Baptizing Jesus | Jesus Begins 3

In which John and David discuss Jesus' baptism. As you might expect we attempt to peel back some of the layers of allusions and backgrounds that help us see the story in new and deeper ways. We read backwards from this event into the Old Testament to show how the original audience might have understood things.

Episode 44 of the Two Texts Podcast | Jesus Begins 3

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Transcript

 Transcript autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] David: Well, John, we are into episode three of season three, which is about the beginning of Jesus. And we've not yet talked about Jesus too much just yet, because we were talking about John the Baptist, which is so important to the beginning of Jesus, of course, in his ministry. Isn't it.  

[00:00:17] John: Absolutely true. We can't really begin with touching on John and, and I think hopefully our listeners will have really enjoyed engaging in and given that a little bit of air time, I do tend to think we, we skipped over John A. Little bit too thinly and a lot going on there. So it was nice to hang around that for a couple of episodes. 

[00:00:38] David: Yes. absolutely. And it does help us because the way that John leads into Jesus's ministry and all of that sort of background helps us where we're going to talk about today, which is the baptism of Jesus. And so if we were to begin here, there's this work we've not done, which helps understand how Jesus is being presented by Luke, actually to his reading. 

[00:01:01] And to help us then understand Jesus. So we're going to jump straight into Luke chapter three and just a couple of verses in that chapter that you're going to read for us,  

[00:01:10] John: I would be honored to it's a beautiful passage and it starts at verse 21, Luke chapter three. And it says this when all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized to an, as he was praying, heaven was opened. And the holy spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove and a voice came from heaven. 

[00:01:35] You are my son whom I love with you. I am well-pleased now. Jesus himself was about 30 years old when he began his ministry, he was the son. So it was thought of Joseph. 

[00:01:54] David: And you don't want to continue with this horrendously long list.  

[00:02:01] John: No, no, I got, I got the difficult names last time. It's so, so we're not, we're not going to go for, for our, for our listeners. It is essentially Luke's genealogy. They're taking us all the way back  

[00:02:12] David: Mm.  
 

[00:02:13] John: Adam onto God. So, so that's a pretty exciting genealogy. 

[00:02:17] David: So, and maybe a question I would just want to leave hanging there. Maybe we'll come back to this in either later in this episode or in the next episode, but there is a question to ask, why does Luke choose now? To bring a genealogy. Right? So, w we would probably read Matthew first because it's the first gospel. 

[00:02:37] And so we come to that and he begins with a genealogy that sorta makes sense to us. Doesn't it? Like, here's the, here's where this guy's come from. And then you get Luke, you get his birth story, you get all of these miraculous accounts around the birth of Jesus. All of these sort of interesting things happening. 

[00:02:53] He's been to the temple. We're introduced to his cousin now in his ministry, he gets baptized and. And, and I don't mean this irreverently, but somebody could be forgiven for thinking, oh, did he then realize, oh, I forgot to put a genealogy. 

[00:03:10] I better just do it now.  

[00:03:11] John: And of course, if you, if you've read the opening verses of Luke's gospel and the way Luke positions his gospel, then of course the conclusion would be no, he hasn't forgotten. This is a very well managed insertion and a very carefully designed insertion to help with the story. And of course, what's fascinating. 

[00:03:31] It is a link between. The, the words of the father, the anointing of Jesus, and then the beginning of the ministry of Jesus. And of course being challenged in that ministry, straight off the bat, by the adversary and the wilderness. So, so it's a, it's a very, very interesting moment to have that insertion. 

[00:03:49] David: And that's probably helpful for you if you're listening in your car and you've not got your Bible open while driving, which, w we want to encourage Bible reading, but we don't want to encourage driving while reading your Bible in.  

[00:04:03] John: Trivia. 

[00:04:04] David: E w what's important is over the next few episodes. As we talk about this, you do have this baptism, then you have this genealogy, then you have Jesus, his temptations. 

[00:04:14] So that's your sort of 40,000 feet view of what we're dealing with right now. And I think it's helpful to bear in mind, just as you said there, John, this is the, this is the sequence we're dealing with. This is what's happening. It's like, Hey, here's John. The Baptist. Jesus is baptized by John the S the events we'll talk about today. 

[00:04:33] Relate to that are all to do with the beginning of Jesus' ministry. Here's a genealogy, here's a temptation in the desert. And then he's going to turn up in the synagogue, ready to begin his first sermon. And it would be great for you as you listen to the various parts of these episodes to think through how they're all held together by, by.  

[00:04:53] John: Yeah, very, very, very good. And again, it's recognizing I'm sure. Our, our listeners are getting into this. If they're not already, it's recognizing that the gospel writers, have a clear agenda as they're moving through these, aren't just random thoughts and stories. Plugged together, but there is that they are taking us on a journey and the journey is not only to show the magnificence of Jesus. 

[00:05:19] Of course, it's the center of the story, but a particular can we say agenda that, that each gospel writer has in presenting Jesus and the story of Jesus any particular way to help us all as, as followers. So, yeah, very good. 

[00:05:33] David: So let's, let's jump into this particular text then that we've read that Luke 3 21 through 23, and we'll spend a bit of time in this, John, and then that will kind of push us out from from there. So, so, so Jesus turns up to be baptized and you actually see if you followed the last couple of episodes, there's a. 

[00:05:54] Chronological overlap here for a second, because we ended in the last sort of place of, of John being locked up and put in prison. But now we're talking about Jesus being baptized, which we know from other reports is by John. So Luke's just sort of almost given you John's story and a little, a little. 

[00:06:13] Nice contained few paragraphs, but this moment know about Jesus Jesus's baptism. This is happening before John gets locked up. And so this is the Jesus has not been baptized by somebody else. So yeah. So where do you want it? Where do you want to jump in on, on that?  

[00:06:29] John: Well, I think, a couple of just beautiful normal type things to recognize there is that I love how Luke introduces us to us. It's, there's something of normalcy here. And in the tax, Luke, Luke tells us when all the people were being baptized. Jesus was baptized too. So, so, so there's a sense in which the other gospel writers help us with this, especially John, where, where you get a recognition of Jesus by John the Baptist. 

[00:06:56] But, but there is a sense in which this is a. Of routineness in the ministry of John people are getting used to his message, his baptism of repentance. There are clearly crows and other people being baptized. And then Jesus sort of out of the obscurity of that crowed enters into this, this amazing moment. 

[00:07:18] And of course it is a spectacular moment, but sometimes we get, we lose the spectacular moment in the ordinariness of this moment that, that actually. The father speaks, the spirit comes, but Jesus, at one, respect is one of many being baptized that day and, and he steps into the ordinariness of this more. 

[00:07:41] And we see something supernatural, spectacular, and other happening. And I think it's a beautiful, without, without over cooking it, I think there's a gorgeous motif there. This idea that the supernatural wants to invade the ordinary moments of our lives wants to come into the every day. And under the sense of which Jesus parks into that every day experience on jet into that routineness something of the glory and majesty and power and ungrace of the Lord is demonstrated in this experience. 

[00:08:18] I, I just, I love the context of the David. I love, before we get to the, the, the magnificence of this moment. There is a normalcy to it which is quite beautiful. And I think it leans into the the incarnation. It leans into this transcendent, an intimate God, this God who is other. And yet he is one of us. 

[00:08:35] It's just an incredible idea. 

[00:08:36] David: I wonder if the idea of the normalcy of it actually maybe helps with even a very subtle sort of theological. Question that's raised, right? So Jesus comes to be baptized while all the other people are being baptized. And perhaps some people think, oh, wait a minute. Because when we were introduced to this story, John NovArtist was in the desert, proclaiming a baptism for repentance and the forgiveness of sin. 

[00:09:08] And so somebody, might be thinking, well, wait a minute, why is Jesus. Turning up for a baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Why is Jesus turning up for a baptism of repentance? And that would be a fair question to ask. I th I think wouldn't it.  

[00:09:25] John: Yeah. 
 

[00:09:26] David: But the way we ask questions can be, can be really important. 

[00:09:29] I think. And sometimes we, we have a tendency of starting in the wrong place to ask the question and, and I think so we think, well, are we suggesting that Jesus was a sinner or are we suggesting that Jesus had some things he needed forgiven from, but the way that you phrased the question or the conversation just there, I think actually leads us into a more healthy way to ask this question that Jesus is participating in this. 

[00:09:54] In this, could I say reform movement? That's happening there? We talked about this in the last couple of episodes that, that what John, the Baptist was doing was creating a location of God's mercy and grace outside of the temple. And so my way of reading this would be that Jesus, isn't going to. What do you call it to be baptized by John? 

[00:10:20] Because he needs forgiveness for his own sins, but he's rather participating in what's going on and is symbolized by John. And I think, I think the math. Matthew's gospel helps us a little bit with this because when Matthew gets to the point that Jesus gets baptized, he says, oh, Jesus does this to fulfill justice or to fulfill righteousness depending on how you translate it, which I think connects to this idea here, that Jesus is saying here, this, that the God is breaking out from the exclusivity Of the temple, which would be a very, very Lukin motif that we're going to see at many points in Luke's gospel. 

[00:10:57] But then the flip side of it, what it makes me think. Johnny. I remember when I was a young student encountering this and being very troubled by why is Jesus being baptized for repentance. And then, and then. It struck me many years later that, that this is bigger community approval. And, and here is where our families are realizing. 

[00:11:16] Yeah, Jesus probably went to the temple in his life and he probably went to the synagogue and he would definitely have participated in the day of a tournament, rituals and feasts and fasts and all this. And I can't imagine Jesus saying. Sorry, sorry, mom, I'm not going to that because it's not necessary for me. 

[00:11:36] And so, so you've actually got this broad picture of, and I love that. That's why the way you said it, but just the normality of Jesus participating with what everybody else is doing and thereby approving of that normality and supporting that.  

[00:11:52] John: totally. I think, I think there is a powerful affirmation of John also in this and the way that John is preparing the way. So there's a sense in which, by submitting himself to baptism the baptism of John, though, there is absolutely no hint that Jesus. Is getting baptized because of a repentance issue. 

[00:12:14] There is absolutely 100% and affirmation of this as a message and the affirmation of John himself as the harbinger. And I think that is, that is crucial. Important. And there's also, I think there's a beautiful, deeper idea even within this, that somehow the, the humility required to be baptized in public in such a way. 

[00:12:40] It's also something attitudinal. David, I think it's saying something of the profound attitude of the son of God and flesh himself that he is submitting himself to the Jordan. I, I, I hear, I don't want to stretch this too far, of course, but I hear the nuance. I hear the echo of Nierman the leper. 

[00:12:58] Refusing to get baptized in the Jordan because we've got rivers that are better back in Syria. Why on earth am I getting baptized? W why, why on earth am I being asked to dip in such a filthy river? And there's that sense in which this man of substance, this man of standing this amount of position goes no way. 

[00:13:17] I'm going into that. And here's God and flesh. I mean, here's, here's the creator and the sustainer of the universe submitting himself to be dunked in this river. By this wild man under is something of not only the affirmation of John, but I think there's something of the profound attitudinal position that Jesus is taking here of, of incredible humility, which I think then if we pick up, if we pick up, the words of Isaiah, I think he's leaning into he's grabbing hold of. 

[00:13:50] Servant of the Lord idea. This I I've come to fulfill the purposes of God. I haven't common in, in the normal expected way of, of conquest, but I have come to conquer it by service, by humility, by surrender. And I think that this moment of stepping into the Jordan and allowing John to baptism is an incredible attitudinal humility, which, which is a marker for the rest of his ministry and what he continues to do. 

[00:14:21] I think there's something really beautiful in there in the heart of that. 

[00:14:24] David: They're really they're really, really is. And I think that that contrast then from what you're seeing there to what happens next becomes quite interesting. Doesn't it then if you guess,  

[00:14:36] John: Hmm. 
 

[00:14:37] David: because. 

[00:14:38] I totally agree with everything you've said that it's normal it's approval, but then as he was praying, heaven was opened. You kind of get the vibe that now we've left normal.  

[00:14:48] John: Yes. Yes. And again, I think that is really magnificent. I think this what we're seeing in the gospel of Luke all the way through, up to this point, Is the ordinary enter, enter Jack and enter splicing the intertwining with the supernatural and the glorious, you've got Zachariah and the temple praying, the angel shows up. 

[00:15:14] You've got Mary doing her thing. The angel shows up, you've got, you've got Ana and Simeon praying and prophesying in the temple over, over, over the child. Jesus, you've got these beautiful moments. Ordinariness. And then into that calms the supernatural here's here's another of those moments as Jesus was praying, my goodness, there's a thought, I mean, what was he praying when, when he entered into that water, but again, that, that disposition of humility. 

[00:15:42] Positions, and then suddenly have an opens and two dramatic things take place, which are spectacular and supernatural and out of the ordinary and not expected. And it's all about positioning this, this God in flesh for this incredible ministry that we're, we're now about to observe as he launches forward. 

[00:16:08] David: I think that's what actually is broader going on in this whole, this whole section. Isn't it? This the sense of, of this connection of heaven and earth and everything like that. And I and I think I often think. What this does to everybody standing around as well. And that, and that I think starts to unpack as, as we lean into these, these verses, isn't it, there's, there's definitely the something going on, which is helping people join some dots helping people sort of make some things that are, that are going on. 

[00:16:39] And and then we get this. This holy spirit narrative coming again. And I think it's easy to then start to think forward about the role of the holy spirit in Luke and then enact. But of course the holy Spirit's being this key player throughout the story. That's got us to this point in the narrative, hasn't it?  

[00:16:59] John: I mean, he is all over the first four chapters of Luke and there is a, there is a saturation of charismatic activity that we've already experienced and seen. So, so if you're following the. The pattern of Luke, the trajectory of look, then this is, this is sort of not a shocking moment. This, this sort of will feel strangely to use the word again, normal. 

[00:17:24] In the context of this, we have seen the intervention of the spirit before. We have seen the holy spirit come upon people touch people, fill people already in the gospel of Luke. And I, he engages in a dramatic, unique way onto Jesus himself at this moment. So it's, it's not a certain new introduction. 

[00:17:44] This is another sort of, lane in this, in this holy spirit, saturated narrative so far. 

[00:17:52] David: there's a few moments. Can a little few verses that, that I think we want to jump in and look at some other texts. The first, I just would love to draw a parallel with them. I'd be curious. Your thoughts on John is. Well, I'm in, let me just clarify what I mean by that. I think when Luke's shaping some of this narrative, he there's there's expectations and prophetic language shaping the background of this isn't there. 

[00:18:16] And we've seen this in the Magnificant we've seen this in Zechariah's song. I was just looking at Isaiah 10, just towards the end of Isaiah 10, the beginning of Isaiah 11. If you can sort of hold. Everything that we've talked about over the last two episodes. And then, you know where we're at right now, think about thinking about this. 

[00:18:38] As I had 10 verse 33 says, look, the sovereign Lord of hosts will lop the bows with terrifying power. The tallest trees will be cut down the lofty brought law. He will hack down the thickets of a forest with an ax. And I wonder if, if some, if somebody goes, oh, I'm going to Axe. yeah, John, the Baptist was talking about, things. 

[00:18:58] Cut down and thrashed and, he was, he was served coming in ready to go. Wasn't he, sir? John,  

[00:19:05] John: yeah, 
 

[00:19:06] David: Look at John in Luke chapter three, verse nine, the ax is already at the root  

[00:19:10] John: yeah. At the root. 

[00:19:11] David: And so, so I find myself wondering, Isaiah is such a huge text. People of Israel, particularly at this point in history, but still remains. 

[00:19:19] When John's talking about acts at the tree, you are people thinking, oh, wait a minute, this sounds a bit, a bit like Isaiah in, in chapter 10. Right. But then what's really interesting. Permit me bouncing around a little bit. So this ax is going to be hacked. The Lord's act is coming to clear out the, and, and even, and Lebanon with its majestic trees will fall. 

[00:19:40] So, so even the power centers are going to be affected by this accident. I can't think of. A person, even like Luke, who's aware of these prophetic texts, isn't drawing parallels between Jesus and, and what's going to happen here, but then you get this lane of the very next lane. As you're being beginning of Isaiah 11, a chute shall come out from the stump of Jesse and a branch or grow out of its roots. 

[00:20:06] So there's this there's this clearing happens by the Lord, including the big power centers being brought down. But a shoot, one of these, one of these hacked off stumps and it will be, it will be the one of Jesse, w we'll have this shoot of course, Jesse being David's father. And just in a few verses, you're going to read this genealogy of Jesus. 

[00:20:25] And guess whose name appears in there? One of Jesus's relatives, ancestors is, is Jessie. So really fascinating then. So, so John's, if you lay these two. My, my Bible app actually allows me to do this, but if you lay Luke three next to Isaiah 10, and the beginning of chapter 11, you can see John the Baptist talking about the threshing floors and the chopping of things down and devise our tens, doing the same thing. 

[00:20:50] Now we have little bit of this route from the, from, from the line of Jesse and then Isaiah 11. To the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding the spirit of counsel and might the spirit of knowledge and the fear of God and his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord. 

[00:21:12] He will not judge by what his eyes see or decide, but what his ears hear. But with righteousness, he shall judge the poor decide with equity for the meek of the earth, and then really interestingly, just first. The righteous shall be the belt of righteousness, the belt around his waist, faithfulness, the belt around his loins and the Wolf shall live with the lamb and the leopard lie down with the goat. 

[00:21:34] It's so, so like, this is a really significant passage in Isaiah about the hope for the future. And I just, you can get a little crazy with parallels in the new Testament, can't you, but these just seem to fit really nicely together that you can't help, but think. I, I think, I think we're supposed to go look at this passage.  

[00:21:55] John: Absolutely. No, no, absolutely. I, I would agree. And again, it's, it's leaning back into what we've reflected on before. It's not reading backwards on, if you read the end of Isaiah 10 into 11,  

[00:22:09] David: Hmm.  
 

[00:22:10] John: Backwards from the baptism of Jesus and the language of John and, and what happens at the baptism of Jesus. 

[00:22:16] You're going at the very least you go, oh, that's interesting. And maybe more than that, you're recognized and it's more than interesting. There is, there is a powerful, prophetic connection here that is being not obvious when we read Isaiah 11 on its own, but become. Obvious as we read Isaiah through the lens of the ministry and work of Jesus and of course we, we do get this life of the spirit. 

[00:22:43] Calming of the holy spirit on Jesus. And it's not simply a spirit to come on him to empower him, but to give him a range of application and ability in ministering to the, the, the whole strata of the society that he's about to touch and, and speak to administer to. And that whole sort of sense. 

[00:23:07] Language of Isaiah 11 there, but with righteousness, he will judge the poor undecided with equity for the meek of the earth. Again, that really does fit with Luke's understanding of, of Jesus, this, this, this Lord of the margins, this, this God committed to status reversal. This, this God who is even announced by the poor, in terms of his birth. 

[00:23:32] And who grows up in a relatively obscure context. And yet as a son of man, he seeks and see is the marginal length, the lost those who are, are being cast out by society. So there's a beautiful connection there. Absolutely. And, and again, it's the value of reading backwards and allowing some of these magnificent passages to light up for us in the light of Jesus. 

[00:23:59] And they, they, they do. 

[00:24:00] David: And it's worth repeating that sometimes when you talk about reading backwards, it sounds like you're asking a lot of the reader. And I think that probably for you and I, we are asking a lot of each other,  

[00:24:15] John: Sure. 
 

[00:24:16] David: know, to, to, to pick up these, these nuances, but, but these are the texts. That everybody's marinated in, in Jesus's world. 

[00:24:25] So it's, this is like, I, I have some friends that are big fans of Marvel movies and, and they can watch if I watch a Marvel movie with them, they'll go, oh, by the way, that's an illusion to this over here, they get all of those illusions.  

[00:24:40] John: Absolutely. 

[00:24:40] David: Imagine, imagine a culture that takes Isaiah more seriously than Marvel movies. 

[00:24:47] So people get those nuances. You can't just throw away certain, certain lines and not, and people don't go, wait a minute. I know what that's from.  

[00:24:55] John: Yes, absolutely. No. It's 100%. Right. And, and of course for us, we're, we're not marinated in that, we aren't, this isn't our natural default. I have set in those Marvel movies and had to have, various members of my family explain what the heck is going on. And at one level, at one level, I just want to go and watch. 

[00:25:16] Right. I, it just, just leave me alone. Let me enjoy the movie. It gives them a Breanna rest for five minutes. I can turn before phone off and just enjoy it. No, no, but dad  

[00:25:24] David: didn't come here to study.  

[00:25:27] John: Indeed. And, and, and there is a, a tremendous sort of analogy there in terms of the Bible. One, at one sense, we can read Luke chapter three and Luke chapter four and know nothing about Isiah and it's still magnificent and you still enjoy the movie and it's still, oh, that's cool. 

[00:25:44] But then if you're prepared to. Connect the dots then suddenly that little line in the movie becomes, whoa, that's loaded. That's amazing. That's deeper than what it comes across. And that is that, that is the, and I know this isn't easy for all of us, but that is the call of every follower of Jesus. 

[00:26:06] That's the call that we, we mustn't be Lizzie with these glorious tax. We mustn't simply settle for the abridged version. But, but we must recognize that that just as the genealogy in Luke connects Jesus to S to centuries of history. So the appearance of Jesus is connected to centuries of teaching prophetic ministry, our understanding and expectation. 

[00:26:36] This is not random. This is not just another event. These are all. Fondly connected together. And and when we see that something, I think something really lights up within us and we've, we've had the joy of seeing some of those things we thought, wow, I've never seen that before credible, 

[00:26:56] David: And some of these things are just like you say, they're illuminating aren't they, they just bring a range of color. It it's it's I don't want to use the wrong metaphor to describe it, but, but like, you see, you can read Luke 3 21 to 23, and it is marvelous as a standalone. Right. But, but it's like, Oh, let me say it like this. 

[00:27:18] It's like, it's like, you're watching it, but your internet, connection's not great. So it's not in HD. And then, and then, and then some, you arrive at somebody's house and all of a sudden your wifi connects to their super fast wifi and w wait a minute. It's in 4k now. And, and, and it's not that you couldn't follow it and enjoy it when it was a little bit pixilated in that. 

[00:27:38] But, but, but all of a sudden, Comes alive in, in, in new, in new clarity, when you can start to overlay the, or read backwards, which had a beautiful phrase. I love that. I love that way of that way of describing it, John. So, so yes. So the holy Spirit's on him, let's, let's just keep looking at the text a little bit. 

[00:27:58] And, and so that's carrying a lot of weight and symbolism for what is going on here. Yeah. 

[00:28:03] Do you have any thoughts? This, this little light in bodily form, like, like a dove. I mean what's where do you go with something like that?  

[00:28:12] John: Well, it is, it is unique to look at that. So, Luke is, is showing us here that, that you've got an embodiment of the holy spirit in this, in this moment. W when you compare it to the other, the other gospels, no other gospel radio quite puts it like that. And there's, I think for me, there's a couple of things that, that grabbed me about that. 

[00:28:35] I think for Luke, there is an importance around the holy spirit. That really is not an optional extra, it's not an add on to the text, but something that's seen various. Importantly, and, and it could be in some ways the physical. Of this description is about getting us to understand that justice. And I don't want to over cook this, but just as God, the son is incarnated into physical form. 

[00:29:02] So we see as sort of a spirit Carnation here that the holy spirit is incarnated, not, not in the, in the strictest sense, but he takes a physical form and engaging with the physical form of God, the son, and you get something very, very. Solid, very tangible, very physical very identifiable in the work and person of the holy spirit. 

[00:29:26] He's not, he's not mystical and far off, but he is now come near into the context of this. And I, I think that that's, there's a sense in which I think that sits there. Luke doesn't want us to miss this and the, the holy spirit could have just caught. And gone on and, in a, in a relatively non-visible sense and yet we see him and, and of course, reading forward into the book of acts. 

[00:29:54] There is, there is not a direct parallel, but certainly a connection that on that first outpouring of the spirit, on the gathered followers of Jesus in acts chapter two, we have lots of physic color. Going on. You've got wind, you've got fire. You've got, of course the sort of speak in another line, which is, which is the one, the ones that sort of is the most famous aspect. 

[00:30:22] But if you think of the wind and the fire, they are dynamic physical expressions of the spirits calming. And again, is that we don't want to sort of hunt down the physicality. We don't want to. Start worshiping far or worshiping wind or, keeping dogs as pets or anything like that. But it's the sense of this is this is presented to us in a deeply physical impactive dynamic, a way that we should pay attention that the holy spirit is among us. 

[00:30:54] And I think, I think in, in sort of those things, there's a little reflection, worth concern. If you anything to add that? Have you got some thoughts on it? 

[00:31:03] David: Yeah. 
 

[00:31:03] I mean, so just, just to clarify, for anyone that's just tracking with what John's saying, of course we, we're not saying that the holy spirit doesn't appear it. Jesus baptisms in the other gospels, but it's the way that the. Phrases it isn't in bodily form. He say, if you were to, if you were to read mark, you might get impression that this is maybe a bit of a vision or just a way of trying to, and, but Luke definitely wants to say something, it's this language of the body leanness that you're picking up on, which I think is, is really interesting. 

[00:31:35] I I've often wondered about the symbolism of the dove. It does get a lot of good press in in the west don't they? And I remember somebody saying to me once, it's funny that we, that we, we don't like pigeons unless the pigeon is white and all of a sudden, so like I remember, I remember being being a funeral once and some doves were released at the grave site. 

[00:31:59] I remember having this search lens moment of how everybody was like, oh, this is a beautiful moment. And I remember thinking if they were pigeons, this would not be a beautiful moment. And as I understand it, there's, there's not a hugely significant difference, biologically between doves and pigeons, just so, and then in. 

[00:32:19] In this sort of Jewish context, doves are, are the offering that poor people bring to the temple, as we see even happen in Jesus's own life. So I find myself curious and I have, this is just more of my own musings junks. I don't have answers for this. I have suspicions, but that when the holy spirit does appear in bodily form, he appears like a little. 

[00:32:45] Not very significant animal. Now my suspicion in Western tradition is that the reason that we really like doves is because of this exact text. Right. So I think, I think Luke is responsible for a great piece of PR work for four and sorry. I mean, I mean, but that sounds more irreverent than I meant it to be forgive me, but I think the reason. Yeah. 

[00:33:09] People like doves. I think the reason that people have doves at funerals to be released is because of this exact text that they become symbolic of spirit. They become symbolic of something of something spiritual. I think without this particular text, I think a lot of people are going well, they're just, they're just white pigeons. 

[00:33:27] And we don't like pigeons really that much they're, they're sort of not very nice. So, and as a result of that, we think of doves as fancy. And pure and spiritual. So. 

[00:33:38] we, we read this text as Barbara and people go, oh Yeah. 

[00:33:40] The spirit came down as a Duff. I wonder John, I just wonder if you were reading this in the first century, if you might. 

[00:33:48] Like, like, like a dove say, well, that's that's not, that's not how I would expect God to appear. And I can't think of a comparative modern example that wouldn't sound too offensive to us, but you get what I'm well, and actually, maybe one of the ways is how would you read this text if it said the holy spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a pigeon,  

[00:34:13] John: And I think I was one of the things I suppose I was trying to dig into with its own too weird. I think you've got God, the son in flesh, standing in a river, humbly submitted himself to the, to the pathway of a servant. This is a radical moment that most people won't understand until years and years later this'll be understood. 

[00:34:37] And, and  

[00:34:38] David: they're watching this and going. What's actually happening around us just  

[00:34:41] John: Exactly. Exactly. I don't mean you and I, and people like us and others have studied these tacks and I, my most drops open then, or when I think of who is in the water, what he's submitting himself to and what's going on. And then you get the holy spirit coming in bodily form. And, and in a form, which, which may raise some eyebrows but again, you get something of not only the physicality of the moment, God entering into the physicality of our world, which I think is an unmissable motif here, but also the humility of the form human form and the form of a dove under something really powerful. 

[00:35:18] And of course, for, for me, David, Can't help, but also hear the nuance of Genesis one here. So, when you, when you think about Genesis one, it says, and the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the spirit of God. Some translations have moved somehow of Harvard. 

[00:35:42] Over that. And it's the, it's the word that half, and, and it, it literally is the idea of, of hovering or trembling or moving. Now this could be just me and you pushing this far too hard, but here, here you have. A spectacular creative moment. God bearer sheet Bara, Elohim, go home in the beginning. God creates the heavens and the earth. 

[00:36:11] He steps into a moment of time. And starts to do something, but before he speaks the word before the father speaks the spirit hovers the spirit as it were, is moving, whatever that means. We're not quite sure exactly what the hovering trembling moving sort of means, but you've got this moving of the spirit in some way before. 

[00:36:37] On God said in verse three. So before the words of the father, you've got this hovering trembling moving of the spirit. Now that could be, we could be about to read far too much into this, but, but I can't help, but notice. The pattern in Luke three, that before the father speaks, it's the spirit who comes on Jesus in this physical form. 

[00:37:05] And of course, if he comes in the physical form of a bird, There is a sense in which there is a hovering, a trembling of the wings. Disparate has to behave in such a way that there is some form of hovering action over and around Jesus before the father speaks these words and, and in two momentous moments that changed the world, the creation of the world, and then the redemption of the world. 

[00:37:33] And in the life of Jesus, we have a spectacular. Spirit moment then word moment, which, we haven't even got to yet. But spirit moment and word moment, and we have a spirit moment. And then a word moment about the happen at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus. And a river in the wilderness, Juno, it's all you're going. 

[00:37:56] There's something, I think there's something amazing going on here. I don't want to over cook it and ruin it, but neither do I want to ignore it because, because it seems like there's a connection between Genesis one and the baptism of Jesus. 

[00:38:09] David: When we talk about connections and when you're reading backwards, I don't think you often need to get too stressed about these things. Do you, there can be a sense of it. 

[00:38:19] Can you tell me that Luke was definitely thinking this? No, I'm not. We're not saying that Luke was definitely thinking that. But it's kind of interesting. It's kind of, and, and if the net result of this is it makes us go, oh, oh, why is that? That's pretty cool. What God might be doing there. Then, then that just opens our hearts up to what you do to what is going on. 

[00:38:39] So you, you, you, and sometimes, and was Luke thinking of. Maybe not right, but when you're so deeply immersed in a particular culture, like, like here's something I knew I had this old, old friend as in a friend who was very old and I, one of the things I loved about this man was he loved screen. And he would talk and read the Bible all the time the net result was. 

[00:39:05] And I, and I, and I mean this with, I mean, I mean, this was the deepest respect because I w when he, when you talked to him about anything, it kind of sounded biblical. He say, did you know what I mean by that? That he, he was still, I think, The Bible was probably not far off all that he read. So even just a regular conversation, you could hear illusions to bits of the Bible. 

[00:39:28] If you asked him advice, it was biblical advice that come up, but he wouldn't cite chapter and verse. It just was like the way he formed and thought about things. So when you're talking about reading backwards, we're not necessarily imagining Luke anachronistically sat at a desk. Are we with the, with an open copy of a scroll next to him? 

[00:39:48] It might just be leaking out of him that these, so just to sort of set something up for the next sentence, Isaiah 42. Verse five, right? Thus says, God, the Lord who created heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people upon it and spirit to those who walk in. 

[00:40:11] I am the Lord. I have called you in righteousness. And I've given you a covenant to the people and a light to the nations to open the eyes that are blind and bring out prisoners from Dungeons and from prisoners who sit in darkness. Now that's probably flashing a few lights on people's dashboards based on what we've just been talking about over the last few episodes. 

[00:40:31] But. As I have 42 verse five creation of God, spirit being given to people. So, so again, if you're thinking about what John was saying, that beautiful reflection on creation at very least Isaiah can see the connection between God, the creator and the giving of spirit to people. So, so this is not and this, I mean this the honor, what you've said, John, this is. 

[00:40:54] John Andrew's unique connection. This is a, this is a deeply biblical connection to see what we see in the story of creation of the forming of things and the creation of things in the presence of spirit are deeply intermeshed in the Jewish scriptures. So, so there's a part of me when you do that sort of stuff, what you were saying just then it's almost kind of hard to imagine people not drawing that connection. 

[00:41:18] Not feeling and seeing that you, you you've been, you've been taught it from school, make these connections, people, spirit and creation, spirit and creation. So, now where that gets interesting, John, is that the spirit comes down in this bodily form and. And then we get this voice, this voice from heaven. 

[00:41:38] You are my son, whom I love with you. I am. Well-pleased such a, such a, such a cool moment, this little, these few insights that we have in scripture, where you just get this voice that just brings, brings the authority. Two things. And there's lots we could say about this, but while it's fresh in our minds, I was being a little cheeky drawing the Isaiah 42 verse five connection there that we did about spirit and creation. 

[00:42:14] But if someone was to just roll five verses back, just if you need more proof that Luke might be drawing connections for us, Isaiah 42 verse one. Here is my servant, whom I uphold my chosen in whom my soul delights. I have put my spirit upon him and he will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry or lift up his voice or make it hurt in the street, but a bruised Reed, he will not break and dimly burning wick. 

[00:42:43] He will not quench and he will faithfully bring back. Justice. I mean, just so it's, it's one of these kinds of the hairs in the back of your neck stand up, isn't it? Because, cause you've got this. Isaiah 42 verse one, right through to where I read there. Verse seven, again, feels like probably something waiting here that, spirit creation, voice of God, what his voice, seeing Andrew, my son. 

[00:43:11] This is all messianic texts. Now there's that? And that's the little shift. I feel that now we're getting this rooted in creation in God, but the text that we're looking at seeing the connections between Luke and Isaiah is a text about God's Messiah. And I just wonder if the, I I'm convinced the first readers know this. 

[00:43:31] I'd love to be in. I'd love to hear what people were saying, standing by the side of the Jordan.  

[00:43:36] John: Indeed. Absolutely. And I think, I think that is a magnificent connection that these words from the father, which we're about to lean into these words of the father, again, they are looted. They, they seemed like, sort of there's a normalcy about them and that they sound like the sort of thing a father would say and jet. 

[00:44:03] Every facet of the statement of the father is loaded with a profound wit from the scriptures, from the Tanakh itself, which is all about the affirmation of the one. Now standing in the Jordan and the confirmation that what he is about to do, he is doing with the full authority of the father as he goes forward. 

[00:44:28] And it's a very, very exciting prospect and data. 

[00:44:30] David: and that's important for Jesus. But it's also, it's also important for everybody else as well. Isn't it? There's a, there's this double level. There's, there's this sense of the affirmation of Jesus in his relationship with the father, which of course we know that Jesus has this very healthy prayer life. 

[00:44:53] You see this in the gospels, but there is that sense of what has Jesus heard?  

[00:45:00] John: And data. 

[00:45:01] David: Between one and the text is going to tell us in the next verse and one of these beautiful Luke and understatements that you get this, this voice, you are my son whom I love I'm well-pleased and Jesus was 13. So it seems like quite a quick change there, but in the preceding 30 years, what has Jesus heard from the father? 

[00:45:21] I have sometimes meditate. You done this, John and I have no, I have no profound insights. But I think what Luke is trying to show. Is that Jesus relies on the holy spirit in the same way that we rely on the holy spirit that Jesus, his ministry requires the holy spirit. And I don't think Luke is trying to give you the impression that Jesus at 13 years old, used to sit in his bedroom and hear God talk to him. 

[00:45:49] I think I would could I say it like this, that, how has, how has Jesus related to the father in the previous 30 years? I think we saw that at the temple at 12, by engaging in scripture by, by, by praying the same way as you and I engage with the father. So is there a level, this is the first time that Jesus hears father's voice of approval in his earthly life. 

[00:46:16] And that might be a really, really obvious point. But I just wonder if we've often thought about, we don't know lots about Jesus in the previous 30 years. But what if his previous 30 years were not massively dissimilar? Did they have rich humans, previous 30 years, despite the origins And all that? 

[00:46:33] I mean, am I, am I, I might to be stoned as a heretic John  

[00:46:37] John: no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't stone you as a heretic. I think, I think some people will, will maybe get nervous around what we're touching that because, because I think what Luke represents is an all the gospel writers to a degree lean into. As the utter humanity of Jesus on what is fascinating here is that these are the first recorded words of the father to Jesus and the gospels. 

[00:47:05] So we are, we are sort of. Speculating around the silence of those, of those silent years where Jesus, you know at the end of Luke chapter two disappears as a 12 year old and in reappears as a 30 year old, the 18 years of silence, which are just, I think they're spectacular, even though we know relatively little about them, they are spectacular years. 

[00:47:30] And then as he emerges out of that obscurity and silence, He is, he is greeted by these words of profound affirmation from the father. So whatever Jesus has heard or is hearing from the father privately here at the baptism, we are getting it. It's almost like we're being alerted into something profoundly intimate. 

[00:47:56] I, and again, that's finished here where, where we started, there's it. And this is, this is the sort of. The paradox of the baptism of Jesus. There's something very normal about this event. He, all the people were being baptized. Jesus was baptized too. And yet it fields now that we like we are in the middle of something. 

[00:48:19] Profoundly intimate. And it's like a, and it's like the father has drawn back some curtains on a load, us to peek in on something in order to help us understand the workings of this magnificent. Community God, this father, son, holy spirit community that not only came together for creation and came together for the establishment of the people on our earth, but now I've come together and a redemptive purpose to see of the world and feels like, whoa, should, should we be watching this? 

[00:48:56] Should we be here? Or, or, or, or am I, am I supposed to be getting this? And under is something tender. Intimate unglorious about this encounter that we are now seeing and experiencing. And in these magnificent words that we're about to explore. 

[00:49:15] David: I do think it's a narrative intention of Luke to show us that Jesus operates through the holy spirit and therefore that we too can operate through the holy spirit  

[00:49:25] John: Yep. 
 

[00:49:25] David: if it's all silence. 

[00:49:27] But the implication appears to be that Jesus is not hearing the voice of the father throughout his old childhood. Right. He is. Rooted in scripture, rooted in prayer. In, in that the first thought might be, oh, that sounds a little shocking. But of course the Bible is at pains to show us that Jesus is fully human and fully human doesn't mean you're wandering around, a foot off the ground, able to talk and hear from the voice of God, every moment that you do that. 

[00:49:55] And, and I mean, church history has had huge discussions or, and doubled down at every occasion on the full humanity of Jesus and nothing less than that.  

[00:50:04] Think about it like this, John, that means that when we meet Jesus at the start of his public ministry, his training, his relationship with the father, his. 

[00:50:17] Way of understanding what God has called us to be in the world is fully available to all of us. You know what I mean? That, that actually, so what did Jesus do for his education? Well, you could do the same thing, right? You could, you could root yourself in the scriptures, root yourself in prayer. And actually once you maybe remove the initial shock.  

[00:50:35] Man. That's that sounded a little weird, actually has deeply encouraging things, which I think is actually part of what Luke is trying to help us to see is that Jesus is going to perform this ministry through a spirit that is available to, to all people that would call on God's name. And I think, I think that's beautiful and encouraging humbling as well, but beautiful. All the same.  

[00:51:00] John: Absolutely. Absolutely. And the cm scriptures that were available to Jesus are in some ways, kind of say this carefully and reverently more available to us in terms of the forms that we can access. And the phone, this that we can access the men and the cm, holy spirit that came to Jesus that day in bodily form is the same holy spirit that filled the believers in the book of acts and the same holy spirit who wants to engage with me and you in the 21st century with all its wonderful craziness, weirdness and wonderment and, and, and, There is a uniqueness to Jesus that that does stand apart. 

[00:51:39] And yet there is an intimacy and uncommon knowledge in Jesus that allows me and you to draw near and go while with, with this cm, holy spirit. And with this cm words, we can be. As it were his ambassadors, carrying his word on his purpose and his plan to our world in that same dynamic. And I think Dr. Luke tries to do this, that what we see in Jesus, in the gospel, we're sort of seeing a version of  

[00:52:10] David: in the  

[00:52:11] John: church, the book of acts and the two things wrong together, and should perhaps be seen more together than apart. 

[00:52:20] John, I feel like we've been to church, so, so we will jump into our next episode with all of you. And let's begin the next episode where we've ended this one with your, my son, whom I love with you on wealth.  

[00:52:40] come on.