[Replay] Mary Did know | Christmas Bonus 2

In which John and David stay excited for Christmas by continuing to talk about Mary. We're re-releasing a few bonus episodes as we approach Christmas focussing on Mary and Joseph (with support from the other Nativity Characters). This week we're talking about Mary!

Episode 83 of the Two Texts Podcast | Christmas Bonus 2 (Replay)

If you want to get in touch about something in the podcast you can reach out on podcast@twotexts.com or by liking and following the Two Texts podcast on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.  If you enjoy the podcast, we’d love it if you left a review or comment where you’re listening from – and if you really enjoyed it, why not share it with a friend?

Music by Woodford Music (c) 2021

Jingle Bells Ukulele by Musicphrase | https://soundcloud.com/musicphrase
Music promoted by https://www.chosic.com/free-music/all/
Creative Commons CC BY-SA 3.0
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/

Transcript

 Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] David:  
 

[00:00:46] So John, we talked in our last episode from Luke chapter one, verse 26 through to 45, this sort of beginning narrative of the story of Mary. And where we sort of moved on from the from the conversation was roundabout the point where the holy spirit becomes this kind of key feature of the conversation. 

[00:01:05] So what I'd love to do is pick that back up with you today, because there's a couple of PCs if last episode about Mary was our controversial episode cause I feel like we dealt with all of the hot topics in that story. What if, what if we begin here to talk about this this verse 35, where the angel says to Mary, the holy spirit will come upon you and the power of the most high will overshadow you. 

[00:01:32] What like where do they let's jump it. Let's jump into that because this becomes a key point. Not just for this story. This is actually a key theme for Luke and acts. Isn't it? 

[00:01:42] John: It totally is. In fact, he's regarded by many as the evangelist of the holy spirit. So he, he talks about the holy spirit more than certainly the other two Synoptics put together Matthew and mark. He talks about the holy spirit very differently than John talks about the spirit and records, the teaching of Jesus for us in the beautiful, sort of last few moments of Jesus's life before he's crucified. 

[00:02:08] And some of that beautiful didactic insight into the, into Jesus understanding of the holy spirit, which I think would influence scholars in, in later years. But, but Luke is, is showing us from the very beginning, the edge and see of the spirit, the activity of the spirit. He is engaging in the story. 

[00:02:28] He's leading the story. He's driving the story a bit later on when. Gets baptized and water. The holy spirit comes on him in bodily form as a dove, and then leads him into the wilderness. And he goes full of the power of the spirit. He returns, in the authority of the spirit, he, he declares the spirit of the Lord is on me. 

[00:02:48] You just get the sense of the saturation of the work of the spirit in the early part of the gospel, which of course for our listeners is also mirrored in the early part of the book of acts, which is Luke's second book. So you get this outpouring of the spirit there's filling of the spirit that comes on that first gathered Christian community in acts chapter two, after having been promised by Jesus. 

[00:03:12] So, so you get a magnificent. Sort of pneumatology in Luke, Luke is, is showing us what the holy spirit wants to do. He, he showing us high, the holy spirit works. He's not giving us a sort of a systematic theology of the spirit, but he is showing the activity of the spirit, the doing ness of the spirit and our lives. 

[00:03:35] And I don't think it's possible to read the gospel of Luke and the book of acts and sort of as a follower of Jesus, think, I think the holy Spirit's really important here. And I think the holy spirit must be really important to me. If the holy spirit was really important to the story to Jesus unto the early church. 

[00:03:52] So, so there is a, I think there is a powerful drive here from Dr. Lucas. He, as he moves us forward, 

[00:03:58] David: One of my favorite scholars on acts talks about how the holy spirit works as this kind of power for witnesses, some at some sort of level. And, and I think you see that even in Luke, I mean, there's a fun exercise for people to do and preachers, if you do this, you'll, you'll give yourself content for, for, for months in, in your, in your church. 

[00:04:22] But if you actually take Luke and acts and sort of lay them almost on top of each other and work them through, you actually see, and I think Luke is doing this intentionally. You see the holy spirit doing similar things through the story. You get holy spirit empowered at beginnings, you get holy spirit empowered speech. 

[00:04:41] You get holy spirit empowered miracles and you get holy spirit driving and accompanying into the mission of God. And so I think that you're seeing. Almost set up an agenda here. If I want you to know, right from the very start that, that when the holy spirit moves, things change in the, in the story of, in the story of their lives. 

[00:05:02] And also you do get, you and you're going to see it in just a minute here. The holy spirit seems to lead into some pretty impressive speeches, some pretty impressive, prophetic words. So I think, and the Gabriel's language to me is pretty heavily weighted. Isn't it? The holy spirit will come upon you and the power of the most high will overshadow you. 

[00:05:22] And therefore the child to be born will be holy and he will be called son of God. I mean, this is, this is huge, a huge language. Isn't it? 

[00:05:30] John: it totally is. And it, it, it leads into the. I think we're, I think we finished with this last time in the podcast. It's leading to where Dr. Luke really wants to corner us. He doesn't want us to go anywhere else with this that, in Zachariah and Elizabeth and the, in the previous story in the cm chapter, you have a natural union, which is just as miraculous because we're told that Elizabeth and Zachariah were both old and Elizabeth at the inference was she was barren even when she was able to have children. 

[00:06:04] So the fact that they have a child, the natural way is, is miraculous. It's an incredible miracle. It takes place, but there is a contrast to the Elizabeth and Zachariah experience to that of Mary, no man involved. And in fact, If you read the Matthew account it makes it really, really clear that once Joseph is made aware of what is going on by the various angelic visitations, he has, it says that he refused to have any sexual union with Mary until the baby was born. 

[00:06:37] So as if to make it absolutely clear, there is no doubt. If you're putting Luke story together with Matthew, they're both saying this is super natural and that you have a human egg fertilized by the power of the holy spirit. And you, you end up with the son of the most high God burst in human form, a unique person. 

[00:07:03] Comstat us. So the son of God always existed. He is the eternal word. He is the law Goss. He is the one who was, and is. But the person of Jesus, this, this human person that we meet is, has a beginning. He has a, an origin, and this is a miraculous idea that it should make our listener's head melt. If the incarnation doesn't make your bread and fry, then we're not thinking about it. 

[00:07:34] Right? So if you're, if you're feeling like, like my super computer brain is overheating, don't worry about it. It should. Because this is a concept and an idea that is way above our pay grid. And I don't even begin to understand the full glory of the incarnation. I just accepted by faith that the holy spirit comes on. 

[00:07:56] Mary on you end up with a huge a fusion of 100%. And the 100% God, which produces the person we call Jesus and a, and that is a unique and gloriously essential idea. This is essential to our salvation. This is essential to everything that Jesus will achieve on behalf of humanity and our for, I, I think that's why the gospel writers are so explicit David, about the supernatural activity of the holy spirit in this event. 

[00:08:27] So that no one can question it at least, if they want to believe, 

[00:08:31] David: I always love Zechariah's question in chapter one in verse 18. And where he, he basically asks the angel, I think on the behalf of all of us, he asked the angel like, like really you expect me to believe this. And the Angel's answer is yes. And, and I kind of like that, John, I I'm a terrible apologist for these sort of things. 

[00:08:57] Because I feel like I should offer more reason than logical arguments for why these things are the case. But I think the gospel writers have said this before. I think they corner us. They say, listen, you're going to read a story. And to read this story, it's going to ask you whether or not you're willing to accept that God. 

[00:09:14] Steps into history and does things. And, and if you're not willing to accept that, or you're not even open to the possibility that got me into Jack to his way into history, then these stories are going to be really hard work. If you try and read them and people have tried over the years to do that. And I just find myself thinking, let's just be honest with this here. 

[00:09:36] The stories asking you to believe in the supernatural. If you're not open to think about that, the story is going to cause you problems. And take that on the chin. You know what I mean? Now I would then say to you read the story anyway and just see if it maybe might not change your opinion on this stuff. 

[00:09:51] But don't, but don't try and rework the story to make it just a regular story with some ancient people trying to be a bit fancy. I just don't think you do anybody any favors by by doing that. 

[00:10:02] John: no, totally. And I think we should, we are encouraged in the biblical tax from Genesis one, one we've we've already discussed the echo of Genesis one, one, John, one, one, we are encouraged to embrace the impossible as a fundamental idea in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. However you understand, he did it. 

[00:10:21] That's a fundamental statement that you, you must accept. If you're going to understand the Hebrew scriptures, if you're going to understand who God is and why he would do such. John one, one in the beginning was the word and the word was with God. And the word was, God, John is saying, listen, none of this is going to make sense, unless you're prepared to accept a fundamentally supernatural idea that God became human flesh. 

[00:10:45] If you're prepared to do that, then this story rocks. If you're not prepared to do that, this story is going to be like a rock in your brain and it will absolutely, it will absolutely, a torment you, so it is David, there's a funder, over the years people have said, when do you expect me to believe that a Virgin conceived by God? 

[00:11:06] And I went, yeah, yeah, I do. It's the only way we can read this text. And to see him, whether I'm asking you to believe and after being in the grid of three days, that cm person rules from the Griffith. So, so, at the heart of the Christian faith, And biblical, biblical understanding are impossibilities out. 

[00:11:26] Of course it doesn't, doesn't the angel Gabriel say that when he's, when he's talking to, to Mary, he said, nothing is impossible with God. So, so there is that statement, doesn't it? Verse 37. Nothing is impossible with God is speaking in the context of both Elisabeth's conception through a natural means, but clearly helped miraculously. 

[00:11:48] I know Mary's conception, which is totally, totally supernatural because it's, there's no male human agency involved here. And, and so you get this and the angels go, yeah, nothing's impossible with God. Understand that. So we, we are, we are being forced to accept a supernatural idea, or of course we are being encouraged to reject a supernatural idea and on this, you pay your money and you're taking. 

[00:12:13] David: one of my favorite authors of the moment is Rich Villodas. If you haven't read his book, the deeply formed life, I thoroughly would recommend it. But if you don't, if you don't want to read his book, just go follow him on Instagram because his content is enough. Like, I don't know how he produces this search quality content on a, what seems to be daily basis. 

[00:12:35] But he, he posted this yesterday and I, I love this. He said, he said the creation story in Genesis was not intended to be a scientific treaties. Rather it establishes a feel logical truth that when God speaks a word, nothing can stop it. Advent reminds us that God's word, which is Jesus were spoken and darkness could not overcome him. 

[00:12:59] John: come on. 

[00:13:01] David: And I just think that that's kind of what we're talking about, right. It's it's the sense that at the end of the day, where the story begins and John does this to you, I'm just going to make a point here. The word that spoke the universe into existence has somehow become flesh and no lies in a manger. 

[00:13:20] And and so let's just stretch your faith brain as quick as we can, because this story is going to need it. 

[00:13:26] John: need it for sure. And and that beautiful language throughout the story with Mary, some of the most high, the, the illusions into the Tanakh entity, into the Hebrew scriptures, the old Testament text of L L Yon, the, the one who is above all and, and we are being asked to embrace this idea that the God, most high loved us so much that he wanted to engage with us and come to us and see of us. 

[00:13:56] And, one of my fear frit. Titles labels names of, of the Lord is a Manuel, with us as God. And my goodness, what an idea, what an idea that is that God became one of us so that he could be with us. And so that he could see us. I mean, seriously, it's, it's, it's a brain frazzling heart transforming idea that, that the Lord would essentially say to humanity and to every one of our listeners, I love you so much that I was prepared to do something in human history that had never, ever been done before on probably never really being conceived in the heart of a man before. 

[00:14:40] That's how much the Lord loves us. And that is essentially at the heart of the birth narrative. It is an incredible expression of how far God has prepared to go to redeem humanity. 

[00:14:50] David: The, the a piece, John, where it is highly unlikely in my life. I will ever produce a translation of the Bible, but you know, that opening Gabriel comes to Mary and says, greetings, graced one or favored one. And then he says, the Lord is with you. 

[00:15:05] And I always feel like, and I always want to do this when I preach it. I always feel like you need in brackets there. Like literally, because we say that don't, we, it's almost the Christian greeting or the Lord be with you alert. And and it's like, Gabriel's like, I'm going to say this, but I mean, it's slightly different than how other people, other people use it, but ultimately, that's quite fascinating. Isn't it? 

[00:15:24] Like this story is Emmanuel God with us. God is with Mary. And as a result, God is. With all of us. Now you've made an illusion just there show you not an illusion. You made a comment just there, John about the old Testament and it just, it's also interesting to note that this whole narrative is really. 

[00:15:45] Deeply rooted in all Testament illusion, isn't it? My, my version of the Bible that I use has down the side, whenever a text kind of, new Testament texts kind of alludes to something in the, in the old Testament, it gives me the references down the side feed you gotta, Hey, you probably wanna look at this text, that tax the next text, because this sort of new Testament texts sounds a bit like that old Testament text. 

[00:16:12] And what I noticed through the opening of Luke's gospel and in particular, when we cross over into Mary's response to Elizabeth in a moment like the, the, the, the kind of references and throats and illusions to the old Testament are dense at this stage of the text. I do, I think you've counted. 

[00:16:29] Haven't you Mary's response, which we'll read in just a moment, but Mary's response known as the Magnificant you, you actually, you said to me, just before we started recording that you kind of counted some of the illusions hadn't you? 

[00:16:41] John: yeah. Well, in terms of some of the things she, she says if, if you were picking up on Tanakh sort of allusions to it, I mean, depending on how you count, there could be as many, maybe more, but I certainly, I certainly saw at least 15 within her, this song that we're about to read together. 

[00:17:02] And within that I did a little bit of work on it in terms of tracking them dying. And of the 15 illusions that are think are there within her song. Two of them are from the. Seven of them are from the profits and six of them from the ratings. So for our listeners who understand how your Jew a Hebrew Bible is, is structured it. 

[00:17:26] And that's why you sometimes hear us refer to the Tanakh Torah, never even catch a theme, which is a Torah instruction. First five books of the what we call the old Testament as Christians, then the never him is the profits. And then the catcher Veem is the ratings. So I reckon there's at least 15 references that are alluded to in Mary song. 

[00:17:48] Two of them Torah, seven of them are the ratings and six of them, the profits. So, so this is pretty spectacular stuff. And it shows two things. I think David a general sense. I think we've got to take our hat off a little bit to. The only Gentile contributor to the new Testament on jet, he may be under Paul's jute leech, a brilliant, a brilliant Tanakh scholar himself schooled under chameleon that Luke may have learned very, very quickly that, that he has to learn to read backwards even as a Gentile believer and understand that, that this Jesus we're now talking about is all over to knock he's all over the old Testament scriptures. 

[00:18:33] And I think Paul would have helped Dr. Luke with that. And you've got to give Dr. Luke amazing credit that he is able to bring out just reams of nuance in the text either directly or indirectly. So obviously through Mary's song, it's indirect because he's simply recording her song. But in other cases, he's clear. 

[00:18:53] He's getting into this idea and he's making references for us over and over again and taken us back there. And I think as a general observation, that's really useful. I think, secondly, and we're about to lean into this. It shows, again, my position at Mary didn't just attract the theater of God because that fevers on merit. 

[00:19:14] But I think Mary has a deep spirituality and this. Contrast in disaccharide, disaccharides, prophecy, as we'll see later on, potentially this there's no, there's no direct reference to this being a prophetic utterance, but a response, a song of worship song of Prius. And it's calming then directly the heart of Mary, not just by prophetic function. 

[00:19:37] So if it's coming out of Mary's heart, then it's in there. And it means here's a, what we might think as a young teenage girl and our culture, a young woman and her culture making at least at least 15 allusions to the old Testament text and drawing it into one magnificent song. I mean, that is serious. 

[00:19:56] That is a serious idea. And when you set that up in contrast and comparison to Zachariah's prophecy, who he was, what he was, what he would have known, it's a remarkable, our remarkable song and one that's worthy of our consideration and. 

[00:20:15] David: And I think what's interesting just as we, as we can lean in, then to read this magnificent. 

[00:20:21] A little note that I find fascinating again, because of what you've just said about Luke is that, that in Matthew, for example, you get this representation of Jesus and things happen. And then Matthew pools texts from the old Testament and has this formula where he says, well, this is, this was to fulfill what was said in the profits. 

[00:20:39] What's interesting is what Luke gives us the insight into then is these new songs, these songs, although the elude to the old Testament, these are new entrances from these characters, setting up the story of Jesus. And whether you read Zachariah's prophecy Mary's song or similar. 

[00:20:59] John: Simeon 

[00:21:00] David: At Jesus, his dedication, they are, like every year when it gets to Christmas time, I find it difficult not to preach or anything other than those three, those three texts. 

[00:21:10] Right. They are just the Christmas story. So are you going to read the Magnificant four for us? Just know John from Luke 1 46. Yeah. 

[00:21:19] John: I would be honored to read this and if only I could read it half as well as Mary said it, so, or saying it even. And so, and Mary said verse 46, my soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God. My savior for he has been mindful of the humble estate of his service. From now on all generations will call me blessed for the mighty one has done great things for me. 

[00:21:54] Holy is his name. His mercy extends to those who fear him from generation to generation. He has performed mighty deeds with his arm. He has scattered those who are proud and are in most thoughts. He has brought down rulers from their Thrones, but it's lifted up the humble. He has filled the hungry with good things, but the scent, the rich away empty, he has helped his servant Israel remembering to be merciful to Abraham and his descendants forever, just as he promised our answers. 

[00:22:30] And then it says this Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then went home 

[00:22:36] David: Uh, I want to say something here, John, to help pastors. Okay. And and congregations and it's, it's almost irreverent, but Luke actually shows you something here, right? That every pastor that I know in the world struggles with on a weekly basis, right. After a phenomenal point of worship, it's okay to have an announcement. 

[00:23:02] Right. It's like, like every pastoral meeting I've ever been in it, but planning a church service. It's like, well, what should we do? We need to somehow tell people to make sure they come on Friday night to the meeting. And every pastor figures, how do I do that? After that song? And Luke shows us here, it's okay to just end something like that and go, oh yeah. 

[00:23:23] And then Mary stayed for three months and then she went home. 

[00:23:25] John: We went home. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't take away from the magnificence of what we've just heard it just and again, does, doesn't it shoe as again, David, I'm going, I love this, doesn't it sure yet the earthiness of the story of Jesus, it, she doesn't disappear off the some amazing place. 

[00:23:41] She goes home. She has to Shasta. And of course in many ways she has to face the music. She will go home three months, more pregnant than then she left. So, so she's gone home to fierce the music. She's gone home to face an uncertain world, a world where at least in theory, if certain extreme people get their hands on her, she could be stoned to death. 

[00:24:03] So this, this is a bit of a. And sushi has this incredible spiritual experience with Elizabeth Elizabeth gets filled with the spirit, the babies leap. I mean only all. And this is how, it's it's Mary story. Cause cause only, only women would, would remember the leaping of a baby, the kicking of a baby. 

[00:24:23] It's a beautiful, feminine insight into that. It's just gorgeous. And, and of course, Dan, she has this incredible song on, were taken to the high watermark and are, were taken up in the end of the heavens in worship and in oh so, so the, the, the and doesn't, it remained all of us that the kingdom of God and the magnificence of what Jesus wants to do in our lives always has to find resonance in the ordinary and the everyday and the routine and the Monday and in the boring that somehow, we, we have to find ourselves going back home, whatever home looks like and appropriating this incredible encounter with the Lord. 

[00:25:00] David: Well, can I push that further John into the area of supposition? So Mary stays with her about three months, right? So, we, like you say, she's going to go home more pregnant. There's definitely questions, Luke alludes to that later in the gospel there's questions as to Jesus Jesus's parental, where he comes from as to that. 

[00:25:19] So there is scandal around Jesus, his birth, but Mary does, because she goes home after three months, she's not gone to hide her pregnancy from her, but here's something that strikes me as interesting. Just you talked about the mundane and the routine. The story of, of Mary's encounter with Gabriel happens in the sixth month, the six months of what? 

[00:25:41] The six months of Elizabeth's pregnancy. Right? So the, and the angel clarifies this just in case you've missed this. The angel says to Mary, and even now your cousin, Elizabeth is in the sixth. And she was said to be barren and then the injured, the parts, and it says verse 39 of chapter one, Mary set out and went with haste to a GED in town in the hill country. 

[00:26:04] Right. I don't ever hear people ask very often. Why did Mary go to Elizabeth? Right. And my supposition here is that she went to help her, right? Because she stays with her right up until the time she's due to give birth. Now, when she gives birth, the family and the midwives to the village will come round and help with that. 

[00:26:24] So I think that the, Mary hears, oh, Elizabeth, six months pregnant and she rushes off to see her. And I don't hear, I just don't hear a lot of people reflect on why she makes this journey. But to me, the fact that she then stays around and, up to the point of. Elizabeth being ready to have the child suggest to me. 

[00:26:45] She actually goes just to help Elizabeth, an older lady in the late term of her pregnancy and does something to me, brilliant about Mary, with all of this hanging, what does Mary do as a result of this incredible, incredible announcement from God, or she goes to help her family member? I mean, I'm leaning a little bit into the, into the silence to make that point, but I think there's just enough of the text and what we know of venture and culture that Mary doesn't say well, aren't I fantastic. 

[00:27:15] I'll never see a hormone be pampered, but she just goes and helps. And like you say, it isn't a silence, but I think culturally that I think that's what's going on here. 

[00:27:25] John: Definitely. And also, it, it, it seems to be affirmed by Luke's own reference to Elizabeth, who says that she stared in seclusion for five months. And, and, we're not quite sure why, but, and maybe a F a feminine or a female view of this would help us a little bit, but could have been, could have been embarrassment. 

[00:27:43] There could have been, I don't quite know how to manage there. Some, an older woman, and I don't quite know what to do, but she's, she's in seclusion. And, and of course Mary comes in the sixth month. Th the other thing David, I think is undoubtedly there too, is that these two women know have something profound in common. And so you've got, one woman who gets pregnant naturally, but miraculously and another woman who gets. Totally supernaturally and miraculously. And you, you, you would have loved Dr. Luke and maybe he tried, maybe he tried to pry out of Mary. What did you and Alyssa fifth talk about for three months? 

[00:28:28] Come on, come on, give us a bit now. I think we've got some of that because I think the detail of Elizabeth's story and Zachariah's story will have undoubtedly come from Mary. And I think Elizabeth and Zechariah will have told Mary the story. And so Mary passes that on and the detail of that does to. But my goodness, two women together, both experiencing miraculous, supernatural conceptions. 

[00:28:55] What, what day have talked about my goodness? If there is a sort of a having flex section up and having, when we get there, I, that would be one of the wonder. Is there a little section on the three months of Mary and Elizabeth, I'd love to watch that and see what went on, but I, they must have had some profiling conversations supporting each other, helping each other. 

[00:29:17] And of course in the Lucan text, what's remarkable is that as soon as John is born Zachariah and Elizabeth completely disappeared from the text, there's not even a reference to their death or their passing. They just. And it's like, it's like this, this glorious explosive firework that explodes in the sky and it's gone and, and, and we just move on. 

[00:29:40] And of course the contrast is we don't move on from Mary, Mary becomes and remains an important part of the whole, of the story of Jesus. 

[00:29:48] David: These are short things we, we do need to look out for in the tax and, and I wonder as well about their conversation about it, because what strikes me about Mary's Zechariah, Simeon. Actually Jesus as well. You see this in Jesus he's life. 

[00:30:05] When it comes to the temptations, these are people who are, who are baked in scripture, right. It clearly it, and there's something, I think there's a discipleship thing for us here. That, that if you're, if you're like, I love that image of being baked in scripture. Like if it's baked into your heart, if you're going to learn it and learn it and learn it some more, when you encounter anything, guess what leaks out of you. 

[00:30:35] Right. And so Mary doesn't coat in the Magnificant, she doesn't quote the old Testament, like in one big chunk, but like you've said, the parallels throughout, this are all over the place that you listen, you read the Magnificat and you say to yourself, here's somebody that knew. The old Testament, here's somebody that has grown up. 

[00:31:00] And it's like, if you ever meet somebody who's like a Shakespeare scholar, they, they kind of sound a little like Shakespeare too, in the end. And here you have Mary, she kind of sounds like an old Testament prophet. Like if you were to take the Magnificant and just drop it into, into Isaiah and not tell anyone, and they were just reading one day, you almost wouldn't notice. 

[00:31:20] Right. 
 

[00:31:21] John: notice for sure. And does it say something I think about Mary's upbringing, does it say something about her attitude? So it might suggest, again, we have to be careful to argue from silence, but it might suggest that she had parents or father who wanted to expose her to the, to the law who wanted to expose her to, to knock on the Torah who didn't exclude her from that it, could it be that, that Mary, whether that was the case or not was so hungry for the scriptures and hungry for God that she, she made herself available to hear the law, being read, to hear the Torah being read, even though she may not have been allowed to pick it up herself and read it for herself, but something is going on where this young woman is saturate. 

[00:32:12] And the scriptures. And again, we we've alluded to this in our, I think our previous podcast, David were, that the contrast is Zachariah a tree and scholar, well, certainly a mantra and the descriptors, a priest, someone surrounded by the word of God and it's in its taught sense. And yet you compare, put, put these two prophecies are the Mary's song and Zachariah's prophecy side by. 

[00:32:38] And they, they, they really do Mary's words, hold, hold up. This is a serious piece. And, and and of course I don't, I don't know if you've noticed this David, but for me that I couldn't help here Mary song and hear the echo of Hannah's song in the old Testament then. And there are some illusions even to Mary song within harness tax then. 

[00:33:00] And if our, if our lists. Wanted to read Hannah's song in first Samuel two, it's just absolutely beautiful. And there is a gorgeous extra link right at the end of first Samuel chapter two, speaking of Samuel, her son, Hannah's son, the son that his birth miraculously in her situation it says, and the boy Samuel continued to grow in stature and in favor with the Lord and with man now, anyone who knows the story of Jesus from Luke will automatically here an unmissable echo, Luke chapter two verse 52 says of the boy Jesus, when he was leaving the temple and Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature and favor with God and with men. 

[00:33:45] I mean, it's, it's on miscible illusion to the, to, to the two ideas. And so there is a cemetery there in the song. Hannah and the song of Mary there's, a similarity, both women are have babies. Miraculously. The one is, is a context of barrenness. The other is of a sexual Virgin and both have sons that will ultimately grow in the Lord and literally impact and change their world. 

[00:34:13] Of course, the latter son being the son who will change everything. But, but again, I think if, if our, if our listeners are leaning into the old Testament, delusions, there is almost a direct parallel between the song of Mary and the experience of Hannah. And even that little reference to the both boys growing. 

[00:34:37] It's just a really, whoa, that, that looks like the same thing. Out of course it isn't, but, but the illusion is strongly there. 

[00:34:44] David: And isn't that good? It's just so exciting. The giant. And because I, I mean, I agree with you and even like in the Bible societies, cross-referencing that they give you alongside the Greek text, as soon as you get to Luke 1 46, that's the first text they point out, Hey, you want to go look at first Samuel chapter two verses one to 10. 

[00:35:03] I love the fact John, that Mary is steeped in scripture, but the biggest illusion that she brings out is another female hero of the text. Like, I love this idea, ideas. Mary is this little feminist who is who's going when I get my chance, I'm going to riff on one of, one of her heroes in that sense. I think it, I think it's phenomenal and, and, and, and the patterns are really interesting, in, in, in one Samuel, my heart rejoices in the Lord. 

[00:35:31] Right. You've got that. But then, but then listen, listen to this here in verse seven. Well actually verse six is even really fascinating. If this is in Mary's mind, the verse six, the Lord brings death and makes a life. He brings down to the grave and raises up the Lord sends poverty and wealth. He humbles and he exalts, he raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the Ash heap. 

[00:35:57] He seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. And and then he goes on to talk about, it's not by strength. She says that one prevails because those who oppose the Lord will be, will be broken. 

[00:36:11] John: And again, look, look at it just at the very next little bit. The most high will thunder from heaven. So there's that most high reference again, El El Yon, the Lord will judge the ends of the earth. He will give strength to his keen and exalt the horn of his anointed. And then, and then look at our little look at our little verse 11 referenced there. 

[00:36:31] Then Elkanah went home. But the boy ministered before the Lord under Eli it's it's that sort 

[00:36:38] David: At the end of even got a line of going home. 

[00:36:41] John: so, so Mary SIGs or Saul goes home, Hannah sings her song. They go home and leave the boy Samuel in the presence of the Lord at, at the, at the shrine. Isn't that beautiful? 

[00:36:52] David: it's phenomenal. Luke is definitely doing something 

[00:36:54] there. Isn't  

[00:36:55] John: definitely doing so well. 

[00:36:57] I, I, and it's whether it's whether we, we even give Luke full credit or Luke is making sure everybody knows Mary's doing something here, men shouldn't, do you know what I mean? It's like he is saying, this is not just some sort of young girl who happens to be a Virgin. He's saying this is a serious woman. 

[00:37:16] She is a serious follower of add-on a, she loves the most. She has made herself the Lord's servant RND and approve it, listen to her song. And and, and of course it may have been someone like Paul who puts Luke onto it onto Hannah, but because Luke may not know that, but certainly Mary knows that because the story of Samuel is one of the most formative in the development of the history of Israel in terms of his grit, judgeship, and and what an incredible leader in many ways he became for the nation. 

[00:37:53] So it's a, it's a, it's an iconic song and iconic story. And Mary links them together. And Luke makes sure he puts it in the text so that we understand just high powerful Mary is a lot. I love that in terms of her biblical understanding. 

[00:38:10] David: There's a song there. It's a kind of new Christmas song is written by mark Lowry in 1984. Pentatonix, meet it quite a bit more popular in recent years. I don't know if you know the song, Mary did, and whenever I listened to that song generally listened to at Christmas time and generally at Christmas, at some point I'm prepared, pairing a sermon a sermon on on the Magnificant. 

[00:38:32] And whenever I listened to that song, I always find myself going, ah, yes, 

[00:38:37] John: yes, she did. 

[00:38:42] David: because the song kind of takes this sort of feel of, oh, Mary was just this sort of meek, meek and mild maiden mother who kind of had this sprung upon her. And you read the Magnificant and you do a little bit of the work and what she's, what she's riffing on and channeling line. And you think, goodness, did she know? 

[00:39:00] And she was all about it. 

[00:39:04] John: Incredible. And it, it is it's, it's, it's absolutely beautiful. And, and I do love elements of her song, which echo Hannah, she says you've been meaningful of the humble estate of his servant. I mean, I just love this from, from now on generations will call me blessed and you don't read arrogance in that cause cause you've get you, you've got this idea of generations will call me blessed, having just stared at the humble state of of, of a servant, so she understands that this is this grace of God. That's pecking her up and elevating her in a way that she could never self elevate for the mighty one has done great things for me and endeavored. I love that. I love the juxtaposition. And the next little section he has performed mighty deeds. He has scattered the Pro-D brought down rulers here's Hannah's echo again, lifted up the humble filled the hungry sent the way to rich. 

[00:40:01] I, I it's almost like, could it be, could it be that Dr. Luke himself becomes influenced by, by Mary's understanding of how the Lord reverses status, and this becomes a formative idea in the way he ships his own gospel. And we've talked about the fact that John's prologue becomes a sort of key to reading the gospel. 

[00:40:29] And in many ways, these opening songs of Mary Zachariah and Semyon who's, who's the first Jewish voice in the tax to put Gentiles in front of Jews in terms of the salvation. They almost, it's almost like if you read the gospel of Luke through the lens of these three songs, you get a little bit of a key on how to read the book. 

[00:40:54] Is it, is that an overstretch David or do you think that's there? 

[00:40:58] David: I, I am a hundred percent with you. Like this to me is programmatic. I think this is, this is a hundred percent programmatic. You need to understand that you're going to see things here. The rich young ruler. Uh I'm I'm going to tell you stories from Jesus's life that, that, the actually, he has filled the hungry with good things and sent the rich away empty. 

[00:41:24] This is, yeah, I don't think you can in any way really. Any of this and not see that he's giving you the keys here to understand what you're about to read, the next, the next, however many chapters, from here on, in are going to make more sense if you like Mary internalize this stuff, because even all of the language you've talked about, before about status reversal, I mean, that is what's going on here. 

[00:41:48] He has looked with favor on, on the humble one. And at the result of that is that all generations will call them, blessed and, and it's, it's w w when we get to the sermon on the plane in Luke sermon on the Mount, from Matthew, the sermon on the plane, Jesus then gives you discipleship tips on how to live this sort of stuff out. 

[00:42:08] And. And, and, so you're getting this constant. And again, that contrast we talked about in the last episode, in the time of Caesar Augustus, during the reign of Tiberius, these big power shows are being there, but there's this subtle revolutionary story ticking on underneath a, of a God who turns things upside down and, and which is what Hannah was singing about. 

[00:42:30] It's what Isaiah promised and it's what Malakai, Malakai three Malakai three offers us a God who is coming, make way because he's coming and he's going to set things right. And how's he going to set things right. Is going to raise up the little valleys, but he's also going to bring down the high mountains and there's a correcting. 

[00:42:52] And so it's almost as if you and the Magnificant functions by Luke to say, okay, buckle up your seatbelt. We're heading for some Rocky territory ahead. And you see it with Jesus, his first sermon in the temple Luke, Luke chapter four, don't you, this, this sense that, that the texts that are being chosen are deeply important to understanding this. 

[00:43:12] John: It's so true. It's so true. It's so magnificent. And I, when you, when you tap into her story, And your topic into her song. You, as we've tried to do, we, we've tried to celebrate Mary in these two podcasts together and hope we've done a good job in doing that, but I I'm drawn back to Elizabeth's words. 

[00:43:31] Blessed is she who has believed what the Lord has said to her for. It will be accomplished. And, and I, I just, I love that from Elizabeth. Here's Elizabeth saying, you are blessed because you have believed and because you've believed you will see this thing accomplished and, and what will be accomplished in you, Mary, and through you will not only be for you, but will enrich the nations of the world. 

[00:44:01] And men and women, boys and girls will have lives transformed forever because a young woman said, I'm the Lord servant. It to me, as you have said, and I would just encourage our listeners, listen, this Christmas, don't settle for the Christmas card version of Mary dive into this magnificent woman celebrate her properly lift her up as one of the greatest, if not the greatest woman who ever lived in human history, because she was not just kind of say this carefully, she was not just a carrier of a baby, but she was the carrier of the word of the Lord. 

[00:44:43] And I think that's what we see in both her story on her song. 

[00:44:50] David: And John, one just final little point of nuances. We land out this episode just towards the end of the Magnificant. And I think to me, this is a beautiful thing to remember at Christmas time the translations awkward to express this well. So, but in verse 54, he has helped his servant Israel in remembrance of his mercy. 

[00:45:10] The word remembrance there is, is an infinitive in Greek, right. And it's used to express result. Right? So just like, just think about this is whatever you tell of the Christmas story as Mary gets, to this point, what's the result of all of this is that God's mercy is not forgotten. This, this is all about the God moving towards us. 

[00:45:34] This is the God coming towards us. And I, I, I love that in advent. I love that as we come towards Christmas, the, in a world that's obsessed with, how do we get to God? The Christmas story finds, finds a young girl. In the middle of nowhere, Israel and says, Hey God is with us. He is coming towards us. He has not forgotten us. 

[00:45:58] And he is coming with mercy. And and I think of that. I think of that image from Isaiah the Lord rises up, and, and Isaiah uses the language of a, of a general Rosing his troops for war. He rises up to show us mercy. And, and I think that whole kind of underpinning of this story is the beauty of why we tell this every single Christmas, isn't it. 

[00:46:23] John: magnificent, magnificent bless you, man. So good.