Heather Ansley, the Executive Director for Government Relations for the Paralyzed Veterans of America discusses the antiquated approach that airlines have taken towards paralyzed members of society. She discusses specific stories and how important it is that legislators put this on their radar.
Heather Ansley, the Executive Director for Government Relations for the Paralyzed Veterans of America discusses the antiquated approach that airlines have taken towards paralyzed members of society. She discusses specific stories and how important it is that legislators put this on their radar.
PBA President Charles Brown was traveling on PVA business. When he was dropped on the jetway when airline personnel attempted to transfer him from his customized wheelchair into this aisle chair device. He fractured his tailbone and ended up with an infection in his spine. And he had to have surgery he spent months in the VA Spinal Cord Injury Unit in Miami. And thankfully the specialized care that President Brown received at the VA helped him recover from what was really a life threatening health crisis.
Charlie Malone:Welcome to the policy beds podcast engaging with leaders, scholars and strong voices to fill a void in support of Policy Development for America's veterans. With your host former Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Dr. David Shulkin. And the Executive Director of Policy beds, Louis Celli, today's guest Heather Ansley, the Associate Executive Director for Government Relations for the Paralyzed Veterans of America.
Louis Celli:Mr. Secretary, when you went to the Warrior Games, how many veterans were wheelchair users while you were there?
Dr. David Shulkin:Oh, so many, I think even on the plane ride over. I remember counting on my plane, about 16 veterans in wheelchairs. And I just remember thinking how remarkable it is that each one of them was taking this trip and was going and participating and many of them had service dogs. I remember, big Labradors slept on my feet on the flight on the flight there. And, and so this is, this is a pretty common scenario for veterans.
Louis Celli:So, you know, between the two of us, I'm sure we've flown hundreds of times. And you know, while we're waiting to board, every once in a while, you'll see the flight attendant, or some of the flight staff assisting someone with a wheelchair in the wheelchair kind of disappears down the jet way. And that's the last most people see of it.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think it's unfortunately not the last that often the veteran sees of it. Because as I think we're going to hear that air travel isn't always as smooth as people think they don't, they may not realize but that wheelchair or especially the larger mobility based wheelchairs have to go somewhere in the plane. And just like a piece of luggage, sometimes they'd always come out the same. And so one of the reasons why we're doing this podcast today, Lou is to get people to understand what our veterans go through when they travel.
Louis Celli:One of the most surprising things for me, because, again, you know, just as a as a, as a fully mobile air traveler, when they help wheelchair users onto the plane before the plane takes off, those wheelchair users are waiting to be, you know, to be helped off the plane. And that is after everybody else leaves. So, you know, the average the average passenger doesn't realize, or, you know, or appreciate the fact that in some cases, those those wheelchair users are waiting at the jetway, sometimes for a chair that doesn't show up or for a broken chair. And, you know, everybody's gone at that point. I mean, that's got to be pretty scary.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, I think that's right, Lou, travel for a disabled person. veteran who's in a wheelchair, is often a much more discouraging and difficult process than certainly regular or for people that don't have disabilities experience and we hear how many complaints many people have about air travel but by for somebody with a disability, this can really be a quite traumatic experience if things don't go well. So that's really what we want to do today is to hear from somebody who can really tell us about the situation and ways to fix it.
Louis Celli:Speaking about the, you know, the number of wheelchairs that come off the aircraft totally damaged. Our guest today is an attorney. She's the Associate Executive Director for Government Relations for Paralyzed Veterans of American. I mean, she's really got some staggering information that I'm sure many of our listeners are going to want to hear.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah. Hello, Heather Ansley has been advocating for veterans with spinal cord injuries for more than a decade. And before going to PVA she started out with vets first which was a program of the United Spinal Association. And then seven years ago whenever the PVA but her dedication and her focus on helping veterans with spinal cord injuries has been just truly amazing.
Louis Celli:Got a pretty good memory. I remember stopping the hill with her when she was with vets first. And, you know, she was one person that that I quickly came to respect, because she was no nonsense. She knew her stuff. She had statistics to back it up Heather, Heather, was a force to be reckoned with.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, actually PBA is pretty amazing organization. Besides Heather, of course, you and I are friendly and and admire coral Blake, their executive director who just does an amazing job representing veterans. And you know, as Carl he says, the Paralyzed Veterans of America is one veteran service organization that no one wants to earn membership into, they truly represent a very, very special need in the veteran community.
Louis Celli:Absolutely true. But for veterans who have spinal cord injuries or suffer loss of limb, there really is no more skilled organization in this space and PVA. Yeah, I
Dr. David Shulkin:remember traveling with PVA to a number of veteran hospitals in their spinal cord units. And it really was them letting me know how vital and important those units were to veterans. I had worked in the private sector in hospitals all my life, but I'd never spent time in spinal cord injury units. And so I really credit PVA with opening up my eyes to why those were such critical centers in the VA system.
Louis Celli:You know, I couldn't agree more so so let's get Heather in here. And let's get started. Sorry. Heather, welcome to the policy. That's podcast. Hey, we are really excited to have you. Have you joined us today.
Heather Ansley:Well, thank you, Lou. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.
Dr. David Shulkin:Heather, we're so glad you could be with us. And I want to talk to you a little bit today about Paralyzed Veterans of America and their mission. But I wanted to start by talking about something that I saw on TV, a website about air travel for veterans who happen to be in wheelchairs. And there was a quote on the website from the current president of PVA Do you just want to share with listeners a policy that's what happened to him on one particular flight?
Heather Ansley:Sure, and thanks, Mr. Secretary for that question. You know, air travel is often inhumane and dangerous for Paralyzed Veterans and other people with disabilities. And those who use wheelchairs often report that their wheelchairs are broken that they have difficulties with it with from the transfers from their wheelchairs to the devices they need to use the board the plane. Those devices they use, called an aisle chair are often ill fitting and disrepair. And PVA President Charles Brown was traveling on PVA business. When he was dropped on the jetway when airline personnel attempted to transfer him from his customized wheelchair into this aisle chair device. You fractured his tailbone and ended up with an infection in his spine. And he had to have surgery he spent months in the VA Spinal Cord Injury Unit in Miami. And thankfully, the specialized care that President Brown received at the VA helped him recover from what was really a life threatening health crisis.
Louis Celli:That is a horrifying story. You know, and as I understand it, the the airlines are under very little liability over incidents like this, aren't they?
Heather Ansley:Well, when injuries occur or a wheelchair is destroyed, it can definitely be difficult for a passenger with a disability to get proper assistance from the airline. Under federal law, they they are required to return wheelchairs in the condition that they're received from the passenger. And the damage limits that normally apply to baggage and other devices don't apply to wheelchairs. However, the process of repair can be really slow and so veterans and others sometimes have to seek repairs on their own just to expedite the process. Liability for personal injury can be dependent upon state law and there's federal preemption in air travel and well this means is it just translates into a process that can be difficult for passengers to navigate.
Dr. David Shulkin:I really appreciate you sharing that with us. I don't think most people appreciate just how difficult these challenges are. And you know, the purpose here is not to disparage the airline industry, but to let people be aware that it can really we can do better there. My understanding is about 26 lost or damaged or even destroyed. wheelchairs or motorized chairs every day in the airline industry and when that happens to one of our veterans. They're really their life is disrupted for weeks, sometimes months until they can get that equipment replaced. And so is there is there anything that you think that the airlines should be doing differently than what they're doing now?
Heather Ansley:Well, certainly wheelchair damage is an all too common side effect of air travel for passengers with mobility impairments. And as you mentioned, you know, the the number of wheelchairs and scooters that are damaged or delayed are represent lives lives that are delayed, and certainly having transparency now that these numbers are reported and available for the public to see has really heightened interest from all stakeholders including airlines and wheelchair manufacturers to try to improve this process so that fewer wheelchairs and scooters are destroyed or damaged or mishandled. But unfortunately, the problems still occur.
Louis Celli:The Secretary brings up a really interesting point. And when he said 26, lost or damaged or destroyed, you know, wheelchairs and motorized scooter I focused on last. I can't even imagine the horror of someone who's a wheelchair user arriving at their destination, only to be told that their wheelchair is missing or unusable because it was damaged. I mean, so what happens in those situations?
Heather Ansley:Well, I think the best way I can explain it is sort of story. And although we have a lot of stories about wheelchair damage, in the impacts, I'm going to go back to PVA President Brown because unfortunately on a separate trip, he has significant wheelchair damage issue. He was traveling to Washington DC a few years ago to attend an event on behalf of the organization. And when he arrived in Washington, his power wheelchair simply would not work. It worked just fine. When he got on the plane, now he was dead in the water. There were no manual wheelchairs available to get him to his hotel. So they put him back in this now broken power wheelchair and pushed him which together he in the wheelchair weigh 600 pounds, finally got into his hotel, few hours passed. No repair person shows he calls they say a week, you know someone will be there in a week. So he called his own technician to just get the chair repaired. Because he's stuck in a hotel that he ended up missing the entire event the whole reason that he traveled and then was stuck with the repair bill because he himself went and got it repaired instead of waiting on the airlines.
Dr. David Shulkin:While that's that's just such a horrible story. But you know, I think it's one of the real reasons why Paralyzed Veterans of America is such a important organization and why it's important that we continue to support PVA, because you're the organization that that knows and can tell these stories and stand up for people that really have to have safeguards around them. I remember another story of of Ms. In gratiae Figaro whose wheelchair her power wheelchair was also destroyed during a flight. She was given a loaner chair had to spend weeks and unfortunately, that chair, not the same quality caused a pressure ulcer that ultimately took her life. And so these little things by not giving special care and attention to wheelchairs and mobility devices can really be life threatening.
Heather Ansley:You're exactly right, Mr. Secretary, and, and the story of Mr. Guerrero, it's a it's a tragic story that really illustrates the devastating effect that losing access to your customized wheelchair can have on a person with a disability. Her wheelchair was damaged when she returned from a trip to Washington DC where she had come to advocate, you know, participate in her government process. And then she spent weeks when she got home, her chair was damaged, trying to get the airline to properly address the damaged device. And unfortunately, not having access to a proper wheelchair, impacted her body and then resulted in the injuries that claimed her life. It just is a tragic story.
Louis Celli:So we so really this is more than just about convenience. This is a matter of public safety.
Heather Ansley:That's exactly right. It is definitely an issue of safety and in fact many people with disabilities including a lot of PBA members will travel across the country because of their past experiences with wheelchair damage to avoid getting on an airplane. In fact, I was talking recently to one a PVA is national director. She's co chair of our women veterans committee, and she told me she knows she's simply Longer flies because the time that she's tried she was injured, her chair was damaged. She's a high level quadriplegic. And so she takes her chances on the roads because she feels like that's safer for her than getting onto an airplane.
Dr. David Shulkin:Heather, I would think most people believe that the Americans with Disabilities Act would cover air travel, these issues, their travel doesn't.
Heather Ansley:You know, that's a really common misconception that the ADEA covers commercial air travel. In fact, access to air travel for people with disabilities is governed by the Air Carrier Access Act. And that's a law that PBA worked to get past 35 years ago, actually 35 years ago last month. And prior to its passage, people with disabilities could buy a ticket show up to travel and be told at the gate, they couldn't fly because they had a disability. And it wasn't illegal, there was nothing that you could do. And so PVA was founded 75 years ago, in part to fight for the civil rights of our members, as people with disabilities and access to air travel, of course, is important for health care. You know, if you're employed family obligations, you know, we all travel for a variety of reasons and people with disabilities, including Paralyzed Veterans shouldn't be any different.
Louis Celli:Heather, I mean, I met you almost a decade ago, you and I have worked together on a variety of different different programs and initiatives. And didn't you tell me once that Congress told the FAA to track wheelchair damages, I think it was back in like 2018 How's that going?
Heather Ansley:That's right, Lou. So airlines in the US are now required to provide data each month on the wheelchairs and scooters they mishandle, which means lost, damaged, destroyed. And Senator Tammy Duckworth, who of course, is a disabled veteran herself, made sure that this requirement moved forward in the FAA bill back in 2018. And having that data in public view has really, as I said earlier, spurred the airlines and other stakeholders to really pay more attention to this issue, to try to address the systemic problems. But unfortunately, it just continues.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, that's such a good point about somebody like Senator Duckworth understanding this issue from a really personal perspective. Are there any legislative efforts underway? Is there anything that that PVA is working with Congress on to try to improve this situation?
Heather Ansley:We certainly are, we are continuing to work with both House and Senate leaders on the Air Carrier Access Amendments Act, which would make needed reforms to the underlying legislation. Representative Jim lanjutan, also a wheelchair user is our leader in the House. In the Senate, Senator Tammy Baldwin and Senator Duckworth have been the champions for us. And this legislation would require accessibility standards on aircraft, which is not something we have today. So that you could board the the chair, seat the plane safely, hopefully fly in your wheelchair someday, be able to access the laboratory and then enforcement, we really need to increase enforcement because right now, it's very limited and very difficult for people to get any type of assistance when problems occur.
Louis Celli:I'm really, I'm really glad you talked about accessing the bathroom that that video that Secretary mentioned, if you know, if you're listening, and you haven't had a chance to take a look at that video, it's short, I think it's like seven minutes, it's not very long, you should really go watch that something that I talked about was how wheelchair bound passengers will commonly dehydrate themselves a day before a long flight, because they just don't have access to the bathrooms while on the plane.
Heather Ansley:And that's correct. I mean, definitely not something the average traveler has to do. But the vast majority of people who have mobility impairments, they don't have access to a laboratory onboard the aircraft, they're flying a single aisle aircraft, which is what many of us fly if you're going domestically here in the US. And so this means literally going for hours, in some cases without access to a restroom. Because you're also the first person on the plane and the last person off. So you're spending a lot of time on the aircraft. And you know, for people with mobility impairments who have secondary conditions such as diabetes, you know, they often face other health challenges because they're not eating and drinking properly. And it really is just the top area of concern and something that is hard to believe that just hasn't been addressed by the industry.
Dr. David Shulkin:Yeah, Heather, really appreciate you discussing this with us. You know, when I think about it, the entire access getting on and off airplanes still seems archaic, even for people not in wheelchairs. Just that amount of time getting on and off. Average Boston, public boss which You know, I was in New York yesterday, just watching people on wheelchairs getting in off buses, they're, they're able to do that in a much easier way. And that's, that's really a much less expensive piece of machinery than an airplane. So I think you're right. I think this is really just an outdated design issue that's been ignored for too long.
Heather Ansley:You know, we agree, Mr. Secretary, certainly, access to air travel, to air travel is behind other modes of transportation. You mentioned the city bus, subways, Amtrak, lots of other modes of transportation that are covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act, do provide better access for wheelchair users. Whereas air travel, as I like to say, it's still 1986 in terms of accessibility when you board the aircraft. And it really does mean, a very difficult experience for people with disabilities who experience all the same troubles we all do in air travel. But this is just an extra added burden.
Louis Celli:You know, one of the things I love about this platform, you know, that the policy of its podcast is that we cover so many different topics, you never really know, you know, what you're going to hear on one of these podcasts. And I've spent decades in this industry, I have several friends who are wheelchair users. And honestly, I never really knew the extent to which they struggled with this,
Heather Ansley:you know, it really is a pervasive problem. And it's so limits the opportunities that are available to Paralyzed Veterans and all people with disabilities. And, you know, I have a just an example, I think that really brings it home, PVA held a women veterans in power empowerment retreat earlier this fall, and one of our women Paralyzed Veterans encountered a problem boarding the aircraft. And this is what she told us following her trip, she said, I basically went into the aircraft with my head down. And I always tell everybody walk with your head. Hi, I'm a proud veteran, a 10 year veteran, and the humiliation of that I don't even know if I want to fly again. Right now, to be honest with you. This is the impact of the current state of air travel for passengers with disabilities is that we have a woman veteran who is learning how to advocate and, you know, becoming the new person now that she's a person with a disability and because of problems, she's had an air travel, you know, she doesn't she doesn't want to participate anymore. And that's just not where we want to be in the veteran space in the disability space. And quite frankly, just as a nation,
Dr. David Shulkin:whether our listeners call us that one of the reasons they listened to the policy that this podcast is because it gives them new perspectives and helps them appreciate the issues that many of our veterans go through. So what advice do you have, if you're a passenger on a plane and you see them, you know, helping somebody in a wheelchair onto the plane? And we hear that? It's, it's really a somewhat humiliating experience? Do you recommend that, that people say something and offer their support and say, you know, let me know if I can help you take your time? Or we're glad you're on board? Or, or are they better off just simply just being patient and not saying anything?
Heather Ansley:You know, pass, people with disabilities are just like everyone else, they want to be treated the same, not special. And, you know, certainly if somebody looks like they need assistance, you can always offer your assistance. And then if they need it, they'll let you know. And I think the important thing is just to be aware, many times in air travel, we are so focused on ourselves, and so focused on our destination. And really, when you open your eyes and look around the next time you're on that airplane, just think about what it would be if you were a person with a disability, because disability is something that can happen to any one of us at any time during our lives. And it's important for people to be able to know that today they're looking at somebody else who needs access, but tomorrow, it might be them.
Louis Celli:Heather, we're getting ready to wrap up here. And I first of all, I want to thank you again for joining us on the policy that's podcast is an extremely important topic, and we're going to continue to follow your work but before we go, is there anything that we haven't covered or anything you want our listeners to know? Maybe about some of those videos on your website or anything that we've missed?
Heather Ansley:I'm glad you mentioned that Lou, I certainly want to invite the listeners to visit pba.org forward slash air travel on from that page. You can find videos you can find stories. You can also sign a petition in support of the Air Carrier Access Amendments Act. And if you're a veteran us a disability. There is lots of information on our site about how to best navigate air travel, what you can do if you encounter a problem. So please go visit. Again, it's pva.org, forward slash air travel.
Dr. David Shulkin:Thank you so much for joining us today. And as Lou said, we'll continue to be there to help support you, and continue the great work. Thank you. Thank you.
Louis Celli:Thanks, Heather. And that really is all the time that we have for this week. Listen, join us next week when we're going to have Dr. Keita Franklin with us. Dr. Franklin has a rich history in this industry. She's worked for DOD, she's worked for VA, and now she's helping settle Afghan refugees. You're not going to want to miss this podcast.
Charlie Malone:Thanks for listening to the policy. That's podcasts. For more information about projects and other podcasts go to policy vets.org