Holy and Mundane | Disruptive Presence 11

In which John and David look at the results of the Holy Spirit arriving in Acts 2. We note that often we say "the Holy Spirit came and everyone spoke in other languages!" But is that all that happened? What if we looked more closely and saw that there was, maybe, still more that the Spirit was doing?

Episode 64 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 11

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Transcript

 Transcript autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] John: Well, David I have to say I'm loving , our slow pays through X. Just to give our listeners a little bit of an insight. I'm not sure we even anticipate it. We would be going this slow, but we are just it the, to, to coin your phrase, which I think you've, you've coined from Jenning's this disruptive presence of the holy spirit he's been disrupting. 

[00:01:08] Our plan. And and we are just, we're just slowing down a little bit. And even in our last podcast, we thought, oh, well, let's, that's deal with the response of the people in one podcast. And now we're rolling that into two because there is so much of a conversation in there and it, again, it shows the richness of this. 

[00:01:23] So we, we wanna sort of, Think about the response of the people so that, Peter calls this idea of repentance be baptized in water for the forgiveness of sins, be filled with the spirit. And then we get this really interesting moment from Luke where he gives us very accurately, the amount of people who respond in the context of this. 

[00:01:45] He tells us that in, in terms of the response 3000 people. We're added to their number that day. Now that seems like a bit of a random number, but of course, there, as we've tried to do constantly, when we hear little echoes and nuances in the text, that flag something, we, we do tend to pause and sort of think, hold on a minute, I've come across 3000 before in a particular scenario. 

[00:02:14] Why 3000 is that. Number is that random or is there something else going on there? 

[00:02:19] David: Forgive me, I can't think of what all the translations do, but I actually think the word about's quite interesting there, because at first glance that could appear like Luke is being vague. Because he's saying. It's about 3000, but I think if you've got a sharp ear. 

[00:02:38] I tempted to think that that is where the precision comes is his use of the word about, because if you go way back into the scriptures, back into Exodus, there's this moment after the giving of the law in Exodus 32, where the people basically fall apart as a result of Moses spending a bit long up in the mountain, don't they? 

[00:03:00] And. And there's a story there. And, and, the people, Moses breaks the tablets. There's all sorts of things, that go on around that story. It, it's pretty intense, but one of the net results of it is that and it's a dark story, but as a, as a part of their idolatry, you find the process that the priests of Israel essentially run this program wherein a number of Israelites die. But if you go to excess chapter 32, verse 28, the numbers really significant cuz it says the Levis did as Moss's commanded. 

[00:03:31] And that day about 3000 people died. Right? And so, so I think that about three thousand's really interesting because here we are, let's go back to X let's hold, our old Testament, our new Testament together for a second. 

[00:03:46] We've got the Pentecost Festival. We've talked about this before, so you can listen to this in previous episodes. This is the Pentecost Fe festival is all linked to the giving of law. Isn't it? It's all, it's all connected to the story and history about the, the giving of the law. What happened at the giving of the law? 

[00:04:04] Well, the giving of the law actually coincides as so often does in human lives. Great works of God. Coincide with embarrassing moments for us. In Israel's history, the giving of the law, the great work of God in that coincides with a very huge moment of idolatry and, and, and unfaithfulness to God, the net result of which about 3000 people died. 

[00:04:29] And I can't help, but think that when Luke uses about 3000 what appears to be an insertion of vagueness is actually an insertion of accuracy. To point out that at the giving of the law, when about 3000 people have died now at the celebration of the law, when the holy spirit has come in and come into their hearts, that the church look at the restoring presence of God, that about 3000 people were added back and, and I can't help, but see Luke drawing some symmetry for us. 

[00:05:03] To say, look at how God is restoring. Remember this whole sermon rooted in Joel too, which is all about God bringing back things which have been taken away. So, so I just, I think there's, I think there's just one of those little neat moments of Luke's genius coming in there as to how he tells a story to say, Hey, listen, 3000 people joined the church that day, but I'm gonna frame it in a particular way so that you see the story that's being told here. 

[00:05:30] I mean, what do you think. 

[00:05:31] John: Ah, I love it. I, I love it. And again, remember that the, the Jewish audience. Reading or listening to this story eventually go 3000. We know that we know that number and it draws an illusion. And if you, if you read back into verse 40 of X two, there's another little interest in illusion where Peter says, it says with many other words and encouragements, he exhorted them by saying, be saved from this perverse. 

[00:06:04] This crooked generat. It's really, really interesting, of course. And you've alluded already to the fact that Exodus 32 is not just famous for the giving of the law, but it's famous for, or infamous for a, a most incredible act of idolatry crookedness. And perverseness, they literally, I mean, Aaron probably comes out with one of the most incredibly funny and tragic leadership lines of all. When Moses comes down from the mountain, Aaron says, well, we, we threw gold in and a calf came out, it's, it's like, it's a cracking. It's, it's gotta be one of the best excuses ever that someone's tried on at any time. We, we just threw our earrings and our rings in and boom calf. 

[00:06:48] There it is. And so we decided to worship it as if this calve produced itself. So you have this incredible paradoxical moment at the food of Sanai where you have the giving of the law. And of course we are not sure if by the time of Jesus, that was a celebrated part of Chava art or Pentecost or it to slightly later development, but that's imagine it it's there. 

[00:07:10] then you've got here. The giving of the law being celebrated in part, along with the harvest, the holy spirit comes and 3000 people respond or about 3000 and the parallels to the giving of the law in sane and 3000 people rejecting God's purpose and plan. And therefore being destroyed is, is an unmissable coincidence. 

[00:07:35] So at the very least, it's just a very interesting coincidence. At if more than that, there is something being said here in this gorgeous restorative idea that here you have a, a beautiful moment of the holy spirit coming. And there is something of a restoration of a people or individuals from their crookedness. 

[00:07:59] Away from that crookedness and into the straightness of the way of Messiah. And, and, and I think that is unmissable. I, I think, I, I would, again, we sometimes say I wouldn't necessarily build my house on that, or I wouldn't wanna fall out with anybody on that, but let it shouldn't be taken off the table. 

[00:08:17] I think the 3000 nuance is definitely significant again. 

[00:08:21] David: I also just want to push that even a little further to, to point out in the history of Israel, you have a group of, of, of exiled. Runaway slaves who have crossed the, the red sea and escape from Egypt. The giving of the law is, is a mark of a, of a move into a new period of covenant with God. Right? So, not quite once you are not a people, and now you're a people at this point, but I think this is the moving from just being a big family to now they are a people. It's interesting that what Luke then does, is follows on from this to describe the, the beginnings of a community. So if, if I can read it for a second, what is the next response? Acts two verse 42. "They devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need every day. They continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes, ate together with gladdens and see your hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people and the Lord added to their number daily. Those who are being saved." So you have a community and, and again, if Luke is following a pattern, there is a pattern to see here that models the pattern of Israel,  

[00:09:52] John: Completely completely. Yes. At, at the food of Sanai, a nation is being shaped around Torah. That will give that nation definition, identity, you, in a sense example and As it were set apart, us a holy nation, Royal priesthood, those ideas are all being shaped at the food of Santa. That's why the idolatry moment is a shocking moment because in the absence of Moses, the, the people quickly gravitated to something that they may not even have gravitated to an Egypt. 

[00:10:22] And there's a call back to the purity of God at the center. And I think here at Pentecost, we've got. The outpouring of the spirit immediately, immediately located into C. Immediately. So we, we move from this amazing missional demonstration of the power of the spirit in these multiple languages that have the glory of the Lord being communicated to 15, 16, 17 language groups that are, that are there on that. 

[00:10:53] Amazing day they're swept in, but it doesn't stop there immediately. We're moved to community. So this conversation starts in community. They were together in one place in one accord when the holy spirit comes. So the coming of the spirit is located in community, but then the coming of that spirit brings definition and, and power and direction. 

[00:11:16] And can I say uniqueness to this community in the same way that you have those nuances tracked at, at the law giving in Sanai? So there are undoubtedly parallels here that this new community being formed by the power of the spirit on this day, that's signified the giving of the law or the harvest of, of of, of the people. 

[00:11:39] So, so it's absolutely striking that, that we're now. About to be led into what this new community looks like, the sheer and identity of this community. 

[00:11:49] David: I wanna encourage anyone to look at it this way, one accord at the start bigger community at the end of it still community. I think it's worth us trying as hard as we can to see what we see happen at the start of acts two speaking tongues sounds of wind, tongues of fire. 

[00:12:08] We see that as a work of the holy spirit. And then what we see at the end of acts too, all who believed were together and had all things in common. I think we need to see that as a work of the holy spirit too, both are equally a work of the holy spirit. And, um, sometimes I think the bigger work of the holy spirit is not tongues of fire and speaking in languages, never learned the big, unbelievable work of the holy spirit is that everybody shared everything they had and had everything in common, but too often, we think that that's not the holy spirit. And I think there's a beautiful evidence of the, what I'll quote as the supernatural impact of the holy spirit. 

[00:12:46] But then, but then also. The impact of the holy spirit in the mundane of just look how these people treated each other, they were generous. They were glad they had Goodwill of all the people.  

[00:12:57] John: Completely completely.  

[00:12:58] David: Just to jump into another parallel then John, I think it's worth having a, a contrast of, of Luke chapter three and the end of acts chapter two at this point. 

[00:13:08] John: Mm-hmm 

[00:13:10] David: Because in Luke chapter three, we bump into John the Baptist don't we? And so, so in Luke's first volume he introduces us to John, the Baptist and well, I mean, most people can probably remember John the Baptist message. 

[00:13:22] But, but let me just remind you of John the Baptist message, this Luke chapter three, verse three, John went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. So what. What has Peter said to the people he said, repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus. 

[00:13:41] So your sins may be forgiven, right? So, so there's a little parallel there. Peter's not come up with a brand new message. He's now echoing the message from John that precedes. But what I started to notice John, which I found like really exciting, cuz you know, I get a little too enamored with, with a parallel notice also how do the, how did the crowd respond to John? The Baptist message. Luke chapter three, verse 10. What then, should we do they say, how did the crowd respond to, to Peter? What should we do? But here more exciting. Look what John, look what John says. 

[00:14:19] And this is the bit that I don't hear parallels so often look what John says. He says in reply, he said to them, whoever has two coat. Must share with anyone who has none and whoever has food must do. Likewise. Flip our Bibles back to acts chapter two for a second. What then, should we do repent? Be Baptiz ties, forgiveness, re sins, all the stuff we've seen, but look what they do. 

[00:14:40] They sell possessions and distribute, proceeds to any who had need. They, they ate together with glad and generous hearts. Like I'm getting kind of excited at this point, because then. And he, then he then points out, don't extort people, John, the Baptist says don't make false accusations. Right. And then it comes back to the question. 

[00:15:01] So now Luke chapter three verse 15. So are you the Messiah, John? What does John reply? I baptize you with water, but one who is more powerful is coming and he will baptize you with the holy spirit. And, and I just think it's. Fascinating  

[00:15:17] John: Yes. Yes. And, and I think there's very little to add to that, David. I think it's absolutely there. And again, you don't have to work hard at sort of seeing those parallels once you see them and you go, wow. There is a, there is a similarity and, and of course we have this lovely little idea in, in X 19, where Paul meets disciples of John. 

[00:15:39] David: Mm 
 

[00:15:40] John: they're clearly living a life that's compatible or similar to following away with the exception of engaging with Jesus. And Paul is the one who nudges them over the line. As far as the Jesus centricity of their journey is concerned and then introduces them to the holy spirit. So, so I. I think John's message is a powerful and he does prepare the way he does set the tone he does make it possible. 

[00:16:08] And the elements that John is preaching are not random. They're, they're the core of the kingdom, which then are picked up by this. This community and taken forward. So there are these beautiful connecting points that are all going on here. And, and what a, what a tremendous, as it were honored to John, it is when the, the church that he never got to see in the way that it now is practicing and behaving, that, that, that maybe the outpouring of the spirit that he. Experience in the fullness that we're now seeing at ch Oden Pentecost. That actually there is a sense in which his work is not futile, his, his work contributes to all of that. And there's a gorgeous tip of the hat towards John, as it were. There's a gorgeous affirmation of his work. Having, having seen him explicitly explained in Luke three we, we now see the. 

[00:17:06] Echo of that, the continuation of that in X chapter two. And I think it's absolutely there. And, and it is interesting that Luke allows that to be picked up. He, he allows those connecting thoughts to be, to be contained within this record, which is absolutely true and beautiful. 

[00:17:24] David: And why, I think that's interesting, John, for me is number one. 

[00:17:28] I think there's a question. If you're not reading the parallels of going, but why do the people do this? Right? What leads them to be like this? What I think we're now seeing is, oh, this is deeply rooted in the expectation of the Messiah's work that he will bring about sharing. Right. Having things in common. 

[00:17:46] I also think what, what you get in this is a lesson perhaps to us, that. Very common theme that I will go on and on about that, even our sharing and our, like, I would describe this almost as, as them doing the justice of the Lord. Right. Micah calls us to do justice there, later in acts, we're gonna find there was no poor amongst them. 

[00:18:09] Like they, they have somehow eradicated poverty in their group. This is all part of working out the, I think the old Testament profits announcement of what the day of the Lord will bring, which is justice for all. We can sometimes get into the habit of thinking, oh, well we just have to work really hard at justice. 

[00:18:29] Right. And here is another part of the text suggesting that this will actually be. I wanna use the word fruit, but that might, that actually is probably gonna be too obscuring a bit. But although I think it might not be invalid even of the fruits of the spirit Galatians, but it is a result of the holy Spirit's impact in our life. 

[00:18:48] What differentiates God's justice from gen general justice seeking is the holy spirit is driving. This is bringing harmony is knocking down barriers. And I think that. That's really significant for us that, that it's not our effort. Once again, it's the holy spirit stirring something up in this community. 

[00:19:10] John: And, and I think there's a beautiful, you, you reference the fruit of the spread. I think there's a beautiful connection there to Paul, Paul talks about this incredible new way. That's found in faith, in Jesus, in Galatians. And, but he also describes, you having shown that the law can't save and actually we can't, we don't have the power to keep the law. 

[00:19:32] He then says, he almost answers the question. Well, okay, well, how are you gonna keep the, to of Jesus? How are you gonna keep the law of Jesus and Galatians? He, well, well, we do that by the fruit of the spirit. We do that by walking with the spirit, we do that by staying and step with the spirit. We do that by engaging with the spirit. 

[00:19:47] And again, We we've probably been guilty over the years of taking the fruit of the spirit passage, lifting it out of its context, then sort of doing a nine part series on these gorgeous flavors of the fruit of the spirit. But remember those, that passage of walking in the spirit, keeping in step of the spirit and the fruit of the spirit are absolutely located in Paul driving home, an incredible message to a community that is being Bewitched and, and hassled by the. 

[00:20:17] A theology that says you need Moses to come to Jesus. You need to go back before you go forward. You need the law before you have life. And Paul is fighting for that freedom. And he's saying actually the law couldn't see of, and you don't have the power to keep it, but we have this spirit who forms Jesus, not only in me as an individual, but who forms Jesus in us as a community and the whole of the language of Galatians five and six is community oriented. 

[00:20:45] It's about the life of the spirit. In the community, the life of the spirit that is helping this community to flourish and to function. And again, one of the things that we've done and I speak as a card carrying Pentecostal. So I think I've got some traction to be able to say this without discerning judgmental in any way, but as a card carrying pen, we've sometimes reduced the experience of the spirit to an individual idea. 

[00:21:12] This is about me being filled with the spirit so that I, John Andrews can do what Jesus has called me to do. Now, do I believe that as a truth? I do, but it is not the whole truth because I need to be filled with the spirit, not just so that John Andrews can do in terms of my own personal call and purpose, but so that we can do in community, we can do together. 

[00:21:34] We can not only reach the world and export Jesus to the world, but we example Jesus to the. We demonstrate what justice looks like by the way we treat each other. We demonstrate what generosity looks like by the fact that we look after the poor, we demonstrate what equality looks like because of the way we treat those, that society would marginalized. And we are doing all of that by the word of the Lord and by the power of the spirit. And that's why I would absolutely agree with you, David, that this, this I pouring of the spirit is not just the empowerment for mission and reaching the world, but it's the empowerment to build a dynamic, alternative community, a community that demonstrates the Torah of Jesus that demonstrates the law of life. 

[00:22:22] In Christ Jesus through the power of the spirit. And that's why I think these chapter two, it's all connected. And sometimes in my Bible, Chapter two verse 42 is, is introduced by heading and it separates 2 42 from the rest of this tax. And I go, why, why are we doing that? We're creating an artificial division that does not exist. 

[00:22:45] And that causes me then to change gear thing. Okay. We're talking about something else now. No, we're not. We're talking about the seam thing. We're talking about the seam spirit who swept these 3000 people. Through Peter sermon is now the cm spirit, helping these believers to share what they have in common. 

[00:23:03] It's the same idea and it must not be disconnected. They are congruent to the whole of his agenda. 

[00:23:10] David: And, and that's what I find exciting. I think about the the little parallels between this passage in X two and Luke's introduction. I was to John because you start. It does just affirm exactly what you're saying. The, the, sometimes the translations put that new heading in, it breaks it off. 

[00:23:26] But when you go to back to John, the Baptist, you've got all of the same components, but they're, they're muddled up in a slightly different order. So it's harder to break them off. But even we still do. If I, if I said, if you did a pop quiz, Amongst most churches and just said, Hey, what was John? 

[00:23:43] The Baptist message. I think most of us would go fire in brimstone. Right? But here you have John, the Baptist message. Like if you have two coats, give one away and we go, no, no, that was Jesus's message. It was also John, the Baptist message. And, and actually, if you go back into the prophets, it was the message of God from, from the beginning as to, as to how do we be a blessing to the world and how do we do we move into that? 

[00:24:07] And, and so I think you're absolutely right. Again, we extract the holy spirit from the mundane and, and we, and we, we think the holy Spirit's interested in, in supernatural and salvation. And, and I think it leaves us so often needing to ask the question, but so what should we do? what do you do after that? 

[00:24:26] And it's fascinates me that X never gets stuck in that problem. You repent, you believe you get baptized, you feel the holy spirit and you don't then sit and twiddle your thumbs and go well, What's next. And, and going back to what we said in an earlier episode, sometimes I wonder if by stretching out that process of believing being Baptiz. 

[00:24:46] And being filled with the holy spirit, it gives us something to do for a long period of time. Whereas what Luke seems to be said yes into us is no, we do all this at once. Cuz now there's other work for the holy spirit to do in us. And he's gonna start sort of showing us what those things are as we progress our way through this incredible text acts. 

[00:25:05] But so I, I, I, I love that notion that 2 42. Is linked to 43 and it's showing us what the holy spirit could look like in our lives. 

[00:25:18] John: Absolutely 100% and, and it must be a warning to us, a a, an important warning that. The holy spirit is, is not to fall. He, he, we mustn't allow him to fall into the category of an, of an individualistic approach to our understanding of faith. The holy spirit hasn't just come for me. The holy spirit has come for us. 

[00:25:42] My spirituality is not just about me. My spirituality is about us now. I, I, I think the Bible celebrates individuality, like no other book on the planet. That would be my position. The Bible also resists individualism, an individuality that says I am special. I am unique. Absolutely. We say our meant to that, but an individualism that says I am enough. 

[00:26:04] I think the biblical text pushes back against, and, and we, the whole of the book of acts is located in the context of community. And I think we have to see the work of the spirit. It is fullness in the context of community, a mission. Yes. Personal empowerment. Yes. Community living. Yes. And bringing all of that together, I think makes a dynamically different reading of the text of the book of X.