I will try to do the best I can under the circumstances. My name is Royer Rahmani. I was born in Afghanistan, right a year before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I grew up in war, I have never seen my country in peace. The year of peace was 2001, when the United States intervened, and Raiders of what we will live in for a decade. And for us, we were living in darkness and things getting worse for us everything. about myself, as I said, I was born in 79. I grew up in War I, under the Soviet invasion, in 1993, my family and I were forced, and I'm using this word, very intentionally forced, we had no intention of leaving the country. But we're forced to leave our home and our country because of very intense Civil War, in which we were in between the crossfire from one side of Kabul to other side. So we set to go to Pakistan, we were hoping that we would be there for weeks, not months, it turned out to be years. In Pakistan, we were usually calling ourselves that we are Afghan refugees, but we weren't really necessarily refugees, because we did not have any status. And it was difficult. I grew up under very difficult circumstances, finishing high school in a Saudi funded madressa. And then went to a medical school there. I in search of better education, and better tomorrow, I found a way to obtain a scholarship to McGill University in Canada, to a program that they were sponsoring children in situation of crisis from those who are refugees in other countries. I studied software engineering in Canada, and worked there as an engineer. But in 2004, it was too hard to set and work comfortable in Canada while the rest of the country was just bubbling with hope. People wanted to be part of this new rocky reconstruction effort, this opportunity that has opened up. So as I was volunteering a lot at the time, there was an opportunity for me to return on a stand to help an international organization. And I that and that took me back to Afghanistan. I went for a couple of months, I spent again a couple of years. As the situation as the security situation deteriorated. I was again, searching for answers, trying to find ways to better address the issues. I decided to go and continue my higher education. I got Fulbright scholarship, I came to Columbia University. And again, thanks to Columbia University, they also provided me with their scholarship. I went to school of International Affairs, Public and International Affairs after doing a number of years running programs all around the world, again, I had that edge that I needed to contribute to Afghanistan. But in 2007, when I had come out of the country, I had promised myself that if I whenever I returned, I would try to work for government, not because I was so impressed by anything and the government, by the by the lack of it. Because I always thought that there was so much problem with how the institutions functions, that in order to be useful, you need to bring the change from within. And I did, I returned back. I worked for 10 years for our foreign government and that period In the last month, I worked several years as Director General, the first director general for regional cooperation. I established that Director General and Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I led many regional efforts. I conceptualized and spearheaded the heart of a process, among many other ones, so there was doing I then I served as a foreign assistance ambassador to Indonesia, ASEAN and Singapore. And then I was appointed as the first woman to be a ambassador to United States.
Dr. David Shulkin:Madam ambassador, you have a remarkable career. And thank you for everything you've done, I, I actually didn't know that you were a physician. But that makes so much sense to me, because you're a woman of great intellect, but also have great compassion. And I've seen that compassion directly with how you interact with us veterans and their families by opening up your home and letting them know how important they have been to helping the people of Afghanistan. What would you say to us veterans who have served in Afghanistan, those that have lost loved ones over the past 20 years, on a day like today, that is just so emotional for you and for them?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Thank you, Mr. Secretary, you're very kind. The connection I have with the veterans. It is. It's the connection that is from one heart to the other. It is at the level of personal feelings. It is at the level that we have been through the same sort of suffering. I know their pain, and they know ours. I have this connection with the veterans because they, every Gold Star family is another family of ours. And I am always humbled and intimidated, by their courage to so graciously accept to speak to me to talk to me. I always told them that I don't know what more I would have done. If I were in their shoes. I found them the strongest people that I have met. But today is a difficult day. And once again, we are at the same footing. I feel them. And I think they feel us. I will tell them how I feel. And I and I think if they feel the same. At the very least they know they are not alone. I am confused. I feel betrayed. I am feeling that they cannot trust. I put 10 years of my life working very hard, under very difficult circumstances thinking that the next girl in my shoe would not have to go through this. And now I'm questioning what is next? What was it all for? And I know this is the questions that veterans families have the veterans who serve their
Dr. David Shulkin:ambassador, Ronnie, I think you've really said something really important. And I think you're going to speak directly to the hearts of those who have served in their families. And I know that when many American veterans and their families are watching the TV, all throughout the day, many are reliving their experiences. They're they're there. They're having, you know, memories and in some cases, very visceral reactions to what they're seeing. And since you're so connected to them, I can only imagine what this is like for you to be watching. I don't know if you've had time. To watch on the TV, but of your fellow country, men and women, you know, running onto the tarmac of the airports, they're so desperate. And they're so fearful and looking at their faces. You can't help. But but just be, you know, really want to cry to help them. What is this been like for you to watch this happen in real time?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:devastating? absolutely devastating. Yeah. This morning, I posted on my Twitter account, a video showing how a plane takes off. And as it takes off, one person second, third one keeps falling off, because they were hanging off the wings of the plane in hopes to get out. I can't tell you. I can tell you how I felt that feeling cannot be described.
Louis Celli:Madam ambassador, I'd like to build on something that you said earlier, we talked about the United States first going into Afghanistan. And they did that to to eradicate al Qaeda. And in doing so, wanted to also make sure that the Taliban was no longer in Afghanistan. Can you can you tell some of our listeners who who may not have served or or may not really fully understand what Taliban regime is really like, well, what's the what's the difference between Taliban government and Afghan government?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Well, to to draw a distinction at this point is it we will need some time, but let me just try to explain it in brief. tala Taliban are a group that have very fundamental Lee fundamentally conservative and radical worldview. They are not flexible. They do not, they are very much in into their own ways, they do not subscribe to debate and dialogue differences. They want things only one way and their way. And this is why it is it was a impossible situation, to live under their rule and reign. Imagine if if you had any member of your family, which would be everything had to go that particular person's way for the rest of the family. This is this is the way that I can explain it. The Afghan Government Of course, it was based on a democracy or a an attempt for democracy. This is it was supported by the democratic ideologies and values. And despite all the weaknesses and difficulties that had the basis of it was a constitution and a democracy. And that is that is the difference. Now, let me also tell you one other thing. It's actually not the difference, but the similarity. And this is unfortunately the reason that we are today where we are that our last government and the Taliban had one thing in common. They did not want to be inclusive, they did not want to share power. And this is where, where why we are where we are.
Louis Celli:I'd like to I'd like to build on that just a little bit. And if you could tell us what the rights of women might be under a Taliban regime as opposed to your former government.
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Well, if If you look at the reign of the Taliban, during 96, to 2001, they did not treated women as human beings, they treated them as commodities. In their view, women belong to house home, they were part of household. And their realm of responsibility and liberties was also confined within the house. So I don't know how much you're going to be exercising that any different this time. Based on what we have seen after they captured provinces, it did not seem to be very different. Now, they have been to Kabul just for a day. The good thing is that so far, they haven't gone after people, and they haven't started shooting people and killing them, and getting them out of their houses. However, they have identified people who have worked with the government before, by going and trying to get there, the collecting the weapons, and the vehicles that belong to the government and post carrying a government plate. Some people are extremely nervous about that, because they see that as a sign of them identifying people who did work with the previous government. And they're worried that next step would be, they would go after them and slaughter them. Now, with the rights of women, as I mentioned, they see women as part of the commodity and we they there realm to be confined to that of the private sector, and not necessarily a part of a valuable part of the society. And public sphere for sure. They the previous government had a different role, whether they believed and to what extent they believed in the important role of women and their capability in a variety of sectors. They allowed women to access lots of opportunities in the public sector, and private sector. In basically every single field, pretty much they are mobility was not restricted. Women were able to be doctors, engineers, artists, athletes, you name it. That just collapsed. Yes.
Louis Celli:And this is the government that you're speaking of. Yes. The just collapsed. Correct. I just wanted to make that distinction.
Dr. David Shulkin:In short, including being ambassador to the United States, the first woman, you so many, many, many people are very proud of that.
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it was it was it was it was not easy. It's not true. If If we say that we were equally treated, that that's not true. That was difficult, but it was there. There was discrimination. But you were still you had the possibility. Now that entire possibility is non existent.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, it seems that the Taliban may have gotten themselves a better PR agency than they had, because they're spending a lot of time and the American journalists are covering that covering this, saying, We don't we're going to allow women to continue to get educated and we're going to, you know, not disrupt the life of people. And you almost make it you can almost believe that this is a new and improved Taliban. But But you know, I, I think many Americans, this is the first time that they're hearing from them. They don't have the experience and the real life episodes of living under the Taliban the way that you and so many other people in Afghanistan have. So do you have any words of caution for the American people about what they're hearing today over over TV about these messages from the Taliban?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Well, first of all, My messages that why would anybody try to? Unless it's very intentional to say, Oh, thanks for okay, because Taliban say that they are allowing women to seek education, education to what level education in what field, they already announced, and in some of the cities that they captured, that women can be doctors and teachers, but not in any other field. That means education, that means work. Is that enough? Would you agree with that? Would you start up for that? So I have been hearing this all along that Oh, they have changed. He said, they allow grace to go to school? Do they allow them to go there until third grade? Is that enough? Do they allow them to only finish high school? Is that enough? I mean, this, as I said, Unless you want to believe that and agree to that and say, Okay, thanks for Okay, and you want to move on. And there is no reason. And until you see it in action, and you see it over time. And you are ensured that it's not happening. I am horrified by the stories of how they conducted themselves and provinces going to the houses taking 12 year old girls, and asking them to marry them.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I'm not sure that Americans are seeing enough of those stories. So I think that's really important that you're highlighting that as what is happening over there. And I can't imagine anybody in this country believing that that's acceptable. So thank you for doing that.
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:I heard the story of a man who was traveling from one of the nearby provinces to Kabul, he was trying to escape the his new faith under the Taliban before Kabul was captured, their bus gets stopped and hits him with the with his wife and kids and his young girl is taken by the Taliban and the rest of them are ordered to go. The man was devastated to scream was screaming on the street, and couldn't could not collect himself. The the other the other man shared his story saying that the Taliban walked into their house asking, asking about their growth. He said that he was so afraid that they are going to take his daughter and take her take her with them to marry one of them. So he is lying to them. And he says that I have two wives. But he is pointing to his wife. And he's pointing to his young girl and says that these are both my wives. And he is told that you don't need two wives. Some of us don't have one. So they are taking his wife away.
Louis Celli:But well, let's go back just a little bit. You have had a front row seat. And watching some of this unfold you you were the ambassador to the United States from Afghanistan, you were you were privileged in meetings that that discussed strategies and what our intentions were, in order to liberate this country. I'm curious if you could share with us what the plan was, maybe even just six months ago, or a year ago or two years ago, when you first started? What What was the intention of, you know, of our forces in Afghanistan? What was the hope?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Are you asking about the discussions and meetings in Washington?
Louis Celli:Nothing that you can't speak about, but just an overall view of what what it was that that Afghanistan that you personally, were hoping to come out of the US his engagement and involvement in Afghanistan?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Well, two things number one, since I started in 2018, the very first thing I realized is that the entire engagement and Afghanistan is reduced to two to two words, longest war everything else was completely ignore the engagement, the sacrifices, the relationship, the partnership, the emotions, the bones, the camaraderie, everything that happened. stablished and built, particularly in a way that I've honest, Stan, is a country with a very young population, this sentiment that people had towards American America, Americans have been the only foreign force that were welcomed in Afghanistan, they were appreciated in Afghanistan, it was the first time that people of Afghanistan were worried about a force of foreign force leaving, not sake, when that was the general vibe of that. So I came here finding that the entire relationship is reduced to longest war. And there is that the whole Baba political bubble around that, some say you should stay, some say you should go. And there is the pendulum is moving between these continuously. And also there was a lack of a definition of the mission. There, I am explaining first where it was in us and I will then go back to our finest town. So I think as a result of that, I taught that very often there was a sense of confusion among the the American forces of what they were going to achieve. And by when because the sensor arrived here, the deadlines were shifting and moving very fast back and forth. The numbers were moving, the deadlines were shifting, the focus was about withdrawal, and how it should happen. And then the process that started in Doha that new Americans started talking to the Taliban and how that was it was very complicated, very messy, I must say. And then, on the other hand, there was a very fundamental problems back in Afghanistan, corruption was increasing exponentially. Poverty, the lack of leadership, the divisiveness of polity, and lack of unity, and, and all of that contributed to a hodgepodge of the situation that no one knew what to do. But at the same time, everybody was living in this culture, war and crisis that they needed to get as much as they want it. On one hand, there was this viewpoint that the Americans are not leaving. On the other hand, they, they thought that Okay, so how do I, how do we prepare ourselves if they leave tomorrow? So the very first thing was okay, so you secure your own self. So there was a lot of these back and forth. And then one of one of the big one of the other issues were how Taliban became a legitimately somehow recognized party. Internationally, they started traveling all around the world, they had the diplomatic platform provided to them. What could have happened, what I had hoped, which was your question was that I was trying to explain here in united states that while you are trying to facilitate talks between the Taliban, Afghan government and other parties, there are there, too many of these people are so much benefiting from the status quo and from continuation of a war, that it may not get there. I was trying to somehow tell them that you need to be more hands on, you have to bring them together, you have to give them that line, you have to be more strict. You have to hold them accountable, and ask them to deliver and get to our resolution. Because I did believe that the Americans are leaving, I knew that they were leaving that the whether it would be next six months, or one year or two years, the troops at one point would be fully withdrawing. So and that would be a huge crisis. We it's it is not rocket science. It's easily understandable. And then I was trying to explain that. But of course, there were. I think there were way too many and consistencies and too many disjoint policies that led us to where we are right now. Even if I would say even if several months ago, a settlement was really brokered, and then enforced and then sustained by some force. peacekeeping mission, that would have been possible. There was one thing that was clear, and the Americans have already had subscribed to that, that we are not going to win this militarily. So if you are not winning this, militarily, the settlement is an option is not the best option. It's no not not perfect, but it is an option. But then why not put all enough energy and resources into getting that? And then try so many different things, and back and forth and lack of clarity, which basically took us to where we are today?
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Ambassador. I think the biggest question that Americans have today, is in watching president and Biden just address the nation. He really said, this is up to Afghanistan, this is something that the people of Afghanistan have to deal with. And I wonder most Americans are wondering, was Afghanistan prepared to take this on? And was their army trained well enough? And, you know, just just what happened? Because it seems like so many people miscalculated on the ability for the Afghan army to be able to stand up to the Taliban. Do you? Do you have any sense about how Americans should look at that issue?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Well, how well prepared they were is something that you will have already seen in action. You saw what happened. And it is, I have to say that we cannot fully blame it on the Afghan forces and Afghan army and their lack of morale to say, to protect their people and their nation. There was lack of leadership, the Afghan army handed over districts, provinces, and to the Taliban, because they were told, so many of them spoke and said that you would get called as we are at the front line and trying to push the Taliban back to stop to hand over. And then and then who handed over Kabul to the Taliban. Unfortunately, it was our former president. By leaving the palace, he created a vacancy that they should come and take over the it was the same day when the Taliban announced at the at the gates of Kabul that we are here, but we are not going to enter with to prevent chaos. There was an announcement. But then at 2pm, present, Danny takes off with the people who took the country to the place that we are with his two closest aides. And then what happens, the nation did not know. We are what they just heard that he has taken off. And then people who have lived in Afghanistan like myself, and we have seen what happens when you when something like this happens. There is no shortage of guns, no shortage of bullets, no shortage of bombs, and no shortage of people, who are however, experience luring. So some of the politician, as I understand, called under Taliban and said he has left then there is no settlement come and take it.
Dr. David Shulkin:Really, you were thanks to your kindness and your hospitality. You invited us into the embassy not long ago when President Ghani was in Washington. And you gave us the opportunity to hear from him directly and to speak to him. And one of the things that he said that impressed me. He said that he was prepared to give his own life to stand up for his people. And then ambassador, just as you said, he got up suddenly and he left the country. And I can just imagine how demoralizing that was to you and to others that looked to him for leadership. You were there that evening, when he said that so do you think that the situation changed or do you think he just was concerned about his own safety
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:He said that again a few days before he did it. Today I saw a thread of tweets from one of other his closest aides, saying that how he was abandoned. How they did not share all of this I have I'm hearing that how it was all planned. So like you said, we have come in this conversation full circle. You started by asking me how I feel. And I said, I have lost trust. I said, later in this conversation that how President Ghani empowered. And in the previous government, women were able to exercise their rights. And they were able to assume that a variety of positions and whatnot, despite all the difficulty and discrimination, that was a source of hope, and we were thinking, Okay, so we got this, despite all these difficulties, now, we have to make it better for the next generation. And now what, what to look for what to level up. And, and I understand if he was concerned about his life, but he could have at least address the nation and let them know,
Dr. David Shulkin:Ambassador, the courage in which you're saying this, and speaking up means so much to people in your country and to so many Americans. And as you know, there's often times where people become the unlikely heroes. And maybe there'll be a time where we will see you brought in as the new president of Afghanistan, what do you think about that?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Mr. Secretary, during my time here, during my time in Indonesia, when I went back to Afghanistan in 2004, and I worked there for several years, in many workshops, some kind of process that I have attended. I, sometimes people have been very, very kind. And they have said, what you just said, You know, I have never shared this before. Every time they said that, I said, Okay, so I'm just hoping there would be a day that Afghanistan would have a woman president. Today, I think it is the most unlikely thing to happen in my life. Because the course that we are set to
Louis Celli:madam ambassador, I just want to go back to something you said earlier, and just give meaning to it for our listeners. Americans have heard over and over again, the the life, you know, the American lives that have been lost in Afghanistan. We've had more than 20,000 Americans who have been wounded. And we lost nearly nearly 2500 us us lives in the fight. But I also want to talk a little bit about the Afghan troops that were killed in the fighting. And while the the actual numbers, you know, have never really been released by the Afghan government, we understand it to be somewhere in the neighborhood between 65 and 70,000 Afghan troops having been killed, and that's on top of the nearly 50,000 civilian lives that have been killed during this war. Can you can you speak to your your army, you know, the troops that you saw being trained? and and you know, what it meant to them to have Americans helping them build their army?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Well, I I used to hear these stories of camaraderie on both sides. I would I heard how they appreciated some day support of their US and international allies, how they shared and brave their meals, how they broke bread together, how they supported and carried one another and how they learn and share very personal stories. They knew each other's families names, their wives and children's names and what it meant to them. So they These were the sweetest. And they're the kind of stories that that all that connected us that while I have not served as a member of the military, but this watching this was just marvelous. One of the the last events that I attended was when I went to moody Georgia as four of our pilots were graduating after a two years of intense training to become a 29 pilots. What I saw there just was extremely emotional, the bone that they had formed with their teachers with their comrades, and how they felt towards each other there, there have been numerous stories. And I think it will still survive regardless of what politics does. There is a way bigger sense and emotions that brings people together. And that is what is valuable. The fact that so many veterans are now worried about their comrades and Afghanistan and are trying every everything they can to get them out is an indication of that. You mentioned about the sacrifices of the armed forces. And this was the same thing that today I was thinking about. I I have been just overwhelmed by by thinking about those families who lost their members of the family and the security forces trying to hold the country together. And I cannot imagine what they are going to. So I want to again, tell the veteran community here in united states that as we feel your pain, especially those who were to especially those who have taken the ultimate sacrifice and their fact that their families basically, and those who are suffering from injuries, as well as the other traumas of the war, that we feel for you. I mean, there is the blame game and politics that is that is at one level. But the the roots of it, the depth of it is, is what you get for your country, just like what we did for our country. So we feel your pain very deeply at every level. And now at this stage, you have 35 million of us. Sharing, you are feeling your pain.
Dr. David Shulkin:Ambassador, we're, we're so appreciative of your time, and we're going to wrap this up. And maybe this is an unfair question to you. But on a day like today, in knowing what you and so many people are going through, is there any reason for hope? Is there any thing that you can think of that might be a positive that we can look forward to in the future?
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:The reason for hope, is the fact that you're concerned that the fact that you're looking at these and you're worried the fact that so many of you are making calls and trying to get your comrades out. That is the source of hope. The fact that you're concerned and I am I know that that hope is stronger than any political decision than any policy, that that is the one that is going to bring the change. I my last message is that we are not going to give up a new shirt not as well. Let's keep on it is possible. And I do not want to think that my country my people, your friends, your comrades or doomed to darkness just because of this, this of what happened. There is a way and let's work on it.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, our thoughts are really with you and we know that you have Family and many, many people that you care about. And we, as you said, care very much about them as well. And we'll be not only thinking and praying that they are okay, and that you can bring them to safety. But we want you to know that we are there for you, Ambassador Romani, thank you so much for being with us on this very tough day.
Ambassador Roya Rahmani:Thank you.
Louis Celli:Thank you so much. Well, there it is. And that really is all the time that we have for today. And thank you for joining us for this special edition of the policy that's podcast and stick with us as as we'll be resuming our normal Friday, podcasts, and this Friday will be Brian sandbagger with Cerner Corporation. We'll see.
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