Everything Second to Jesus | Disruptive Presence 9

In which John and David consider how Jesus is at the centre of everything in Peter's Acts 2 sermon. Peter's use of the Old Testament is interesting and illuminating, not just what he quotes, but how he uses it. Jesus is his lens to everything.

Episode 62 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 9

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Transcript

 Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] John: Hey, so David, we are still in Peter sermon. I mean, this is his sermon itself is relatively short, but our conversation around his sermon is turning into like a marathon. So  

[00:01:00] David: If you ever watch a film that Peter Jackson, you know, the Lord of the rings director, it always seems to just get longer and 

[00:01:07] John: A date, a date, but, but doesn't it show you that at one level we can read, listen to the sermon of Peter and sort of just get it. So there's a level on the surface that you go. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I hear what he's saying. There's a simplicity to that sermon that some level, even if you don't know any of the background stuff that we were talking. 

[00:01:29] It just works. But my goodness, if we're prepared to stop a little bit at lean in and maybe see some of the gorgeous texture of this sermon and how, how clever it is and how brilliant it is. And last time we reflected. On his first quote from the TaNaK, which was the, the quote from Joel and my goodness. 

[00:01:49] Wasn't that just gorgeous in terms of that whole restorative conversation. And this is that and what that sort of means to us. So, so we're gonna try in this podcast and look at the other TaNaK references that we're gonna try and land those.  

[00:02:05] David: I love the use of try 

[00:02:07] John: Try. Yes. I'm I'm, I'm not making any promises to anybody about anything  

[00:02:12] So shall we have a, a little lean into this because Peter quotes jewel that's his main prophetic quote, and then he quotes the Psalms. But interestingly, isn't it. I, I, I noticed in the reading of, of Peter Seban, he refers to David, not only is king. 

[00:02:29] David: Mm-hmm 

[00:02:29] John: a patriarch and as a prophet. So it's interesting that he is interpreting sections of the Psalms, which we, which would in a Jewish Bible, Hebrew Bible sit comfortably in the writings. And yet he's seeing these Psalms as dynamically prophetic, and he even labels Peter David, as. Profit. So that's, that's a, it seems to be, that's a new introduction to, is an understanding, at least, at least from this new church community, Jesus has alluded to that perhaps, but explicitly David calls David, a prophet. 

[00:03:06] So, so shall we have a little look at those, references and see what we can dig? 

[00:03:11] David: AB. Absolutely. And, and I think I, I mean, this is the sort of when you're doing a little work from memory, so, but. I think this is quite unique to Luke. Like David is clearly a huge character in scripture, but the way that Luke introduces us to this, this, this connection of, of, of David and Jesus is, is something that he has really. 

[00:03:36] Interestingly pushed very heavily. Cause I know Matthew makes those illusion to clearly he does those things, but Luke, I think really takes this idea and, and, and wants us to see it ensures that we see all the right quotes relating to that. So, so you, this idea of, of Jesus as, as, as the, as the real true God of Israel and leader of Israel, cuz I can't help but think about. 

[00:04:04] All of the critique of David that's present in scripture. He is this beloved king, but there's a lot of critique of David. And then even deeper than that, you've even got Samuel's critique of kingship. Right. And so this narrative, and I think it's always worth reminding us of that. 

[00:04:19] Isn't it? The narrative is that God never wanted a king for Israel because he was Israel's king. And so all Kings, even the great king David. Are problematic. That's the Bible's commentary on them. Even the great king David is problematic because he is not God. So this notion, I think for Luke to say the true king of Israel is back as. 

[00:04:42] With a connection to David, but also being God himself, I think is, is beautiful symmetry. In terms of, again, we alluded to it in the Joel conversation, the Shalom, the wholeness, the bringing back together of the brokenness and a brokenness. It doesn't often get talked about is Israel's breaking from God as their king. 

[00:05:02] We, we we'll, we'll actually have a human king and we'll put God in a temple. And that was a, is got God breaking out of the temple and Jesus being the king. I, we've not even read the text yet, but I feel like there's a lot of depth in that. Isn't 

[00:05:16] John: Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure. It's massive. It's a massive idea. And I think you've summarized that beautifully. I think they are the ongoing redemptive tensions. I, I, I, I think we see God redeeming two ideas in Jesus that weren't originally his idea. 

[00:05:32] David: Mm-hmm 

[00:05:32] John: kingship was not, I don't think, I think if you read the text carefully, I don't think Kaship was God's idea. 

[00:05:37] You're absolutely right. But yet he redeems it in that Jesus is the ultimate son of David who takes the throne as it were and becomes the king. And of course the temple, Jesus of course becomes the ultimate fulfillment of the temple and relocates the temple away from a place and to a people. But of course, primary. 

[00:05:58] Primarily rooted in him himself. So, so you get these, these gorgeous ideas, the two ideas that maybe the Lord really didn't initiate, but yet he blesses and then because they go wrong over the passage of time, he redeems. And, and how does he redeem them in, in Christ? Jesus, it's just brilliant. It, I mean, it really is stunning. 

[00:06:17] And as you say if, if we keep that in the back of our mind, as we're leaning into these lovely quotes in thesal, it, it does help that, that conversation. 

[00:06:26] David: Shall I do you want me to read this bit of acts 

[00:06:28] John: Go for it. Go for it, please. 

[00:06:30] David: I'm gonna read from verse 24, not because it's part of the Psalm, but just because we should read this stuff regularly, he says chapter two, verse 24, but God raised him up having freed him from death because it was impossible for him to be held in its power. 

[00:06:47] sort of great, great line. For David says concerning. I saw the Lord always before me for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken. Therefore, my heart was glad and my tongue rejoiced, moreover, my flesh will live in hope for you will not abandon my soul to Hayes or let your holy one experience corruption you have made known to me the ways of life you will make me full of gladness with your presence. 

[00:07:19] Peter continues, fellow Israelites. I may say to you in confidently of our ancestor, David, that he both died and was buried in his tumors with us to this day, since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne for seeing this David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah saying he was not abandoned to Hayes, nor did his flesh experience corruption. 

[00:07:50] And we just hold that there and we can kind of jump back and forward in between them. But I, I think it's helpful just to hear Peter's kind of intro and exit from the, from that quote isn't. 

[00:07:59] John: Yeah, yeah, totally is totally is. And, and isn't it interesting. There's a sense in which David, to contrast our last little conversation on jewel where Peter quotes the old Testament and simply says, this is that. And doesn't seem to explain any part of that prophecy, just like litera goes, okay, this is that. 

[00:08:22] And just accept it. Whereas when he's quoting the Sams, there seems to be a much more careful quoting of those sums and, and an explanation here, a bit more. A bit more understanding going on in the context of the text and, and and explaining that do you think that's fair in terms of, he seems to be using old Testament, prophetic words in a, an interpret in a slightly different way. 

[00:08:50] David: And I think you even see when, Peter quotes this Psalm and, and, and actually, I mean, his explanation is quite cutting. If you, if you look at it, it, it reminds me of Jesus's. Conversation with the crowd in John chapter six, when Jesus says, yeah, yes, the patriarchs ed, ate bread in the desert, but then they all died. 

[00:09:12] Here, bear in mind, he's led into this Psalm with, it was impossible for Jesus to be held, by the power of death, he then says, Or David died and he was buried and, and almost if you'll forgive me and there's his tomb over there, so we know he is dead. So you get this, this superseding of David with Jesus. 

[00:09:32] And I think it seems to me that Peter wants to make sure, I'm going after the George Washington or Abraham Lincoln of our history here with an suggestion that this guy that was killed. Is a replacement of them and, and that's, I think he needs to make sure that that's understood. I think that based on what we said in the last episode that this is that for Joel, I think Peter obviously thinks, well, this text, it's actually self explanatory. 

[00:10:00] This one, it feels like he, he needs to make sure that what we're doing, Jesus is not simply a descendant of David. Actually. He's doing something that, that's how I kind of lean into that. 

[00:10:12] John: Yes, absolutely. And, and I think, I, it seems to me, David, that he's using this, not simply to affirm the resurrection, but to affirm the messiahship of Jesus,  

[00:10:26] David: Mm.  
 

[00:10:26] John: isn't it? Because, and there's a sense in which. Whether those Pilgrim that, the pilgrims that Chava ought want to believe that Jesus has risen from the dead or not. 

[00:10:35] At this stage, there is a, there's a body of opinion out there. There's an eyewitness group that sort of is out there. That said, actually, we, we do believe Jesus has risen from there, cuz we've seen him. 

[00:10:46] David: Yes. 
 

[00:10:47] John: So Peter, isn't using Sam 16 to sort of say, okay let, let me give you the theological basis for the resurrection. 

[00:10:55] Although he clearly makes the point, David is dead, his tomb's over there, but Jesus is alive, but he seems to be using that Sam in the context of resurrection. To really emphasize. And therefore this establishes the idea that Jesus is the Messiah that, that, that he's, he's using Samal 16 as a messianic interpretation, not just as a connector to the resurrection. 

[00:11:19] When he, when he speaks of that and, and you get this sort of lovely idea within that, that Allo, he hasn't allowed the holy one to see this corruption, it, it begins by saying I saw the Lord always before me, because he's up my right hand and I will not be shaken. So you, so you get this sort of sense of. 

[00:11:40] The Lordship, the messiahship the preeminence of Jesus over David, not just the fact that Jesus has risen from the dead and, and Sam 16 seems to be being used in that way. It is. Is that a fair comment? Do you think in terms of how he's using that Sam? 

[00:11:57] David: Well, I think actually, and, and, and listen, this is where one of my favorite phrases that you have used and taught me, I don't know if intentionally or not, but I've stolen it from you over the years is don't hear what I'm not saying here. but but actually the proof of what you're saying is in the way he, he double quotes at verse 27 of acts chapter two. 

[00:12:17] So in verse 27 of acts, chapter two, he quotes. Psalm 16 he says for you will not abandon my soul to hay or let your holy one experience. Corruption, right. That that's a direct quote from the Greek text of. Of the old Testament, which is what Peter is clearly using. And we know that actually to go back to if we go back to Joel two, he, we know he's, you can compare, he's definitely quoting 

[00:12:42] John: SEP. 
 

[00:12:43] David: the Greek text there. 

[00:12:43] Yeah. The subsequent, right. So what's interesting. Then when he comes back in verse 31, he says for seeing this David spoke with the resurrection of the Messiah saying. . And now he REOs that that verse that verse 10 of Psalm 16, again, but this time he doesn't quote it directly, he paraphrases it and notice that he drops out the the. 

[00:13:06] Personal language. Right? So, because in thes it's David saying he will not let me be abandoned to hay. Now Peter says, oh no, this is about the Messiah. And he paraphrases it to make his point. He was not abandoned to, to, to Hayes nor his flesh experience corruption. So. It's quite an interesting, it's very subtle and you almost don't see it. 

[00:13:27] If you're too quick, that the second time round, he actually puts it as a quote, not as a quote from scripture, which I think gives us direct insight into exactly what. Peter is doing with this text is saying this text that David was speaking about himself, actually prophetically, even unknown to David, which I, I think the old Testament's always open to the fact that the prophet is not always fully aware of the impact of the prophecy. 

[00:13:53] Peter now takes that and says here's where that text is actually applying to. So I think, I mean, I think that defends your point that you're making, again on another level, if that makes. 

[00:14:03] John: Yes, absolutely. And, and again, doesn't Peter sort of emphasize that by referring to David as a prophet. So, 

[00:14:10] so how you know, and again, aren't, we help sometimes we we've, we've done this before, where sometimes the way the new Testament writers and thinkers interpret a text. Helps us to read that text differently. 

[00:14:26] So if you were reading Sam 16 in its ordinary context, your, your conclusion of that might not incorporate the day of Pentecost and, and also the sort of. The connection to the resurrection of Jesus, but it's, it's Peter probably helped by Jesus in those 40 days of download between resurrection and Ascension. 

[00:14:52] I, I would be shocked if Jesus hasn't guided them through some of these amazing passages. And so now Peter. Would've seen David as a king before, but now he's seen him as a. He's seen, he's seen these, this language as prophetic language pointing forward to the Messiah. So it's a, it's a wonderful way of seeing that and that might lend. 

[00:15:14] Weigh it into how we read other writings of David and give his confidence around understanding that though David May have had certain contexts in mind, there may be prophetic understanding in how we read other writings of David in, in regard to the Messiah. And, and of course he does quote another Psalm of David in the context of that. 

[00:15:36] David: I, I, I don't disagree with anything you're saying, so what I'm about to say is not me contradicting anything 

[00:15:41] John: No, no, you go. 

[00:15:41] David: I also like to think maybe it's cuz I, I like the mystical nature of how God actually works and we want to, so I agree with you. I think Jesus is clearly gonna be teaching the disciples between his resurrection and Ascension, but it also comes to mind, John 14, 26, the holy spirit who my father will send in my name. 

[00:16:01] We'll teach you all things and remind you. Of everything that I have said to you. So like, and please listeners, this is not John and I having a fight. I, I think I, I totally think that Jesus is clearly doing some teaching work in that space between, but I also love the potential notion if we listen to John's testimony for a moment that one of the things, the holy spirit does is remind us of stuff that Jesus has said. 

[00:16:23] So there's a part of me kinda, and I'm just saying this kind of, goofily, but I think there's a serious point in it that also, perhaps this sermon. Is Peter having this moment of realizing, oh, Jesus talked to it, this about this for three years. and now it's all of a sudden made sense. The holy Spirit's brought it all back to him. 

[00:16:42] So you, you know what I'm saying? I'm not 

[00:16:45] John: Oh,  
 

[00:16:45] totally.  

[00:16:45] David: here, but I feel like there's something. Just worth in the imaginative thinking, are we actually seeing the holy spirit doing exactly what Jesus said the holy spirit 

[00:16:54] John: Of course,  

[00:16:55] David: um, that, the sermons where the disciples just stared blankly at Jesus. 

[00:16:59] And we're like, I have no idea what you're talking about here.  

[00:17:01] John: absolutely. No, no, no. I would totally agree with that. Absolutely. And, and that sense of direct. Personal revelation from the holy spirit. We, we have to believe that that's all part of the equation within that. And, and, and Peter by the power of the spirit is reminded of these wonderful words of Jesus. 

[00:17:21] However, they came to him and this adopt has now powerfully connected for him. So, so he's seen David as a prophet and these words as prophetic. So, incredibly powerful, really? Absolutely. 

[00:17:33] David: , I, I'm working my way through an introductory book about Carl Bart's church. Dogmatics at the minute. Called church dogmatics for everyone. And he has this, this beautiful phrase, which came to me just as you were saying that just there and he, he basically says that that what, what God is doing in the world. 

[00:17:50] Revealing himself to us. Who is being revealed is God the what of that revelation is Jesus. So Jesus is the full revelation of. Of God. And and which is, I mean, that's Hebrews that's, we see, that's not a, it's not a controversial point when you think about it, but Bart would make the point to remind us that that Jesus has been revealed to us. 

[00:18:11] So this is what we know of. God is Jesus. He is the, he is the perfect revelation, but then, so, so, so the, the, who is God, the father, the, the, what is, is God God, the son? And then he says this, which I love the, how is the holy spirit. Right? And so, so those of us in a modern period who have never met Jesus in the flesh, how can we pertain to know God? 

[00:18:34] And well, we do it by the holy spirit that the holy spirit comes to us and reveals to us that the man Jesus was in fact. The true revelation of God, and so there's this beautiful Trinitarian harmony that, that I I'm suggesting is going on exactly here, that, that Peter is coming along. 

[00:18:53] And he's basically saying that the spirit is now revealing to them. Showing them piecing all the pieces. So I, so I love this idea of, of the spirit as the Trinitarian part of God, that helps us with the, how, you know, how am I gonna make sense of any of this? Well, that's what the Spirit's doing. And Peter sermon, I would say is a, NuMat logically a spiritual spirit inspired explaining of how God's doing this to us. 

[00:19:19] John: Yes, absolutely. It totally is. It totally is. And, and again, it's, it's doesn't it show you that there's more going on here. So again, it, a one simple reading it's like, it's like Peter originally stands up to sort of defend. What is happening or this is that, but then it, it moves from an explanation of the outpouring of the spirit. 

[00:19:43] And again, locating the work and power of the spirit to the person of Jesus. And this is all about ultimately getting, getting Jesus and an understanding that Jesus is God's Messiah. He has. Died. He has been raised from the dead and then this gorgeous climactic quote within which, which really brings Peter to his appeal. 

[00:20:05] Doesn't it? He, he quotes Psalm 110 on the back of, he says beautifully there verse 32, God raised this Jesus to life. And we are all witnesses of it. So that's that eyewitness account exalted to the right hand of God. I love that little illusion there. If you know the ex text of Steven who, while, while being executed, sees Jesus standing at the right hand of the father, the beautiful illusion there. 

[00:20:31] And it says he is re received from the father, the promised holy spirit and has poured out what you and I see in here. So there's a beautiful top and tailing of this. He starts with Joel, this is that. And then he explains, oh, but this that you're seeing is actually as a result of Jesus dying, rising from the dead being exalted, receiving the promise from the father and now pouring that promise out on us. 

[00:20:59] So even this dynamic hematological experience. Is completely wrapped up in the person of Jesus that it, Peter is suggesting exes because of the exalted authority of Jesus, having raised from the dead and exalted to the right hand of the father that we are now experiencing this beautiful experience. So even the work of the spirit, we cannot divorce the work of the spirit from the person of Jesus. 

[00:21:24] They are, they are inextricably. And then he quotes this beautiful quote from Psalm hundred and 10 that Jesus, of course, himself has already quoted and baffled his opponents with earlier on in the gospels. The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a food stool for your fate. 

[00:21:42] And then of course, Peter goes, therefore, therefore, and, and I love this. Let all Israel be assured of this. 

[00:21:50] David: Mm-hmm 

[00:21:50] John: God has made Jesus whom you crucified both Lord. Messiah. So in that final quote, there's, there's, it's almost the authority of Messiah that has been reaffirmed there, David, and it's on the basis of that, that Peter makes as appealed to his Jewish audience. 

[00:22:07] David: mm-hmm 

[00:22:08] John: Is, is that fair? Is a, is a summary. 

[00:22:10] David: I love it. And I was even just thinking I was just flicking back and forward but it just, as I read that, it just struck me for a moment. Therefore let let all the house of Israel know, and I just immediately was drawn back to the beginning of chapter two, where, where Peter makes the point that they were all together in one place. 

[00:22:28] And suddenly from heaven, there came a sound like a rush of a violent wind and it filled the whole. Now the word is whole there. Not all, but the whole house, but it just, I just thought isn't interesting that we've got the, the spirit filling the whole house and now Peter's. Let all the house know that that God is doing this. I it's, it, it just, it distracted me for a moment there. I thought that's kind of, that was kind of neat, but, but yes, no, I, I, I, I completely agree with you on, on what's on what's happening on what's happening there. And I think, I think it's a beautiful way to make sense of why Peter is bouncing through the text that he is  

[00:23:04] John: Hmm. Yeah. Be because the, this idea that it's the, the, the experience of the spirit is happening because Jesus has risen. Jesus is exalted and Jesus therefore has authority as Messiah to send this holy spirit to also, I, I love the way he's connecting the neological reality to this Christological. 

[00:23:33] Reality. And that's all part of an eschatological reality. Sorry. So, so it's all a bit of, so you get this Jesus understanding that is inextricably linked to this outpouring of the spirit, which has this this sort of kingdom impact of, of creating a community. That is built on the revelation of Jesus' Messiah and empowered by the spirit that that Messiah has had the authority to send. 

[00:24:01] David: Yes. 
 

[00:24:02] John: And, and I think that is a real, I think, I think he's not just, he's not just grabbing random text that sort of, oh, well, yeah, that sort of leans in, but it seems that he's establishing the authority of the mess. Through the words of David he's establishing the credibility of the Messiah. He's establishing Jesus once. 

[00:24:20] And for all, not only is the one who died in rose, but now he's the one sending this spirit to us as part of his ongoing mandate at eschatological. If you like in the kingdom of God to, to save and change the world. And, and that all links together so beautifully with the earlier parts of action and even some of the gospel. 

[00:24:38] David: So see, so what's happening here, John is you you're forcing me back into more Carl Bart, right? So but, but he says he is this cause I, and he's doing interpretive work for us here, which I think is important. Bart says this. The proper focus in theology stays true to God's self revealing. The whole history of God has been and continues as an invent, which encounters humans. 

[00:25:05] So God, so he's saying basically, God is God is coming towards us and he's revealing himself in that process. Right. So then he says this and, and I love this, John, and it's such a warning to me as an individual. To me as a pastor. And I think to all churches, he says, Bart says this, , and I think this is what Peter's doing here, which is why I bring up just now the crucial task for humanity has been to determine whether to have a religion based in revelation. 

[00:25:32] So essentially, God reveals something to us and we then build our structures and practices off the back of that. Or we could choose, he says a revelation of religion, which is basically where we humans decide to structure a religion and try and fit God into it. He says one attends to God's self giving as in God's grace and the other forms of pious living. 

[00:25:53] Right. So, so we've got one which basically makes us feel really holy and one, which. Makes us reliant on God's grace. And he says this, the key methodological commitment for proper theology is to keep revelation prior to religion and never to reverse the order. 

[00:26:12] John: Wow.  
 

[00:26:13] David: And, and I think that actually works right now. 

[00:26:15] I think that's Bart reflecting theologically and something. I think Peter is doing here. God has revealed himself to us in Christ and, and therefore we're gonna make sure that everything else comes second to that. Jesus is Lord first and whatever we do must be based on that revelation. 

[00:26:33] And I think that's what Peter's doing here is even now trying to reread the old Testament to say, Nope, this also is a revelation of Jesus. I might suggest not as a spoiler for future episodes and at the pace we're going, it's gonna be months. So people have forgotten it by the time we get there anyway. 

[00:26:47] But, but I would suggest that what you see happening in the, in a lot of acts, and I think it's fascinating that Luke doesn't hide this from us is you see a lot of acts trying to reverse that order. 

[00:27:00] John: Yes. 
 

[00:27:00] David: Well, we don't like what these, these disciples are doing. How do we, how do we stop that happening? Oh, even the church itself sometimes going, oh, I'm not sure if the holy spirit wants to go over there. 

[00:27:09] And I think what I like about Bart's interpretation of scripture in this is that scripture's calling us always to keep the revelation of the holy spirit primary, that he is going to guide and shape things and, and that's, that's actually. Proper theology. And even in our Pentecostal history, there's been a temptation sometimes to go well, let's develop our theology and see if the revelation of God in the holy spirit fits to that. 

[00:27:35] What we see in acts is everything will be subservient to the revelation of Jesus. The resurrected in crucified one. And I, I, I think methodologically for us as Christians, Peter is showing us something. Even it's profound in what he says, but it's profound in what he does for us  

[00:27:53] John: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And, and I think, that is a gorgeous idea in which to land this podcast that actually. 

[00:28:01] David: Mm 
 

[00:28:02] John: Though Peter seems to be explaining the holy spirit. He is ultimately absolutely establishing the, the, the person of Jesus and the work of Jesus through the spirit. 

[00:28:16] and the continuation of the work of Jesus through the spirit, to this new ECLA this new community. And, and if we will grasp that, then that I think that gives us the opportunity to go forward with the Jesus centered and spirit empowered community to touch and reach our world. So, so beautiful. Absolutely. 

[00:28:38] David: And of course the response to a sermon like this. Is what should we do? and, and John and I are not gonna promise. We're gonna be able to answer that question in one podcast, but, but come back next time where we at least try 

[00:28:55] John: we will. We will, we'll have a go at that. Absolutely bless you all.