Introducing John (the Baptist) | Jesus Begins 1

In which John and David begin a new series about beginnings of Jesus' ministry by talking about John the Baptist. There's lots of interesting things happen in a couple of verses in Luke's gospel that help us understand some of the nuances and aspects of Jesus' ministry that we might often miss. So as we journey towards Easter Two Texts is looking at where Jesus started his public ministry and what we can learn from it.

Episode 42 of the Two Texts Podcast | Jesus Begins 1

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Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Transcript

 Transcript autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] David: Well, hello, John. We are back with two texts. 

[00:00:04] John: Here we go. I'm overjoyed my break, but I'm ready and raring to go. David, I'm ready to, to go. Let's do  

[00:00:10] David: And so here we are at the beginning of lent this a 40 day journey that the church has observed for many, many years, that leads us up to Easter and, and you, and I thought that we would keep it slightly out of sync with what's going on, but good places to reflect during this period, we would think about at the beginning of Jesus' ministry. 

[00:00:29] So lent leads us up to Easter. Which is a sort of culmination of what Jesus sees earthly ministry was. But we, we were thinking following on from what we talked about at Christmas, let's think about where Jesus begins his ministry. and we're going to do that in Luke's gospel. Aren't we? Yeah,  

[00:00:45] John: absolutely. 

[00:00:45] I think Luke gives us beautiful. links as it were not only 

[00:00:50] sort of from the sense of the beginning, but I think also a beautiful threads that run through loop, which I think foil nicely off the other gospels. 

[00:00:59] And Luke gives us lots of detail. About that relationship that Jesus has with John being filled with the spirit being led into the wilderness and then launching his ministry in the power of the spirit. So really beautiful. 

[00:01:11] framework I think, to work off, which really helps us when we're thinking about this a beginning period.  

[00:01:17] David: And that will link back into some of the things we talked about during our Christmas series, where we talked about how the stories of, of Mary and Zechariah, they load things into. The gospel at the very start that become really clear as Luke progressies through his work. Well, the same, I think is true of, of the sort of beginning part of Jesus's ministry, his encounter with John, the Baptist, his own baptism, his temptation, his appearance in the synagogue in Luke chapter four, these are all. 

[00:01:47] Programmatic is the word that we've used before. Isn't it, they they're, they've got details to them that you're going to want to be aware of as you're unpacking this, this beautiful gospel and, and I think right the way into acts as well. 

[00:01:59] John: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, as we as we're going to reflect together today a little bit on John, obviously, we're, we're, we're leaning into the beginning of the ministry of Jesus, but you can't do that without reflecting on John's role. Who was John? Where did he come from? What's he about. 

[00:02:14] Some of the things he said, do they, do they prepare the way for Jesus? Do they line up with Jesus? Do they conflict with Jesus? There's some really interesting stuff going on there, a very complex situation, but of course, having, having done sort of saccharine.  

[00:02:29] That leans beautifully into this moment in Luke three. 

[00:02:33] And there is a beautiful connector between the prophecy of Zachariah and the work 

[00:02:38] of his son, John and of course connecting beautifully into the ministry of Jesus. So it's a, it's a good, it's a good if people have been following the Christmas story, I think it's a nice little lead into the next part.  

[00:02:49] David: Also John, our listeners know that you are our resident Luke's gospel experts and, and for, for, for those of  

[00:02:59] John: You keep saying that David, you keep saying,  

[00:03:01] David: But, but, but for those, for those of our lists, ensure keeping count, this is, this is another dive into Luke's gospel. So just please know that I'm working on an epic Galatians series that John owes me a. 

[00:03:14] John: Come on. Yes. Once, once we get past, once we get past Jesus in Luke, then it's, then that, you, you can rock the world with Paul and and go with that. Absolutely. I mean, you, you have earned the rate to rock the next three years of podcasts on Paul. Because of, because of what  

[00:03:31] David: To be fair though, to be fair. Luke does write more of the new Testament than any other author. So he deserves, he deserves some attention and I am absolutely okay with that because he is of course, a friend of Paul's. So this is all good. 

[00:03:47] John: Absolutely. Absolutely. You can't. I think, I think you can see Paul's influence in his writing and clearly a better coaching and influence in terms of as a Gentile writer, his grasp on the Jewishness of Jesus and some of the gorgeous connectors and out of course, so many unique stories that are. 

[00:04:06] Profoundly and powerfully all Testament based and Jewishly oriented. I think Luke is brilliant at that. And there's no date at Paul had a notch or two in that direction. No doubt about that. When you think of the scholarship of Paul,  

[00:04:19] David: definitely. Definitely. So. I hope you've got a coffee and whether you're in your car, listening to us or sat comfortably at home with your Bible, listen to us. I hope you've got a nice warm drink and we are going to jump in and we're going to start in Luke chapter three today, John aren't we, and, and the story of John the Baptist. 

[00:04:40] And do you want to read the first part for us, John? Okay.  

[00:04:43] John: John,  

[00:04:44] David: We so we'll do we'll, we'll begin with Luke chapter three and read one through six. I, I, I realized that that's really mean what I've done you, because verse one is one of those verses of the Bible that you hope the pastor never asks you to read in public because. 

[00:05:02] Good chance to at least one of these names, you'll say the way that nobody else says it or something like that. And, and,  

[00:05:08] John: Yes.  
 

[00:05:09] David: and goodness, I've asked you to do it. That's unfair. 

[00:05:11] John: Yes. Well, like I clearly, clearly That was, that was set up there and also saying these words with an Irish accent, even if you're pronouncing them right. Will probably sound wrong. Anyway, so there we are. So here we are. So let's jump in verse one, chapter three in the 15th year of the reign of Thai Bearius Caesar, when punches pilot was governor of Judea Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother. 

[00:05:35] Tech truck of Arturia and track contests and the sunniest tetrarch of Abilene during the high priesthood of of a Donald Case. So far,  

[00:05:46] David: sending good.  

[00:05:47] John: the word of the Lord, the word of the Lord cave to John. I've got that one. I know that. 

[00:05:53] one. John son of Zachariah in the wilderness, he went into. The country around the Jordan preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah, the prophet, a voice of one call in the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord make straight paths for him. 

[00:06:12] Every valley shall be filled in every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth and all people will see God's salvage. Beautiful  

[00:06:28] David: Beautiful, John , I just. I always find myself thinking something at Luke chapter three. 

[00:06:34] And, and Luke's done this before in his gospel as well. There's very detailed assessment of who was where and doing what, when, when this story begins at, it feels, it feels very detailed. Tiberius Caesar is here, punches pilot was there. Herod was over here. His brother was doing this over there. 

[00:06:53] And I always, I always really love that. And why partly the reason why I always want to keep those readings, even when we read these in church is it's not just throwaway detail. It's, it's reminding us that this story that we're entering into isn't abstract. This is a story that happens in history. This is a story that happened at a particular time, around a particular group of people. 

[00:07:16] And I think that's a really important piece to see. About where we're going. Isn't it. 

[00:07:22] John: Oh, completely, completely. And I would encourage our, our listeners to, we've, we've spent a long time leaning into the gospels and various series that we've done an understanding of the world of the gospels, politically, an understanding of that world, culturally, an understanding of that world, even, I would say religiously. Ethnically and economically will really inform your reading of the scriptures. And I think, when Luke drops this stuff out, we're able to contextualize the story of Jesus immediately. Into a political, economic, religious global ethnic context. The Roman empire is, is reaching a point of Sabbath here. 

[00:08:05] This'll become that. This'll be an empire that. Will rule the world For the next 400 years before it crumbles from within and without. So it is a staggering context. And of course it's remembering that Israel, which is the center of this story and the Messiah who is the center of that story within Israel is right on the fringe of that empire, the Eastern fringe of that empire. 

[00:08:29] So it's a sort of a lots of troublesome place to the Roman. And a pilot would have been put there, not as an opportunity to advance his career but probably as a little bit of a, a little bit of a a nudge that 

[00:08:44] he wasn't like so much maybe by certain people in. So this was a difficult and troublesome place, even though it was relatively small, but it sat on the fringe of, of, the greatest empire the world had seen at that point. 

[00:08:58] And yet this story will move from the fringe to the center of that empire within 35, 40 years. So it's really important. 

[00:09:05] that we understand that as a, as a contextual moment and it really does help.  

[00:09:09] David: I I've heard it said in a few contexts that the, the, although it was on the fringe of the empire, the Jewish people's resistance to Roman occupation was such that the Romans had more soldiers per capita dealing with Israel than they did in any other part of the empire. And, and you can read that in various texts about how. 

[00:09:32] Yeah, but you see fish talks a lot about this. So do you see, this is a writer writing about the same time as the, as the new Testament is being put together. And, and he talks a lot about just how many troubles that the Romans had with this little, this little fringe corner of the empire that just refuse to go quietly along with the Roman ideals. 

[00:09:52] John: No, it's absolutely true. I mean, there was a massive Roman presence just over the border up north based in Damascus, the sort of Syrian Legion in that sense, which was a huge force that could be mobilized very, very quickly. There's a little hint deadness in the gospels. When, when Jesus is trade by pilot, the, the gathered crowed that have been rounded up by the religious community to sort of make life difficult for pilot are clearly squeezing. Because pilot has already been in trouble with the local population on at least two occasions. And it's a sort of the third strike and your own feel about that trial. So I think there's a subtext of the trial of Jesus with pilot repel. It really 

[00:10:35] has been cornered politically. We have no king, but Caesar. 

[00:10:39] And that's a threat that wasn't just hypocrisy from the crowd. That was a threat. If you don't do, as we want, we will, we will make life very, very difficult for you. And pilot was under massive pressure. And of course this bill introduction shows us the sort of paradoxical power situation of the first century world. 

[00:10:57] Israel is under the control of Rome, but there are these sort of tech trucks, these regional. Rulers Herod Phillip his brother R KLEs before pilot, when, when the Romans remove you, because you're so nasty and put somebody else in your place, you're pretty bought. 

[00:11:16] Absolutely. So, E I R Kelly's was a cut off the old block from his, from Herod the great, he was a pretty nasty man. And and of course our viewers may remember that it's the reign of our Kelly. Joseph and Mary and Jesus avoid when they returned from Egypt and hide and Nazareth essentially. So you've got these sort of regional. power centers and 

[00:11:40] and that's why you'll keep your, your keep popping up Herod the tetrarch that, that he's the guy that keeps popping up in our story because he's sort of looking after the Galilean. And of course we find John clashing with him in this chapter to a devastating, devastating effect, ultimately,  

[00:11:59] David: listeners might remember back to when we talked about just the end of our parable series, we talked about the parable of the talents or, or in Luke's gospel, the parable of the Myners in Luke chapter 19, and Luke even makes an illusion within that parable to the sort of situation that's going on. 

[00:12:16] If you're, if you remember. Is this, the whole setup of the story as a man of noble birth is going to be appointed king in a distant country and the people don't want him to be king. And that really is I think, a little political comment to the temperature around Jesus at the time of Israel. And as we will see, as you unpack the story of both John, the Baptist and Jesus heroine, Is deeply fearful. 

[00:12:41] I think of anybody that appears to have the support of the crowd over and against him. And and that's that something. And in fact, again, John, the Baptist for that conversation that we're having is an interesting character historically, because he's one of the few biblical characters in the new Testament who is reporting. 

[00:13:02] By contemporary. So again, go back to Josephus, just see, is aware of this character, John, the Baptist. And do you see for C's take on John? The Baptist is that Herod sees him as a threat and Herod is worried about the people's response to John and how that might threaten Roman rule. I think whenever you are a pretty despotic leader if it looks like the people are going to turn against you, that very, very rarely goes well for you. 

[00:13:29] Does it? 

[00:13:29] John: For sure. And I think Herod, Herod the grit the father of the man listed in our, in our passage, he was I mean, one sense of brilliant man engage. Great buildings grit ventures, but he was also I mean, ruthless, megalomaniac 

[00:13:46] quite dangerous at lots of that. When, when your insecurity causes you to kill every child under two, it will every meal child under two in the Bethlehem region that shows the levels you're prepared to go. 

[00:13:59] I think it was Caesar who said of Herod sear for it to be as. And then to be a son, which, if the Jewish context of that, then, then that's a, it's a bit of a huge insult there. And, and it shows how the Romans viewed Herod and I think. 

[00:14:13] heritage sons inherit that 

[00:14:15] insecurity. 

[00:14:16] They, they are incredibly vulnerable. The Romans ultimately hold all the power, but they are letting, letting them rule to a degree. Regionally. But that depends on keeping the pace, keeping the people in line, keeping the taxes, flowing, making sure everything keeps working on anybody or anything that's going to disrupt. 

[00:14:37] That is a threat. And sometimes as Christians, we, we see the threat of job just as sort of spiritual, but of course, Herod would have read that thread initially as political. And and would've seen John's insult to him as a political in front of front, which is probably why he moved quickly against John, because he didn't want any political movement gathering momentum around this religious fanatic.  

[00:15:01] David: of course, when you're in a context like first century Israel, the lines between religious and political are, are immensely blurry because the, the there's prophecy and hope and expectation that are all connected to land and borders and, and country aren't. They. 

[00:15:18] John: And, and w when you, when you view that sponginess the, the crossing of the lanes around that and you understand that you realize how remarkable Jesus was. Jesus doesn't really make any openly direct. Negative political statements about Rome. I mean, the closest we get to a direct statement on Rome is give to Caesar what is Caesar's give to God? 

[00:15:41] What is God's and that has a context to it. He he's scared then of Herod. He calls Herod a Fox that's as strong as he gets. He seems to avoid the sort of, political confrontation that will make him a political enemy. And yet, even though Jesus is not directly 

[00:15:58] political, his message is profound. Profoundly political in the sense that if you really understand the kingdom of God properly, it's going to affect how you view the government. 

[00:16:08] It's going to affect how you view your world. It's going to affect how you view Everything 

[00:16:13] And Jesus is I think by stealth, by, by under the radar almost he's challenging the Roman world without 

[00:16:22] without raising an army to do. 

[00:16:25] He's he's challenging him with the idea of the kingdom of God. And I think that's really. And of course he's having to resist, then a Jewish worldview, of the kingdom of God, which is very physical. 

[00:16:35] even military military and its outlook. And Jesus has having to contend with. Push back on that so that he doesn't end up getting real rooted. 

[00:16:45] into being a king, the sort of keen that he doesn't want to be. So when you understand the tensions of the world, that Jesus is in and the different groups he is managing what he achieves at a public level is absolutely sensational. It's an amazing, amazing. Way that he leads in that context and the pressure he must've been under constantly negotiate moly sides would, would just, would have been horrendous  

[00:17:11] David: he does seem to be navigating a line, which is about a millimeter thick. I mean, and because our, our listeners will know, by the time you get to ask you to look at the beginning of acts, the disciples, put questions to Jesus about. Like, so when are you going to actually do all this stuff? 

[00:17:27] You've been talking about Jesus and they clearly mean that in terms of like what are you going to do  

[00:17:33] John: what are you going to do  

[00:17:33] David: politically? What are you going to do in terms of these oppressors? I will probably talk about it during our discussion about John the Baptist, but even John, the Baptist who proclaims great things about Jesus starts to get a little, a little blurry as to when Jesus is going to do the things that he imagines. 

[00:17:51] So, so there's one level of story that's going on here. Just dropping down into verse two, John, I wonder if there's a second level of story that we just want to speak about very quickly which is. The word of the God of God came to John son of Zechariah. And then you just get these three little words, which I can't help, but think Luke has loaded up for us in his telling of the story. 

[00:18:18] The word of God came to John and in the Greek. In the deserted place or in the wilderness or in the desert? I mean, I think I know you well enough to know what your thought process does when you see those three Greek cords in the desert, but I'm just curious, like where did, what does that bring out for you? 

[00:18:37] John: Well, I mean, for me, it's I think there's a couple of levels of nuance that are sort of in there. I think obviously when you think. 

[00:18:46] about the journey of God's people originally a journey out of slavery into promise, you have this in the wilderness experience effect. 

[00:18:57] In fact, the fourth book of the Torah is called. In the wilderness bar mitzvah and Hebrew we, we call it the big of numbers, but in Hebrew it's bar mitzvah and it refers to the wilderness journeys on the idea that actually they are, the, the wilderness is not the destination. the wilderness is the, is the route to promise it's the. 

[00:19:20] To fulfillment of God's plan. And I love this idea that the word of the Lord comes to John in this wilderness. That, that there's a sense in which what we're now about to see not, 

[00:19:31] only comes to him in the wilderness, but there is this nuance that God is leading people. 

[00:19:36] from wilderness into purpose into truth. And, and for me, that's, that's a beautiful little idea. I mean, there's probably. There's probably a sense of which John literally lived in the wilderness. There's a little tradition that this suggests he was possibly a member of the Essene community. And he certainly reflects the sort of theology of the scenes in terms of judgment and kingdom of God. 

[00:20:00] And there is a tradition, the talks about a son of lawlessness leaving the ASIN community. That was a bit raw, wild will John's sorta fits the description. And so he's coming out of his own wilderness. Into purpose. And of course he's preparing a way in the wilderness for the people of God to enter purpose through Jesus Christ. 

[00:20:19] So there's a, I think are some lovely little trade-offs within that. And, and of course, if you think of the. 

[00:20:25] Isaiah passage that we then lean in.  

[00:20:28] David: You've  

[00:20:29] John: You've got a an Isaiah reference that is about helping the people that are 

[00:20:34] struggling with their own lostness and wanderings and exile being brought back into purpose. So there's some there's layers of, of nuance in just that little phrase that don't think it's simply. Oh, John happened to be in the wilderness, maybe with the scenes when he had the word of. 

[00:20:50] the Lord. I think the fact that that phrase is given hints at some bigger narrative context here for  

[00:20:57] David: Yes. And that's exactly what I would agree with as well, John, that, that, that when we read scripture, some of the, some of the little throwaway phrases are actually, big neon lights saying, Hey, this is part of another bigger story. And I think that's what Luke's doing. I think you see that in act really clearly as well, that, or this story. 

[00:21:19] Has a political space it's happening in a real time to real people with real situations going on. But this story is also a part of the big swathe of the salvation history of God, or of his process of rescue and, and putting things back together. It's interesting. I was just I was just reading around John the Baptist as you might expect when we were prepping for this conversation and, and you're, you're totally right as well that John. 

[00:21:47] Looks kind of crazy to us, right. That like, like who is this guy? Right. And yeah. And, and what is he wearing? If you kind of look at some of the other texts that we knew about John from, from other gospels. But I think it's important to say that if you were in. First century Israel. John makes sense to you. 

[00:22:10] So like you mentioned the scenes, as you say, there is a lot of discussion out there as was John one of these scenes. Was he not? He, we're not going to settle that on our podcast, but I would say for our listeners reading about the scenes will give you some sort of idea of the title. W people that were around that John was very similar to read about the scenes and where the dead sea scrolls were discovered and these things. 

[00:22:35] And I think at very least you'll, you'll get a sense of what it's like. And there was other characters out there, there was there's these, these characters appear in Jewish history, like Honi the circle drawer and kind of Naya Ben Doza. These characters. And when you read about them do you see first talks about some of these characters? 

[00:22:53] They sound like John, the Baptist, these, these charismatic, or Acular prophets who are out in the desert. And of course in the deserts really significant because they're, they're making a statement about where they're not. So again, another thing that we learned from the scenes is their decision to move out of Jerusalem was to get away from the religious establishment, which they believed had become lost and corrupt. 

[00:23:19] So the physical fact that you have to journey your way out into the desert to hear this person, you kind of, I would say it's not just. When you've got, politicians using, or other people that would like to be elected as politicians, where do you hear them speak? Not in the houses of parliament. 

[00:23:35] You hear them speaking in street corners and on Twitter because they're, they're away from the central place. Cause there's sometimes trying to intentionally object to the central central space. And I think that's the context that we understand this, this slightly. Unusual looking prophet called John. 

[00:23:54] John: For sure on John. 

[00:23:57] appears there's an Elijah feel to him. Elijah just appears Alaysia the tissue paint and he just, okay. W we, Yeah. 

[00:24:04] w we virtually know very little about them other than the sort of, his name and and the, the tribal context from which he comes. 

[00:24:11] It just, just arrives John, sort of the cm. now, of course we've been given a little bit of the backstory, on John, but then after Zachariah's prophecy, John disappears, I mean, there's not a reference. He just violent. We don't really know what happens in terms of biblical rec court to Zechariah or Elizabeth. 

[00:24:29] They disappear. John disappears and any reappears. 

[00:24:32] But of course he reappears in this non-conformist context, he's wild wearing, camels, skin clothes leather belt, Lucas hanging out of his mouth, honey, dripping off his beard. Do you know, it's all going on. He's a bit wild is a bit Maverick. John is fitting into that prophetic tradition. There's sort of, Alijah Elatia Wilde on teamed uncontrolled. 

[00:25:01] No one can rule them. No one reads them. No one's paying their bills. No, one's got them in their pocket. These men are, are out there and they're almost, it seems a bit of a law unto themselves. And John just absolutely fills that space. And and again for our viewers, our listeners, who will know this, that, the gap between Malik. 

[00:25:22] And, and the period of the gospels, approximately 400 years pass of prophetic silence. There's been, there's been stuff rattling around and there's been political. 

[00:25:32] and military intrigue in that period, but, but No 

[00:25:37] real prophetic voice. And of course, Malakai ends with this idea of. So the PR the way you being prepared, the refiners fire is coming and then Jolene pops up. 

[00:25:49] I'm talking about repentance and fire. and when are we in forks on? wheat and chaff? I mean, 

[00:25:55] he is just absolutely fulfilling all of that. All of those classic stereo lawless types. And John's eight there doing that. So it's it in the wilderness is a very, very powerful little hold on. 

[00:26:09] This is more than just where he started as men.  

[00:26:12] David: And I think there's also a contrast being drawn and I'm channeling a bit of a empty right here. I was reading his, his sort of big work on Jesus. Again, as we prepped for this series And right points out that you get to verse three, he went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 

[00:26:34] And I think as a, as a contemporary reader, particularly one that's growing up in the church, that sounds like a very normal statement, right. A baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, but what, what Tom? Right. Highlights, which I think is a really interesting point just to bring in, even to support what you were saying. 

[00:26:52] Just there, particularly as we're talking about John son of Zachariah, Zachariah is a priest who serves in the temple, Tom, right. Points out. Forgiveness of the sins is something that the temple system offers to people. So, so what, w don't let's not miss what John is doing here as the the beginnings and the precursor to Jesus. 

[00:27:14] His ministry, John is coming up and saying, you can get forgiveness from sin, from. Other than the temple. I mean, that's a huge statement in the history of, of, of kind of the biblical story. Isn't it? 

[00:27:30] John: It's totally radical. And, and if you grab that idea, of course it, then Jesus mixed sense too. So, if I'm, if I'm not mistaken and I, I could be wrong, so please forgive me if maybe, maybe one of our listeners picks this up, but, but I am fairly sure. Virtually with the exception of the woman caught in the act of adultery and Johnny it, and there's a bit of controversy around that story, but with the exception of that story, Jesus pronounces, forgiveness of sins outside of the temple, almost exclusively. So if you count her in, she is the only example of a pronouncement of forgiveness of sins. I think David and I, I, I I'm flying by the seat of the pants here cause I'm fairly certain. That is the  

[00:28:15] David: It's a great study. It's a great study for a listener though, that wants to, that wants a little bit of homework is, is John writes. 

[00:28:23] John: Yep. My rate I'm hoping I'm right, but yeah, but if, if I'm not completely, absolutely right. It's the vast majority of Jesus' pronouncements of forgiveness is to that. So, so, so Jesus follows exactly the same trajectory as John. So John has whatever. 

[00:28:39] whatever John is and John isn't, whatever he becomes or whatever he does, John absolutely gets this 

[00:28:45] He understands that part of his job. Is to prepare, not just the way for the Messiah, but to prepare it in a particular way. And one of the ways he's preparing that is this opportunity and possibility of receiving the forgiveness of sins outside of the temple system. And that is a radical suggestion, right at the beginning of the gospel. 

[00:29:09] And it's not coming from Jesus. It is coming from.  

[00:29:11] David: Which again, speaks to this, this objection to the religious systems. And if you're going to object to the very core of the religious system, then there is intrinsically a critique of almost the, the entire system going on in that everything's up for grabs. If you're going to say that we can do this without the temple, then you're making a big statement. 

[00:29:36] And now I think it's worth. T to fill out our picture again, John is not alone in this. So the, it seems for example, had setter, to be done with this Jerusalem system we're out of here, but also worth noting the rabbis had done the same thing. So, so the rabbis had decided the temple system had essentially sold out to Rome. 

[00:29:57] And so what the rabbis were doing was doubling. The place of scripture as that's what we're holding on to. And that's what we've got. So you'll see, in the, in the gospels, this, you, you have your Sadducees who are part of the temple system but you have the Pharisees who are asking different questions about Jesus. 

[00:30:15] So when they see Jesus forgive sins, they don't ask the question. Well, how can you forgive sins without the temple? The Pharisees asked the question, well, how can you forgive sins? Unless you're a God. And I think our, our, our Stuart listener will spot. Okay, wait a minute. This some interesting, there's some interesting dynamics going on here in this story, but what's being said, and how people are responding to. 

[00:30:37] And the temple at the heart of Jewish life in the first century is struggling to maintain its position there actually. Which is, which is really quite interesting for us, both politically and theologically. When we look at what's going on here. 

[00:30:51] John: For sure for sure. And John represents that 

[00:30:54] outlier and ironically, I mean, the irony is not lost on us in the gospel of Luke, that John is the son of a priest. And Juno, and yet he is he's, he's essentially striking At the heart of the system that his father with a fearfully served and technically John could have served. So, so, there is that there is that there is that sense in which did John then consciously, deliberately like, like the scenes, he may have been a part of the John consciously and deliberately reject that. In order to lean into a greater or wider understanding of the kingdom of God. And, and, and it's really important for us to, to acknowledge that by, by the time Jesus comes along, the temple has become something so far from the original idea. 

[00:31:49] Of the tabernacle that it's, it's hard for us to understand why Jesus would be so annoyed, angry indignant at, at the system. That's now been built up in the name of God. And, and it does explain perhaps the outburst that he has within the temple system, where, where he he's really in, against something. 

[00:32:13] Not the presence of God, not the idea that we gather to the presence of God, but what it has become politically, economically, and religiously, it is, it is completely appealed shadow of its glory. And therefore, John doesn't start in the temple. John, doesn't go to the temple and start to proclaim. John goes to the wilderness to the region around and he starts to reclaim, and the people start to come. 

[00:32:38] And he has an audience in the wilderness, in the, in the desert and in the regions around the Jordan, which is quite striking. 

[00:32:45] David: At that point there, John, I think is, is really important to. Gloss over quickly, John, doesn't go to the temple to begin his message. I, again, I think it's Tom right in Jesus, in the victory of God, his big book on Jesus, he points out the, what we see with John is renewal. By replacement. So, so John John's basic position isn't I think we can fix this temple thing which some renewal is, is exactly how some renewal systems work. 

[00:33:17] Okay, let's get this, let's get this we need a coat of paint here and we need to fix that door over there. John's attitude seems to be no, that whole system needs to come down and we're going to do something else. If you were interested in further homework on that theologically, the book of Hebrews is probably a good space to go and do your reading because that's sort of what the book of Hebrews is wrestling with is how do we move on beyond this temple system into where Jesus sits. 

[00:33:46] And as I've said before, that was a big question. In the first century, the rabbis are wrestling with that question and the Christians were wrestling with that question as well. And it probably is worth saying.  

[00:33:56] John: probably is worth, say  

[00:33:57] David: In goodness, what are we approximately? 30, 40 years from where we're currently talking about in history. 

[00:34:03] Everybody had to deal with that question because the temple is going to is going to be destroyed by the Romans, right? 

[00:34:09] John: but of course you see, I, and this is, you know, if you fast forward to 87 day, this then becomes an issue for everybody who has the temple in some form of context and their perspective. But of course, Israel has dealt with this before is Israel. Israel has been exiled before and they didn't just survive. 

[00:34:31] Exile. They, they thrived in exile. They and they thrived. Not having a temple. So then what do you lean into you lean into Torah. You lean into the word of God, you lean into building communities on the truth of that, that word in that fifth. And and, and in many ways. 

[00:34:49] the sort of. Pharisee type tradition, feigns it's long distant origin in this sort of exhibit context where we can't go to the temple. 

[00:35:01] We can't sacrifice our animals. We can't do this. So where do we go? We Go to Torah. We go to the written word. And ironically, of course, It's 

[00:35:10] it's about to come full circle. That, that actually, Jesus is the word? 

[00:35:15] made flesh. The temple system will ultimately be destroyed in the next 30 to 40 years on actually there'll have to be both for a Jewy system on a Christian system influenced by the Jewish system, a complete rethink of. 

[00:35:32] The location of something like the temple in our, in our religious thought, we're already getting a hint of this John in the wilderness. He's in fact, there's not a single hint. The John on the rec card ever went to the temple. I mean, may have done as a boy, Probably did as a boy, but he certainly. 

[00:35:48] doesn't go anywhere near it and his ministry. 

[00:35:51] And even Jesus is quite. Controlled in terms of how often he visits the temple in a ministry context more towards the end of his ministry than, than throughout the early years  

[00:36:04] David: And so what we're saying here really is that at some level, this is within a few varsities, we're into the big theological question of the first century for Jews and Christians, which is what do you do with the temple we're of course, as, as Christian. Mostly interested in the Christian response to that. 

[00:36:23] But this was the question. And, and again, the, the sharp reader goes from the beginning of John's gospel to the beginning of acts and notice it that the same question is being asked like and the holy spirit now is, is being interpreted as pushing us out beyond the confines of Jerusalem and. Ending Christianity as a pilgrimage religion before it even starts to say that we won't have a central space that we need to be at rather have a central, a central figure. 

[00:36:56] John just quickly before we before we ran this episode all of this is premised by Luke on the words from Isaiah in Isaiah chapter 40, I believe. Let's have a, let's have a brief, a brief chat about Isaiah 40. What do you want to say? What do you say about where Luke positions that. 

[00:37:19] John: Well, I think one of the, one of the beautiful things to see that. 

[00:37:22] a lot of the, the Isaiah quote in Luke jumps in verse three and Isaiah 40, there is a Beautiful. 

[00:37:30] shift in the Isaiah prophecy, Isaiah 40, some of our listeners may know there's this. If you want it to break Isaiah don't, you would look at chapters one to 39 as a little bit of a section. 

[00:37:43] And in 48 launches a new section and you get this beautiful launch in chapter 40. Verse one comfort comfort. My people says your God speak tenderly to Jerusalem and proclaimed. That our heart services being completed, her sin has been paid for, and that she has received from the Lord's hand double for all our sins. 

[00:38:02] Now, of course we knew in the context of Isaiah, that's referring to this sort of promised return restoration of the brokenness and devastation of 

[00:38:11] exile. But but of course 

[00:38:13] when you hear the old Testament quoted in the new test, Never just take the old Testament quote in the new Testament, always go back to the original quote and sometimes putting it in its context can give you an extra nuance into what's going on here. 

[00:38:30] So here's John, there's a sense in which John is the one that divine harbinger called to prepare the way the one, that the Kings of the ancient world literally had Harbinger's who would literally meet paths. If there wasn't a path, they would go ahead and pick a path. If the path had holes, they would fill the holes in. 

[00:38:49] If the paths had, Hills Or 

[00:38:52] lumps in them, they would flatten it. They would even 

[00:38:55] Create Brian, you paths, the harbinger and John is fulfilling. That call, but it's in the context of bringing comfort to the people speaking 

[00:39:05] tenderly to 

[00:39:06] Jerusalem because her heart service has been completed out. 

[00:39:11] Of course, remembering that Israel at that time. 

[00:39:13] is literally exiled in her own country. They are slaves in their own nation. There's a, there's a, a sense in which we can see God's salvation purpose coming here through the message. but also the wider context that there's a comfort, that there's a freedom coming to a wider context through this, this Messiah and John picks this up. 

[00:39:35] He becomes this preparer of the way, this harbinger, this voice. mean, he's literally asked in John's gospel. 

[00:39:43] Who are you? And there's all sorts of, are you the Messiah? No. Are you Elijah? No. Are you a prophet? No. What are you? Who are you He said I'm a voice. I'm a voice. And the voice of one calling in the wilderness. 

[00:39:54] And what one gorgeous little, last little nuance there. David, from, from Isaiah and Isaiah, his original quote says that all people will see the. Of God, Luke, I'm quoting. I think the step two, again, there is making reference to the salvation of God. Lukes. Luke makes a beautiful deliberate insertion. I think that what you're about to see is not just the glory of God. but God's glory. 

[00:40:20] demonstrated through salvation through the Messiah, through Jesus Christ. 

[00:40:24] And John is the one who is heralding that as an opportunity and a possibility.  

[00:40:29] David: It's beautiful. Isn't it to think about Luke's interpretive process there. What is God's glory? What God's glorious his salvation and what is his salvation? It is Jesus. So there's this, the idea that Jew and therefore Jesus says the glory of God is a thoroughly safe statement. That's, that's, that's a very biblical statement. 

[00:40:50] You see how Luke is, is alluding to that. In his use of language and interpretation. I think it's interesting as well that the, this little quote from my Isaiah echoes. Zacharias song echoes Mary's Magnificat you see Luke merging together, all of these stories in such a beautiful way, but I also wonder if there's a little nuance, John, that that is just there that I think is interesting. 

[00:41:20] And I wouldn't want to build my house on it, but of course we started in verse one with all of this. Roman political structure. And then we end in verse six with, this quote from Isaiah, but of course the Romans were huge road builders as well, and th is there a little nuance and contrast going on there that you're building your roads, but the Lord is making a path of, and salvation was a huge piece of, of, of Roman language. 

[00:41:47] Built roads to take Roman salvation to the world. And here you have Luke, who's writing you this story, which we know is going to end up in Rome with salvation coming to Rome. It's a, and ironically, as some historians have pointed out, the Christians use the Roman robes to take a different salvation around the Roman empire. 

[00:42:08] John: For sure, for sure. And I think the political geo political context of both Isaiah and Luke three should not be lost that here's, here's this gospel both in the context of the old Testament people. It seems, destroyed and crushed and reduced by these great super powers on jet. The Lord is issuing a promise of restoration, a promise of bringing something of his glory to bear even in their brokenness. 

[00:42:38] And here we are not in the first century world. Israel under the heel of Rome and as is most of the known world at that time. And and this incredible the light starts to shine in the darkness that, that someone start to build a road. And the person comment on that road. 

[00:42:56] is literally going to cheer and you should the empires of the world. 

[00:42:59] And there is.  

[00:43:01] David: I  
 

[00:43:01] John: I that's one of the things I love about the biblical tax, that there's a, there's a beautiful often a beautiful personal tender, intimate application to some of this. And then there is this macro level that all the time is trying to lift us with hope, absolve the regimes of planet earth and see. 

[00:43:23] Whoever's in power, whoever rules, the earth, whoever thinks they control everything. Actually, there is someone at work above and beyond all of this who will relentlessly pursue his salvation purposes for human caned. And here he is doing it. No one could have predicted 

[00:43:40] that what they were about to see would literally last the Roman empire. And in fact go way beyond any influence that room ever could have dreamed of having on the earth. So it's a, it's a beautiful multilayered multifaceted insight into that, that? 

[00:43:57] beautiful text.  

[00:43:59] David: So let's leave that there then John, and we'll come back in our next episode to sort of get into John then and his conversations with the people that turn up to listen to him.