[Replay] How was Joseph Righteous? | Christmas Bonus 3

Christmas gets closer and John and David explore what the gospels tell us about Joseph. There's lots to dig into around the story of this half of Jesus' "parents", and we hope it helps you get into the Christmas mood by spending some time in Matthew's Gospel.

Episode 84 of the Two Texts Podcast | Christmas Bonus 3 (Replay)

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Transcript

Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] Outro: Hi there. And a welcome to another two texts bonus episode for Christmas. I'm here with John Andrews. And we're going to be talking to you today about Joseph.  

[00:00:20] David: Well, John, it's even closer to Christmas now and I think we're now beyond the stage of panic. We're now into the stage of just of just acceptance that if you're not organized now you might not be organized this Chrysalis. 

[00:00:36] John: Come on. Come on. Well, we've got our Christmas lights up here in England and it's all going on. So it's, it's feeling very Christmas. It has to be said. And by the time we are recording this, of course it's evening for me, morning, morning for you. So the fire is lit and it's feeling stuck in Jerome already divot and hope and optimism. 

[00:00:55] So it's all, it's all feeling like Christmas at the moment. So it's good.  

[00:00:59] David: I love it. And our church. We were midway through talking about at advent, which come to the end of it now, actually talking about advent, which is a really interesting thing to do to sort of think about the biblical stories that lead us up to Christmas and the prophecies that lead us up to Christmas which can be a little bit intense. 

[00:01:15] We were laughing about it sometimes. How I think people want sermons sometimes about jingle bells. And we're talking about John, the Baptist and the enhancements of Jesus and everything like that. 

[00:01:26] John: on. That's leave jingle bells for another time. Come on. That's that's do the book mom, come on. It's once a year, we got to do this. Got to  

[00:01:34] David: Absolutely. And so in our last couple of episodes, we talked about Mary and and so we're going to move slightly to a, slightly to the left today and talk about Joseph. So we're, we're, we're we're giving you the two the two exciting characters at the center of the nativity scene around Jesus. 

[00:01:52] So, I know, so we talked last time we were across in Luke's gospel, where Luke gives us quite a lot of focus on, on Mary the Magnificant and all that beautiful, beautiful language. But to talk about Joseph, you find yourself actually jumping across to Matthew, and this is something that, that you and I notice and, and a lot of other people notice that when it comes to the way that we often tell the Christmas story, the way that we talk about the Christmas story, we're actually, or even what we might call the nativity, if you've ever, if anyone's ever gone to a nativity play or watch the nativity movie. 

[00:02:21] What you get ease us or a construction of all of the stories brought together. Doesn't it? It happened. And which creates some interesting, interesting moments for us sometimes. Doesn't it? 

[00:02:33] John: it does. It does. And what, what I love about the birth narrative of Jesus is really by looking at Matthew and Luke separately, we do get very much a feminine view of the narrative where we're seeing the birth narrative very much through the eyes of Mary 

[00:02:52] David: Hm. 
 

[00:02:52] John: in Luke. And there's no doubt about that in terms of some of the beautiful detail of that. 

[00:02:57] And of course, the detail around Mary herself. And then I think we're getting a glimpse of how Joseph. Must've seen all of this. He had to deal with this, how he needs loads of angelic visitation just to keep him on track because it's pretty wild. And I think then that the Bible does something, the gospel writers do something really, really beautiful for us by separating the stories out, which we ultimately put together in one big story. 

[00:03:26] At Christmas time, we, we do see this incredible miraculous event from two different perspectives and how the Lord deals with two individuals very differently in order to help them process what they're about to do. And I think that's really helpful even in terms of our spiritual formation. The Lord comes to Mary and one way he comes to Joseph and another way. 

[00:03:52] Mary is very receptive and Joseph needs some help because he's trying to work out the implications. But, but actually both are reflecting the hearts of spiritual people that are open to the Lord, but needs some assistance from the Lord to make this thing work. And I do love that, that we're given the detail so beautifully in both gospels.  

[00:04:13] David: Yeah. And I think it's worth saying that all of these stories do, they do work together. So it's not that the gospels sit in any contradiction, but even the gospel writers themselves, by choosing to focus on the particular parts of the stories, they do bring out different nuances. Don't they in Matthew, you keep reading the story, you get to this visit of the magi and these kind of, this almost Royal sort of interaction with, with Jesus. 

[00:04:40] But then in Luke's gospel, you have the arrival of the shepherds, the normally ignored the last people that you would tell, they get the angelic hosts telling them first, which almost speaks to Luke's narrative of, of, of messing around sort of status inversion and, and turning things upside down. It does. 

[00:04:59] So, so there's always, I always feel like it's worth saying to people that. Yes. The stories work together. I don't, I think when you layer all the stories together as a piece of history, I think they work. I don't think there's a problem with that. The obviously still requires faith in it all, but, but they're all there, but it's also important to sometimes read the story separately within their own gospels to ask the question, what is Matthew trying to tell me about Jesus here? 

[00:05:21] What is Luke trained to tell me about Jesus 

[00:05:23] John: Indeed indeed, absolutely beautiful. And I think that's really worthwhile keeping in mind and everything we're doing. And we've, we've done a lot of work with our listeners on parables and the miracles of Jesus, where we've, we've really tried to encourage them to hear each gospel Raider for themselves. 

[00:05:42] So they ultimately do work together, but let them speak for themselves. So, so as we dive into Joseph here where we're sort of letting Matthew speak, and we're allowing Matthew to tell us Joseph story, and there's a reason he's telling us Joseph story, and Joseph's way in this particular way, because it is, there are some important details that reflect on to not only Jesus, but under Joseph himself. 

[00:06:05] And I think by implication on to us,  

[00:06:08] David: Should you want to read this for us, John? 

[00:06:10] John: I would love to. It is absolutely beautiful. So I'm going to read from Matthew chapter one, verse 18. Now of course our listeners should realize we're jumping in adversity at Tinder has been a long genealogy before this and the genealogy is important to this story and shouldn't be ignored. We're just jumping into varsity at team for two reasons. 

[00:06:33] One, it shortens our reading. Number two, some of the names are hard to read on, so it's just, what's easier to take a diversity of, I did  

[00:06:42] David: And, and when, when you're driving in your car, you do not need two minutes of ASR, the father Zadok and Zadok the father of it came,  

[00:06:50] John: on,  
 

[00:06:51] David: to 
 

[00:06:51] John: come on. But what wonderful people they were. absolutely. 

[00:06:54] So, so just to make that little caveat, and then we're jumping into varsity attain and it says this, this is how the birth of Jesus, the Messiah. Kim about his mother. Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the holy spirit because Joseph, her husband was faithful to the law. 

[00:07:18] Some set, some versions, he Rachel or just, and he did not want to expose her to public disgrace. He had in mind to divorce her quietly, but after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph son of David do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the holy spirit. 

[00:07:44] She will give birth to a son and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet. The Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Emmanuel. Which means God with us. When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him. 

[00:08:11] And he took Mary Hormoz, his wife, but he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the M Jesus.  

[00:08:23] David: It's such a good passage.  

[00:08:25] John: That's beautiful. Beautiful.  

[00:08:27] David: I I get so excited this I've just working out some stuff for our for our Carol service at church. And, and we're, we're kinda navigating our way through the Christmas story as, as you always should do it, a Carol service. And so I've been kind of reading all these stories and piecing them together. 

[00:08:42] And every single one that I'm reading, I'm like, oh, we should do a two texts on this. And so I'm just really excited that we get to talk about this, this passage today. 

[00:08:53] John: Absolutely. It is, it is truly, truly gorgeous. And of course, in comparison to Mary story, this, this almost feels 

[00:09:01] slightly more clinical, even though it's filled with life and patient and emotion. When you read the Mary's story, my goodness, there's all sorts of stuff going on. You've got direct communication and confrontation between Mary and the angel. You've got the backstory of Zachariah's encounter with the CME and Jill and the temple. You've got the moving of the spirit. It's all going on. I mean, Luke's, Luke's introduction, Luke's gospel, Luke's narrative is so exciting and pulsating and you're involved and you feel like you're being drawn along by the characters. 

[00:09:37] And then Matthew, it all feels quite sort of clinical Mary's pregnant. Joseph has gone to divorce her quietly. The angel appears in a dream, a Joseph doesn't divorce her. And in fact, he takes her home and it almost feels a bit matter of fact, in comparison to Mary's story. But, but I suppose what Matthew is trying to convey to us as somebody's fundamentally huge ideas that are contained in this beautiful passage, easy to read over them very, very quickly, but some of the detail in this passage and some of the detail, of course, in the verses that proceeded, which are hinted at, in the passage, Joseph son of David. 

[00:10:16] I mean, I think that's an illusion to the genealogy. I think some of the detail he contained in here should not be moved over quickly because it feels a little bit clinical or mechanical in nature. Hope that hope that doesn't offend our listeners, but in comparison to Mary, that feels like that.  

[00:10:33] David: oh goodness. Yes, John. And, and it's, it's almost like, I, I say these things that they're funny and, and again, like you, I never mean this irreverently, but, but there's almost a sense that Matthew is trying to rush through the birth of Jesus story. So we can get to the, tell you about the magi, right? 

[00:10:50] Because, because.  

[00:10:52] John: A bit like that.  

[00:10:53] David: This, this seven versus given to you, this is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about. And seven verses later. And you have this wonderfully understated, oh. And by the way, like, think about things. Think about this. Look at verse 25. He did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. 

[00:11:10] And he gave him the name. Jesus that's, Matthew's telling you about the birth of Jesus. Like, like I like again, please no irreverence in Teddy, but I want my money back. I, I want, I want to know there's no room to stay any warrior. I want a donkey. I want a manger. There's all these things that I want that I'm feeling like, know, if you turned up at a church and they said this year's nativity play is based on Matthew, I think they'd be rioting in the pews, John in the,  

[00:11:40] John: Absolutely.  

[00:11:41] David: the Matthew gets beyond that and then spends. 

[00:11:43] Like 17 verses talking about the magi and everything that comes off the back of that as if he's almost thinking, well, this is the real story you need to get here. Wait until you hear what happened next. 

[00:11:56] John: it is, it's quite striking. It's quite striking. And yet, of course even though that is the case, he drops some opps  

[00:12:04] salute, just pieces of gold in these few verses I mean stuff that if we will, especially when we think of a juice of, if we're gonna hang around here for a few moments, which we are my goodness, there is there there's enough material in these few verses to fill every Christmas sermon And your Christmas program over the whole month of December. 

[00:12:26] Because it it's absolutely excuse the pun pregnant with life and truth relating to juice. It's just beautiful stuff. 

[00:12:34] David: And so you're almost jumping in. There's I'm going to use all these ideas today, John, that are going to send a Reverend and I'm going to, I'm going to stop qualifying them. And please, just hope that everybody knows I'm not intended to be, but this there's actually an almost tabloid feel about how Matthew tells this story. 

[00:12:57] So you're getting a very abbreviated story. This is how the birth of Jesus, the Messiah came about. Right? And then he gives you this land. His mother, Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the holy spirit. I mean, that's a headline, like that's a, that's a, oh my goodness. 

[00:13:14] I'm going to have to read this story. Cause there's so much in there. You've got this couple and in a, in a world where it would be highly inappropriate for, unmarried people to be found to be pregnant, this would have huge social implications. It would be quite scandalous. And then he brings it in and he throws in this little comment or through the holy spirit, let's come back to that in, in a little bit, but, start in my opinion, start to see why it's interesting that Matthew started with a genealogy. 

[00:13:43] And why he frames the genealogy the way that he, that he does. That, that, I think if you are a Jewish reader of Matthew, I think you've, you've maybe spot what he's done in the story. Do you, do you think you track with what I'm saying there.  

[00:14:04] John: yeah, yeah, go for it.  

[00:14:05] David: That. So you begin, he begins with Abraham. Let me tell you a story. 

[00:14:09] He said, I'm gonna tell a story about Jesus, the Messiah, and he starts with Abraham. So this immediately to a Jewish reader, you're taking it back to the roots. This is where we start as a people. And he lists you this long list of names, which everybody would be for forgiven for falling asleep during that day of readings. 

[00:14:27] This is, you, there's a few points when you're doing, you read the Bible in a year, or if you're the type of church that are reading the Bible through together, there are a few points where you would forgive even Jesus himself, Jesus would forgive us everything, but he would definitely forgive you for drifting off during the list of names. 

[00:14:42] But the list of names to me is quite interesting because of. Essentially, just a few people who are mentioned in it. Namely the four ladies.  

[00:14:55] John: and data  

[00:14:55] David: So you get this list of men who, which is a very classic way to build a genealogy. Here's the fathers and the, and they can attract them through, but you get Judah, the father of Perez and Zerah and verse three of Matthew chapter one. 

[00:15:08] Oh, by the way, their mother was Tamar. And then we come down a little bit further and we get salmon, the father of Boaz. Oh. And by the way, his mother was Ray Hab. Oh. And boy has, was the father of old bed. Oh. And by the way, Opez mother was Ruth. And of course all bed was king David's grandfathers. That's quite interesting, but oh, wait a minute. 

[00:15:31] But David was the father of Solomon. Oh. And by the way, Solomon's mother. Oh, yeah, she used to be, this is the first one that where Matthew almost breaks protocol and just alert. She says, oh, by the way. And Solomon's mother had been Uriah as wife, and then he gets through the rest of these names and you may know, are lost somewhere around and then you're trying to figure out what, why you're reading this. 

[00:15:55] And I'm tempted to think that what he does, which is quite interesting is he highlights four scandals in, in Jesus's lineage. So in one sense, you've got this beautiful sense of 14 generations from Abraham to David and 14 from David to the Xcel in 14, from the exile to the Messiah, which fits beautifully into a succinctness of fourteens and sevens. 

[00:16:21] But I think what Matthew's always trying to do is saying, oh, wait a minute, these four. Situations have scandal attached to them, which one you, and we can talk about that scandal if you want. But for me, the reason that Scandal's interesting is that he then opens the story of Jesus with a scandalous opening.  

[00:16:42] John: Oh, completely, absolutely completely. And I think that really is a beautiful summary to help our listeners to understand why such a genealogy is in play. You've got a sense of all of these incredible names and people, but the insertion of including Mary, the four women, three of them named interesting. 

[00:17:06] And I'm sure there's a subtext two tax podcast all by itself on Uriah, his wife and why, but Sheba is not actually. But you've got absolutely. And of course those women include not just scandal, but the inclusion of Gentiles within that context. And you've got this incredible sense of, of women being woven into the lane in order to produce something significant. 

[00:17:33] And if you see the way he finishes the genealogy and verse 16, I think it really sets up the headline, which you've kicked off with. He says, verse 16 and Jacob, the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary. And Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah. So, so he is literally in a Jewish context that would normally see the genealogy through the meal lane, in terms of just the high that's referred to he's introduced for women, but he's the final woman. 

[00:18:09] He sat up because he's a boat to introduce this idea of scandal of she's pregnant in a patrol state, which bass could have got a divorced and at worst could have got her stoned. And, but she's not pregnant by Joseph. She's not even pregnant by a man she's pregnant by the holy. And so you not only see sort of, the scandal within here, but you see in each of the, of the women involved, the Greece also involved within this, that each of their stories is a grateful story. 

[00:18:42] Controversial, difficult, but grace-filled where each have been through one means or another drawn in Dilla lineage of divot of, of of Jesus. And now we have Mary as a female vocal point to this, to this particular story. So even though Matthew rates from Joseph's point of view, it is interesting. 

[00:19:03] He sets Mary up. Yes. 

[00:19:05] it's controversial, but he is setting her up in a way where he is heading that controversy off and he is seeking to protect her reputation, but also to reinforce that reputation through the behavior of Joseph. 

[00:19:19] David: and there's an, it's interesting, even the choices, like I dare say in a family lineage, as long as this there's other scandals, but, but it's interesting the way, the TMR story and the Bathsheba story, both of them, women who are essentially vulnerable to the abuses of, of, of, of men. And and that to me is quite interesting, the way that we tell the story of Beth Shebaz, a lot of times you, you hear the best cheapest. 

[00:19:45] Talked about as David and Bathsheba his affair. But when you read the biblical narrative, this is a king praying on a, on a vulnerable woman. It's not, it's not a story that it's, it's not a consenting relationship in the way that that would be. So David, this key king of Israel, the only thing that Matthew tells you about him is, oh, you had a son called Solomon. 

[00:20:07] And that whole story was a mass, which is, she's quite interested in likewise, Tamar, this is Judah. I mean, he's, he's this figurehead of this site of the tribes of Israel. And again, this horrible story with Tamar, but then the little verse five of chapter one where we then insert a couple of non-Jewish characters into the story. 

[00:20:29] I think this is all powerful that the, the, none, none of these women have done anything wrong. That's a really key thing. That's worth noting as well in it. But, but, but, and. Are now Gentile women inserted into the hero genealogy of king David, that, that king David's grandmother and great-grandmother are, are essentially, shouldn't be in the story. 

[00:20:56] If you're, if you were talking about, quote unquote pure bloodlines and things like that. And Matthew, which now this is quite interesting, of course, because they get adopted into the story. And we're going to, by the end of this genealogy, we're going to have a problem that we got, we got to the end of this genealogy. 

[00:21:12] And I mean, this is really disappointing for you. If you've worked hard to remember all these names, you get to the end of the genealogy and then you get, and then there's Joseph. Oh. And by the way, Isn't actually Jesus, his father. And so, so, so this, this for me, this is quite interesting because of that moment. 

[00:21:29] And, and the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary and Mary was the mother of Jesus. So Mary gets drawn into this genealogy of king David. This Davidic line, therefore, I mean, my take John then is that what you're getting in Matthew chapter one verse 17 to 25 is actually an adoption story. And, and that might be why the focus is more around Joseph than it is around even Jesus to that extent, because this is how Matthew setting up this Davidic Bethlehem linked lane of Jesus. 

[00:22:06] Does that, does that make sense? 

[00:22:07] John: I, I, it does make sense? 

[00:22:08] to me and it then positions, although Joseph never speaks in our story. In fact, it's fascinating that all the references did juice of in the birth narrative. He never speaks once. It's is really a man of action which is really quite striking rather than a man of words. So he spoken to, he spoken about, he spoken around. 

[00:22:29] He never actually there's no recorded speech. Isn't that remarkable? Isn't that remarkable? So, so no recorded speech can compare that to marry her magnificent song. And the conversation we have between Mary and Gabriel and Joseph doesn't speak. But what he does do is he. And of course, one of his most significant acts is that he doesn't follow his legal right do what he would be allowed to do. 

[00:22:58] If he phoned up patrol woman had been on fearful to him and was pregnant. He, he actually even before the angel appears he is wanting to act honorably, but of course, what the angel is asking him to do is tick Mary home with you make her, your wife. She is, she, bring her into your world and raise the son that she carries as if he was your own. 

[00:23:27] And it is a remarkable ask at many levels for this, this man, Joseph and having. And the genealogy, others folded into the story who did not belong. There is a sense in which there's a glorious, prophetic irony in this moment that that Joseph could have abandoned Mary. And yet he falls her into his family. 

[00:23:54] He takes her home with him in order to ensure that The, child within her is raised in the context that he should be raised. So it is a remarkable adoption motif. I think that is within there. And, and shouldn't be missed. I think. 

[00:24:10] David: The, the interesting thing of course is as well in the story is that this is clearly something that hangs around Jesus's family for quite some time. They know Joseph knows this son is from the holy spirit. Mary knows this, but nobody else knows this. This is not, know, it's not like Jesus wears, this is a t-shirt and you definitely pick up in the gospels. 

[00:24:32] This sense of a rumor is out there as to as, as to whose as to where Jesus comes from, which is, which is quite fascinating, really th th this family then live with that, that sort of part of their journey, which is quite quite interesting. 

[00:24:49] John: And it is, it is fascinating. David, if you jump over to the sort of Lukin version, you, you have three identity moments in the life of Jesus in Luke. You've got Jesus at the baptism. This is my son. You are my son who I love I'm well-pleased with you speaking, the father speaks to Jesus. And then you've got the first. 

[00:25:09] So that's the first recorded words of the father did Jesus in the gospels are words of affirming his identity. Your may son, the first recorded words of the devil did Jesus and Luke are at the temptation. If you are.  

[00:25:23] David: Yes. Yes. 

[00:25:24] John: And then in between that you've got this gorgeous, that Lukin insertion at the end of the, the, the story that he was the son, so it was thought of Joseph. So you've got these three references to the identity of Jesus. He's affirmed by the father. He's questioned by the enemy challenged or questioned by the enemy. But there is this sort of acknowledged question mark by Luke. He was the son. Well, so what was thought of Joseph? So you get this, I think it does hang around. 

[00:26:00] And I think when Joseph. Says yes to the angel says yes to a bang. I think he's taken on a whole bunch of stuff as well. I think he recognizes that his life is no longer his own and he can no longer simply do what he wants to do, but he'll have to surrender to a much bigger agenda just as Mary has done. 

[00:26:24] And he will have to surrender to that agenda any particular way. Maybe slightly different from Mary's, but, but significant nonetheless. 

[00:26:32] David: And the whole story then that we've got here in, in Matthew. It's really interesting because in the Greek text, Matthew does something quite interesting where the story is about Jesus. But as we said already, it's kind of about the adoption of, of Jesus by Joseph, because there's two things, it's in verse 21 you are to give him the name Jesus, and of course the ends. 

[00:26:56] And he gave him the name Jesus in verse 25. Well, that's very much like a father naming a son in this tradition is that he's now he is now I'm taking him as mine and I'm going to, so that's, that's interesting, but Matthew does something really interesting, which you see in the Greek text, which is verse 18. 

[00:27:15] It begins with Jesus. He's not. All right. So, so in the English text for translation seeks your, this is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about. But in the Greek it sort of begins, Jesus Christ was sort of born this way, or, this is how it came about. This is how it happened. And then the end of the passage, verse 25, the final word in the Greek, which is also during the English is Jesus. 

[00:27:39] So there's a really neat little piece of writing there that, that Matthew bookends, this whole passage, it begins with Jesus ends with Jesus. I mean, it's so subtle, but I think it's beautiful that it's, this begins with Jesus ends with Jesus and they're in the middle. You have Joseph's being told, give him the name. 

[00:28:00] Jesus, which of course means the Lord saves.  

[00:28:03] John: of course, it's beautiful. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful observation, David, I think and, and doesn't that if we wanted to sort of lift that and apply that to our own lives is not a beautiful sort of image of our lives and it begins with Jesus.  

[00:28:18] It really ends with Jesus. It's really all about Jesus. And yet we like Joseph have been folded into his store. We have been brought into this amazing. Story that he is building across the universe and we get like Joseph to play our part in the Jesus story. And I think it's a really cool way to see our lives. 

[00:28:42] It so often we see our lives as well. No, this is my story, and God needs to play his part in my story. But imagine if we could just flip that a little bit and go, well, actually, actually it's his story and I get to play my part in his story. and I think, I think, did Matthew mean that I certainly think there's a book ending idea going on there, but also just a love this, this juxtaposition of, of Jesus at the beginning, Jesus at the end, then sort of Joseph firmly located in the middle, playing his part in the Jesus story. 

[00:29:18] I just love that David. That's a beautiful observation.  

[00:29:21] David: and so his name is Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. I mean, it, which is as well, just, that purpose clause, that this name is not just randomly chosen,  

[00:29:32] John: yup.  
 

[00:29:33] David: which, which I like, but I wanted to just just spin round to the comment that you jumped into verse 19. Right? Cause I think there's some, there's some work to do on how we read and understand verse 19. 

[00:29:47] John: Yeah.  

[00:29:48] David: I'm always reticent to say this because they don't want people to, kind of start looking at their, their biblical texts in different ways. But the way that the NIV translates verse 19, I find a little bit kind of problematic from time to time. But actually I think we struggle a little bit with a lot of the translations on this front. 

[00:30:07] Not because the Greek is complex because I think we have a tendency to miss here. What's being said there. So first 19 in the nav reads because Joseph, her husband was faithful to the law and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace. He had in mind to divorce her quietly. I think you mentioned, even when you read it, the first. 

[00:30:28] Because Joseph, her husband was righteous and that is what the text is. It, Joseph is introduced as righteous, which is really interesting, but then what's fascinating. And this is where I think the nav throws us away a bit because when you hear faithful to the law, which on one hand is what righteous means, you think, oh, he's a law keeper, right? 

[00:30:48] But we're only at Matthew chapter one verse 19. So you're asking a lot to expect everyone to know this, but as this story sort of folds out, we're going to find Jesus throughout this gospel redefine what it means to be righteous. Aren't we he's going to, he's going to change our perspectives on righteousness. 

[00:31:08] And I can't help just think that Matthew is beginning that work here. Right? Almost prepping your heart for what you think righteousness looks like might not be what you think it is because. Th th the, the Greek text sort of essentially again, and it seems to be Matthew Sterling rates. But so we have, because Joseph, her husband was righteous, but Matthew actually, he says, Joseph, her husband being righteous, right. 

[00:31:36] That's that's the way he says it and not wishing to expose her to public disgrace. So we'd read over that. We've heard this story so many times, John, it just sounds really familiar, doesn't it? But actually these two things don't watch because in the Jewish context of following the law, keeping, keeping the law properly, you have to choose between one of those. 

[00:31:59] So if you're really going to do what's, according to the law, you have to take Mary to the courts. You have to take Mary to the village elders more than likely to the people to decide what should we do here. But Joseph decides I'm a sneaker out the back door and hide her. And I don't think that is him being faithful to the law. 

[00:32:20] I think it's actually quite the opposite of that. Yeah. I mean, do you agree with me at that point? Cause I don't want to,  

[00:32:26] So I think what Matthew's doing is really clever. He's actually saying that, and here's the line. If you then go on and read Matthew. So I'm being, I'm being coy with me civilly here, but, but actually I think you're seeing Matthew be righteous in a way that supersedes the law. 

[00:32:42] He actually, his righteousness, he's more than that of the scribes and Pharisees to use Jesus's language because he, he decides actually the righteous, this is what I think Matthew is telling us the righteousness of God goes beyond just punishing someone for quote unquote unproven sin, but the righteousness of God cares for a person. 

[00:33:04] And maybe I'm reading too much into that, but I think that's what Matthew is doing here because Joseph doesn't quite act again, quote, unquote properly.  

[00:33:13] John: I love that? 

[00:33:14] I mean, that's why I sort of, inserted that in the reading. I didn't, I don't like that translation at all. I think it does slightly move you in the wrong direction. And I think you've got here in the same way that when we looked at Mary song, we got this sense of hold on. There's a deeper pool of spirituality in this. There's something going on in her that's being seen and drawn out by the Lord. And the Lord is even, could we argue, responding to that and reaching out to that? It, she's not just a, a Virgin womb. She is a, a deeply spiritual servant of the Lord. I think you're getting the same exact nuance tucked away in this idea in Joseph, that the Joseph is righteous. 

[00:34:05] Therefore he's not okay. He's not following the law on this issue,  

[00:34:13] David: Yes.  
 

[00:34:13] John: which is the spirit. It is. It's. 

[00:34:16] the very spirit of the salvation child in his wife. His wife's womb that, that, the bruised Reed, he will not break. Isaiah says the smoldering wick. He will not. Snowfall, that, that actually, an, an auto controversial story, but, but the moment he, he stands up and he says that the Crow, well, if any of you are without sin, throw the first stone, that's do this. 

[00:34:42] Without, without breaking Moses, he reinterprets the moment. And I think Joseph is doing exactly the same thing here. I think the very spirit that Jesus, the Messiah will live by is being embodied in his, his step father. If you like, it's, it's been embodied in Joseph, he knows the law means this woman. 

[00:35:07] We've, we've got to do this properly. We're going to have to bring this to the light and this is going to be best shame on her worst destruction.  

[00:35:17] I think. No, no, I, I don't want that. There's gotta be a better way to do this. And so, and, and is Matthew describing that that's put this Oxy, that this sort of paradoxically is Matthew describing his lawlessness at this point as righteousness? 

[00:35:35] If it is, it's deeply controversial, having positioned him as, as a son of David and established his genealogy as impeccable, and then he goes, oh, and by the way he's a righteous man, and that's why he's going to divorce her quietly. Because he, he's not going to follow the letter of the law on this. 

[00:35:54] I do love that. I do think there's controversy in there. I think it's deliberate. And I think Matthew and search that right at the beginning.  

[00:36:00] David: Yeah. It's I mean, I was trying to think of an analogy to help us relate to, but I think if you read a text like this as a Jewish person in the first century, the text to your ears would sound something like this sentence. Because Joseph was an upright and law abiding police officer. He never gave a ticket to anyone who was caught speeding. 

[00:36:23] And we would hear that. Well, that doesn't quite work together. Those two sentences are, are not the same. So, and even that metaphor falls apart eventually, but I love what you're saying there that it's just, it's, it's, Joseph's pushing into control controversial space. Isn't he? He's, he's doing, he's doing exactly what we don't expect. 

[00:36:43] And I think it makes a brilliant sentence. Rich Matthew's like, oh, Joseph was righteous. Hey, but wait till you hear what he did. Right. And and, and you're, and so you're reading this again. This can almost this tablet feel you're reading this going well, that doesn't quite figure. And almost as if Matthew is saying to you, oh, and if you're struggling with that, wait until you meet Jesus  

[00:37:06] John: and date and, and doesn't Jesus, Sam self later on, when he opens up probably in the Matthew account, his manifesto of the kingdom, this is what the kingdom of heaven looks like. He, he preempt some of his most wonderful uncontroversial teaching by saying, oh, and by the way, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you, you won't, you won't see the kingdom, this kingdom that I'm describing you you'll mess. No. What on earth does he mean by that? So he's speaking about a group of people who would strain the nut out of their wine glass that would take on their Herb's in their garden. So these are serious law abiding people, and yet Jesus is saying keeping the law. But maybe they're missing the point of righteousness that's going on here. 

[00:38:00] And I think when you see how Jesus engaged and we've touched on this before in various things, when you see how he engages with the pharmacist, I think that's the pull and push of their conversation. You've dotted the I's, you've crossed the T's to use an English analogy, but, but actually you're missing the point here.  

[00:38:19] so so the point here is that Yeah. 

[00:38:24] Mary's in trouble, but Joseph does the right thing. And that is that kicks off the story. W I mean, we're already in slightly choppy water with the genealogy. They had lane doesn't help us. And now we're into serious controversy where Joseph, this, this Paragon of virtue seems to be, as far as the law's concerned, prepared to act subversive. 

[00:38:50] In order to see of Mary and its interest in debit that that's when the angel responds. So, so we sometimes think, okay, so here's, that's what made us well be hung for a sheep as for alarm here, so that's go for it. So, so we think that the angel is responding to the fact or Joseph's about to divorce her, but could the angel also be responding to the fact that Joseph is not prepared to expose her? That actually just as the Lord responds to something in the heart of Mary and says the Mary, your, your favorite, could it be that actually what the Lord sees here is a man that is prepared to swallow the shame on himself in order to spare this woman from disaster and misses. Unmet, maybe, maybe that there's part of the response is, is, is not just to stop Joseph divorcing her, but actually responding to Joseph's righteousness in this moment. 

[00:39:56] I don't know. I, I could be pushing out a bit a bit far, but I, I like, I, I do like the idea of that, that the Lord has seen the heart of this man. This man is prepared to be righteous  

[00:40:08] David: Hm. 
 

[00:40:08] John: by not keeping the law.  

[00:40:10] David: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. Cause you've got, verse 20 after he had considered this a you he's pondering this, so he's, he's not acting rashly. That's definitely the and, and I love what you're doing there, John, because there is a level where Joseph kind of is the bumbling fool of the nativity story often. 

[00:40:28] But, but here you've got, he's, he is righteous, so that's a pretty high praise. He, he doesn't want to expose her to public disgrace. So we've talked about that, but he has in mind, he, he he's, he's wondering, he's, he's wishing maybe I should divorce her quietly, but after he's pondered this, but he's not yet acted on it after he's pondered it, the angel says don't be afraid to take her home. 

[00:40:50] I mean, it's, it's, it's a great point that you make there. This isn't as cut and dry as we often, like, we almost have a, if you go to a lot of Christmas nativity plays that it's almost a repentance moment when the angel meets Joseph and he's, turfing Mary out onto the street and the angels scene. And no back you go inside, but that's not what Matthew gives us here. 

[00:41:12] Is it actually, it's a, it's a pondering, thoughtful Joseph. Who's trying to figure, who's actually trying to figure the, so this is turning into a sermon here, but Joseph trying to figure the righteous way out. And actually the angel gives him this new way of righteousness, which. Actually take Mary home and raise this son as your own. 

[00:41:34] John: And, and if Joseph's going to divorce her quietly, that has implications on Joseph, how do you  

[00:41:39] divorce someone quietly? They live in a  

[00:41:41] David: In a village of 200 people. 

[00:41:44] John: I mean the lesson. So, so the implication David would be, we don't want to read too much into the silence. So hopefully our, our listeners will forgive us, forgive me for one of my boat to say, but, but Joseph can't just abandon her by divorcing her quietly. 

[00:42:01] He's going to have to invest something in setting her up somewhere else. It can't just take her home. It couldn't leave a pregnant girl divorced in the midst of patrol level to the mercy of that context. He would have to find a way to help her start a new life. So again, I think even, I think that's why you get this pondering. 

[00:42:30] He's trying to work out, what am I going to do here? How am I going to get this girl out of this with a, with a going down this incredible route. And of course he has the first of these four dream moments in the Matthew account. I mean, it's quite incredible that Joseph never speaks, but he has four dreams in the space of the few, a few verses of, of the story. 

[00:42:56] This is the first one verse 20, his first angelic dream. Then in chapter two, verse 13, he has the angelic dreamer, but gone to Egypt to 19, the angelic dream about coming back home. And then 

[00:43:09] the fourth dream to 22. Now it doesn't say any angel appeared to him, but he was warned in a dream. 

[00:43:15] And because of that, he withdrew the Nazareth. Again, if I can draw the parallel to Mary song, I think here's a man that's hard, more angelic visitations in the space of a few comparative moments and I've had my whole life. He's a spiritual man. He's a sensitive man. He is in each of the four dreams he has. 

[00:43:39] He immediately immediately response and he doesn't get up and go, Ooh, what happened there? Can someone expect immediately in each of the four occasions, Joseph does something. He acts in obedience. So here's a man. That's not only having four dreams, but he's understanding those dreams immediately. 

[00:44:00] He's able to appropriate those dreams, obey those dreams and that all plays that their sense of spirituality. The sense of integrity righteousness that's within this man. I mean, Joseph's a serious person and the clearly in one form or another, he knows the Lord and he's able to respond to these very, very controversial and extreme moments with massive maturity.  

[00:44:28] David: so one final thing, then I want to make sure that we don't end this episode without his verse 22 and 23. And I'd love to hear what you have to say about that. The, all this took place to what the Lord had said through the prophet, the Virgin will conceive and give birth to a son. They will call him Emmanuel, which means God with us. 

[00:44:52] John: Yes. I actually preached on this yesterday and Manuel from the Matthew account and I cried most of the way through the sermon. To be quite honest with you I was just alluding  

[00:45:01] David: such a beautiful passage. 

[00:45:02] John: it's a magnificent passage and it's one of the greatest names. We have describing the Lord 

[00:45:09] in general and Jesus in particular, in this, the God who came to us, the God who became like, as the God who came for us, I mean, it's just incredible, incredible stuff. 

[00:45:20] It, it draws back to Isaiah. You've got this original context in Isaiah, which is nothing like what we are theater scene here in, in, in the strictest sense of the word a has the king is under pressure, an Alliance of two Kings from the north of well, Israel and Iran are coming to destroy. Isaiah says to a, has asked for a sane guide will give you any saying you want, and they have sort of an, a moment of, is it humility or false humility or pretentious this, he goes, I'm not asking God for a sane. And Isaiah says, well, God will give you one. Anyway, a Virgin will conceive. And in that context, we, we believe that that conception was in the most ordinary sense that a young girl had had a child and the child was the symbol that God was with them in that moment. 

[00:46:10] And here we have no, this incredible prophetic moment, hundreds of years later being fulfilled. And it does show as, again, that in some of these great prophetic statements, Is it Isaiah speaking forward? Is it Matthew reading backwards or is it a bit of both? Is it, is it both going on here that Isaiah, maybe didn't fully understand the prophetic implications of his prophecy to the life of the Messiah, but Matthew is the one who by the inspiration of the holy spirit is charged with connecting the dots and showing us that there is a connection. 

[00:46:51] And in fact, if you look at, if you look at the first couple of chapters of Matthew, I mean, he's got old Testament, prophets all over it. We've got Isaiah in 1 23, you've got maker in two six of Matthew. You've got Hosea in two 15 of Matthew, and then you've got to, you've got Jeremiah and two 18 of Matthew. 

[00:47:11] I mean, he is pulling out the heavy hitters here. These are serious, serious, heavy, prophetic references. And then even the sort of, he will be called the Nazarene. How's this sort of a general prophetic reference. There's no specific prophet he's referring to there, but a general nuance. So, so Matthew isn't, isn't just doing this here on a manual. 

[00:47:31] He is, he's pulling together the great threads of prophetic ministry, which when they happened originally don't seem to have any messianic connection, but it is the writers of the gospels who connect the dots for us. And, and I do think it is one of those examples that the writers of the gospels help us read backwards into the text reading Isaiah seven 14. 

[00:48:01] Does it seem to refer to Jesus at all? But reading through the lens of Matthew's interpretation, certainly we see it come together  

[00:48:08] David: I just recently read Brian Zion's latest book, and he talks about the kind of way that our reading of scripture develops across our life, or perhaps should develop across our lives. And he says, what you find is, is there's a very childish reading of scripture. He said, which is, some people would call it literal readings. 

[00:48:29] And that, that term is very loaded in this is where, where people just read the story and go, okay, that's the story and move on. Right. Is it? And then there's a level of scripture. He says, where, you get older, you read some theology books and you start reading about, and you read things like this. 

[00:48:44] Well, Isaiah didn't necessarily mean this about the Messiah. This was more to do with Hezekiah. And this was a, and, and. I am John den says, and that's a really important stage of our life to get to where we actually do the critical analysis on a tax. Like what actually happened here, why are there different sees between Matthew and Luke, but Zion's analysis of kind of actually of almost the modern evangelical church, is it that's kind of where we've stopped. 

[00:49:11] Right. And as I'm reading his book I was reminded of Philip Yancy's. He's talking about grace, but I think the metaphor works elsewhere and Yancey says one of the best ways to analyze a fraud. We are told is to dissect it. He said, and by the end of dissecting a frog, he said, you have learned a lot about the frog. 

[00:49:32] The problem is the frog is dead. And, and, and, and the problem is, I think a lot of us, we, we stop at that and we go, well, Isaiah probably wasn't really referring to the Messiah in the same way that Matthew is. So I'm not sure where the Matthew should have done this. And Amazon says ends at another level of tech, which you see throughout Christian history, which he calls and the title is just his way of describing it. 

[00:49:54] But he calls it the mystical reading of the text, right, where we're actually, start to read the text. So you, you you've read it and just accepted it in faith. You've also read it and analyzed it and assessed it. But then on top of that, now you're willing to read it, to see this text is deeper than just its words. 

[00:50:12] And that this text actually echoes throughout all of history in different ways. And we can see places where its ripples have new impact, that the critical main of Migos that is definitely not what this text first was understood to be doing. But now, and I think Matthew models this beautifully for us that you can come back to a text and go, wait a minute. 

[00:50:35] If we can open our hearts to the holy spirit, this text is now. Got bigger implications. And at one level, John is a Christian and a pastor who's trying my hardest to follow Jesus. Like I jolly well hope that's the best way to read the texts because I kind of do that every day. Right. I open up my scriptures that are written thousands of years ago and I go, man, I hope this helps me today. 

[00:51:02] This, I hope this gets me through. And I think on a pretty regular basis, I apply bits of tax to my life that would be far removed from the original readers of these, of and raters. And you will do. In fact, every single person that's listening to this podcast has probably done a similar thing. 

[00:51:19] We, we find a verse for a moment that helps us. And we're so grateful to that, and I, I'm not saying don't go doing the critical analysis but just remember there's more to a text. And I think Matthew models this beautifully for us here with this bit of Isaiah. 

[00:51:33] John: And I, I, I love the idea that Matthew would have been in the room. In that post resurrection Prius. Sension don't load from Jesus when beginning with Moses and the prophets and, and bringing in the ratings, Jesus goes, okay, let me, let me just show you where I am. Let me just connect the dots for you. And there's no doubt in my mind that Raiders like Matthew and Matthew does this probably more than most, really does work hard are directly connecting us back to the Tanakh. 

[00:52:11] And he shows us like reference after reference after reference directly. I mean, the other gospel writers do it both directly and indirectly, but, but Matthew, oh, th th this was to fulfill what was written in. This is the fulfilled. What was written in this is the ad over and over again. He does that because he is no reading scriptures. 

[00:52:33] He was raised on through the Jesus.  

[00:52:34] And I think Jesus then is helping him to read Isaiah differently, to read Hosea differently, to read, make it differently, to read Jeremiah differently and to see that there were multiple layers within the words of these original prophets, whatever was going on in the main of these original profits at the time that they spoke. 

[00:52:56] So I, I do love that. I think we're helped by that. and I think the gospel writers model for us a great way to read the scriptures as well through that Jesus lands. 

[00:53:05] David: and they will call him Emmanuel,  

[00:53:09] John: Come on.  

[00:53:10] David: which means God with us. I love what Matthew does here as well. It's so subtle and. Is it, he assumes you're going to keep reading. So what do we know about Jesus so far? He's conceived of the holy spirit. You're going to call him Jesus, because he's going to save people from their sins. 

[00:53:30] And this fulfills an old prophecy where there's a son coming that will be called God with us. And I love the fact that you hang out in Matthew for another 28 chapters. And the very, very final thing that is not only does Jesus say in Matthew's gospel, but the final line of Matthew's gospel is Jesus saying to the disciples and I am with you always. 

[00:53:55] It's just so good. Isn't it. 

[00:53:58] John: It's so good. And it's so good. We should finish the podcast on that note. That is just super, super powerful.  

[00:54:05] David: God with us Merry Christmas. 

[00:54:11] Outro: Okay. So that's it for this bonus episode, we're going to be back with our final Christmas episode tomorrow, just to give you an extra day to listen to that before you get lost in the Christmas world of. Turkey presence and hopefully enjoyable times remembering Jesus. So we're back with you tomorrow until then.  

[00:54:34] Goodbye.