When I when I talked to folks I said we are not here to take your country we are here to help you keep your country and you have to have that will to do that. If you should be angry at anyone, it is your government. It is your military. It is your police force that abandon the situation. Knowing that 250 People can come into town on Jeepneys and, and motorcycles and control your country is ludicrous. I wanted the the Afghans to be just as dedicated to their own way of life is I am to protecting mine.
Charlie Malone:Welcome to the policy that's podcast engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void and support a policy development for America's veterans. With your host former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David Shulkin. And the Executive Director of Policy beds, Louis Celli, today's guest Lieutenant General Walter Gaskin, the secretary for the North Carolina Department of Military and Veterans Affairs.
Louis Celli:Wellness. Mr. Secretary, we have a really interesting guest this afternoon.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think so I think people are going to enjoy hearing from Lieutenant General Gaskin, Secretary Gaskin. And it's really, he's just a great example and role model. So many who have given his entire career to the military, in this case, the Marines, but isn't done serving once he retires. And so he found a way to continue to really use his experience and contribute by leading the Veterans Affairs and the military affairs areas in North Carolina, which is such a important state in terms of people who have, you know, served and continued to serve their country.
Louis Celli:He couldn't be more right. And what an illustrious career. I mean, he has served with, I mean, really, all of the, you know, all of the top generals that people have heard in the news over the past couple of years, all of the all the folks that really led the effort, you know, through at least the second half of you know, the the Afghan war. And he's got some pretty strong opinions on on how that ended.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, there's no doubt I, when you serve as many, as many tours of duty as he has, I think he was in Afghanistan five times, you're not going to just watch what happened and not have some strong feelings about it. And particularly, he's interacting every day, with those who have served over there and hearing from people that he served with so, so I think getting his opinions on that is going to be really important. But one of the things I think is really also important is for people to understand, we haven't really spent a lot of time talking to our leaders in our states, we tend to spend our time at policy events on the federal issues. But so many people get their services right from their State Department's of Veteran Affairs and understanding how that can impact the experience of veterans is something that we really want to do on this podcast.
Louis Celli:Yeah, and I think to be fair, you know, the federal government, specifically the Department of Veterans Affairs, does a fairly good job of, you know, explaining what benefits are available at the federal level. There are veteran service officers that are consistently out there in the community, helping veterans navigate their way through the federal bureaucracy in the system. But I think to your point, there, there isn't as much focus on the state level. However, the state level benefits in some cases, depending on when you served when you returned, can far outweigh what the federal government has to offer. I mean, between education benefits, welcome home bonuses, state veterans homes, just a whole plethora of benefits that are there for, you know, for returning service members that in many cases, they have no idea even exist.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah. And I think you're right, that the state really creates the environment where veterans feel welcome. They feel respected by their state, and those are very visible programs. So I think having people understand how the federal government and the state governments can work better together and coordinate is something that probably people don't spend enough time on. Sure. And
Louis Celli:what a powerful position, right he he oversees not only the veteran portfolio, but also the military portfolio. I think he said at one point, he's got like 590 or 790 miles of you know, military installation to oversee. Can you imagine if when you were Secretary of Veterans Affairs, you also have The Department of Defense Can you can you just imagine the cooperation that that would have been that you would have been able to command and the things you would have been able to get done?
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, you know, I was very fortunate that when I was there, General Mattis was the Secretary of Defense, because he always said that if the Secretary of the VA wanted something that they should consider it like he wanted it. And so we had just tremendous cooperation. I think that we got more done between the agencies than I had seen previously, just because of a coordination of approaches and, and the belief that these two departments need to work closer together. So I love that structure in North Carolina, I think Secretary Gaskin has an ability to demonstrate that he can get things done. And that, you know, as we all know, every member of the active duty one day is going to be a veteran. So, so it just sort of makes sense to me.
Louis Celli:Get in what a personality, right? He does not have any problems whatsoever, about telling you what he thinks, how he feels, giving his opinion. Just really, and such such a gentleman really, yeah.
Dr. David Shulkin:So let's hear directly from Secretary gasca. Yeah, let's get him in
Louis Celli:here. Secretary Gaskin, welcome to the policy. That's podcast. It really it's an honor to have you here with us, sir.
Walter Gaskin:Well, it's really great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Dr. David Shulkin:I also want to welcome you to the podcast, Mr. Secretary, and, you know, every state is organized a little bit differently. In North Carolina, your job is not only to oversee all the veterans programs, but also all the military installations and the interactions that happen with their families. That's really quite a broad portfolio of activities. Can you tell us a little bit about how you see your job and, and everything that's included in it,
Walter Gaskin:I think you hit a very important point, we're only three states in the union, that have where the Secretary is in charge of both military affairs and Veterans Affairs. But I think that that as an added ingredient. One is that I can guarantee you that every active duty military is going to be a veteran one day. So it bridged that transition of coming out and so that you are you becoming a veteran, but it's a continuation of services and benefits that you've earned in the state. But what it also does is, as is probably best described by the commander, Eric gorilla of 18th, Airborne Corps, when he said when you know, the days of when those that come aboard the the installation, close all of the of the walls and, and become an entity are over. And in fact, the stack he indicated prior to COVID, he had 108,000 that came through the gates of Fort Bragg daily. But he also has 70% of those that come aboard the base, that leaves the installation, deploy our work lives in the surrounding communities. Therefore, the communities are integrated. So they have what they kind of have a feel for where you're going to leave, if you transition out, and reason why we want to be the place of record. The place where they decide to live, is how we treat them when they transition out and how we treat the veterans that are already there. So and having that connection, makes it very easy.
Louis Celli:General Gaskin before we get too deep into the middle of affairs in North Carolina, you know, for those listeners who have not had the honor of serving with you, would you mind telling them a little bit about your Marine Corps career?
Walter Gaskin:Yes, I mean, I spent 39 years in the Marine Corps, but what mix in particular, I came out a little Jim Campbell Jr. and Jacksonville, North Carolina, and 25 of those 39 years was right there at the gym. All of my major commands from platoon to division command was canceled June. I've also lived in the community. In Jacksonville. Two of my sons graduated from the high school in the community. I've had some major command deployment combat with the division in Iraq and Anbar province to Chairman and an acting chairman of the Military Committee of NATO. overseeing all of NATO operations, and Africa, Afghanistan, as well as fighting pirates off the coast of Somalia, and dealing with some of the stuff that is happening in the news now with Bella routes on the eastern coast of NATO, not the standing that we had in the in the Balkans. And so, so I've had a great career, and, and also had some great commands to include the staff duty as the deputy director of the of, of working on the joint staff, and that relationship, working across the river, as we call it with NSA, and also working with the combatant commanders and in their dealings.
Dr. David Shulkin:Well, that is an amazing number of experiences and amazing career, and great public service to the country. So thank you for all that. North Carolina, of course, is just that amazing state when it comes to people who stand up and serve their country. You have, I believe, seven active military bases in the state. You have a lot of veterans. So when you add it all up, how many? How many people? Are you responsible for between those still an active duty and those who are veterans?
Walter Gaskin:Well, if you just if you look at the Veterans alone, about 725,000, if you add their families, as we always do, it's about 1.2 million. And then if you look at the over 700,000 active duty members, between those seven installations. You see, when I came aboard one of the major concerns that the the General Assembly have, and the folks in the agencies have is brat. You know, what is BRAC, you know, basic alignment and closure. But it's not the BRAC of all the realignment that the military makes is according to beat meet their mission. Also, it talks about being able to help them train at home. Well, one of the things that these commanders face is that can I train at home? Or do I have to take the unit and the army case and cinema TMTC or foot Polk and Louisiana? Marines? Do they go out to Twentynine Palms and the Air Force? Do they have to go out to Nevada to do training? Can we do that, and the state of North Carolina has done a very good job of for adding that three dimensional training assets so that you can train at home for those installations. But what they're working for and working to improve is that quality of life. Quality of life is the new breath. You know, for example, Fort Bragg does not have a high school, college Harnett County, and Cumberland County provides to high school. Seymour Johnson does not have a high school aboard the base and coast to coast boats and similar Coast Guard in Wilmington, and up in Elizabeth City, have no high school. So that becomes a concern of the commander, the education of their kids affordable housing. These are the issues that the state is attending to adjust. And, and we saw it too with the with the overflow of medical capabilities that are shared by by the community. So I'm pretty happy when the North Carolina says that is the most user friendly state that they are taking this steps and they are putting their money where their mouth is to support these veterans.
Louis Celli:You know, Mr. Secretary, I so I was stationed at Fort Bragg for three years one of my best assignments. But you know, when we were together last you throw the gauntlet down. So I'm going to give you a chance to you know, to tell your your neighbors and some of the other states why North Carolina is if not the, you know, a military friendly state and if not just a military, why it's the most military friendly state
Walter Gaskin:because I think they here in North Carolina, I think the general assembly, the governor and all of these agencies, they get it. They get it that the benefits that come and the economic impact from having the those soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines live in the state means you have to help with the transition. You have to determine You know, everybody who's in the retirement arena makes several choices, you know, am I gonna get a job and the second career, and my key is going to be hated? You know, it's a cost of living as it relates to the quality of life. Good and North Carolina. So I'm getting the biggest bang for my buck. And do I? Do I have someone that's going to seek to ensure that the benefits that I've earned being a military person are all sought after adhere to and help? And that's what I think the state does, if not better, as good as any state in the union?
Dr. David Shulkin:You know, I think I think you're right, I think North Carolina is doing some some pretty incredible things. And it's because of that leadership support. Are there any specific legislative issues that you're working on now to further improve the life and well being of veterans and active duty people in the state?
Walter Gaskin:I think they're just several one, but one in particular, is that we want and we've got it halfway through the General Assembly, we'd like to see the dos that retire, receive some tax benefit on taxing of their, of their retirement. And we're doing this for for scholarships. What's unique about this scholarship, you know, that all scholarships are usually, you know, based on meritocracy, but this scholarship, is that you've already qualify. If you're you get despite some tragedy, or some disability, or some thing happen in your family, where the benefactor or you got in, has had a disability and is given for eight semesters is given. For both room and board. We've seen a lot group now because the the kids that fly from Desert Storm and own family members, they are now that 1718 and ready to go to college. And these scholarships are available for this
Louis Celli:sector, Gascon. We've done a lot of podcasts here at the policy bets, podcast and 99% of them have been federal federally related. One of the reasons we were very excited to have you on is because you oversee a state. So can you help our listeners understand what's the value of connecting with the state leadership with regard to veteran benefits in their individual states instead of you know, always always looking directly to federal benefits.
Walter Gaskin:I think there's there's a partnership. And I think the state as well is the federal government owes a sense of gratitude to these warriors. And these are those folks who have sacrificed so much. And partnership with the with the federal government gives them an opportunity to do just that. For example, on our veterans homes, we have four of them. There the relationship that we have with the federal government is a 6535. But the state pays 35% of both construction and maintenance of these homes. And these homes are our skilled homes. Meaning that being military we appreciate the golden hour of having a veteran and a skill home with a medical professional 24/7. So that what ever happened to them in their lack of years, they can that can get that we also placed them close to the VA hospitals so that some of them we like to say his wheelchair distance from that. The second thing that I think we do well is that we really want to create a veteran home in practice rather than name. We want this to be a home for these veterans in their elder years. For example, the food that we serve and it costs more is gourmet food. We have a chef on duty at every one of these home so that they can get a meal. And one of the things that North Carolina is famous for his their their meals, they're there whether that be from barbecue to butter beans, you know, okra and tomatoes and these veterans get that at their homes. And we believe that this is their home. The state has taken that on full hand. And the same thing with our for veterans cemeteries. The one thing that we like to say to the veterans communities, that a cemetery is Close but never feel because defendants still have that right to join a loved one. And so that we have to have the correct staff, the same federal VA for officials that evaluate Arlington evaluates our cemetery do the same, same level, what has been most challenging is is that our veterans from the World War Two, early Vietnam and Korea are passing on. So we're averaging 26 funerals per month for home for cemetery. And so that you have to have a qualified staff. And we have changed the classification of those workers. They have federal employees, they have a special designation. They are not folks that just cut grass, but they are actually professionals that give dignified ceremonies to our veterans, again, who've earned that's one of the benefits that they've earned.
Dr. David Shulkin:Secretary Gaskin, you had mentioned before about all your vast experience in your career in the military. And of course, you retired as a Lieutenant General in the Marine Corps. And so I just wonder whether you could talk a little bit about what this past couple months has been like for you with the announcement of the withdrawal from Afghanistan, something that obviously you've been, you've been very involved with policy bets. We've previously interviewed General Petraeus on our podcast, who said that he had thought that there would always be a presence in Afghanistan. Can you just share your thoughts on that, given your past experience?
Walter Gaskin:Yes, you know, Afghanistan is a very, very dear to me. And I remember when the General Petraeus was there, and you know, Stan McChrystal, he, John Allen, all of those were Joe Dunford. Were involved in as, as a deputy chairman of the Military Committee, and then acting chairman, I oversaw the operations. I was also the chairman of the logistics committee in NATO, which means we plan the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Afghanistan, contrary to popular belief, was not an American war. We were the greatest participants. So like any team, and he would the most is, has a lot of say. So in that agreement, we put it in American four star as a head of ISF, and then also, as a part of the train, and equip mission. All of that was predicated upon the fact that we would have trained a army for transition, just like we did in Iraq, and that we would help build their government to the point that they would actually support. And I've talked to a lot of veterans of that war, mostly what we need is an education of what actually happened in Afghanistan. When we went into Afghanistan. It was a based on an UN resolution, I think is 1980 83 was 1883 was the name of that resolution. But it was designed to transition them to teach them to fight for by the wherewithal to do to were involved in a a civil war, which required a counterinsurgency operations from us and all of our partners. And that's where we we attempted, as we did in Iraq, the surge to get the ratio of a counterinsurgency which is highly intensive, to that of rebuilding my disappointments is that if we had had the government and the as well as the armies, what we trained in the police, which we train, to actually fight, we will be smooth seen a different income, it will, it was always designed to have for station to air and to ground on the withdrawal. So moving into Cabo was not unexpected to me. We had already given up Bagram Airfield, that did not belong to us a lot. A lot of people say we game, but all we had was trainers there. 2500 foot Buhler. None of those were combatants. They were there to train others to do organization. So I think it was absolutely remarkable, because when we planned that withdrawal, It was gonna be over over 90 days. And to be able to do that, in that short period of time with the larger numbers was a remarkable feat.
Louis Celli:So general, so much has happened since the withdrawal. I mean, I dare say that we could classify this as a full blown humanitarian crisis at this point, the, you know, the medical capabilities of the country is crumbling the infrastructure. I guess, I guess my question is, based on your experience, and and what the plans were, for the withdrawal, even thinking that there may be some sort of contingent that would, you know, keep the government bullied for some time, that compounded with getting all the SI V's out, getting all the family members of the SI V's out, you know, getting them to safety, and now at risk? are literally 10s of 1000s of Afghan citizens who converted to Christianity? Or maybe, you know, gay or lesbian, you know, whose lives are at risk? Was there ever a plan? That you, you know, maybe were part of, to, to address this? I mean, where are we now? Where do we go from here?
Walter Gaskin:I said, originally, my, my greatest disappointment was that we had to do it in such a hurry. But my also my greatest frustration is, is that there is an expectation that he was going to empty Afghanistan. That was never the case, you know, and, you know, it's just like any place, that those who want to come to the United States, I can count 12 places right now, that will pack up everything and lead. But that is your country. And you have to understand that. When I when I talk to folks, I said, we are not here to take your country, we're here to help you keep your country, and you have to have that will to do that. So that's why my greatest frustration has been that if you should be angry at anyone, it is your government. It is your military, it is your police force, that abandon the situation. What's really frustrating to me, having walked the streets of Kabul, and knowing that 250 People can come into town on Jeepneys and, and motorcycles and control your country is ludicrous. So I wanted the the Afghans to be just as dedicated to their own way of life as I am to protecting mine. And that was what I saw. The failure in have to do that. And everything that we planned, again, was with our our allies, who were in the areas, whether it be the Italian and Spanish in Herat, the Germans, the Anasazi, Becca, Stan, or the British and the United States in the south, and the turkeys are in the east, all of us had a plan on how we was going to bring out those civilians that support us, if necessary. The Taliban being in Kabul is the same thing we ran into 2005. So this was not a new new thing. And the Taliban are pushed on just like the rest of them. So I think that we allow them to believe that, you know, we were we were there to, to run the country rather than to help them run it themselves. And so that's that's a disappointment to my Marine friends that that, that were there right at the end, I remind them that having done five Niels myself, they are three rings in the Neil, that is the dose that I inside the cure of the 6000 troops to came in from the Marines and at the Airborne Corps, the cura the site of extraction. There's a second ring of the police force of indigenous police force that were there with the Marines had to go outside the gate and we've seen all the stories about the Marines holding babies and and then the third ring is the military depose whoever attacking outside of the perimeter to those rings were missing when the government did not stay and provide the supervision of the police force, as well as that. Am you talking about 6.2 million in that city? And everybody's rushing? The point of exit? There? There was no no way you could have could have done that. And that was, that was what was disappointing. And when I look at the plane, and 123,000 of those on the plane, half of them were able bodied males, we require our males to register for drast, with the poor. And I've said this to my interpreter, who is currently in the state that you should be on your way back, I want you to fight just like the Taliban is fighting, I want you to fight for your way of life, no one should have to give up their Chow, because they are trying to eat because someone is walking around with a ak 47. threatening your family, you fight for your family. So the if there was anything that we fail, that is to instill the will to fight for what you believe, rather than to accept the will of your country, man. That's my my personal assessment, having spent much time
Dr. David Shulkin:general Gaskin, thank thank you for sharing that. That's a that's a really clear point of view. So how do you feel about the Afghan refugees have come to the United States and maybe even particularly to North Carolina? I understand that, that that you you clearly believe they still have an obligation back to their country? But are you working to support them to become well rounded into the into the American society? Or?
Walter Gaskin:Oh, absolutely, I think that, you know, we made some promises to them. And I really think that they everybody wants to protect their family. And I don't want to diminish that because our allies also to include to the north and Canada in a number that we take. But that number has always been the case. It was never the intent to empty the country, to some of the things that we have in our own southern border, you know, you need to fix what's there, so that they want to stay home. Same thing that Poland is dealing with the Bella Roos, now and that sort of thing. So we have that right to help those. And we've been immigrating folks from millions of years, I mean, hundreds of years. And that's why we have those folks that that are here that are bringing kinfolk over. My my, my concern is is that you will never solve the problems of your country. If everybody leaves, they will they will be here, you know. So, yes, I think we we should should welcome those and that that wants to come to the United States, but it was based on our immigrations of we took from countries it shouldn't be because their country men, and that's what's often misunderstood, is their countrymen that are renting them out. It's not someone invading their country. And that's the part that they they need to address. And, and that's, and that's why I think that they should just plan to do that.
Louis Celli:When we when we were in your office, we talked about a variety of different topics, and one that came up, which which I found very enlightening was the discussion about General McChrystal and his fame grow Rolling Stone article, and you were able to kind of share some backstory with me, that I thought was very, very interesting and entertaining for, for folks who remember that article and the dust up that it caused. Do you mind sharing that again?
Walter Gaskin:Yes, you know, course I call General McChrystal, a serious mentor and friend. And we he was the director of the joint staff and I was his vice director, when he put together the Afghan hands, which was knowing more about where you going to fight than just a few words Hi, and bye and understanding the tribal system. But he also realized that a lot of that because of his special forces background, dealt in, more hands on and that's why we gave it the Afghan hands and so when he left the director job, he was assigned as the commander of ISEP. But to to his point, he has a the inner circle. And he handpick the folks to be in his inner circle. And one of them was a Lieutenant General Flynn. Oh, he was in one star because he had been the j two for joint staff. And we were also from the Joint Staff debating embedding of journalists into see how the interaction you know, they're part of a winning minds and hearts and so, and that same type of thing. And I've always believed that as the commander, you know, we're going to follow orders that comes because of our organization and civilian lead, we're going to follow those orders from the from a military perspective. But you got to have a sanctuary where you can talk about hell, the boss, nobody's talking about the boss crazy as hell, how do we convince the boss that, you know, this is what we should do, just as a General Petraeus went through both in Iraq and Afghanistan, the idea of having surges to increase the ratio, he was also looking at counterinsurgency versus counterterrorism, where you have this idea you hear now across the rather than people come in and hit certain targets. And he was, and he was sitting in there, talking about what was the best way, and you have to have that inner sanctuary. But what you don't invite into that discussion? Is the press. And that's where Michael Hastings from the Rolling Stone was sitting there listening saying that, you know, the boss is crazy as hell that this is going to work, or what size of force should that be? How many do we take out, and then print that and call him the runaway General was a really miss thing. And, and course, we all just as Michael Flynn for inviting press in to that inner sanctuary meeting. But true to the man and character he has, he took responsibility, because that's his staff. And when you sit down and talk to President Obama, he explained to that, and President Obama understood that this was not a question of authority, or runaway general, but is actually doing what you expect your senior leadership to do with gives you options tell you when you when they think that you are making a bad mistake, but fully accept your decision. Once it's made.
Louis Celli:General Gaskin before we go, we will we always want to make sure that we give our guests the last word. And I, here's a question that I have for you. If you could have influenced any type of change on how the last half of the Afghan war strategy was led? Is there anything that you would have changed? And if so, what
Walter Gaskin:again, I would have liked to see us have the timeline, as planned, extra, and course to contingency at that. And our plan was to go across land, if we if we could not air out because of that. So I would like to have have seen the Afghan government who we had trained and given better equipment than any, any forest in Southwest Asia, other than Pakistan and India to actually be able to do that. So I would like to see the United Nations have been the one who did the evacuation. Similarly, as we went in a Security Council resolution that will have made this a a peaceful thing and had buy in from all of the players. So that would not have turned into capitulation. I was not had left the Afghan government out of the negotiations for departure, and, and with the Taliban and, and to rely on the Taliban to be good gas. So that would have been fine. But
Dr. David Shulkin:well, General Gaskin, thank you so much for joining us today. We know how busy you are. We appreciate the time. But we know that it's important that you speak to your audience, which is the people who are the veterans and families who support them and all the active duty. So thank you again, for all your service. We are big fans of what you're doing in North Carolina. We'll continue to follow your progress.
Walter Gaskin:Thank you very much, and I really enjoyed it.
Louis Celli:Thank you, General. And that really is all the time that we have for today. Hey, listen, next week is Thanksgiving. So we're gonna take some time off. As a matter of fact, Charlie, our producer said that nobody's going to listen to this podcast over Thanksgiving. Anyway. So on behalf of all of us here policy that's from the secretary myself, and and all of a wonderful folks who help us produce this podcast, we just want to thank you for for listening, and we wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving and we'll see you the week after next.
Charlie Malone:Thanks for listening to the policy bets podcasts. For more information about projects and other podcasts. Go to policy. That's dot org.