Today, Cherissa Jackson, Chief Medical Executive at AMVETS (American Veterans), a registered nurse, a veteran and PTSD survivor, discusses her perspective on Cannabis and the impact it is having on the veteran community. Also, Lou puts the Secretary on the spot regarding his policies while he was VA Secretary.
Today, Cherissa Jackson, Chief Medical Executive at AMVETS (American Veterans), a registered nurse, a veteran and PTSD survivor, discusses her perspective on Cannabis and the impact it is having on the veteran community. Also, Lou puts the Secretary on the spot regarding his policies while he was VA Secretary.
One story I tell all the time is a veteran. He was a marine. He was using a lot of opioids for pain, PTSD. And he said it wasn't until someone introduced him to cannabis. And he was he was like Sheree. So I was on 10 different medications. From all of my conditions prescribed by the VA. I was tired or taking all 10 of these medications. I was constantly getting, you know, having to do labs because it could affect either his kidney or his liver because of the side effects. And he was just taking charge of his own life and being his own advocate and he said, You know what, I don't want to do this anymore. And when he was introduced to cannabis, I'm so happy to report that he's no longer on any of those medications.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy beds podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your hosts, former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David shulkin, and former executive director of the American Legion Louis Celli. Today's guest Teresa Jackson, Chief Medical executive at amvets, a registered nurse, combat veteran, and a proud PTSD survivor and advocate.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, when you lead the VA, both the the Health Administration and the Secretary I remember hearing you testify time and time again. And addressing that veteran suicide was your number one clinical priority? How do you feel the agency did on that score when you were in charge?
Dr. David Shulkin:I think people took it really seriously. And I think that despite all the effort, all the resources, the amount of new program that went into trying to find solutions, the progress was very, very slow. And I think that this is one of the most stubborn problems that we've come across. And there's not going to be a vaccine for this. So we're gonna have to keep working at it. And really being open to innovative ways to dealing with this.
Louis Celli:It's really an excellent point. You know, we hear a lot about non pharmacological programs like art therapy, we just, we just had an MRI on last week or canine and animal therapy, we did a podcast on that or equine therapy, outdoor emergent, even fly fishing, you know, but well, while clinicians should always consider a blend of therapies that may be appropriate for certain people, in many cases, well monitored, and properly prescribed medication can certainly be part of a properly executed treatment plan, can't it?
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think so. But you know, they didn't talk to us about any of these things in medical school. And so many doctors just don't understand the power of these non pharmaceutical therapies. And it really wasn't until I got to the VA that I began to see just how powerful these were and how some of these adaptive sports and creative arts and emotional support dogs changed veterans lives and actually got them off these medications. And so I just think we have to be much more open to thinking about different ways of providing treatments than necessarily what we were traditionally taught in school.
Louis Celli:All right, so I'm gonna put you on the spot for a minute in your opinion as a physician is cam is cannabis, a pharmaceutical?
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, Lou, you know, it's really interesting, having lived through the past 18 months it during this pandemic, where I've seen things that I would have never thought should become political. Like whether you get a vaccine, wear a mask, take a certain medication. I now think back to this issue about cannabis, Cannabis, and the chemicals that underlie the impact of this plant, which are CBD and THC should not be treated any differently than any other chemical compounds, and some are clearly helpful, and some are harmful. And they should be studied without this political overlay. And we should really let research drive us to an answer about whether these can actually help humans and offer new alternatives and advantages.
Louis Celli:So speaking of stubborn the DEA continues to classify this as a schedule one drug right alongside heroin, meth, LSD. So in, in your opinion, based on your experience, I mean, is this a generational divide? It seems that more young people are for it. Some of the older generation haven't really fully understood what the medical benefits could be. Where are we on that?
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, look, I think that this is really an issue that if you would take away all of people's emotional feelings about it and take a look at it, it's an issue that, frankly deserves an answer and deserves study. And if this has benefit, it should be removed off of the schedule one list. By the way, keeping in the schedule, one drug, probably contributes to the criminal justice system to filling up our jails to keeping people from being able to get legitimate work because of criminal records. So this, this one little decision to keep a schedule one drug, I think, is having a major impact on many hundreds of 1000s of people each year, and has a large economic impact on the country, as well as potentially not being able to help some people that potentially could be helped from this for medical reasons.
Louis Celli:Well, let's, let's talk about veterans in the VA. And again, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit. So I get it right. I feel for clinicians at the VA I feel for government employees who have to follow federal regulations in law, and they're in a really bad position. But I remember approaching you several times about this when you were secretary, and you were quite sympathetic to this. As a matter of fact, you issued a memorandum it as far as I know, it was the first documented memorandum that was issued that actually told veterans Listen, if you live in a state where cannabis is legal, and you test positive for cannabis, Cannabis, you will not be at risk for losing your benefits. Well, I
Dr. David Shulkin:think that's absolutely right. I think that there were two more things that I felt that people were hiding behind. And the law really didn't prevent them from doing it. The first and most important was, I felt that VA doctors and clinicians had an obligation and should be asking all their veterans, whether they are using medical cannabis, and talking to them about how that can appropriately either help them or harm them. But to simply hide behind an excuse of saying, I'm sorry, we're not allowed to ask you or talk about that. I did not feel put the veteran first. And of course, many of our veterans are properly prescribed cannabis by doctors outside the VA are using it, according to prescription come to the VA and need to have those conversations. And I felt strongly that her doctors had the authority to do that. And I hope that they begin having those conversations. The second thing is, I do not believe that federal law prevents VA from studying cannabis. And I believe VA researchers should be studying the impact of this on Veterans, for conditions like PTSD, for chronic pain and for other conditions that may be contributing to the epidemic of veteran suicide. And so while I recognize that it takes more paperwork, and maybe some more effort to get permission to study a schedule one drug, they can actually do it. And I was strongly encouraging them to do it. And when I left VA, there were some initiatives in the research arena at VA beginning and I hope that that work is continuing.
Louis Celli:That's why I'm really excited about our guest today. Teresa Jackson is a is a combat nurse. She spent 20 to 23 years in the Air Force. As matter of fact, she got her commission after she joined and became a nurse. And she is an advocate in this community right now holding seminars and panel discussions on behalf of M vets to talk about the medical benefits of cannabis. So I guess my question is, how successful Can she possibly be when it comes to the VA?
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, I know, Teresa, and she is fearless. And when she sees a problem like this, that people don't want to talk about that just encourages her. So it doesn't surprise me she goes out and organizes the first summit on this and that she's out there constantly talking about this, and she's not going to give up. So giving her the ability to talk to us about that and why she feels so strongly, I think is just a natural thing for us
Louis Celli:to do. Really her tenacity is one of the things that attracted us to her to invite her in as a policy that so We're really excited to have her on board. And let's let's get her in here to talk about this. Let's do it. Theresa, thank you so much for joining us today. Welcome to the policy bets podcast. I'm so happy to be here.
Dr. David Shulkin:I'm so looking forward to our discussion today. And I also wanted to thank you for being a policy vets fellow. But I wanted to let our listeners know a little bit about you. And so you served for 23 years in the Air Force. Do you want to tell us about your experience as a now being a veteran in some of your deployments?
Cherissa Jackson:Absolutely. And I just want to correct you to Dr. Show for 23.5 years in 14 days. Want to take every day, I did not mean to cut you short. But everyone gets a kick out of that when I do my introduction. And I say I served 23.5 years in 14 days. But yeah, I came into military at 17. My parents had to actually sign for me, I came on as a logistics officer. And I did that for 11 years decided it was boring and needed something more adventurous, it decided to become a nurse. And through the use of the Air Force, I was able to get my bachelor's degree. And I got commissioned, and I finished off my retirement as a captain with the promotion to major. I did four deployments twice to Iraq and once to Afghanistan. And when they came back looking for me for the fifth time, I said no, did my retirement papers got to go. So I'm just so honored to be here to talk to you guys today.
Dr. David Shulkin:But that didn't stop you. You continue to serve and you continue to serve your fellow veterans even after you left. Isn't that right?
Cherissa Jackson:Absolutely. You know, I actually had a nonprofit It was called pts spaces. As someone who was diagnosed with PTSD coming back from redeployment, I wanted to change the stigma on what PTSD look like. I remember going to West Point to do a presentation there. And one of the scholars father came up to me and say you don't look like someone who has PTSD. And that infuriated me. And so I was on this quest to make sure no matter where I taught him or what events I went to that I wanted people to know that people with PTSD could still be good citizens, good mothers, good fathers, and we can still be out here serving the community.
Louis Celli:Nurse Jackson, we have a lot to cover today. Our topic is is something that I think a lot of our listeners have been waiting for. So I really want to dive right in. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey and how you were introduced to advocating on behalf of cannabis and maybe a little bit about about the plant and the science that you've been working on?
Cherissa Jackson:Absolutely. So I became the chief medical executive of and vets in 2019. And they chose me because I was commissioned, they chose me because I was an advocate in many different areas. They they got me to actually run their heel program. Heel stands for healthcare evaluation, advocacy and legislation. And when I got there, I said the best way to be an advocate is to really get into the trenches of our veterans. So I did a focus group for women veterans, I did focus groups for LGBT plus veterans, I did a focus group with veterans and I wanted to really get into what they wanted me to advocate for. And as a result, I came into contact with so many veterans that were actually using cannabis. And so I started doing my own exploration on what cannabis could do. I had not used cannabis. I was clinician I couldn't. And so I wanted to find out what was the story? What was this medicine about? And so I became my own advocate, I took my own little certification course I paid for it. And I got to learn on my own what this medicine what this plant can do. And later I discovered in the background, that amvets actually had a resolution that states that we are in favor of cannabis research for veterans who are dealing with or who are challenged with PTSD. So that was my open door to actually have the organization now support the work that I was doing out in the community as a cannabis advocate
Dr. David Shulkin:kirusa you just said that you and amvets were in support of research for cannabis, is that different than supporting the use of cannabis in a clinical setting right now?
Cherissa Jackson:Okay, so it's kind of twofold because the resolution pretty much wants to identify their research, but we're also in support of veterans using it as a medicine. We're not in support of cannabis being used recreationally we stand behind the science. And as a clinician, I have to stand behind the science. So the sciences do the research. So our resolution is more specific about the research and how it can be efficacious to veterans on that side.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, if it's okay, let's just let's just take those two areas, and let's just explore them a little bit. First, let's talk about the research. And traditionally has been very hard, particularly within the federal government, like the VA system, to conduct research when there's a federal ban on the substance. So have we made any progress and how How are you trying to advocate for research within places like the Department of Veteran Affairs?
Cherissa Jackson:I think that's a great question. And one of my mentors Dr. Su Cicely, as we all know, in the cannabis industry has done some research in the cannabis space. So I actually saw her out the Ask her what is going on with cannabis research in the veteran space. And so she was my first introduction to what had been happening or what isn't happening at the VA currently, and again, Dr. shelf, and you know, everyone is standing behind schedule one, schedule one, we can't do anything because it's schedule one. However, we have veterans out here who are dying and committing suicide when this plan could actually help them. So we are far from where we need to be when it comes to research at the VA. I think there's more we can do. I think there's more coming down down the pipeline that will help us get that research into the VA. But it's really going to be about VSOs and veterans coming together and asking and pleading for this to actually happen. And for this to change at the VA. Well, Teresa,
Dr. David Shulkin:you just answered my question, not much has changed. Since I'd left the VA, I was absolutely taking the position that you were taking, which was that we need to do the research and not doing the research is really being anti science. So it sounds like we're in a similar position. Now on the treatment side, where you also are advocating that there are certain veterans that should be using this for medical and clinical reasons. Which conditions are you recommending? Which conditions do you believe have the science behind it to be able to help veterans who are suffering from mental health issues?
Cherissa Jackson:As a PTSD advocate? You know, I can just talk about my experience and then the answer will come out of that. For me who suffers from anxiety, depression, being antisocial, I needed something that could help me and for me, I found exercise my meditation. My spirituality helped me out of that, but not all veterans can find a solution for that. So when veterans started asking me about cannabis, and how can cannabis help them? I did the research, I saw that cannabis can help with PTSD symptoms, and not everybody suffers from PTSD the same way. It not only helps with PTSD, but it does help with depression. I mean, there's the studies out here that shows that someone that uses, you know, a gummy to go to sleep because of insomnia. Someone that uses a tincture or someone that uses, you know, ointment, those things help with chronic pain, which we know a lot of veterans come back from war with and retire with chronic pain. We know as far as depression is concerned that that's the leading cause of a lot of veterans committing suicides along with opioid abuse. So I think there's so much research is already out there that shows that it can help with the PTSD challenges that a lot of veterans have. But it has to also start with the VA in accepting this science is saying instead of putting our veterans on these opioids, let's try something different. And cannabis is the way
Louis Celli:I think you bring up an excellent point. I'm really glad you said that. And so for our listeners, let's let's sift through really quickly what the laws really are. Right? So veterans and and citizens who live in states where cannabis is even legal recreationally can't understand how it can still be federally illegal, which then prohibits the science from actually happening. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Cherissa Jackson:Yeah, absolutely. So veterans need to know, there's two different categories, right, your state can be a medicinal state or it can be a recreational state. So you have to identify that first. And then you have to follow the rules and the laws, which are which your state has adopted. If your state says your recreational state, and is still illegal, then you have to understand what does that mean? Does that mean I can grow in my state? Does that mean I can carry if I can, how much can I carry? And so I think veterans have to really understand for those states that are medicinal or recreational what that means and they have to comply, because without a shadow doubt they can be in prison if they go against that particular state's laws and procedures. As far as with decisional veterans have to have a condition they have to have a qualifying condition that will allow them to get a certification card to go inside of a dispensary. If you don't have that card, guess what, you're not going to have access to that dispensary. So it really boils down to what your state is allowing what category of medications that that state is allowing and you abiding by those particular things. Because again, schedule one means is fairly legal.
Louis Celli:So here's the divide. And this is a point where I wanted to get and I'm really glad you brought that up. So let's suppose it a veteran has a condition whether it's Crohn's disease or epilepsy or pain management or sleep where is the prescription where As a physician that says, here's the strand you need to take, here's the here's the type of ingestion you need to do. Here's the dosage. Where is that information? How do patients make informed decisions?
Cherissa Jackson:And that's the controversy that's out here in the cannabis community and I'm just being honest with you when when certifiers each state have certifiers, you know providers can go and take the test they can go through the cannabis education. They become certifiers. When the certifiers are talking to patients, they're not given patients information on what's going to work for you what strand if a tincher if a drop is appointment, if a gummy is going to work for you, they're just certifying that you have a qualifying condition by that state's laws that allows you to be a medicinal cardholder. Now, when a veteran or a patient goes inside of a dispensary, we have bud tenders, right. These bud tenders are supposed to be knowledgeable, you have clinical directors that are supposed to be knowledgeable, but every patient is different. So what works for me may not work for you may not work for Charlie may not work for Dr. shulkin. So it really is on the patient at this point, unless they find a clinical cannabis educator that can sit down and do a clinical Claire plan. Me as as as a clinician, when I talk to veterans, I sit down as if I'm still a nurse working at bedside and we go through a care plan, what is your condition? What are you looking to do? What are you familiar with and let the patient then in turn be part of advocating what they want when they go inside of a dispensary. But yes, that's very controversial out here in the cannabis community, because not every budtender not every prescriber, not every clinical educator out here knows all those answers because it's so different for every person.
Dr. David Shulkin:Teresa, what happens when a veteran today who is getting their cannabis from a dispensary goes in to see their primary care physician at the VA. And they do have other medications, other conditions and they want to make sure that the cannabis isn't interacting in an appropriate way that their doctor knows about it. Are you finding that the VA physicians have the freedom to be able to talk about this with their veterans?
Cherissa Jackson:Well, that's that's a really great question because it's a scheduled one. So what we do know Dr. Chopin and I think Raju was the secretary, there's a little booklet is a couple of pages that educates Doctors on cannabis is usage. But nothing really breaks down how cannabis can be interacted with different medications that veterans are on, I have petitioned to the VA to let educators coming to the VA and train doctors on this medicine and how it could affect other medicines that they're prescribing at the VA. And of course, I wasn't able to make that happen, because they're hiding behind schedule one. But you're absolutely right. The doctors don't know the doctors are not into the cannabis education unless they're doing it outside of the VA which they can. But unless they're into the weeds of the net of cannabis and understanding how it can be interactive with other medications, they won't be able to sit with a veteran and say cannabis is going to affect this cannabis is going to affect that without them doing their own research and without them be knowledgeable about it outside of the VA. And that's very unfortunate for veterans because veterans want to openly talk about it. They want to say I'm using cannabis. However, you know, they don't want to expose themselves and not get answers that they're looking for from the from the providers because they know the providers are not going to talk to them about it. So is very important to that because now the physician is at a detriment because he really doesn't he or she really doesn't know the plant. And then the veteran want to talk to the providers, but they know that if they told told them, then there can be other ramifications.
Louis Celli:Let's go back in history, the history and I haven't studied, you know, pharmacy. I'm not a pharmacist, right. I haven't gone to school for this. But I know for a fact that aspirin came from the bark of a tree. I know that Eastern medicine is heavily heavily dependent on on herbs and on different plants. I know that American medicine has its roots, if you will, in plant based medications. So why is it so difficult to believe then that this plant could interact with the body in some way is Is there something that you know, that might provide evidence that shows that The human body can actually process this plant or any of its chemicals in a way that might be beneficial.
Cherissa Jackson:Well, I think what this is an awareness piece that has to happen, first of all our bodies already has an endocannabinoid system. How many people? How many people out here knows that, that we already have an innate endocannabinoid system? That's number one. So our body is is a receptor to endocannabinoids because that's what we were built to do. And so I think by understanding that our bodies already have an endocannabinoid system, it'll be easier for patients for the community to understand that this plant is Endocannabinoid. Right? So if they understood that, then breaking down what endocannabinoids are THC, CBD things of that nature, they understand how those things will connect, when they're in the body, and how they're receptors to the body and how the body will respond to those receptors for chronic pain, for anxiety or depression. But if you're not knowledgeable of that, I will never forget just just educating our organization about the endocannabinoid system. And they would like oh, my God, if our bodies is already equipped to be able to be receptors to this, why is it such a bad stigma about this plant, and that's, that's truly what's happening is because people are not aware. And they don't understand. They're only looking at the stigma of what this plan is, from what they've seen what they've experienced, either two decades before or what they're seeing right now.
Dr. David Shulkin:I want to go back to the focus on the veteran and the VA, rightly so has prioritized the issue of preventing veteran suicide. Congress, rightly so has gotten involved in legislated new bills that say that we need to be expanding our approach to creating innovative ways to reduce veteran suicide, the community has rallied around preventing veteran suicide. Are you saying that cannabis should be an important part of the toolkit to prevent veteran suicide? And if so, make that case right now?
Cherissa Jackson:Absolutely. I made that case to the organization back in January, Dr. silcoon, when I said I want to create their very first veteran's alternative healthcare summit, and that someone was all about cannabis. It was a virtual one day all day summit talking about cannabis and how it can help veterans. And my petition to our organization was we need to provide options to veterans. I'm not saying it is the best option. I'm not saying it's the only option. What I'm saying is there's veterans out here who are looking for holistic options. They don't want to be on opioids. So let us educate them on other options. And cannabis should be one of those options. And as a result of that, that was a summit that was watched by over 21.7 1000 people because they wanted this information, because there was no one else putting out this information on this level. So I do believe with the suicide epidemic that we have to provide options. I remember when the province came out, and I was in those briefings. And now the state of myself when I would jot down cannabis cannabis, we have to consider other things outside of community support outside of therapy. Well, we've done that for years. And where has it gotten us? If anything, we COVID the suicide rate has gotten worse. So what are we doing to provide options for veterans so that a veteran right now is not taking their lives? And I think Canada should be one of those considered options for veterans.
Dr. David Shulkin:Now, did the VA participate in the conference? Did you get feedback from VA clinicians about the summit?
Cherissa Jackson:Yes. So after the summit, the summit was on June 27, which was PTSD Awareness Day, it was a Sunday. On Monday, my phone was ringing off the hook people were dinging me. They said your summit is the talk of the VA. And I was like, really? They're like, Yes, your summit is the talk of the VA, which is what I wanted. I wanted whether or not they disclose they were watching whether or not they wanted to indicate on the signup that they were being a provider or a clinician at the VA. I wanted to capture the attention of the VA in this summit did that. And I was happy to know that I was able to make that successful.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, let me ask you this. Do you think that if you open it up to clinician choice, that there would be VA clinicians would overwhelmingly want to offer this to their veterans?
Cherissa Jackson:Absolutely. I think it is because from top down, everyone is hiding behind schedule one and if you don't open that up To allow providers the capacity to say, I want to be able to have this in my toolbox, because you never know what type of veteran is going to walk into an office, you want to be able to provide solutions. And I think if you loosen up this the rules and regulations and policies and procedures, I think this will allow clinicians and providers to be more willing to attend summits to attend conferences to learn more, so they can add this to their tool belt for veterans.
Louis Celli:You mentioned earlier sucessfully. I followed her work as well. And she recently published the results of her embattled study, which could be the subject of an entirely different podcast, we could we could dive into why that struggled the way it did. But I met her I towards some state grow facilities, and I was able to meet some of her patients in here some of those stories. And I'm wondering, can you tell me about any stories of veterans that you've worked with that have that have used cannabis in some medicinal way?
Cherissa Jackson:Absolutely. I know, one story I tell all the time is a veteran. He was a Marine, he was using a lot of opioids for pain, PTSD. And he said, It wasn't until someone introduced him to cannabis. And he was like, sure, he said, I was on 10 different medication. From all of my conditions prescribed by the VA, I was tired of taking all 10 of these medications, I was constantly getting, you know, having to do labs because it could affect either his kidney or his liver because of the side effects. And he was just taking charge of his own life and being his own advocate. And he said, You know what, I don't want to do this anymore. And when he was introduced to cannabis, I'm so happy to report that he's no longer on any of those medications. And that's what cannabis can do. And that's kind of the story I hear a lot in the veteran community that either they are completely off of medications that the VA prescribed, or they're off of those opioids, which we all know really does really a lot of damage to the body. So yeah, there's there's lots of stories, not just from veterans, but the community as a whole, that people are using this as an alternative to a lot of the medications that they're being prescribed.
Dr. David Shulkin:Sure. So let's go to your crystal ball. And tell us a little bit about how long do you think it's going to be? Before we see a change in federal law before we see a place where a veteran can go anywhere in this country, and get prescribed the right type of medication to be able to help them?
Cherissa Jackson:Well, I think it's twofold. Dr. shulkin? I think his scheduling has to be changed. Now when I think that's going to happen, to be quite honest with you, I don't think it's going to happen in this administration. I really don't I was I was hopeful. With this new administration. I was hopeful because BP Harris, you know, that was one of the things that she was running on is her cannabis efforts in California. However, we've been, you know, almost a year now, and I haven't heard or seen anything happen. So I really don't think it's going to happen. And during this administration, what I do see though, is a lot of states legalizing a lot of states coming back on for medicinal and to me, if a state comes on additional bestel a good win for us. All it requires is for veterans to understand how do I get a car, because my whole advocacy is about getting them the medication, getting them the right medication, and helping them understand what that medication is doing for them. So I don't think legalization is going to happen during this administration. If it does, that's a great win for everyone. But I just don't see it happening in this administration.
Louis Celli:So according to the according to the DEA, and the reason that they have it on schedule one, the argument is for a schedule one drug that it has no medicinal purposes within the plant whatsoever, and it's considered to be highly addictive. I'll tell you early on in my in my research with this, one of the one of the videos that I watched was a video about a young girl named Charlotte and and I think it's probably one of the most famous examples of how CBD can be used for epilepsy. And subsequently, they ended up making a special brand of CBD for her called Charlotte's Web. And I watched on television, as this young girl, I think she was, I don't know, five or six at the time was having such a violent seizures, that it was causing brain damage. And then her her parents would take this this brown, tar like ointment and squeeze it under her tongue and really within two or three minutes, she would calm down, and then she'd be playing like nothing ever happened. And the damage that she had suffered prior to that was so severe that it did damage her her brain. But the problem was that her Emily was acting illegally and actually had to leave the state they actually had to move. So I i'm, i'm curious as to what the argument can still be in order to support this, this plant being on schedule one.
Cherissa Jackson:And you know, I really don't think there is an argument, I think we haven't undone what history has put in place. And during the Nixon administration, if we go back through history, this is when the scheduling one actually happened. And no one overturn that, because we're seeing that it does have medicinal properties. Like I mentioned earlier, it does help with epilepsy, I know kids are using it. It does help with cancer patient with nausea and vomiting. It does help with chronic pain, it does help to help with anxiety and depression. But no one has overturn and undo what the past administrations have done. And it started with Nixon, and no one changed the scheduling because they're hiding behind it not having medicinal purposes, or is addictive. And when you look at what's the schedule one, you're talking, you're talking opioids, you're talking cocaine, you're talking some really heavy hitters, and I have not to this date, found or seen an article that says marijuana is addictive.
Louis Celli:Yeah, it's math. I haven't seen it. So heroin. Yeah, exactly. All on schedule one.
Cherissa Jackson:Yeah. So why is marijuana in that category? It's in that category, because that's where it started. And no one's been brave enough to turn it over? Yeah. So
Louis Celli:let me ask you a question. So in your experience, based on all of the veterans or patients who even aren't veterans, right, this isn't just a veteran issue. But of all the patients that you've been in touch with? How many of them do you think would benefit from a good scientific study that was able to pick apart What is it like 140 different chemicals that are in the plant and be able to figure out which receptor works on which chemical? How many of the people that you have come in contact with could be helped by some form of this plant, whether it's an intoxicant or not.
Cherissa Jackson:I was saved from the veterans that we get coming to our heal program. Again, these veterans are coming to us desperate, they're coming to us desperate either to get appointments or to the VA, they're coming to us desperate because they're needing therapy, or they're coming to us because they want a solution. They're desperate. I think every veteran that come to the heal program from that is having mental health challenges. He definitely benefit from this plan. Again, not everybody's going to have the same efficacy as the other person. But I think there is benefits to this plant. Whether or not you're having Sleep Disorder, a lot of veterans leave the military with sleep disorder. Cannabis, is that,
Louis Celli:right? We're we're coming up on the on the end of our time, but I want to make sure that our listeners understand if this is important and why it's important. So can you share with our listeners a couple of things, one, why is this important to them? Why should they be paying attention? And what is it that they can do if they find that this is something that they think is important?
Cherissa Jackson:I think this is a very important topic to have. Because unlike other opioids, unlike other drugs, this is a medicine. Let's start there. First, cannabis is considered a medicine, no different than high blood pressure medication, no different than diabetes medication, it is a medicine. And if you think of it from that perspective, if you have a condition that you're taking medications for, I believe you're doing yourself a disservice if you're not evaluating whether cannabis can help replace that medication that you're taking, because it's a plant. And I think watching what's happening, understanding what's happening, educating yourself about the plant and seeing if you want to take that dive is important. And one thing I preach to all patients is they're their own advocate, regardless of what I say, regardless of what the doctors say, you're your own advocate, and you're in charge of your own life. And this is something that you want to try. Educate yourself, find out what you need to do. Follow the laws, of course, because I would not want you to, to go to jail because they're breaking laws. And just make sure you know what you're doing and understand what you're doing. If you don't do the research, go online, find a clinical director, find a bud tender, find a cannabis educator out here that can help you understand what this plant can do. And it will definitely save your life if you're having some mental health challenges is what I believe.
Louis Celli:So I really want to thank you for being here today. You actually answered the last question I was going to going to ask you, thank you so much. And if if anybody out there wants to contact you to learn a little bit more about this. Do you have Do you have a website on the amvets website where they can go and visit to learn a little bit more about your project?
Cherissa Jackson:Absolutely is called m vets heal. program.org actually plays the veterans alternative healthcare summit panels there. So if a veteran is still not under stain and what this plant can do all of the panel. Our panels are there, including Dr. Sue Cicely she was one of our keynote speakers. Dr. Montel Williams was one of our keynote speakers. We got, we had a couple of NFL stars who came on and talked about their stories and what they're doing in the cannabis space. So if they just wanted to learn about the plant, they can go to M vet school program.org. It's there on my website, and they can watch the panels understand as much as they want, or even just send me a direct email. And I'll answer it. Teresa, thank
Louis Celli:you so very much. And thank you for joining us today and
Dr. David Shulkin:speaking about this very important topic. And thanks for your continued advocacy on behalf of veterans and serving veterans. Thank you so much Dr. stuff, and I appreciate it.
Louis Celli:That is all the time that we have for today. Hey, join us next week we're going to be talking about a very serious topic. We're going to be talking about veteran suicide with Ben Sue it. He's a PhD candidate who wrote a paper on the cost of war, and the more than 30,000 veterans who have taken their lives during this conflict. You're not going to want to miss this episode next week.
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