Chris Madaio and Will Hubbard join Secretary Shulkin and Lou to discuss the successes of the GI bill. They also discuss those educational institutions, who for profit motive, have acted as predators towards service members and veterans. Chris and Will both hold Vice President positions at Veterans Education Success (https://vetsedsuccess.org), a non-profit of bipartisan policy experts, academic researchers, lawyers and advocates dedicated to bridging the military-civilian divide to ensure career and education success for military families.
Chris Madaio and Will Hubbard join Secretary Shulkin and Lou to discuss the successes of the GI bill. They also discuss those educational institutions, who for profit motive, have acted as predators towards service members and veterans. Chris and Will both hold Vice President positions at Veterans Education Success (https://vetsedsuccess.org), a non-profit of bipartisan policy experts, academic researchers, lawyers and advocates dedicated to bridging the military-civilian divide to ensure career and education success for military families.
The quality institutions, the public schools, you know, in our states that they should want servicemembers and veterans, for their schools because of all the great things that they're going to bring to that institution. So I think absolutely it should make them attractive students, but to the predatory institutions. Unfortunately, they're the ones that are going after veterans and service members for the wrong reasons to add to their balance sheet. There are a number of institutions, many of them in the for profit space because of the profit motive incentive of the owners. We've seen such aggressive recruiting from these schools, and this comes up in a variety of ways.
Announcer:Welcome to the policy vets podcast, engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of policy development for America's veterans. With your host former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David shulkin. And the Executive Director of Policy beds, Louis Celli. Today's guest Chris Mondeo, and will hover from veterans education success. Chris is the Vice President for legal affairs, and will is the Vice President for veterans and military policy and formerly the Chief of Staff of the Student Veterans of America.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, do you know what Clint Eastwood and Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist have in common?
Dr. David Shulkin:You know, this time? I actually think I know the answer to one of your questions. They both use the GI Bill to go to college.
Louis Celli:That's great, nice working secretary. Okay. All right. Here's another one. How much did the GI Bill Pay when it was first signed into law by Roosevelt?
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, you know, I gonna have to guess on this, you know, maybe, you know,$30 a week, is what they would pay. I know that they're paying about $300 a week now.
Louis Celli:How did you, you are generous, you're more generous. And Roosevelt was it was about 20 bucks a week,
Dr. David Shulkin:money bucks a week. But it went a lot further in those days, I think
Louis Celli:that it did. And you know, within within the first seven years, as a matter of fact, about 8 million veterans took advantage of this, which really was about half the veteran population at the time. And the total, this is the impact that it had the total US degree holders, more than doubled between 1940 and 1950. Because of the GI Bill,
Dr. David Shulkin:yeah, just imagine if we didn't have all those people with that type of education. I don't think this country would be what it is today. So this has had a great impact. But back then, as you know, the GI Bill paid money directly to the veteran and the veteran could use it wherever they wanted. It's now a lot more complicated. And so with that complication, is always problems associated with the complexity.
Louis Celli:taxall Absolutely. Right. And you know, the GI Bill was updated. It was about a decade ago, about 10 years ago. And it created a whole cottage industry of marketing programs directed at veterans from schools who just wanted to tap into that money.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah. And there's been a lot of good updates. You know, Senator Jim Webb ensured that the GI Bill would call would cover the cost at least up to the state tuition levels so that people could get a good quality education and make sure that they had enough money to cover the tuition. So we've seen a lot of changes and of course, that bill that I was probably most proud of when I was secretary was the forever GI bill the post 911 GI bill because that made some really important changes and I know that's gonna change the lives of millions of families going forward.
Louis Celli:It's absolutely true and colleges that you know, never saw veterans that a revenue as a revenue stream before started to aggressively market to them and you know, all they wanted was a GI Bill money.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, and you know, we did see a lot of these pop up universities and online for profit universities really acting as bad actors and taking advantage of veterans and I remember having to take away the accreditation and pulling them away and and that was hard to do. Because at that, you knew it was right to begin to start shutting these people, these universities down, but there were veterans enrolled in those universities that you knew you were going to hurt. And so so it was a difficult situation, but I'll tell you, I remember Senator Dick Durbin from Illinois, he was pretty tough on this. He just said, Look, you got to deal with these bad actors. We got to get rid of them. They're taking advantage of our veterans and you know, I I agreed with them. So we we had to make some tough decisions, but I don't think we got rid of all the bad guys. There's that for sure there's a lot out there,
Louis Celli:there's always going to be someone that finds a way to skirt the system. As a matter of fact, I think we're going to hear a little bit more about that today. There was a rule and I you know, even when I was with the Legion, I remember going What is this 9010 rule? What does that mean? And it was hard to understand and it really mattered it turned out to be important.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, I'm I'm super glad that we have veteran advocates out there Student Veterans of America is certainly a strong advocacy group for veterans. And we're going to hear today from two of really our heroes you know, the these guys who just are out there working to make sure that no one's taking advantage of veterans, well, Hubbard, and Chris Matteo, who are from the veterans education success, and they're really like a watchdog. I mean, they know these rules inside now they know, when universities are taking advantage of veterans. I'm so glad they're out there and I'm glad we're gonna have him on the show today.
Louis Celli:That's absolutely right. And the founder of veteran veterans education success, Carrie Wolford is one of our policy that's fellows.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, she's a superstar she and she is fearless low, she took the industry head on in some of these are well funded players. And she just said, Look, I'm gonna, I'm going to do what's right, and I'm not going to look back. And this group has been pretty successful in getting laws passed in, you know, making sure that our veterans are protected when they use this really important benefit the GI Bill.
Louis Celli:Yeah, you know, I've worked extensively with Kerry, and will and really a number of their team. And I can just tell you that they know their stuff. You know, even when I was with the Legion, I would let them take the lead on a number of these issues, because this was all they focused on. And they knew this issue really better than anyone else.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think when you look at the impact of VA, everyone thinks about health care, but they don't really remember enough about the GI home loans and the impact that's had on people getting to own their own homes and raise families. And the GI Bill, these are things that are not only important to veterans and their families for generations, but they're an important part of why we can continue to have a voluntary military. You know, people don't realize it, you know, these 1% of Americans raise their hands are protecting the 99% of us who aren't serving, and there has to be some real benefits for them when they leave. And these are important benefits, you know,
Louis Celli:you bring up a really good point. And that is that, you know, there was a lot of focus put on health care, there was a lot of focus at the VA put on Veterans Disability benefits. And that's why I think I'm not even really sure where we came down on this. But there was a big push at one point to try to kind of carve out veterans benefits under one administration, and then put everything else like education, entrepreneurship, and all that under a separate administration, and really creating four administration's under under the VA umbrella instead of three.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, Lou, I always worry about creating more bureaucracy. But I do have to say that education and the GI Bill does not get the attention, sometimes it deserves. And I remember when we finally passed the post 911 GI Bill, I went to meet the President on a Saturday morning to have a bill signing ceremony that American Legion was there as the other VSOs. And I was really excited to finally give it some attention because the press was there when the President was there. But that was the Saturday morning of Charlottesville. And so no one even wanted to talk about the GI Bill bill naturally. And once again, that never got the attention that it deserved. So there is some merit to your idea.
Louis Celli:And hopefully our listeners will will find this useful. I think a lot more people are going to pay attention to the GI Bill now, especially considering, you know, not only the money that's being invested in it from the American taxpayer, but also, you know, the fraud within the industry that that seems to be siphoning off some of that money. I'm really, really glad. You know that we've got our guests today that can help us walk through some of that stuff.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, let's get started and have them tell us about this.
Louis Celli:That sounds great. Well, Chris, Hey, welcome to the policy. That's podcast.
Unknown:Thanks for having us, Lou. It's a real real pleasure to be here with you both.
Chris Madaio:Thank you so much.
Dr. David Shulkin:Thanks to both of you for being here. And we're going to be talking today About the GI Bill, it actually may be one of the most important piece of legislation that's ever been passed in terms of affecting the future of the country. So will you want to just tell us a little bit about the history of the GI Bill?
Unknown:Yeah, it's pretty unique. And there's a lot of untold stories associated with it, I'll take you back to 1944 with the servicemen's readjustment Act, which was actually written, handwritten on a napkin in the Mayflower Hotel in downtown Washington, DC. The fact that original version was comprised of a suite of benefits. So that included things like the home loan, business loans, and then of course, what we know of the GI Bill today as education benefits. And in fact, the very week of the D day invasion, a house and senate conference committee were completely deadlocked on that bill. And it actually took a congressman from Georgia who's back home, recovering from an illness, he was rushed in to cast the final vote. And so that was the beginning of the original GI Bill. And that laid the foundation and the groundwork for what you now know today as the GI Bill for education benefits. Throughout the years, there have been multiple, multiple iterations of the GI Bill. And it's just a really neat and storied history.
Louis Celli:But well, the, you know, the GI bills come a long way. I think the original GI bill payments were what, 20 bucks a week or something. And that's all right.
Unknown:So it was about $500 a year as an annual payment that covered things like tuition fees, even a housing subsistence to make sure that students could go to school, but it's certainly not what students can look forward to today, the post 911 GI bill, which is considered the the most current iteration, sometimes referred to even as the forever GI Bill, that version of the GI Bill is incredibly generous, it covers tuition, housing fees, and really affords the ability for any student to go to school that they otherwise wouldn't be able to.
Dr. David Shulkin:Let's just spend a little bit of time talking about the impact of the GI Bill and lose supplies me with all sorts of trivia that I would never know. So apparently, because of the GI Bill, we have 14 Nobel Prize winners, three supreme court justices, three presidents actually use the GI Bill 12 senators, 24 Pulitzer Prize winners, 238,000 teachers, 91,000, scientists, 67, doctors, and it goes on and on. So this is clearly an impactful bill, that has brought a lot of greatness to advancing American science, medicine, education in all aspects. How about today, how many veterans are actually using the GI Bill today.
Unknown:So today, it's quite a few more. And you know the difference, if you just look at the history of it, for the original GI Bill, it had covered about $14 billion total of the entire education benefit, whereas nowadays, it's approximately 12 billion annually. So quite a bit more, of course, the cost of college has gone up quite a bit. And at any given moment, you've got approximately 1 million GI Bill students, roughly 95% of which are veterans themselves. remaining percent are typically spouses or children who have the GI Bill from your loved one. But it's it's covered quite a bit. And I mean, those are big numbers, even in DC,
Louis Celli:some would argue that education is really much more accessible today. And our military is far more educated than it has been in any time of our history. Do we really still need the GI Bill? No, it's
Unknown:a good point, Lou. But understand that about two thirds of veterans going to school today are actually first generation college students. That means that the first person in their entire family has had the opportunity to go to college, and with the rising costs of colleges, in which have truly skyrocketed. And just to give you a sense of it, they've gone up more than 25% in the last 10 years alone, it's really making it possible for many people to go to college that otherwise wouldn't. I'll use myself, for example, I grew up just outside of Chicago, and I myself use the Montgomery GI bill to help cover the cost of my college. And so it's really offering a shot at the middle class and beyond.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, I would also think, and, Chris, maybe you want to weigh in on this. But I would also think that when we have a completely voluntary, military, that this is an important part of why people might choose to raise their hand and join the military that if they didn't have the GI Bill, they may not have the option of being able to go to college. Is that an important part of this the recruitment of high quality people in toward military? Well, absolutely.
Chris Madaio:I think that it's certainly something that we hear our organization hears from veterans and service members that it's important to them, and it's an important thing that they can transfer benefits to family members or children for them to use for their higher education future. So certainly it's a very important thing. I think every veteran Nickerson concerning the military should look at.
Dr. David Shulkin:And let me ask you something else, Chris, going back to you. You know, every good bill like the GI Bill, the forever GI Bill has some unintended consequences. And so you have a veteran now that has a funding source. And universities and colleges and online schools say, Well, this is the type of student that we really want, because we don't have to worry about them paying their bill. We don't have to give them financial aid, because Uncle Sam's going to do it. Does that make a veteran sort of a target as a as essentially somebody that they're going after very much to recruit?
Will Hubbard:Certainly to the predatory institutions? I think, absolutely. I mean, certainly to the quality institutions, the public schools, in our states, they should want servicemembers and veterans, for their schools because of all the great things that they're going to bring to that institution. So I think absolutely, it should make them attractive students, but to the predatory institutions, unfortunately, they're the ones that are going after veterans and service members for the wrong reasons to add to their balance sheet. There are various reasons for that, one of them is that because the schools know that the federal government is paying for all of the program, they often don't offer the same discounts or financial aid through the school that they might offer to other students. So that's very problematic. And it's only a waste of taxpayer money and a waste of the eligibility that the veteran has for their GI Bill. And the federal government understands that there's a need and Congress in the past as written laws to ensure that Veterans Services are not inappropriately targeted. And one of these was called the 9010 rule. And this was a rule that's supposed to ensure that federal that a school does not load 100% on federal dollars, and basically funds itself completely off of loans, grants and other federal sources of money. In order to show that it actually has some measure of quality, it should be able to get employers to pay for their employees to go to the school, it should be able to find people who are able to pay out of pocket and believe that the school has quality. So certainly this This law was enacted. However, it had a gaping loophole for a long time. And that loophole basically allowed GI Bill and other earned military benefits to count as if they were not federal money to be in the bucket that allows the school to to pass this test, which is supposed to include all federal sources by kind of tricking the system. So very recently, this loophole was thankfully closed, because we really saw that as a very problematic reason that schools were really targeting veterans and service members because they could kind of game this law in order to pass a very strict test with the federal government.
Louis Celli:So Chris, tell us a little bit more about some of these schools. So you explained a little bit about what the 9010 loophole means. And again, that's policy wonk stuff, right. But for the average for the average consumer, for the average veteran, you know, what that really means is that a school needs to be at least competitive enough so that so that people want to pay tuition to get a good education there. But what happens with these schools that you call predatory? What does that mean?
Chris Madaio:Yeah, absolutely. So there are a number of institutions, many of them in the for profit space, meaning they are owned by either, you know, they're a publicly traded company, or they're owned by owners who take profit out of the company to put in their own pockets on like the nonprofits, schools, and the public schools that many folks have heard about. And these are institutions because of the profit motive incentive of the owners, their drive to recruit, basically put as many butts or as you might say, as is in the classes as we've heard, whistleblowers tell us has been their directive. We've seen such aggressive recruiting from these schools and this comes up in a variety of ways. One of them we hear very often from veterans that come to organization and tell us stories is that they are pressured and told start Enroll now start now you know, if you don't enroll right now, you're going to miss the start of classes, when in actuality many career schools and online schools and many of the for profit schools have what's called rolling admissions mean you can really start any time and it's not like a traditional school where you have to start like in August or you have to start in January. So you know, that's one thing. We also see very emotional and manipulative recruitment schools using what they themselves have called a pain. funneled to try to basically pressure students, potential students, including veterans to kind of feel the painful moments of their own lives as a reason to enroll in the institution. And unfortunately, too many of the admissions, you know, when I would think of as admissions counselors, or many people might think of as an admissions counselor are really no more than a car salesman, the effective equivalent of a salesperson that, and that's just wrong. I think many of us when we go into a car dealership, you expect, you're going to get sold something and you need to negotiate. When you deal with an admissions representative in school, you think they're looking out for what's also best for you. And if you're not a good fit for that school, maybe they would tell you that you're not a good fit, when, in fact, at some of the predatory schools, it's simply not the case, they are pressured to meet numbers, and they are pressured to recruit as many people as they possibly can.
Dr. David Shulkin:Let's just talk a little bit more about this, because this is probably a new concept to a lot of our listeners, how many predatory schools are out there? And whose job it is? Is it to police them in the end to protect the veterans?
Will Hubbard:Well, there's quite a lot of bad schools out there, unfortunately. I mean, there are 1000s of schools generally. So there's quite a bit and there's some very, very large institutions. So the who is a cops on the beat, I mean, the Department of Ed, there are federal agencies, you have the Department of Education, and the Department of Veterans Affairs really shouldn't be the ones policing some of these schools. But far too often, we don't see those agencies take a strong look at the bad actors in the space, especially when they get numerous complaints from veterans from active duty service members, their families and other students. So too often it falls to state agencies, state attorneys general have taken action in this space to other federal agencies, like the Federal Trade Commission, or the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau have taken action in this space. But there's just unfortunately, too many bad ones out there. And it takes too long to catch some of them that by the time students have used their GI Bill eligibility, oftentimes, if it's too late to get it back.
Louis Celli:So Well, I mean, it also falls to the advocates, right to the to the folks that, you know, veterans join organizations, and they pay their dues, and that and those dues go to some of the folks here in Washington, DC. And in some cases, similar to your organization, your organization has been pretty proactive in advocating, you know, to kind of fix some of these loopholes in some of these laws, haven't you?
Will Hubbard:So that's exactly right. I think the big challenge here is we're facing a multi billion dollar industry. So as a veterans advocate, you can imagine our salaries are not in the billions. I wish, but certainly not the case. And all of us are in it for a mission, we're in it, because we care about veterans, many of us are veterans, we're looking out for our sisters and brothers in arms. And so that's why we do the job. The other side, the industry is full of folks who are essentially K Street lobbyists who are guns for hire, and they're making millions of dollars. So whereas our organization might spend, you know, a couple 1000 per year on lobbying, they're spending to the tune of millions. So it's an unfair fight. But ultimately, you just have to lean on the fact that we have 1000s of veterans behind us who are calling for better accountability, more enforcement, and they're looking for a stamp of approval, because when they go and use their GI Bill, they're thinking to themselves, if this program is approved by VA, or the Department of Education, it must be a good program, literally, the government has said I'm allowed to go spend money there. Unfortunately, we know that that's not always the case. And so that's where I think advocates can have the opportunity to step in and make sure that the federal government is in fact enforcing some of the laws that are on the books and making sure that there is accountability.
Dr. David Shulkin:So let's talk about what it means to a veteran if a veteran chooses the wrong school picks a predatory school. What are some of the dangers? What are some of the impacts that can actually have on a veteran?
Unknown:Look I was so the big difference between a good school that might have let's say, a guidance counselor or recruiter versus an aggressive school that has aggressive marketing might be calling you six or seven times a day, even more, we've actually heard the differences if the individual you're talking to at that school has a fiduciary incentive or not, that will be the big difference. So for example, if the person you're talking to is going to make a profit or going to meet a sales quota by bringing you in, that's probably not a good school. They're they're not out to advise you. They're out to stalk you. And that's quite a big difference. As Chris talked about the pain funnel, they oftentimes use these tactics and techniques that might take many members of the military actually look fairly similar to interrogation techniques, or even psychological warfare. Those are schools you want to stay away from.
Louis Celli:So Chris, can Can you tell us a little bit about some of the legislative victories that that your organization can can really take credit for? I mean, I've been in this space a long time, I've been advocating for close to 20 years. And the last two years have shown more pieces of legislation that have been introduced and passed to protect veterans in the GI Bill that I've ever seen before. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Will Hubbard:Absolutely. I think one of the most recent things was the American rescue plan, close that loophole that I was talking about before to stop or try and stop some of this predatory recruitment in order for the schools to meet this department of education metrics. So that was one thing we worked very hard on. Also organization worked with states and sometimes states can do a lot of work in protecting veterans. Maryland's before the federal government did in Maryland, the state of Maryland passed a similar loophole closure on 9010 law, so So certainly, working with the federal government to stop, things like that, also working on law enforcement agencies to try to take action. The FTC recently had a big announcement that they were going to put basically for profit schools on notice that bad conduct would be penalised. And we definitely called for that and really appreciate the FTC action. And of course, one of the big things we push for is the protected GI Bill act. I'm in love. We'll talk about that.
Unknown:That's a great point, Chris. Yeah. So the protect the GI Bill act was really a landmark law that looked at quite a few different mechanisms for accountability enforcement. And these are not necessarily anything, they're not laws that would surprise you, for example, if a veteran is applying to a school, can they expect a good outcome? Are their rates of growth? Are the graduation rates strong? And if the answer is no, then maybe that veteran shouldn't be going to that school. So there's quite a few different things that the protective GI bill does. That's one example. And I'll actually point to another, which is a more recent example, which is the Isaacson row law. This law took a quite a few provisions of previous laws, and it tightened it up and made sure that any of these loopholes were closed, it made sure that veterans could count on the federal government to provide a quality education if they're going to use their GI Bill there. And ultimately, it helps the veteran know that when they're going to go to school, that they're actually going to have a strong outcome. And that's a career path. We don't want folks going to school just for that check in the box or just to get a diploma, if they're not going to have a strong career afterwards. What's the point? And so nowadays, we're trying to help the federal government work with student veterans nationwide to make sure that they know they can expect that in the end,
Louis Celli:Wasn't there a recent law passed as well, that sought to reimburse veterans for GI Bill money that had been squandered on schools that that took their money and then didn't give them a degree or closed or gave them a bogus degree?
Unknown:Yeah, you're exactly right loose. So there's a couple different provisions that do that. The two main laws that that address that directly are the forever GI Bill, that's the Harry W. Cole marry Act, which was a couple of years ago. And then the more recent iteration, which is the Isaacson row law, which did a bunch of technical fixes, made a bunch of technical changes, and really tightened up the law in general. And so there's three specific periods, that if your school closes during one of those specific periods, then you have the opportunity to actually apply for your benefits to be restored. And so that restoration of benefits is what makes it possible that if a veteran goes to school finds out they were defrauded, and that the school was not offering what they had initially promised that they could get their GI Bill back. That's a huge win for us. It's a huge win for veterans. And really, it's a huge win for America.
Will Hubbard:Absolutely. And I think it's incredibly important. And we've spoken to a lot of veterans who have had their school clothes on them attending the school, in the midst of their education, and then boom, it just collapses. Unfortunately, we see that a lot at the for profit schools, because the owners are sucking money out as soon as the ship seems to be taking on water, so to speak. So that's certainly one problem. However, I'd like to flag an issue for folks is if you're at a school, and it's predatory, you feel like you You were lied to by the school to get yourself to go there, you were told, you know, you're not going to have to take out any loans. Because the GI Bill is going to cover everything. And then that doesn't turn out to be true or you were told that you're going to be able to get a job, we have a high quality program and that doesn't turn out to be true. All things that we've heard. And the Department of Education has a program where if you have student loans and the school lies to you and they agree, they will cancel your student loans. The VA has no such program and it is ridiculous that the Department of Education can can make a finding that a school deceive someone committed a misrepresentation broke the law. Yes, the person's gi eligibility cannot be restored.
Dr. David Shulkin:Or you guys answered my question you had done so much with closing the loophole and advocating, I thought, there's nothing left to do. You know, you guys did it all. But but but you just identified an important issue that VA could be doing more here and should be doing more and, and that certainly is one of the ways we want to, we want to thank you both for continuing to advocate This is such an important program and we don't want to ever see a veteran being taking advantage of I know that's what you guys stand for. And we're, we're there to help amplify your message. So thanks so much for joining us today. really terrific Gabby on policy meds.
Will Hubbard:Absolutely. It's a pleasure to be here.
Chris Madaio:Yeah. Thanks for having
Louis Celli:us. All right. Thanks, guys. Right. And that really is all the time that we have for today. Next week, we have a surprise for you. We have a guest host. And in addition, we're going to be introducing a brand new organization in the United States that originated over in the UK. It's called Bravo, Victor. You're going to want to hear this. They're doing some very exciting research. We'll see you next week.
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