Finding Jesus in Everything | Disruptive Presence 14

In which John and David discuss Peter's teaching to the temple crowd in Acts 3. What does this sermon tell us about how the early Christians saw the story of Jesus and how it shaped their view of the world?

Episode 67 of the Two Texts Podcast | Disruptive Presence 14

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Transcript

 Transcript Autogenerated by Descript.com

[00:00:00] John:  so David, we are back in chapter three and we finished. 

[00:00:55] This gorgeous story of the man being healed at gate beautiful. And we, we were reflecting on this idea just as we finished last podcast that that people were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him. And I loved your thought, the beautiful contrast of this gorgeous gate, this bronze coded gate. 

[00:01:14] But the thing that. Catching their attention and their wonderment and their amazement was the healing of this man. But of course this moment then creates another moment. It, it it now creates an opportunity for Peter to speak to this group of people. And that's the bit, now we're gonna pick up. 

[00:01:31] We're gonna, I, I suppose we might reflect on this is Peter's second official sermon. On the record, I'm sure he is preached other sermons privately. But this is like his second public sermon on the record. So it'll be fascinating to hear what Peter has to say on the back of this incredible miracle. 

[00:01:48] And you're, you're, you're gonna read the passage for us. 

[00:01:50] David: It's always interests me as well, John, that sometimes, pastors and churches get criticized for always having sermons, everything. And why, why do we do that? Why are you always doing sermons? And, and then you read, acts and realize, oh, this is where we learned. It anything. Anything that happens is an opportunity for a good sermon. 

[00:02:07] Isn't it. 

[00:02:07] John: come on. 

[00:02:10] David: So, well, let me read from act chapter three and verse 11 then. And it reads like this while the man held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon's Coade. When Peter saw this, he said to them fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? 

[00:02:31] Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness? We had made this man walk the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God of our fathers has glorified his servant. Jesus. You handed him over to be killed and you disowned him before pilot, though, he had decided to let him go. You disowned the holy and righteous one and asked that a merger be released to you. 

[00:02:53] You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this by faith in the name of Jesus. This man whom you see and know was made strong, it is Jesus' name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him as you can. All. Now fellow Israelites, I know that you acted ignorance as did your leaders, but this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets saying that his Messiah would suffer repent then in turn to God so that your sins may be wiped out. 

[00:03:26] That times of refreshing may come from the Lord and that he may send the Messiah who has been appointed for you. Even Jesus heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything. As he promised long ago through his holy prophet. For mosey said, the Lord, your God will raise up for you. 

[00:03:44] A prophet like me among your own people. You must listen to everything. He tells you anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people. Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. 

[00:04:05] He said to Abraham, through your offs. All peoples on earth will be blessed when God raised up his servant. He sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways. 

[00:04:21] John: Credible. Isn't it. I mean, what I'm struck when you read that, it's, it's one of the advantages, again, we've reflected on this. When you hear. A passage read and don't just read it or you read it for yourself out loud. You are hearing things. And as you read that so beautifully, I, I mean, you, you hear an incredible clarity and Orry and confidence in Peter's own. 

[00:04:51] Ability. I mean, this, from what we know of Peter, which is a bit sort of scratchy around the gospels, I mean, this, this sounds like a, a really well polished, well thought through well developed argument. And yet it, it, it could be argued. There's a sort of a level of spontaneity about this sermon that, that Peter hadn't planned to preach that sermon at the hour of prayer, but he is now responding to the crowd coming to him. listening to it again and having read it dozens of times, but hearing it, you go, wow, it's just a superb piece of work. It's, it's, it's confident, it's clear, it's articulate and it really, really lands the ideas. And I'm just struck by, by how good it was. And who's speaking. I, I don't know if that it just struck me a phrase as I was listening to it. 

[00:05:44] Even as you read it, it's just power. 

[00:05:46] David: Well, it's funny because there's always that moment when we, when we finish reading a text on two texts, sometimes the stories are funny and sometimes they're impacting and there's always that thought of what do, what do we say next after the scriptures? Right. And, and I found, I didn't say anything this time, but there was a part of me wanting to. 

[00:06:06] Peter knows where it's at. 

[00:06:08] John: Absolutely. 

[00:06:09] David: and that's what struck me as I was reading. It was used the word clarity. He is absolutely clear on what he thinks is going on here and why we're getting into trouble. I, I always will, will make this point. John, because I don't want to rely on somebody having listened to another episode to track this episode, but I, I think it's worth noting fellow Israelites. 

[00:06:31] So, so some of these speeches and acts have been taken in later parts of church history and used to produce some very anti-Jewish sentiment. But but this is Peter. Speaking to his friends, speaking to people. He knows saying, come on, we've made a mess of this here. He's not, he's not structuring some antisemitic notions, which unfortunately various points of history have. 

[00:06:59] Try to utilize text like this for this. So, so for me, this critique is an internal critique, which is so I, I powerful that I was thinking about that. I can't remember the exact quotation, but there's a famous, there's a famous quote from the rabbis, which says the way to train a child in Torah. Is to take Torah and stuff, the child like an ox and so to just, just, just keep, 

[00:07:23] John: There's an 

[00:07:24] David: keep, yeah, just keep feeding them Torah and and this will be good for them. 

[00:07:29] And, and there's a set level of which here's where I, when I listen to Peter Sturman in acts two and I listen. Peter sermon now in act three, I also find myself thinking I'm beginning to get an insight into what Jesus and these disciples talked about when that we're wandering around, the various parts of Israel, cuz you've got Jesus in the AMAs road, beginning with mosies and the prophets explaining. 

[00:07:57] This story. Right? But now you've got Peter going. Well, this is that. This is Joel. This is this. This is the next thing. Now you've got him going. Let me give you a little bit of history, let me track where things went wrong and that's gonna keep happening. And then you get Steven and now think about him. 

[00:08:12] He's a Greek. Convert to Judaism who is now a convert to Christianity. But when he gets his moment, he does the same thing. He says, oh, look at the story and look at where we've gone. Look at where we've gone aray on this story. So to me, it. I feel like it's an insight into what do Christians talk about? 

[00:08:32] What did Jesus talk about? And I think they're spending lots and lots of time telling their story, but through a messianic lens. And that's where the, I think Thema road, you and I have said before, Isn't it frustrating. We don't have this sermon. I wonder if we see insights to it all over the place that, Jesus begins with mosies and the prophets and explains the Messiah through the story that they knew. I mean, do you resonate with that?  

[00:08:57] John: Totally. And, and in fact, it struck me as you read it out loud to me and I heard it again, but you know, he references Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, he references Moses, Samuel, and infinis with Abraham on, on, and then he throws in, oh, on all the prophets. So it's, it's like serious. 

[00:09:18] He has wheeled out serious heavy hitters there. So, he is positioning this conversation and this again, where I would totally agree with you. And I do hit. What certain people have done to this and made it an antisemitic diatribe. It is absolutely appalling to me. And I don't know how you manage to do that if you read the Bible properly in this context. 

[00:09:40] So, so he is appealing to his fellow Israelites on the basis of the biggest names. They know. 

[00:09:48] David: mm-hmm 

[00:09:48] John: I mean, these are the heavy hitters of TAC and, and, he has, he's already in his first sermon reference people like Joel and he's called David a prophet and he, we we've got all of that going on. 

[00:10:00] Now. He is leaning into. The great patriarchs, Moses, of course. And, and I think the Moses quote is a game changer. I mean, I think, I think his connection to Moses' prophetic statement of Demy 15 is absolutely immense moment. And I think it's almost a, a fulcrum moment than the sermon. And then he goes back to Abraham and finishes with Abraham and that's the Trump card and a Jewish conversation. 

[00:10:27] You put Abraham on the table and everybody's going to pay attention. So it's a super. Sermon that draws. A Jewish audience into the messiahship of Jesus through the journey of the nation and through some of the greatest people within that nation. And, and therefore it's, it's little wonder that they, that they listen. 

[00:10:51] So attentively to what Peter has to say in this context. And, and, and I do, I do think of course, Peter probably is playing off something different, in, in his first sermon, he's, he's responding to the filling of the spirit and therefore has to explain that and then move on. Whereas here, off the back of a miracle, I think there's probably. 

[00:11:15] An openness and a softness to potentially what he's gonna say in the light of a guy that we've all seen every day begging and he's jumping around like, like a crazy horse. So, so you, Peter takes full advantage of that, but it's a magnificent, magnificent sermon. 

[00:11:31] David: And, and even the, the connection we talked about in the last episode, and we even see it in act 2 42 sort of section of, of act chapter two, the return to the Abrahamic promise to me is. Is quite powerful as well at keeping it within the people of Israel. This is not, actually this is what we've always thought was gonna happen. 

[00:12:00] That all. Through our offspring, all people in the earth will be blessed and, and, and you can't help, but think that this conversation is happening with, I mean, if you take the text at its, at its literal sense, the, the man appears to be clinging to Peter. Right? So, so Peter, Peter, and John, this man's hanging onto them while Peter says through your off. 

[00:12:23] All peoples of the earth will, will be blessed. It's his use of, of, of very significant moments of scripture to actually explain the particular moment they're in is a little feature that, that Peter does, which again, to me, speaks to his deep knowledge of scripture, that he can, he can sit in a moment and say, oh, this is that. 

[00:12:46] And, and, and let me just bring. The whole story and point that out to you citing, as you say, key, key texts. 

[00:12:55] John: Yes. Yes, absolutely. And, and I do, I, I do love the, the sort of, the little concluding part of that verse 26. He said, God, when God raised up his servant, speaking of Jesus, he sent him first to you. To bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways. And that is, that is again a pattern, that, that the church tries to remain deeply faithful to in the book of acts, they try to go first to the lawsuit of the house of Israel. 

[00:13:23] They try first to allow this message to be heard by local synagogue communities or local Jewish communities. And, and Peter here in, in the context of the temple court, he said, it has come first to you now, now, what are you going to do about this? What are you going to do with this? And again, I, I think that reinforces the idea that that far from this Spain, an anti-Jewish diet tribe, this is, this is Peter desperately train to bring his people into this amazing message and this amazing mess. 

[00:13:54] Who's just healed this man in front of them. So, so it's a, it's a, it's a beautiful reminder of the, of the power of that. 

[00:14:01] David: Absolutely. And, and I think that. That's an act theme then we're actually seeing, as you say it and, and, and a theme that even, I think you see, I think you see that theme then beginning to make space in in Paul's work as well of, of, of this, this desire. To, to this desire to see the people from whom the Messiah came to recognize him as the Messiah. 

[00:14:26] And, and I think before we're too harsh perhaps on, on the people around the earlier apostles, it's worth noting that. Messianic pretenders were a very common thing around the time of Jesus. You see that in Gama Lay's speech, don't you, it's there's always this possibility that there's, , there's somebody pretending to be the Messiah. 

[00:14:52] So it's not uncommon to go. Well, well, let's just hold on for a second. Before we all go get ourself killed following yet another fake Messiah. And I think that's, to me. The significance of Stevens. This is that sermons because he's pointing out. Yeah. But there's some stuff happening here. That's, undeniable, this man used to be able, used to not be able to walk and now he can walk. 

[00:15:18] It seems like, yeah. Do you hear what I'm saying? I don't want to push too hard against the, the caution around accepting a Messiah. 

[00:15:27] John: Yeah. Yeah, completely, completely. And, and again, these, these signs, so Peter's sermon. This second sermon has now come off the back of another sign. These in, in, in Peter's first sermon, he talked about the signs and wonders that Jesus performed that were. A means of accrediting him as the Messiah. 

[00:15:48] And, and here's another sign that allows a platform for people to hear again in this message. Maybe, maybe some have. Have come in contact with the followers of the way, maybe this conversation starting to break out around the temple and around community groups and conversations. But of course, when you're speaking off the back of a miracle you're not so much speaking against something. 

[00:16:13] You're now speaking for something you're, you're, you're speaking into something deeply positive that only the hardest hearts or the most cynical person. Would sort of close themselves down to. And so, and so Peter is using these signs that the outpouring of the spirit as, as an, a tester and affirmer of this work of Messiah, and now the healing of this man as an accreditation, not only now to the Messiah Jesus, but to the community that follows him, the, the, the people of the. 

[00:16:44] So, so yeah, it's, it's I, I, I think these are important little things to remember, and I, and, and remember that, that the culture of Peter would've been very polarized, very divided expectations of Messiah, all loaded with political ideas and a whole new way of thinking. And a whole new way of behaving is being shape. 

[00:17:05] By this new community. So not an easy task at all. In the context of what they're trying to achieve. 

[00:17:10] David: And it's interesting how the, narrative of the sermon speaks into Jesus and, and his resurrection. And, and I love this sort of contrast there, but how we've got a man who has been, who has been raised at some level. If, if you go back to, to. To verse seven, he, Peter takes him by the hand and raised him up. 

[00:17:33] And there's, there's a potentially just a little nuance there of, of the raising up of this man. And then a sermon about, about how you rejected the holy one, and killed the author of life, whom God raised from the dead. And to this, we are the witnesses. So there's almost this contrast that Peter's playing where you are, the witnesses. 

[00:17:55] To the raising of this man who cannot walk, but I am a witness to the raising of the author of life, who you attempted to kill. It's it's quite a, it's quite a clever little rhetorical play that he makes there to, to get to his point. 

[00:18:10] John: Yeah. Brilliant. Beautiful. And, and and, and again, I, I, I love then sort of this sense that, that he moves from that in, into this appeal based on not just what they're seeing, not just what Peter has claimed to see, but now he says Moses saw this. 

[00:18:32] David: Mm. 
 

[00:18:33] John: Samuel saw this. He Abraham saw this, Isaac saw this, Jacob saw this, he, he's now appealing. 

[00:18:40] We, we had this conversation on our last podcast about seeing stuff, but, but you know, he's now appealing to them and he's saying actually, Moses sort of foresaw this prophet who would rise up. As did Samuel and the other prophets. So I, I, it's a very, very clever thing that Peter's doing. He's not just relying solely on this miracle as the basis of either convincing people or trying to let me be careful what I say, trying to manipulate them. 

[00:19:11] But he goes from the miracle of this man being raised, the miracle of Jesus being raised from the dead to the, to. The, the veracity of the word of God, their word, the Hebrew Bible, which then backs up that they saw this. And therefore what we are now seeing is the outworking of what they saw all those years ago. 

[00:19:34] So it's, it's a brilliant, it's a brilliant piece of work. Bringing, bringing the argument back to solid foundation that that crowd could go. Think about, and not just my goodness among God healed. But, but, but actually Peter claims that what we saw today is the evidence that Jesus is Messiah. 

[00:19:54] David: What is interesting as, as well is, is the, the lens of Jesus and how it rewrites history. Which I, and I'm, I wanna be cautious with my language there so that, but, but the way that Peter tells the story, I think Almost gives us an insight into how Christians preach and how Christians tell stories. 

[00:20:18] Because I, I, I do think of act as it is both the story of the early church and a guide to the, to the church. It is, it is showing us how to be so, so here. Peter takes this story of, of us and he's pointing it constantly to Jesus, right? So this is about Jesus. This is about Jesus, all this story. 

[00:20:39] So, and, and even some of the rhetorics, very clever when he quotes Moses, raise up from you from your own people are profit. Like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. So he's even inserting himself somehow into, being the person. But. I was sort of drawn by this notion that this is the second recorded sermon of the church. 

[00:21:01] So how is this shaping how we talk essentially the whole story points towards Jesus, but. This is what I'm trying to say. It's interesting that this model carries through so that you jump forward to, months from where we'll be in the podcast, but to Paul in chapter 17 in Athens notice, Paul does exactly the same thing in Athens as what do you. 

[00:21:29] As Peter does here at the gate, beautiful. Peter takes the story. That's familiar to everybody there and points out. He is pointing to Jesus. Paul gets up in Athens and takes some, idols that he saw in the, in the, in the courtyard. He takes poems from. Their background and says, oh, by the way, these are all about Jesus. 

[00:21:52] Right. And so we, I mean, I grew up singing a song and him, we live and move and have our being right. I won't sing it for you. Don't worry. But the fact that I was in my, I was in my twenties as a seminary student, when I realized in him we live and move. Our however being is a poem about Zeus. 

[00:22:08] Right. and, and Paul takes this poem about Zeus and says, oh, That too is actually about Jesus. Right. So, but think about this as a powerful model for how we tell stories as Christians today, can we take any story and show how actually this story is attempting to point at Jesus? Right. Now there's the obvious stories, CS Lucy's Chronicles of Narnia, right. 

[00:22:33] But it's almost as if the early Christians believe that. So central as Jesus to the world, Any story will eventually draw you to him. Even if that story had no intention of doing this, that, that, that, that let, I'm gonna write a poem about Zeus and Paul can come along and go, well, it's not actually about Zeus now, but I am gonna show you that, that, that actually the poem is speaking the truth. 

[00:22:57] If you make it about Jesus and I find that it might sound controversial, but I think found it quite exciting how grand their vision of Jesus was. 

[00:23:09] John: Yes. Yes. It's fascinating. And yeah, I, I mean, I, I, that, that really has made me think in, in terms of that sort of wider conversation, how, how Paul uses that. But, but I suppose it's inevitable. So wherever we land on that and whatever we conclude about that, it is inevitable that once you become saturated in a Jesus conversation, it, it is, it is easier to see. 

[00:23:34] In places that you would've never considered him before. And so, so like Paul in his own life, when he, when he becomes a follower of Jesus, he writes to the church at gala to the Galatians. And he, he says, I've set. 

[00:23:51] From my mother's womb. You know you now, now that's I, I would argue that's one of those, one of those cases, you're you're describing at least on the surface, on the fringe of it. That's that's Paul slightly rewriting history. That's Paul going set apart now, technically speaking, of course we could argue Paul was living a life. 

[00:24:11] Something else now, he, he thought he was serving the one true. God ended up fighting against Jesus, but then when he meets Jesus and he looks back in his life, he goes, oh yeah, that all connects together. That all makes sense. I understand. He was in all of that, Joseph. Looks back and says to his brothers, you sold me, but God sent me. 

[00:24:31] And that narrative becomes the driving narrative of history that as the Salma said, Joseph sent by God sold as a slave. Well, actually he was sold. And then later on. It's Jacob who it's Joseph, who interprets the idea of, of Sandy, cuz it's cause quite striking. And in Joseph's like Genesis 37, there's not a single reference to God. 

[00:24:52] But when Joseph talks about it in chapter 45, God's all all over the story. Now, if you read the story in 37 you're you're you're, you're implying God's in. You read the story from 45, God's everywhere in it. And the difference is how Joseph is now interpreting the story. So I, I, I absolutely, you, you made my head melt a little bit there and I'm sort of would go, okay, where where's that going? 

[00:25:16] But actually there's a sense in which we can see that conversation happening in so many different ways throughout the biblical text were someone through the lens of God's redemptive, grace and mercy. Is able to read a story or read history or read something in a different way that might be expected because of this, this Jesus land. 

[00:25:38] So it's a fascinating idea, David. That's absolutely incredible. Really? 

[00:25:43] David: Well, and, and now, again, going back to amaz that is what Jesus models first I'm gonna tell you the story, but me in the story. So at the risk of sounding slightly controversial, then I, I wonder about how that even affects how we think about kind of missiology about how we do mission as the church. 

[00:26:01] That so often what we've done is we. We go to a different people group and we say, no, get rid of all of your stories. We're gonna now tell you our story. And our story now has to become your story. Not realizing that we are a bunch of British people. telling a story of Israeli people. Right. That, that came to us via Roman people. 

[00:26:26] Right. So, so. What is, so I was thinking I have a, I have a friend over here in Canada who is is, is helping me understand the sort of indigenous history of, of, of Canada. Right? And, and she, she says the, what often gets missed in the story and telling is when the early. Settlers moved to Canada and met indigenous people. 

[00:26:49] And the early settlers were Christians and, and they started to tell stories about God as creator and, and, and Jesus as his son. She said, if you read the, the earliest stories, the indigenous people had no problem with this story, cuz they said, oh wait, well we know that there is a creator. So we're interested to hear. 

[00:27:07] This Jesus, somewhere in the process, this storytelling completely fell apart and it became the settlers trying to eradicate the indigenous history and create a, a quote unquote Christian history in Canada. But in the earliest story, there was this opportunity to say, to, I think, to, to do what. To do what you see the early church doing is, well, let's ask, hear your stories and then we'll try and help you see where Jesus is in this story. 

[00:27:34] That Jesus, if we really believe that he is creator God, right? Which the Bible seems to be at pains to tell us, then we should expect that, that he is everywhere. Right? And, and I'm not pushing for some sort of Universalist idea of religion when I say this, but notice what Paul's doing in Athens. He. You said this about Zeus, but I'm gonna say actually, if you really listen to it, it's trying to point you to Jesus because of course, he does Paul wouldn't accept Zeus as, as a power. 

[00:28:02] And, and I think there's something challenging for all of us as Christians there to say, what are the stories that you are part of? And even as Westerners, perhaps as our story is becoming increasingly less Christian, how. How are the stories now being told, how, how is the story of our, of our lives now being unpacked? 

[00:28:24] And where do we, let me ask him better? Like this, John is the role of the church sometimes to point out where Jesus already is. Right. And yeah, let me just hold that there and let you respond. But I, I just wonder about that, you 

[00:28:39] John: It's a great, it's a great thought, David. And of course it's, it, it, it does it challenges then our approach to people that we're not. And certainly, I know you're not saying this, we're not in any way, compromising the integrity of the Christian message or the message of Jesus as savior in Messiah. 

[00:28:58] But, but you're saying we we're, we're not setting ourselves up. As a a a from an argumentative point of view, it's more well, if we, if we believe that Jesus is, is truly saturating the universe, that he is the creator and sustainer of all things, then there, there is a way of understanding someone's story and perhaps helping them to see Jesus in or around that story. 

[00:29:24] And that is a, and that. Phenomenal idea for us to consider because then in our approach to people, we, we start from a completely different perspective, maybe a much more humble perspective, maybe a much more gracious perspective, maybe a much more engaging perspective that actually allows us to create an opportunity for a conversation. 

[00:29:48] It may not otherwise be possible. And without slipping into some sort of sense of all, all things are the same or all roads lead to the same direction we're saying, well, no, no, actually this is about, this is about Jesus and Jesus ultimately can bring fulfillment to your story and make your story absolutely connect and, and And blossom as it were. 

[00:30:12] So, yeah. Fascinating idea. I, I mean, it really, really is. It's it's got me thinking just as you've been talking, I thought, wow. Yeah. Is, is that something we need to be more considerate of as we reflect and, and how Peter and Paul and the early church try to engage with the story of those around them? 

[00:30:29] David: Hmm. And, and I think, like, let me just use a, a, a very brief example, John, the sort of thing that I even have in mind, if you've been involved in the church for, 30, 40 years, through the eighties and the nineties, you think about how the, the, the kind of way of talking about Jesus was definitely focused on you. 

[00:30:49] Somebody might realize that they are cut off from God. Somebody might struggle with their behavior and I'm gonna come along and tell you how Jesus can help you with that. Right? Well, the narrative of sin as a debate is not one that really happens in the public forum anymore. And so therefore what I hear quite regularly from people is, well, nobody wants to talk about sin anymore, except for what I notice in society is, is that P the public discourse is always about sin, right? 

[00:31:19] It's just, we don't use that language. Right. So we now talk about environmentalism, for example, like you can pick up a conversation with anybody in any bar in the world about. How have we broken the world or have we broken the world? Well, the Bible has a lot to say, and Jesus has a lot to say about that. 

[00:31:38] Look at all of the scandals that are facing, the world of, we've had the me too movement. These are all public dis discourses about sin, right? They're just, they don't, they're not called that way. I think if Paul was in these conversations, he'd be sat going. He wouldn't be sat going, oh my goodness. 

[00:31:55] They're not talking about the right thing. I think he'd be sat going. How do I take a conversation about environmentalism and show? Well, Jesus is interested and present in this. How does Jesus fit into the me too movement? How does Jesus, what is Jesus saying about black lives matter? What is Jesus saying about political scandals? 

[00:32:13] The divide of left and right. And too often, I think we go well until the debate comes to where we are comfortable talking about it. We have nothing to say. We're just gonna bang pulpits. Whereas I feel what you see in acts is that the, the early Christians go, oh, this is the situation we're in. And this is what everyone's talking about. 

[00:32:32] I can take this situation and talk about Jesus. Right. And does that unpack a little bit more of 

[00:32:37] John: Oh, so that's very 

[00:32:38] David: at? 
 

[00:32:38] John: Yeah, absolutely. That's very good. And, and it's that sense of, creating, I suppose, bridges and connectors to, to people's worlds and conversations, not expecting in, in the simplest sense. I suppose my simplistic understanding and response would be not expecting them to simply come to where I am or embrace my story as the narrative. 

[00:33:00] But actually there's something beholden on me to listen to their story and seek to engage the Jesus that I believe is the creator and sustainer and savior of the world into that story. And, and perhaps that would create more opportunities for us within the, the conversations of our world were. 

[00:33:20] Where actually people need to hear this beautiful message about Jesus, but of course their story is very different from our story and it's finding ways to connect those two together. So yeah, absolutely fascinating. 

[00:33:34] David: I, I, I had a friend once that, well, he, who is now a friend and but I met a person once and they discovered very briefly into our meeting that. I was a pastor and they said to me, they said to me, well, I don't wanna talk about anything religious . And I said, well, that's that's okay. I said, that's totally fine. 

[00:33:53] And then after a few moments of conversation, they, they looked at me and they said, but you know, the thing is, they said, I just want my life to have meaning. Do, do you, do you know what I mean by that? and I asked them, I said, well, well, how do you want me to respond to that? because how I might understand how I might explain why I think you want, meaning might sound like I'm gonna talk about religious things. 

[00:34:19] John: Absolutely. No, it's so true. It's so true. And I, and I think I, I loved your reflection that, that the world may not use language that biblically we understand, but that's what they're talking about. And we, as the church need to be more intelligent. No, in our last podcast, we talked about seeing our world and letting our world see us. 

[00:34:39] And maybe, maybe within this context, In Peter sermon in the, in the temple, we need to be able to hear our world so that they can hear us. We, we need to be able, well, what are they actually saying instead of reacting against what we think they should be saying, what is it they're saying? And can we somehow in grace in truth, connect with that conversation. 

[00:35:02] And perhaps like Peter did at the temple courts, lead them towards Jesus. 

[00:35:07] David: Mm. And I, I mean, perhaps this is kind of closing thought, which I'll give to somebody else, but an author and pastor that I, I really am fond of. The moment, rich ES in New York, he's just brought out his second book, which is called good and beautiful and kind right. But he begins the book with a conversation about sin actually. 

[00:35:29] And, and, and he says, he says the same thing, sin, what an uncomfortable word nowadays. But he then starts to define sin as a failure to. Right. And which I actually think is profound, that, that can I engage anybody in a conversation about sin on the subway? Probably not. Right, but, but there, but most of us are aware of the fact that a lot of our problems in the world come down to. 

[00:35:56] Somebody is failing to love. Well, somewhere in that process. And I would say you could discuss all of the big controversies, the polarization around politics, abortion law is a big thing in north America at the moment. The Ukrainian conflict, the environment, they're all somewhere. 

[00:36:14] We're not loving well. Right. Now the biblical language would be, well, these are all sins, right? But what if we change the demo and this is maybe another example of what I'm saying is I think views does that well, but what are we actually talking about? And is it, is it beholden upon the church to find the language that points us to Jesus? 

[00:36:34] And I think that's what Peter is doing. And I think that's what we should, even if we're just sat across the office desk from a friend, that's the sort of thing that we should be wrestling with and thinking. 

[00:36:45] John: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And ultimately, as you and I have discussed many times and our lives have reflected on, the, the magnificence of Jesus is, is for us the key that can and does change everything as it did in the life of this man, as it may have done in the lives of many of the people listened to Peter sermon. 

[00:37:05] But of course the, the challenge. Allowing a world to have a conversation, a meaningful conversation about Jesus. I I've said it many times. I, I, I don't think people in my country are like just getting up every day, rejecting Jesus. I think most people in my country have never really met Jesus or heard of the Jesus that we talk about me and you and love so much. 

[00:37:33] And, and I think if they met that Jesus. Through a church that is filled with grace and truth, then, then okay. If they reject, they reject, but, but maybe, maybe there would be more acceptance in him than rejection. If we could somehow bridge the gaps and create those conversations.