What Should We Do? | Disruptive Presence 10

In which John and David consider the response to a sermon. Peter's sermon does a variety of things, but a good sermon should also include something that isn't from the preacher - the response. In Acts 2, Peter's sermon gets the response we should always ask.

Episode 63 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 10

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Transcript

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[00:00:00] David: So, John, this is part six of chapter two. that we're getting into now. So, there's a lot in this chapter. Isn't there. 

[00:00:59] John: There's a lot in this and, and our, our listeners may be getting a bit of an inkling of what we're like as preachers. So they're thinking, oh no, those are, those are the guys. You just keep going. But yeah, it's we're, we're very excited by the text and, and you just peel away these layers and they're just lovely really, and, and, and worth taking our time on.  

[00:01:17] David: There is something about slowing down and spending time in the text and even something about just continuing to revisit the same text and seeing them, in different lights. 

[00:01:26] I mean, John, you would say the same as, as me. In the process of doing this work on text that are quite familiar to us. We are seeing new things just in the process of our conversations. So it's beautiful little insight into, why scriptures not a one and done reading project. 

[00:01:44] John: Absolutely. And, and also I'm sure you find is at local church. When I get the opportunity in my ministry to maybe spend 3, 4, 5 sessions on one theme or one text the amount of feedback I get from people just saying, oh, it's been so good to just peel that back a little bit and take our time on that and not just try and squeeze that into a 25 30 minute sermon on a Sunday morning, but, but actually take a bit of. 

[00:02:10] Unpack. So there is I I'm, I'm a great believer in sort of exposition teaching. I, I love the idea of just, that's, that's spend six or seven weeks if we can, or six or seven sessions or whatever on a, on a, a singular. Passage of scripture and allow the sort of juices to marinate out of that. And and into that. 

[00:02:31] So it just gorgeous. I, I think it's a, it's a lovely thing to be able to do. And, and we have the privilege of just doing what we love chatting to each other about the Bible and Jesus and the church. So it's lovely. 

[00:02:43] David: it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. So we left Peter at the end of his long sermon. Didn't we? And so he's, so this first sermon of the Christian Church and, and we sort of left it and we're about to hear. What the response of the sermon is. And if you've read through acts before, then you probably know, but it's always worth noting that acts offers a variety of insights into the types of responses you can get from a sermon 

[00:03:09] John: indeed. 

[00:03:10] David: And uh, in acts a sermon is the sort of thing that can get yourself killed. So you've always got to pay attention to, to how, or it can start a riot or it can or a revival there's. 

[00:03:21] John: Indeed for sure. Absolutely. 

[00:03:24] David: so we're gonna read act chapter two, verse 37 through to 41. John, do you want to. 

[00:03:30] John: I'd love to, I'd love to, so here we go. It says this when the people heard this. They were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles brothers, what shall we do? Peter replied, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sense. And you will receive the gift of the holy spirit. 

[00:03:56] The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off for all. Whom the Lord, our God will call with many other words. He warned them and he pleaded with them, save yourselves from this corrupt generation. Those who accepted his message were baptized and about 3000 were added to their number that day. 

[00:04:23] David: so a, a really good a really good response from your first sermon and, and preachers, preachers around the world feeling feeling like their first sermons perhaps were not as good as 

[00:04:36] John: Indeed indeed, which is always a good reason. Why not to compare yourself to people, you end up comparing apples to oranges and you think my goodness. So yeah, my, my first sermon six points all beginning with the letter C from Jeremiah chapter one, I was 14 years of age. And I think I managed to preach that in about three and a half minutes or something. And there are people listening to me today that think, oh, John, I wish you would go back to your three and a half minute sermons. But but yeah that, that was, it was not, it was not a glorious experience, but a great one, nonetheless, a great one, nonetheless. 

[00:05:08] I think, I think for me, David, I, one of the things that jumped out immediately to me, when we, when we were sort of started reading for verse 37 was it's another question. 

[00:05:19] David: Mm-hmm 

[00:05:20] John: Um, so this whole sort of Peter sermon begins with a question, doesn't it? Like, what does this mean? And so the Crowder asking when they see the outpouring of the spirit, what does it mean? 

[00:05:30] And then we get this other beautiful question, which sort of then prompts Peter to go into this, what you may call an appeal scenario and they asked the question, what shall we. Isn't that beautiful. We we've moved from, Hey, what does this mean to, okay, now that you've explained what this means, what shall we do? 

[00:05:50] And it, it does show us that Peter's sermon the content of that sermon and we've reflected on the sermon in general and some of the fantastic old Testament illusions within his text. That it does connect with his audience, that they are definitely connecting the dots that these great references to jewel and the Psalms and the prophet David and the messianic accreditation of Jesus has connected and that they are cut to their heart. 

[00:06:20] When this whole idea that not only is Jesus Messiah, but somehow directly or indirectly, you had a part in his destruction. And I love then the question, okay, what do we need to do? I love this. And and, and certainly for me as a teacher, preacher, I, I do love the fact that when you teach and preacher get questions, you, you, you, you want people to ask the right sort of question. 

[00:06:43] I, I know there are questions that can be asked that, take us down. Culex but I love this question. Because this question is really leading us into a place of freedom and application. What do we need to do now? You've explained this. So, so where do we go? And I, and I love that, that we've got two gorgeous questions that sort of top until this sermon sort of thing. 

[00:07:01] David: I I've long thought that the, the most important question at the end of any sermon is so what right. As, and then he, this is a, so what, so what should we do,  

[00:07:10] we started doing this thing at my church where we pause this sermon about two thirds of the way through now and, and have a dialogue in our congregation. And so, so we will simply, we'll simply say, okay, who's got any questions about what we're saying and, and we, and we help our congregation think of questions by, by pointing. 

[00:07:30] We use a frame of three CS cuz you know, we are Pentecostal. So , so we have three CS, which is conflict, clarity and confusion. Right. And we. Did you know, does the sermon bring you some conflict or has it brought you some clarity or are you confused about something? But then we ask the question, and maybe what is the holy spirit saying to you in this? 

[00:07:48] And John, we have some phenomenal moments at the end of, or at this point in, of dialogue in this sermon of, of, of. Really, what we're trying to do is, is break away from the idea that the pastor gives a lecture and we all go home. But really that actually we are in dialogue as a community. And that, so what question, a question forces you, I think, to think, what am I supposed to do with this? 

[00:08:12] What am I, what, so this again, I think we see Peter sermon is giving us a sort of model. What sermons should be like. Right. And I think you see this throughout act, the sermons pointing us to Jesus. It's making sense of the story that we find ourselves in, but using Jesus as a lens, and it leads us to a response and I think it's interesting when you were saying that I was thinking about in act 17. 

[00:08:40] there's, there's the, the famous be believers and and Paul goes to the synagogue in verse 11 says these ones, these, these people were more open than those in Cecil and ICA, cuz they welcomed the message. Eagerly and examined scripture every day to see whether these things were so, and, and I, and I love this image that we're seeing throughout acts of, of the impact of a sermon that people are, are saying, oh, okay. 

[00:09:06] The way to understand what someone's saying is, does it line up with scripture and what does it call us to do? I just think for, for. Maybe you've got a pastor or a preacher in your life who asks that question? So what at the end of every sermon, but if they don't ask that question, I think we should always be cognizant of that is our job. 

[00:09:26] We should ask that question at the end. And maybe it's obvious when you ask the question, oh, I know how to respond or maybe, go and speak to your pastor afterwards and go, Hey, thanks for that teaching. Where am I? What do you think I should do with that? Here's where I'm at. And I, I don't think that. 

[00:09:41] Disrespectful to a sermon. I actually think it says, so what could sound disrespectful, but I think that's what you see in act is sermons are given to elicit responses in our hearts. Aren't they. 

[00:09:52] John: completely, completely. And, and years ago I was, when I was starting off, someone said to me that that even the way we communicate the word of God, that there should be some internal type of reasoning that leads to questions. That, that when you're bringing something to a community, you're thinking about something you want them to know. 

[00:10:11] So know what, and why is that important? So, And then what do you want them to do with it now? What, so you, within, even, even today, I'm still broadly guided by those ideas. What do I want, what do I, think's important for a community of people to hear from this particular text? Why is that important for them to hear that? 

[00:10:34] And I know what does it look. Where does it go? I, I, I often ask the question, right? What does that look like? So when we, when we land on an idea as a personal follower of Jesus, I'm asking, what does that, what does that look like then to work that out? And, and I think that is a dynamic part of discipleship. 

[00:10:52] that we are not only open to receive questions. And of course that's a challenge for some settings where we don't encourage questions because we see questions is maybe troublesome are even rebellious when actually questions are all part of dynamic learning provided they are appropriate and right questions, there. 

[00:11:10] There are unhelpful questions, but if we're asking the right sort of question with the right sort of heart, that's all part of this learning dynamic. And as, as communicators preachers teachers, we should be building questions into our sermons directly or indirectly. There should be something that we're lining up that will provoke. 

[00:11:30] Questions. And we mustn't be afraid of that. And that doesn't mean that we have to have even every answer to the question, but, but at least it creates, and I love what you're doing. It creates conversation. It creates confidence in the conversation and it allows for a little bit of mess, but it also then gives opportunity for guidance in direction. 

[00:11:49] David: mm-hmm.  

[00:11:50] John: these guys ask this question, these people ask this question and Peter is ready with a very, very strong, clear definitive sort of answer, which then in itself becomes a bit of a programmatic thing for us in the book of X. But I love the fact that it starts with a question. What, what does this, what does this mean? 

[00:12:09] And then it finishes with, okay, what do I need to do now? And I love that progression. I love the fact we've progressed from asking. For it to be explained tonight, asking Hyatt's exampled or practiced. And that's ultimately a beautiful trajectory for us knowing, moving from something we know to something we do. 

[00:12:30] I love that. I love that. 

[00:12:31] David: And, and this little line in verse 40, he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them. So, so the sermon has created this conversation, which I think is, is really exciting. And and I love what you said there that, act is, and acts is modeling this to us. 

[00:12:46] This is not rebellion from a people we we've gotta get away from this idea that the preacher is, is somehow untouch. And I think, I think across the world, we can see the damage of what happens when the, when the preacher is, is untouchable. And, and as you said, there's bad ways and good ways to, to, to deal with that. 

[00:13:03] But I think there's something there's something profound in what you see bouncing through acts of people discussing. Unpacking. And I think it's so important that we've got this, this written word of God. They search the scriptures. The bris did to see what was happening and this written word of God, which is pointing us to the word of God, who is Jesus. 

[00:13:25] And, and that to me is, is, is a really where Christian community comes alive. Actually a group of people being pointed towards Jesus, asking the. What should we do? Right. And it's, it's quite, it's, it's, it's quite gorgeous actually.  

[00:13:41] John: It is. It is. It's absolutely gorgeous.  

[00:13:44] David: I had a question for you, John. Just curious in your thoughts, verse 38, right? So, so Peter's initial response to them, right. what should we do is asked and Peter said to them, repent, be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ. 

[00:13:59] So your sins may be forgiven and receive the gift of the holy spirit. Now it's interesting that Peter sort of does all of that in one big sentence. And, and I think many of our, our listeners. Maybe have experienced all three of those things, but we have this tendency to sort of draw it out quite a lot in the contemporary world. 

[00:14:21] And that might be a two or three year process that we've got there. And I just, and. Without, I know I don't wanna corner any of us and, and we all come from different traditions as listeners and so on and so forth. But, but there's something. Yeah. What do you, what are your kind of responses? 

[00:14:36] Let me not ask you a framed question there, but what are your sort of thoughts on just the kind of speed that Peter drops this on everybody it's like, let's do this all straight away, sort. 

[00:14:47] John: Yeah, it's, it's very powerful. And, and I think in, in many ways, Peter. If you follow then the trajectory from Peter's words into the book of X, it, he, it does seem to be setting up a sort of some normative ingredients for the conversion, understanding this understanding, becoming a follower of the way. 

[00:15:10] Seems to have these four key elements as either an expectation or as an experience in, in order to engage. And quite often they are seen to happen relatively quickly. Together. And when there, when certain elements haven't happened, there's a question as to why they haven't happened. So, so now they don't always have to happen in a particular order, but, but the elements of repentance, baptism, and water and this understanding of that being an expression of forgiveness of sins, and then being filled with the spirit, these elements all run together very quickly. 

[00:15:51] I, I mean, Sort of sound making it sound too corporate, which a place I hope it doesn't, but they're, they almost seem like part of a package. What, what, and the early church expectation seems to be. If you express a change of mind towards Jesus, let's get you baptized in water. Like immediately. There's no baptism class. 

[00:16:12] There's no six week gap it's straight in. And then the expectation is either after that, or even before that Cornelius's household are filled with the spur before they're baptized in water. There is an expectation to be filled with the spirit. So you get these dynamic ideas together and I think. 

[00:16:32] It's because they are seen in many ways as essential markers of this, this not only the experience of receiving Jesus, but of markers of joining this new way, there is a a baptism dynamic that says we're being baptized into this new way into this Jesus, and then the power of the spirit to empower us to live this new way and go forward. 

[00:16:55] So it seems to me, David, that they are. As essential ingredients to what the language we may call a conversion experience. It's not just an issue of belief. It is an issue of belief and then baptism behavior. And then this openness to the holy spirit who empowers us to do this, believing this following is community. 

[00:17:19] And I know. In in probably the next podcast, we're gonna lean into this community, the 2 42 stuff. And, and I, I think that's an essential idea that this is leading us towards living in community with a common identity and empowered path, the spirit to enable us. So a as, as in modern church history, we have tended to separate these. 

[00:17:42] Hugely. And I think those gaps are both unhelpful and unnecessary. And I know that's a different conversation, but, but I don't think they're, they're really helping followers of Jesus to engage with some of these core ideas. So yeah, I, I, I, that would be my, my blink reaction and, and, and as a reflection on that, 

[00:18:03] David: As you were talking, I was thinking about the Ethiopian Euch that we will, again, get to in acts chapter acts chapter nine, isn't it. And I was saying nine it's, eight. Isn't it. the  

[00:18:14] John: He's easy 

[00:18:14] Paul's name. Yeah. 

[00:18:16] David: Yes, that's right. Excellent. And I will I'll delete that from the podcast and nobody knows I've got my acts chapters muddled up the the Ethiopian Euch, think about that story there again, in terms of the model that we're seeing in acts, Philip comes across this man reading. . And, and, and the man says, well, I can read the scripture, but I can't understand the scripture. So Philip says, well, let me show you how this scripture points you to Jesus. Right? The man's response then is, well, look, here's water what's to stop me being baptized. 

[00:18:46] And, and Philip essentially throws him in the water. . And, and I think it's interesting. We have a tendency within the contemporary church to say, oh, okay, well you say you believe in Jesus. Let's see if you're serious about that. And if you, if you appear serious about that, then we'll look at baptizing you, and then maybe we'll do some more classes in a few programs. 

[00:19:07] And then we'll start talking about how God's spirit is, is with you. And I think it seems in X, the model is more, like stuff, the person full of God, get him in the water and then let's kind of tidy up everything after that let's deal with it, as we, as we go along which I think we could. We as modern Christians could probably learn a lot about just being a bit messier and, and, and actually, being sometimes a bit more. I mean, I, I don't hear what I'm not saying, but a bit more impulsive, actually, does that make sense? 

[00:19:44] John: Oh, it makes total sense. And, and I think, I think, today's church, we tend to treat these elements, these conversion ingredients as progressional, 

[00:19:53] David: Mm-hmm 

[00:19:54] John: of positional. 

[00:19:55] David: Yes. Yes. 

[00:19:56] John: So, if you've come to a place in Christ, Jesus, there's nothing to stop you being baptized because baptism is not about understanding. 

[00:20:04] Okay, what baptism is, baptism is simply a sign that you've believed. And then, and then we can unpack a, a deep birth theology as we go, if that's necessary. And the power of the spirit is nothing about you being a better Christian or having proved your stripes as a Christian or having sort of earned a little bit of, progression as a Christian, therefore. 

[00:20:22] Progress to the place where you can receive the spirit. No, no. You're a child of God. As a child of God now, as part of this new awareness new continent, you can receive the holy spirit, which Peter has just explained that the holy Spirit's for your sons, for your daughters, for the old man, for the young man, for anyone who will call upon the name of the Lord. 

[00:20:38] So we've tended to impose on this and, and please forgive me. It's not meant to be a, a judgemental C. , but it's just an observation. We've imposed a progressional element onto this, which is both unnecessary. And unhelpful. And I would rather, if we were gonna err, on the side of any mistake here, I would rather get people to use your quote stuff full of God, get them into the water, get them filled with the holy spirit and then spend the next four or five, six months explaining what has happened rather than explaining something and then sort of giving him the option. 

[00:21:17] Well, do you wanna get baptized? Do you wanna get filled with this part and then becomes a bit of. Well, it's down to you. What, what would you like to do? And actually here's Peter going? No, no, this is really not an option. As part of this conversion experience. This is, this is all part of the package you are buying into believe, repent, receive the forgiveness of sins, be baptized in water, be filled with the spirit. 

[00:21:41] It's all part of this idea. And I think if we had much more confidence in the positional. Approach that the minute a man, a woman, a boy or girl puts their trust in Jesus, they can. And should where possible engage with all of these things as quickly as possible and not turn it into a drawn out progressional dynamic, which to lead us into, I think, an unhealthy idea that you progress to baptism you progress to the feeling of the spirit when actually. 

[00:22:17] None of those things are progressional ideas. They are positional ideas.  

[00:22:21] We can receive those things because we are sons and daughters of God. 

[00:22:24] David: I I've said in a few different contexts, John, and again, this is can sound a little harsh and that's not the tone that I'm wanting to take. This is not a judgment on anybody, but I think observationally, we should note that there are. Essentially, no UN baptized Christians in the new Testament. Right. So, and I'm, and so sometimes that might, if, if you hear that wrong, that could sound like, Hey, why are you not baptized? 

[00:22:50] What I mean it to, to say is that, that what we see in the new Testament is a profession of faith in Jesus appears to be the only requirement to find yourself in the water. , And right then to, again, I, I, I think you do see these situations where you have acts 19, isn't it? 

[00:23:09] You have, you have Paul appearing in, in Ephesus and bumping into people who You know, who haven't heard yeah. Who haven't heard of Jesus's baptism and this is like, oh, okay. We probably need to probably need to do something about this then don't we? And, and so, and I think there's also a moment back in chapter two that I, I, this little phrase, they were cut to the heart. 

[00:23:30] Right. That, that, that it's, it is a beautiful little, like, the Greek word kinda speaks to me. Cut, pierced, stabbed even. There is. An emotional response to this. I think, I mean, that's what I read in that sort of text. This is, this is something that gets downplayed a lot, I think, in, in contemporary Christianity that, oh, oh, oh, no, this is, this is a brain. 

[00:23:53] We're big believers in the brain. Aren't we in, in the modern world. I think again, I'd love to hear your residencies of it, but for me, when I read 2 37, it reminds me. The, the experience of encountering, the good news of Jesus is a holistic experience. It's an experience, not just of my head right. There is an emotional something's moved me. 

[00:24:19] And so often I hear people say, oh, well, yeah, but they just responded in the emotion. Well, well, you are a human and humans have emotions and here we have the people in act. Am I over pushing that John? Or is there an emotional response driving this? 

[00:24:33] John: No, no, I, I think I, I totally agree with that. And, and I, I think what really helps me in this is what's producing the emotional response.  

[00:24:42] So, we we've reflected on verse 36 that actually it's this climactic statement that, that God. Attested God accredited that Jesus is both Lord and Messiah and it's that it seems to be that truth, which cuts to the heart. 

[00:25:00] So, so for me, emotional response, emotional involvement, emotional engagement. I have no problem with that at all. I think that is going to be part and parcel of the human experience. But of course, what. Keen on is that emotional response is being produced by truth, not by emotional manipulation. So you, and, and when you look at Peter here, there's no attempt to manipulate them. 

[00:25:27] He like there's no, he's just, he's just calling it as it is. He's saying, this is what happened. This is who did it. This is why it happened, and this is what you need to do. And, and there's no, there's no manipulation of the audience with emotionalism in order to produce a shallow emotional response, which I think sometimes is the fear. 

[00:25:46] Rather, this is an emotional response in part that is produced by dynamic understanding of. 

[00:25:54] And when, when you get a revelation of truth, when Thomas says to Jesus, my Lord and my God, I am pretty certain that is saturated with emotion. Now it's a revelation of truth, but when he got, when he says that, my goodness, I think, I think that must have been off the scale in the context of, of that moment. 

[00:26:15] So we do not deny emotional responses or even an understanding of emotionalism provided, of course. And this is where we would, we would certainly, we, we would wanna take care. We don't simply want to. Produce an emotional response from an emotional appeal. We want that emotional response to be produced by if it's going to happen by truth. 

[00:26:40] Because then when the, when the cutting of the heart subsides the decision to engage with truth. Continues, which is exactly then why Peter's pushing him towards baptism filled with the spirit. He's now pushing him into, as it were actions that move their emotions to something solid. If it's just emotion, this'll disappear in five minutes. 

[00:27:05] If this is truth with emotion, then this is gonna last. 

[00:27:10] David: Which speaks beautifully again to that question of what should we do? And, and, and it's amazing to me, John. I mean, thinking about this section of to do, but how much guidance there is for us as Jesus followers attending a local church. . I, I think that, I think of my experience and conferences cannot sometimes be the worst place for this, where there's, there is a sermon. 

[00:27:31] Which leads to a hugely emotional response, but by three o'clock the next afternoon, we kind of almost forgot what was said. We just had a nice time of feeling right here. We have, oh, I'm cut to the. What should we do? So initially we know that there's clearly more than just emotion going on here because the response of the people is, I think you want us to do something as a result of this, even though there's emotion going on. 

[00:27:55] I also feel that, and Peter's, think we've talked about this elsewhere, repent to turn around. Literally it means it means turn around. So the first thing is, well, we. Change, is Peter's response to them. And here's what you're gonna do to change is you're gonna, you're gonna get baptized, you're gonna have your sin forgiven. 

[00:28:12] You're gonna move into the holy spirit. So there's, there's a very practical, so I love the way you frame that. There it's that the emotion is part of the journey of, of practical, actionable, responsible steps. So if you. Finding yourself pursuing sermons, where there's strong emotional moments, but not a lot of difference in your life as a result. 

[00:28:37] Something's not happening. That could be that you're not paying attention could be that the sermon's not structuring in a way that's healthy. So it it's fascinating, isn't it? How just reading this, this kinda response to Penta God sermon is guiding us practically as Jesus followers on what to experience in the teaching ministry. 

[00:28:54] And I mean, I just think, I just we've said it so many things, but it just shows the layers of beauty within scripture. 

[00:29:00] John: Yes, absolutely. And I think, a little Provocation warning, encouragement to all of us is preachers teachers, communicators that if you're skilled in the art of communication, you can learn how to manipulate an audience 

[00:29:14] David: mm-hmm 

[00:29:15] John: with emotion, but that is not our job. Our job is not to manipulate people with emotion. 

[00:29:19] Our job is to lead them to truth and to Jesus. And then if they have an emotional experience because they've engaged with Jesus or because they've been cut to the heart or because something. In a revelatory moment has produced a, an emotional response. Then that's wonderful because, because then it's a truth response with emotion rather than an emotional response, devoid of truth. 

[00:29:46] And that will leave. That will leave people. The ladder will leave people empty and, and craving for another high, rather than leaning into truth that will sustain them when emotions are absent. And know, I've had as a Pentecost, I've had some amazing emotional experiences, but I've also had some of the most profound experiences in worship and ministry and a discipleship in life. 

[00:30:14] And I have felt. So if I went on my emotion, I'd be said, well, nothing happened there, but actually profound things happened and it wasn't necessarily an emotional response to correlate with that, but it was a truth response. So I, to me, emotion is bonus, but shouldn't be discounted, but it mustn't be at the center of our, our goal as communicators. 

[00:30:37] When we are presenting Jesus. 

[00:30:38] David: Mm, I love that emotion has to be rooted in something, something, deeper. Well, John, let's leave that there. And I have some questions for you next time about the 3000 people. I have some, some questions about about some parallels in that, but let's leave that till our next episode. 

[00:30:57] John: fantastic.